Talk:Macedonian
I've removed "(most likely a Bulgarian dialect)" because there is no citation. -dcd
- I put back "(most likely a Bulgarian dialect)" because there are citations at the "external links" section. Kassios 18:51, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
No, modern Macedonian certainly is not a dialect of Bulgarian, and Ancient Macedonian isn't a dialect of Ancient Greek (that's just one of the highly speculative theories promoted chiefly by pan-Greek linguists, such as yourself). --Ivan Štambuk 02:18, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Oh, and how many words of this Ancient-Non-Greek-Macedonian do you happen to know? --flyax 14:22, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter, as the preserved evidence of Ancient Macedonian is not abundant enough for any reliable classification. In the light of Greek/Bulgarian cultural/territorial pretensions and propaganda over the centuries on Macedonian language/people (both pre and post-Slavic) and especially nowadays on Internet, I found such modifications done by a person with a history of dubious pro-Greek etymological contributions here on en.wikt quite biased, pushing non-mainstream POV.
- OTOH, there's a shitload of written evidence that "barbaric" Ancient Macedonian "dialect" was mutually unintelligible with AGr., the territory occupied by ethnically separate fair-haired blue-eyed Macedonains (ideal proto-Indo-Europeans, as opposed to dark Greeks ^_^) only gradually being hellenised over the centuries (the history repeated itself after the Balkan Wars in which Greek and Bulgaria partitioned Macedonia). Even today, as A. Shenker succintly puts it in his "The Dawn of Slavic" book, most Greeks have a hard time accepting the fact that the Old Church Slavonic, the first literary language of Slavs, is based on the native tongue of the nowadays second largest Greek city; there is even a sentence in Vita Constantini that literally translates as "everybody in Thessaloniki speaks Slavonic" ^_^.
- Look, I can't force you or anyone (not) to think of Ancient Macedonian of the only "Greek dialect" that had PIE bh dh gh reflected as b d g (just like all Slavic), or to force, for example, Buglarian linguists not to be the only ones in the world to use the brain-damaged term "Old Bulgarian" for OCS (funny, the Bulgarian of all Slavic languages retained the least of OCS complex morphosyntactial features, lost cases, dual, pitch accent..all the cool things ^_^), but pushing controversial claims that do not have mainstream acceptance is just not acceptable. --Ivan Štambuk 16:35, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
1.If the preserved evidence of Ancient Macedonian is not abundant enough for any reliable classification then how you make such classification. There are three sections : a.Palaeo-balkan language b. Hellenic (Greaco-Macedonian) group c. Greek dialect
and there are early non-Greek linguists like Hoffmann who have proposed a Greek dialect.
2.If you make personal attacks about Bulgarian propaganda what about the (in)famous Serbian propaganda in Macedonian question?
3.A dialect can be also unintelligible.No Athenian would understand easily a Mycenaean
4.There is not even one evidence about blue-eyed ancient Macedonians
and if you consider the Plutarch's description about the bastard Alexander enough, then think also of blond Menelaus in Iliad but also think that the term xanthos in Ancient Greek meant dark blond and not light blond
Aristotle who described the races saw no such difference On the contrary he pointed out about the red-haired Celts as Tacitus about Germans
5.b d with Greek words NOT slavic
and Slavs were described indeed as blond in Middle ages but modern Makedonskis are not
because there is a shitload of written evidence about the MEDIEVAL BULGARIANS in the region of Macedonia
See just the Bitola inscription Maqedonskata 11:31, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
About the Makedonskis as Bulgarian dialect
Here non-Bulgarian scholars Hugh Poulton
In Yugoslav Macedonia the new authorities quickly set about consolidating their position. The new nation needed a written language, and initially the spoken dialect of northern Macedonia was chosen as the basis for the Macedonian language. However, this was deemed too close to Serbian and the dialects of Bitola-Veles became the norm.(1) These dialects were closer to the literary language of Bulgaria but because the latter was based on the eastern Bulgarian dialects, it allowed enough differentiation for the Yugoslavs to claim it as a language distinct from Bulgarian-a point which Bulgaria has bitterly contested ever since(2). In fact the differentiation between the Macedonian and Bulgarian dialects becomes progressively less pronounced on an east-west basis. Macedonian shares nearly all the same distinct characteristics which separate Bulgarian from other Slav languages lack of cases, the post-positive definite article, replacement of the infinitive form, and preservation of the simple verbal forms for the past and imperfect tenses-but whether it is truly a different language from Bulgarian or merely a dialect of it is a moot point.The alphabet was accepted on 3 May 1945 and the orthography on 7 June 1945, and the first primer in the new language appeared by 1946, in which year a Macedonian Department in the Faculty of Philosophy at the University of Skopje was also founded.
