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Urdu etymology
Latest comment: 4 months ago13 comments4 people in discussion
@Gotitbro: Urdu applies here, not "Hindustani". It's a courteous convention. Urdu for Pakistani places, Hindi for Indian places (except where the Urdu is reasonable). Platts attesting the name in both scripts doesn't automatically mean Hindi should be added here, and even if the name is specifically Punjabi (which is not clarified anywhere), it is likely that it was borrowed in English through Urdu, not directly, since Urdu is and historically has been undeniably the language used in official domains, not Punjabi. نعم البدل (talk) 13:59, 2 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
@نعم البدل: I am unfamiliar with that convention (having been here for quite sometime), if that has arisen through subsequent accepted edits I understand.
Nonetheless Punjabi shouldn't entirely be absent from the etymology (it is very likely that the Hindustani term is itself derives from Punjabi), it should be listed as either a possible derivation or at least as a comparitive. Also I don't think the references were doing any harm even if Hindustani is to be excluded from the etym. Hope these points can be incorporated.
I am unfamiliar with that convention (having been here for quite sometime), if that has arisen through subsequent accepted edits I understand. – I mean that has generally always been the case. Almost every single North Indian city has its etymology traced back to Hindi, even those names which are quite obviously Urdu in origin. The only Indian city that has its etymology as "Hindustani", is Delhi – and it was only after I disputed the etymology, that 'Hindustani' was included. If 'it is to be set as the precedent, then it should be set across the board, and not merely when it concerns names of Urdu origin.
Nonetheless Punjabi shouldn't entirely be absent from the etymology (it is very likely that the Hindustani term is itself derives from Punjabi – I didn't say the name in Urdu couldn't have itself come from Punjabi, but the name in English definitely came via Urdu. نعم البدل (talk) 14:21, 2 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
I agree with the first point, wikt has always treated Hindustani (Hindi-Urdu) like Serbo-Croatian (same lang but two scripts/registers) and places or geography should be no exception. I will help with that where I can if consensus is achieved, @نعم البدل, Svartava, Kutchkutch, AryamanA, Inqilābī: thoughts? (PS: Also what is the general order of scripts for Hindustani, it had been "Devanagari/Perso-Arabic" for quite some years, but the recent trends seem to reverse that. Is there a general consensus/acceptance for any of these or is it case by case?)
About the etym here: Yes, that is why it was disappointing to see no Punjabi in the etym (either comparitive/possible derivation). Do let me know if you have any objection if the possible derivation is added here and on the ur/hi entries. Gotitbro (talk) 14:48, 2 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Gotitbro, نعم البدل: Regarding the order - it is not fixed. Earlier, for convenience many editors showed Perso-Arabic before since it would not generate a translit, but the Devanagari would. Now that both generate the translit, I don't think it makes a difference. Regarding place names:
I support adding possible borrowing from Punjabi, which is possible through spoken. The English term being Lahore possibly implies some naturalization rather than a being just a transliteration.
Regarding Hindi/Urdu, maybe this would be acceptable to both of you: (I can understand that some might feel weird if Urdu is given as origin of श्रीनगर or vice-versa for some Pakistani city)
Indian city, Sanskritic origin -> Hindi
Pakistani city, Persianic origin -> Urdu
Indian city, Persianic origin or Pakistani city, Sanskritic origin -> Hindustani.
@نعم البدل: For Peshawar specifically, I think it is reasonable to just show Urdu, mostly because of the same reason that the Hindi term looks rather "adopted" (also since it might be influenced from English as you point out). The names I think for which Hindustani is reasonable are those like Delhi (if that is from Persian and not from देहली, I'm not completely aware of its etymology) and Multan.
It is possible the पेशावर is influenced by the English spelling, but I generally restrain from writing such speculations in our entries (with or without perhaps, possibly, etc.). पेशावर is also way more common than पिशावर but since both are corruption of Classical Persian, thus making neither of the two the more "etymological" form, it should be fine to lemmatize the more common form and have the other as an {{altform}}. Svartava (talk) 12:58, 3 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
The spelling पेशावर from English being more common than the Urdu pronunciation पिशावर might be because Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa is now quite distant to India both physically and culturally. Unlike the case with Lahore, Indians have fewer remaining ties to Peshawar. References to Peshawar in Hindi are probably limited to news, politics, geography or history.
References to Peshawar in Hindi are probably limited to news, politics, geography or history. – And likewise with Urdu in Pakistan and it often leads to major Urdu newsgroups butchering the spelling of some Indian states, because the author / editor is unfamiliar with the Urdu name. I've seen BBC Urdu spell Telangana as تیلَن٘گانا(telaṅgānā), instead of تِلَن٘گانَہ(tilaṅgāna). Lord knows how they manage with Tier-2 and Tier-3 cities. نعم البدل (talk) 08:47, 4 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
It's a courteous convention. Urdu for Pakistani places,
Although Hindi in Devanagari was probably used in some capacity in pre-partition Pakistan, it probably wasn’t used to the same extent as Urdu in the Perso-Arabic script. So, this convention is fine until a new convention is found. Finding a suitable replacement may be difficult.
It is true that
Urdu is and historically has been undeniably the language used in official domains, not Punjabi
Would the cities and towns in Sindh, Baluchistan and Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa also be borrowed from Urdu for the same reason rather than from Sindhi, Baluchi or Pashto? Kutchkutch (talk) 16:09, 2 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
it's unfortunate to see this edit war – a discussion has to begin from somewhere :) I mean, I'm asking for a consensus as well. I understand that the term Hindustani being applied to geographical places was possible, but just not the norm - like I say I've only seen it on certain places like Delhi; Ahmedabad and Jammu I think. Every other place in Northern India is sourced backed to Hindi and (to a lesser extent) Pakistani places to Urdu or the local language.
Would the cities and towns in Sindh, Baluchistan and Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa also be borrowed from Urdu for the same reason rather than from Sindhi, Baluchi or Pashto? I don't see why not. I recently removed Pashto from Peshawar, though I initially said it was a borrowing from Pashto, because the Pashto dialect spoken in Pashto call Peshawar pēxawar, which is a bit of a stretch to Peshawar. It's more likely that it was borrowed from Urdu پِشاوَر(piśāvar). The only alternative is if it was maybe borrowed by the Punjabic name piśaur, or the Pashto dialect spoken in Kabul (?) which pronounce it as pešawar, both of which I find unlikely. نعم البدل (talk) 18:10, 2 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
That being said I'm not completely ruling out direct borrowing from local languages. It is certainly possible for English to have direct borrowings provincial languages. What I don't really favour is sloppily adding "Hindustani" to every geographical location in the subcontinent. There are legitimate times when you do have to separate them, such as Srinagar, which I would believe to be directly from Hindi, and not Urdu or Kashmiri, which pronounce it as sirīnagar. نعم البدل (talk) 18:10, 2 September 2024 (UTC)Reply