Category talk:Unami language
The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for moves, mergers and splits.
This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.
We currently have codes for the (macro)language {{del}} "Delaware, Lenape" and for the (dia)lects {{unm}} "Unami" {{umu}} "Munsee". Merging unm and umu into del could make it 'neater' and easier to have entries in the lect(s), since secondary sources often do not distinguish them and even primary sources can be hard to 'assign' to one lect or the other. On the other hand, there are perceptible differences in vocabulary between the two lects, which are said to make it hard for speakers of one to understand the other; the differences are probably at least as great as those between Scots and English, which suggests a split could also have merit. But the current situation is just confusing. - -sche (discuss) 21:51, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
- If we are going to have place names with etymologies from my neck of the woods (NY, CT, NJ), we would benefit from as much distinction as possible. The place names tend to be reasonably clearly associated with specific dialects. But much could be accomplished with tags and a single more inclusive language family. DCDuring TALK 23:04, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
- Even with placenames, caution is needed: words that entered other languages (e.g. Pidgin or English) in—or were recorded by visitors to—places deep in one dialect's supposed territory have often been shown to belong to the other dialect; placenames may have similarly muddled origins (especially considering the possibility that the territory on which a town sits may have changed hands but not names). - -sche (discuss) 02:49, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
- I don't doubt you. There are actually only half a dozen names of inhabited places in my county, Westchester, that are native American in origin, almost certainly Munsee. Similarly for western Long Island and Northern New Jersey. In some cases English toponyms are after the name of a chief or tribe rather than being descendants of native toponyms. The Dutch and English settlers didn't waste a lot of time on documenting much about the natives and their language and didn't use their placenames very much. DCDuring TALK 03:52, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
- Even with placenames, caution is needed: words that entered other languages (e.g. Pidgin or English) in—or were recorded by visitors to—places deep in one dialect's supposed territory have often been shown to belong to the other dialect; placenames may have similarly muddled origins (especially considering the possibility that the territory on which a town sits may have changed hands but not names). - -sche (discuss) 02:49, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
- If anyone tries to do a more thorough treatment of either sub-lect than just some nouns for etymologies, I suspect that not having those templates will be a major obstacle, since there are significant grammatical and lexical differences between the two. In other words, a single code won't work if we treat them as actual languages instead of etymology source-material. There are, in fact sufficient materials for both lects to allow creation of full-fledged creation of entries with all the parts of speech, etc. All it would take would be either a student of a given language, or someone interested in the language with a decent background in Linguistics. I'm just getting started doing exactly that with California Indian languages, but who's to say there might not be a potential East-coast counterpart out there somewhere? Chuck Entz (talk) 04:33, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
- Oh, I've already been dealing with Algonquian. Almost every del/unm/umu entry we have was created by me—and created as a ==Lenape== entry; the only entry we have in either (dia)lect is homographic with a Lenape entry. That said, I'm willing to separate unm vs umu, like Scots vs English and Dutch Low Saxon vs German Low German... I just want to be clear that doing so is going to be complicated (like Scots vs English and DLS vs GLG, lol). - -sche (discuss) 05:41, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
- OK, when I have time, I'll start to (cautiously) make this split. - -sche (discuss) 21:38, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
- I haven't forgot about this. - -sche (discuss) 22:10, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- (still haven't) - -sche (discuss) 20:49, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- I haven't forgot about this. - -sche (discuss) 22:10, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- OK, when I have time, I'll start to (cautiously) make this split. - -sche (discuss) 21:38, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
- Oh, I've already been dealing with Algonquian. Almost every del/unm/umu entry we have was created by me—and created as a ==Lenape== entry; the only entry we have in either (dia)lect is homographic with a Lenape entry. That said, I'm willing to separate unm vs umu, like Scots vs English and Dutch Low Saxon vs German Low German... I just want to be clear that doing so is going to be complicated (like Scots vs English and DLS vs GLG, lol). - -sche (discuss) 05:41, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
- I've moved all the del entries to unm, and made etyl:del an etymology template for terms which derive from Lenape without the specific lect being clear. - -sche (discuss) 21:57, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
How do you add etymologies derived from the same language?
I want to add the etymology of the Lenape term Kawënshuwik “honey locust”;“Gleditsia Tricanthos.” The term derived from the lenape word Kawënsh, meaning “thorn”, which is probably related to the words “Kawe” meaning quill and Kine, meaning “it is sharp.” The word Kawënshuwik is, I believe, the adjectival form of Kawënsh, (kawënshuwi) which would mean “thorny”, with a conjunct ending, which would mean “the thorny one”, “that which is thorny.” If you’ve ever seen a honey locust, you’d know that there is a lot of truth in that etymology. I do not know how to add an etymology from the same language as the entry. Can anybody help me? Hk5183 (talk) 18:52, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
- honey locust (Gleditsia triacanthos): For the etymology of kawënshuwik, I think you could use this: From Unami kawënsh (“thorn”). Compare kawe (“quill”) and kine (“it is sharp”). —Stephen (Talk) 12:49, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- By the way, sorry for the slow answer. Here on Wiktionary, the talk pages of individual entries tend to get ignored by most of us. You would do better to ask questions such as this at WT:BP (Beer Parlour). —Stephen (Talk) 12:53, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
{{etyl}}is deprecated, you shouldn't use it. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 12:58, 5 March 2018 (UTC)- But there does not seem to be another equivalent to etyl. Instead, there are borrowings, inheritances, loans, and I don't know how many others. In the majority of cases, I can't tell one from another. If I don't use etyl, I can't add etymologies even though I know the etymons. —Stephen (Talk) 16:47, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- Sorry, I hadn't seen your answer here. I've posted on your talkpage instead. The equivalent is
{{der}}. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 16:52, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- Sorry, I hadn't seen your answer here. I've posted on your talkpage instead. The equivalent is
- But there does not seem to be another equivalent to etyl. Instead, there are borrowings, inheritances, loans, and I don't know how many others. In the majority of cases, I can't tell one from another. If I don't use etyl, I can't add etymologies even though I know the etymons. —Stephen (Talk) 16:47, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- By the way, sorry for the slow answer. Here on Wiktionary, the talk pages of individual entries tend to get ignored by most of us. You would do better to ask questions such as this at WT:BP (Beer Parlour). —Stephen (Talk) 12:53, 5 March 2018 (UTC)