A grammar of the Macedonian literary language appeared in 1952, and the Institute for the Macedonian Language “Krste P’ Misirkov” was founded the following year. Since the Second world ‘war the new republic has used the full weight of the education system and the bureaucracy to make the new language common parlance, and indeed it is noticeable that old people still tend to speak a mixture of dialects which include obvious Serbianisms and Bulgarianisms, while those young enough to have gone through the education system in its entirety speak_ a ‘purer’ Macedonian. Maqedonskata 11:39, 31 January 2008 (UTC) Hugh Poulton more in Europe Since 1945: An EncyclopediaBy Bernard Anthony Cook
Indeed, the macedonian language is a product essentialy of political origin
V. Pisani, “Il Macedonico”, in, “Paideia” 12 (1957), p.250.
“From a strictly linguistic point of view Macedonian can be called a Bulgarian dialect, as structurally it is most similar to Bulgarian.
— Encyclopedia of Language and Linguistics (1994) See also Britannica closely related to Bulgarian Maqedonskata 11:51, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- Well, I did read a shitload of literature on Macedonian/Bulgarian issue, and no one can deny Bulgarian linguists to call Macedonian a "Bulgarian dialect" (those two do form a dialect continuum to some extent), just as no one can deny them to call Old Church Slavonic "Old Bulgarian", or deny Polish linguists to call Kashubian a "Polish dialect", or Russian linguists calling pre-Petrine version of Russian (common to Russian/Ukrainian/Belarussian) "Old Russian" and Ukrainian linguists "Old Ukraininan" etc. I even get very pissed when see Germans calling Indo-European language family "Indo-Germanic" (indogermanische), but then again, all of it's is their ethnocentric propaganda.
- I'm aware that Lunt published the first grammar of Macedonian just about ~50 years ago, but look - Bosnian language was codified less then 15 years ago; does this fact invalidate rights to Bosniaks to their own standard language/literary language, which they were unable to do due to inadequate political climate in ex-Yugolavia(s) surrounding the question of the existence of their ethnos? I don't think so.
- Dbachmann of wikipedia lists this very issue as the first one in the lists of nationalism-inspired issues on WP. It's very unfortunate that the Ancient Macedonian and modern (Slavic-based) Macedonian are designated with the name. In Croatian we use "macedonski" and "makedonski" respectively. This gives rise both to potential misunderstandings and fuels the dispute over "who has the right to name Macedonia(n)". --Ivan Štambuk 12:08, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Well it's a matter of politics than strictly lingual one. If Sicilians decide to create a separate ethnos, their language will be politically independent as well but the past cannot be removed. Three last points
- 1.Early Macedonian immigrants in America who belonged to MPO considered and consider themselves Bulgarians
- 2.Macedonians of Pirin region consider also themselves Bulgarian
- 3.Ljubčo Georgievski ex-Prime minister of ROM has also pro-Bulgarian views.
Maqedonskata 12:22, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
It's true that such discussions are dangerous and delicate but if your first response in the page was NPOV and strictly scientific, there would be no continuation by me Maqedonskata 14:39, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
- I entirely forgot about this dispute. Is the new formulation "(historical) The name of a West-Bulgarian dialect prior to the codification of Macedonian standard language." acceptable by you? --Ivan Štambuk 14:43, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
It is more appropriate for a wikipedia article on Bulgarian-Macedonian dialectical continuum, since Wiktionary does not encourage long definitions. (Convinced) Maqedonskata 17:44, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
On the other hand the term "obsolete" you proposed could save the page from future disputes. Even the ones who think of Macedonian as Bulgarian dialect, they would understand that it is a past term (not in use after 1960/1990) Maqedonskata 18:07, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
- Done. Now that I think about it, there is lots of potential for disputes like in this in other languages as well (such as "Bosnian/Bosniak" that didn't exist up until 20 years ago, and moreover with the term Bosnian/Bosniak itself, whose modern usage is under the influence of Bosnian Muslims propaganda; see e.g. here for an overview if you're particularly interested ^_^). --Ivan Štambuk 19:06, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
- Thanx for the link. It's the multi-name Balkanians, see also Illyrian ,another "dangerous" term.
- As for Macedonian synonymous to Koine, you can remove it and I will try Macedonic Maqedonskata 06:40, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Ancient Macedonian Language-a distinc Indo-European language, Macedonia and Greece: Two Ancient and Separate Nations, John Shea 1997. P 23-35.
Macedonian
"The name of a West-Bulgarian dialect prior to the codification of Macedonian standard language." please list a credible source which stated this or it will be deleted. 71.238.156.242 05:57, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- Slavic language called (deprecated template usage) Macedonian was codified for the first time during the period of (second) Yugoslavia, it's first grammar being written by Horace G. Lunt in 1952. Prior to that, that meaning didn't exist at all. In almost all the sources before that (and some Bulgarian sources today), it's treated as a part of West-Bulgarian dialect continuum. See e.g. w:Macedonian_language#Alternative_names.
- What exactly is your problem with that definition line? --Ivan Štambuk 15:24, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
This entry has passed Wiktionary's verification process without prejudice.
This means that, while adequate citation may not have been recorded, discussion has concluded that usage is widespread and content is accurate
Please do not re-nominate for verification without comprehensive reasons for doing so. See Wiktionary’s criteria for inclusion
For the senses of:
- A contemporary and alternative name of Koine Greek.
- The West-Bulgarian dialect.
There were wikipedia-style references provided inline which I removed. The second sense is based on some silly interpretation from some German page which locates language of one of the texts of OCS canon (Codex Zographensis) corresponding it to dialect spoken (back then) in what is nowadays modern Macedonia and western Bulgaria, but the first one seems more puzzling. WP article on w:Koine Greek lists several names ("Other names are Alexandrian, Hellenistic, Common, or New Testament Greek."), none of which is 'Macedonian'. --Ivan Štambuk 17:01, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- The term Macedonian for Koine is ~ 3th.BC/3th AD contemporary and historically documented term (Athenaeus 3.122.a)-
Most of the other referred terms are actually Neologisms of Modern Ages
- Your first link, on the page just prior to the one you're linking, says that it was called: "common (koine), Hellenic and Macedonic" - note that it does not say 'Macedonian'. On the next page it's used synonymously with the phrase "Macedonian dialect". The second resource you're providing, as far as I can see, uses word 'Macedonian' and 'Macedonian dialect' in sense "Ancient Macedonian"; I can't see any other way to understand this snippet from page 436: Thus of the some 6300 texts which have been recovered to date in Macedonia, within the boundaries described in 1.1., perhaps 99% is written in Koine, with just a tiny minority written in the Macedonian dialect or that of the colonies. So how can it be that Koine=Macedonian when they are so clearly
distinguished here?
second link page 436c ..the term makedonizein meant to speak in Koine..the same word is described by Atticists as Macedonian or inferior, used by uneducated -Macedonian meant Koine in the so called Hellenistic period. It was the original name NOT Hellenistic NOT Alexandrian NOT New Testament.. is it so difficult? Maqedonskata 20:04, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- But makedonizein is not really English, is Ancient Greek, and not a noun, but a verb. What I'm RfV-ing here is not English "translation" of Ancient Greek noun in it's meaning attested 2k years ago, but of English word today. Of course, in lots of cases such "translations" end up as semantic borrowing, so the foreign-language term's meaning gets overloaded in that particular sense, but I have reason to believe this is not the case here, and that "Macedonian" was never used in anglophonic literature as a synonyms for Koine. Of course, I might be wrong, and would be glad to be proved unambiguously otherwise :) --Ivan Štambuk 22:31, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
With the same logic, Roman should not be referred as an alternative and contemporary name of Byzantine Maqedonskata 15:38, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- The important difference is that one can find plenty of evidence where (deprecated template usage) Roman is used in the sense of 'Byzantine', not mentioned as a translation of it's usage in another language. Here it appears that you're trying to push some obscure nowhere-to-be-found meanings of (deprecated template usage) Macedonian to lessen the importance of the most common of it's meaning today. --Ivan Štambuk 15:46, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
About the first link: it says both Macedonian and Macedonic just like one can say Macedonian and Makedonski for the modern Macedonian language.Maqedonskata 20:40, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- No, they're not necessarily the same. Your quote makes quite clear distinction, never speaking about "Macedonian" alone - it's either "Macedonian dialect" (=language of Ancient Macedons, it's meaning already present at (deprecated template usage) Macedonian), or "Macedonic". It would be good if the latter term was more popular, like in modern Croatian where we distinguish modern/ancient Macedonian as makedonski/macedonski respectively. Your assumption on what the author thinks is equivalent in meaning is not satisfactory argument. --Ivan Štambuk 22:31, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- 1. Macedonian dialect or common Macedonian dialect indeed means Koine language of Alexandria NOT XMK
please read it again page 152
- 2. He clearly mentions XMK as Ancient Macedonic in parallel to Macedonic (Koine) (page 151 see note on Macedonic)
- 3. Macedonic and Macedonian are different?? just see -> Polish, Croatian, Serbian and Macedonic poetry
is it the Ancient one??.. Maqedonskata 15:48, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- 1) In that sentence, "Macedonian" is used attributively (as an adjective), meaning "dialect of Macedons", and may I remind you that we're discussing noun sense here, and solely noun sense. You still haven't provided any evidence where 'Macedonian' is used as an unambiguous synonyms for Koine in English language.
- 2) You're 1) citing the term 'Macedonic' 2) presuming it's synonymous to 'Macedonian' and then decide to use it as a basis for verification of 'Macedonian'. Not gonna work. Try building Macedonic.
- 3) Their meanings could overlap, since they both have multiple meanings. That doesn't mean that they're completely synonymous. Your again making logical fallacy by extrapolating submeaning ('Macedonic' designating Slavic language in your quote) and then applying it to 'Macedonic=Macedonian' logic of Greek Koine. Not gonna work. --Ivan Štambuk 16:29, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- Makedonien - Der Text stammt aus dem westbulgarischen (makedonischen) Raum Maqedonskata 18:05, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- Can you explain how exactly does that particular sentence interpret the word 'Macedonian' meaning 'West-Bulgarian dialect' ? As I remarked on your talk page, it says that the language of the text written in Old Church Slavonic a millennium ago dialectally corresponds "to the area of West Bulgaria (Macedonia)". Do you have any contemporary resource on Slavic dialectology that uses the term 'Macedonian' in sense of 'West Bulgarian dialect', apart from those written by Bulgarian lingusits? --Ivan Štambuk 19:26, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- Bulgarian and its Macedonian dialects
Congress of Arts and Science: Universal Exposition, St. Louis, 1904 - Page 521 by Howard Jason Rogers, Hugo Münsterburg Maqedonskata 19:00, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- Obsolete. Anything newer, say in the last 20 years, written by a Westerner? Need I to cite my own resources elucidating such propaganda? --Ivan Štambuk 19:26, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- mid.19th / Quote/ Partenij Zografski was probably the first one to question this assumption (the establishment of East-Bulgarian dialect as Bulgarian language) He decided to promote the cause of Macedonian dialect as the one better suited as a common Bulgarian language
Discourses of Collective Identity in Central and Southeast Europe (2006) By Balázs Trencsényi and Michal Kopeček Maqedonskata 19:32, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- Here it is also used exclusively inside the phrase 'Macedonian dialect', meaning "dialect spoken in Macedonia". Since Macedonian and Bulgarian form dialect continuum, and the Macedonian was the last Slavic language to be codified (just ~50 years ago; the first grammar written by an American - what an embarrass for Slavistics ^_^), it's reasonably to speak about it as a dialect. What you're doing here is extrapolating this sense out of context, speaking of 'Macedonian' as a standard name for dialects spoken in Western Bulgaria. I highly doubt that that's the name in standard reference literature (either Bulgarian or Western), or that any Bulgarian living there would say that he speaks "Macedonian dialect of Bulgarian language" :) --Ivan Štambuk 22:31, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- Partenij Zografski clearly mentions Macedonian dialect of Bulgarian language. There are numerous examples of people who declared
and declared as Macedonians meaning Bulgarian. Just see this http://www.macedonian.org/ and it was founded by Macedonian diaspora in early 1900s Maqedonskata 16:07, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- Some nationalist pro-Bulgarian movement site? A sentence from your second link: The MPO, which publishes the weekly 'Macedonian tribune' claims that all Macedonians are Bulgarians and supports the idea of a united and independent Macedonia made up of parts of present-day Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and Greece. So you're trying to incorporate a definition of some minority nationalistic stance. Imagine would it would look like if I put into the definition of Earth a line which says "central point in Universe created by Allmighty, around which stars and Sun rotate", defending it with some stupid modern geocentrism religion? --Ivan Štambuk 16:36, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
You just asked if there are Bulgarians who declare their identity as Macedonian ....you want more?? ..Major figures of Macedonians who felt and feel Pro-bulgarian?? Ljubčo Georgievski 4 years Prime Minister of RoM Maqedonskata 17:52, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- How some Bulgarian political fractions declare themselves is totally irrelevant to this discussion. Please keep politics out of this. --Ivan Štambuk 18:07, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Like it or not they declare Macedonians as proper noun Maqedonskata 18:24, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
You have missed the point: We don't talk here about OCS and if Macedonian is a Bulgarian dialect but just simply if Bulgarian language has Macedonian dialects Maqedonskata 19:35, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- No, this is not the point. The question is Is the English word Macedonian used with this meaning (considered as distinct from the first sense)?. The question of Macedonian/West Bulgarian is so sensitive in both countries that I first felt that it could be a political edit, but the objective would not be clear. Lmaltier 22:05, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes it is used and has been used in the past in various and different definitions Maqedonskata 16:12, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well, the text you're quoting is directly about OCS text, and taking that sentence diachronically out of context would be a logical fallacy. I've read on several places (university books written in English) that Bulgarian linguist call Macedonian their dialect. However, the rest of the world might not share that particular opinion. I'll dig up more on this issue tomorrow and promise to return here. --Ivan Štambuk 22:31, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- Western Bulgarian/Macedonian: It has indeed been regarded by some (including non-Bulgarian scholars) as Bulgarian dialect
Encyclopedia of the Languages of Europe By Glanville Price 1998 Maqedonskata 21:56, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- Than why doesn't on page 45 in the separations list of 2 Bulgarian dialects says just "western Bulgarian", not "Western Bulgarian aka Macedonian" ?
- apart from linguistics the terms WEST BULGARIAN/MACEDONIAN are connected in various ways
Final defeat of the western Bulgarian, or Macedonian, realm under Samuel (Samuil) by the Byzantine Emperor, Basil II.by 3 different western books 1992,2001,2002 Maqedonskata 21:48, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- The beginning of 11th century? Macedonian/Bulgarian are intelligible today, what do you think the differences would be 1000 years ago? :) Those quotations you're providing refer to different times. --Ivan Štambuk 22:31, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
it's not about linguistics here but Macedonian as term for the Medieval Bulgarian empire ..btw this idea of a separate West Bulgarian kingdom of Samuil started in Yugoslavia and as you see it is used now by western scholars after 1990 Maqedonskata 16:23, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- The sense in dispute is "The West-Bulgarian dialect." How can this possibly not be a question of linguistics?? It doesn't matter if 1) there is non-mainstream view of people who classify modern Slavic Macedonian as a "West Bulgarian" dialect 2) Slavic Macedonian language was being referred to as "West Bulgarian" dialect prior to formation of the Republic of Macedonia and it's codification. Please don't mix usages of terms diachronically. If indeed "Macedonian" is modern term in English language for a branch of West Bulgarian dialect (beside denoting codified language of the Republic of Macedonia), than I'm sure it'll be trivial to find such references. This short out-of-context quotations from non-linguistic literature are barely any evidence at all. --Ivan Štambuk 17:11, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
OK as you agree that it was used in the past, the term historical can be added to West Bulgarian dialect Maqedonskata 17:44, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- More appropriate would be (deprecated template usage) obsolete. --Ivan Štambuk 18:07, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- No problem for obsolete and more scientific would be the period of usage to be mentioned Maqedonskata 18:20, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- Resolved without citations DCDuring TALK 20:55, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
of the Rep. of. M / of FYROM
I exhort all editors to adhere to the FYROM terminology, since this is the official, accepted (preliminarily, but anyway accepted) by the UN name of this country. Rep. of M. is a designation which is highly offensive to any citizen of the Hellenic Republic and many other countries which support it in this issue and thence irredentistic and POV. FYROM is not the proposed Greek name of the country, but the UN name and cannot be considered POV. The Greek name, whose use is also to be discouraged together with and in the same degree as Rep. of M. is Republic of Skopje. Let's stick to aurea mediocritas and not show predilection for any of the quarrelling sides in order to preserve the objectivity. Bogorm 12:34, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
- And the name "FYROM" is even more offensive to Macedonians and can hardly be considered NPOV either.. How about putting those two in the same line as "Republic of Macedonia, also known as Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" ? One-line definition certainly cannot possibly sum-up in a NPOV way such a contentious issue as the Macedonia naming dispute. --Ivan Štambuk 13:15, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
- I would propose "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, also known as Republic of Macedonia or Republic of Skopje" (neutral UN name, followed by the variants of the two sides), or at least "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, also known as Republic of Macedonia", i. e. please the neutral UN name first. Bogorm 14:08, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
- That doesn't work because the average global citizen knows the country as simply "Macedonia". However, I realize this does not float with a couple of other countries, so we could say: "Republic of Macedonia, constitutionally; also known under the name of former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, pending resolution of a longstanding dispute with neighboring Greece." Republic of Skopje definately does not belong in this article at all because it is not even a serious potential resolution to the naming dispute. --Local hero 00:32, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
- It may not be acceptable at present, but it is the proliferated in the Hellenic Republic. And the average global citizen knows that the country Ancient Macedonia (Macedon, here Wikipedia article) was situated around what is now Thessaloniki and did not even include the present-day country we are currently discussing. Bogorm 15:58, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
- That doesn't work because the average global citizen knows the country as simply "Macedonia". However, I realize this does not float with a couple of other countries, so we could say: "Republic of Macedonia, constitutionally; also known under the name of former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, pending resolution of a longstanding dispute with neighboring Greece." Republic of Skopje definately does not belong in this article at all because it is not even a serious potential resolution to the naming dispute. --Local hero 00:32, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
- Since about 95% of the world recognises the language/country simply under the name Macedonian/Macedonia, I've removed all references to FYROM appellation endorsed by the Greeks and Bulgarians. This is a dictionary and the definition should be concise and impartial. Reader can find the relevant further details on w:Macedonia naming dispute. --Ivan Štambuk 17:30, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
- Might be good to plant a link to that WP article in Usage notes or whatever here and at Macedonia, and leave it out of the definitions as much as possible? Robert Ullmann 18:30, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
- I've put the link at the very beginning of both entries (not to lose itself among other less-important external links) by means of template
{{wikipedia}}. Writing ===(=)Usage notes(=)=== OTOH would likely to turn out to opening a can of worms, amounting to summarization of the voluminous Wikipedia article in all the glorious meaning of the word Macedonian in several languages over the last 2-3 thousand years, a and I'm sure I don't want to take that route. --Ivan Štambuk 22:10, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
- I've put the link at the very beginning of both entries (not to lose itself among other less-important external links) by means of template
- Might be good to plant a link to that WP article in Usage notes or whatever here and at Macedonia, and leave it out of the definitions as much as possible? Robert Ullmann 18:30, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
- Indorsed by Bulgarians?? LOL/Mort de rire! Are you aware of the position of the government of Bulgaria at all and how it is referring to its South-West neighbour? Bogorm 18:10, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
- Well, I did read on w:Macedonian language that "As of 2008, the Bulgarian authorities do not recognize officially a distinct Macedonian language" which is to me even more funny than some patriotic Macedonians taking pride in the alleged heritage of Alexander the Great (though Slavs are for the most part genetic mixture of native populations and the incoming Slavic-speakers, so genetically they could very easily inherit quite a lot of Paleo-Balkan substratum in their veins). I mean, this whole naming "dispute" is so bizarre that one cannot help realising that there is something really disturbingly wrong in the collective psyche of Balkanic populations. I've just discovered w:Macedonia_(terminology) which apparently made it to Featured Article status! How silly is that!
- I mean, Slavic languages before the invention of nations in the 19th century in 95% of writings self-referred to themselves as just "Slavs". In OCS canon MSS there is no mention of either Bulgarian or Macedonian - only slověnьskyi "Slavic". The Slavic autonym is retained to this day in the name of the country/language of Slovenia(n), so in essence one could equally rightly object that those damned Slovenes have taken exclusive right to modern-day usage of the ethnicon that is certainly not historically exclusively theirs. But nobody raises this non-issue in this particular case, which pretty much proves that this Macedonian naming dispute that itself projects on various practical points (recognition of the official language of an internationally-recognised country, blocking RoM's EU integration process etc.) is a result of a deeply-rooted nationalism for the Greek and Bulgarian part. --Ivan Štambuk 22:10, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
- Of course they do not. This is our dialect, would you recognise Kajkavian as language? Does any Dutchman speak of Flemish language? Why is that inflicted only on us...? The Greeks have problem with the geographical notion and do not recognise the state, we with the language and please note that our government was among the first to recognise FYROM with its irredentistic name(which I bemoan). before the invention of nations in the 19th century - note that Bulgaria is known with its national name as a country since 632 and on the Balcans as a country since 679 (according to Theophanes, some accept 681). 7th in lieu of 19th century. Bogorm 22:34, 14 February 2009 (UTC)