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Should be deleted?
Latest comment: 16 years ago5 comments5 people in discussion
This entry is quite ridiculous and should be deleted. Sano
"Well-known" is hardly scientific or objective...hence, ridiculous. This is not a word, it is not even a novelty, it's little more than a random string of letters used as a literary device in one and only one book. If that meets the inclusion requirements, then in my opinion, they need serious revision.Sano
It is not a random string. Joyce constructed it carefully by blending together words for thunder in many different languages. Equinox18:40, 14 November 2008 (UTC)Reply
While I can understand your sentiment, Sano, this word is included because it is a nonce word invented by a "well-known author" in a "well-known work" and so complies with the norms for WT:CFI. Other similar examples (although much shorter) can be found in Wiktionary, such as brillig from Jabberwocky and curiously runcible spoon, which was a nonce word when it was coined by Edward Lear, but has now come to acquire a real meaning. -- ALGRIF talk12:14, 9 October 2008 (UTC)Reply
Continually referring to WT:CFI does not make this any more of a word. As to your examples, they are both pronounceable, used in meaningful ways more than once, and again, "well-know" is hardly a valid justification to include in any sort of requirements. Who decides "well-known"? This is an arbitrary distinction that means nothing in my honest opinion. Sano
This should not be deleted. This has to do with Humpty Dumpty from Carroll's Through the Looking-Glass. DUH.
Lol found this 10 years later. should stay.
The other "thunderwords"
Latest comment: 15 years ago2 comments1 person in discussion
Man, I love editing this page and seeing it come up in the recent changes. Anyway, here are all of the "thunderwords" from Finnegans Wake, in case some mischievous scamp ever wants to add the others. Source page: [http://www.robotwisdom.com/jaj//fwake/thunder.h
tml]. All are 100 letters long, except the last which has 101. Equinox17:14, 28 November 2008 (UTC)Reply
Thunder: ]
(Pronounced:bɑːbabadɑːlgɑːrʌktɑːkɑːminɑːrɒ̃nkɒ̃nbrɒ̃ntɒ̃nɛːrɒ̃ntwɒ̃nθuːntrəʊvɑːhuːnɔːnskɔːntʊhʊhuːrdɛnɛnθəːnʊk (or if it's easier) bar-baba-darl-gah-ruk-tar-car-min-ay-rohn-kohn-brohn-tohn-er-rohn-twohn-thoon-tr-oh-var-hoon-orn-skorn-to-hoo-hoo-r-den-en-thur-nook)
Thunder: ]
Clap: ]
Whore: ]
]
Shut the door: ]
]
]
Cough: ]
Norse gods: ]
P.S. It would be really superb to have a proper etymology for this (and the others), most of which comprise probably a dozen or more words (in various languages) on the same theme. I expect scholars have done the work for us, somewhere. Equinox◑22:22, 27 February 2009 (UTC)Reply
Made an attempt at the pronunciation for one of the words (I can say it, I've just never had to write proper pronunciation)
Deletion debate
Latest comment: 15 years ago11 comments8 people in discussion
I strongly favor amending WT:CFI to eliminate the "well=known work" exception to our normal attestation standard. Shakespeare, Milton, Joyce, Nabakov, Burgess, Tolkein, and Pynchon are among the authors whose bad coinages are given a free pass. In this context "bad" means not taken up by anyone else (mentions in literary criticism doesn't count.). I'm sure that if we looked harder at some of our contractions we'd find some that exist only because they satisfied the need a well-known poet for a word that fit the meter. DCDuringTALK19:19, 16 October 2009 (UTC)Reply
Mostly useless, but also mostly harmless, and well within current (and long-standing) policy. At least, I have a hard time imagining a definition of "well-known work" that wouldn't include Finnegans Wake. Therefore keep, without prejudice to the general policy question. -- Visviva05:55, 17 October 2009 (UTC)Reply
The rationale for the well-known work exemption, as I understand it, is that a complete version of Wiktionary should leave no word-sense questions unanswered for someone reading Shakespeare, Milton, etc. This seems reasonable enough to me, though the flip side of that is that we are currently missing thousands of words and word forms that appear even in respelled modern editions of Shakespeare. (I have some lists, if anyone is interested.) On the other hand, this particular need could arguably be better addressed in Concordance: or Appendix:-space, though that approach also has problems. That said, if we eliminate the exemption entirely, we need to replace it with a more nuanced approach to languages that are poorly-attested (Homeric Greek, Eteocypriot, Cia-Cia) or unstandardized (Middle English, Middle Korean, actually almost any Middle/Old language). "Well-known work" gives us an loophole for including forms that appear only in the Homeric hymns, or that are found in a particular spelling only in Chaucer. This is unsatisfactory, of course, since it still excludes less-known writings; but I don't think the well-known-work issue can be addressed before the poorly-attested-languages issue. -- Visviva05:55, 17 October 2009 (UTC)Reply
This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.
WT:FICTION requires three citations independent of the universe/work from which it was originated to exist in the mainspace, but this contains only one citation, and such that it is dubious. TeleComNasSprVen20:36, 27 January 2011 (UTC)Reply
By the way, pace Prince Kassad and TheDaveRoss, I don't think the "usage in a well-known work" ConFI completely overrides the "Fictional universes" section. That said, I think we can safely interpret that section's "three citations in separate works" clause (allowing appendical inclusion) as being a generic reference to the requirements in the "Attestation" section — so if we deem The Da Vinci Code to be a well-known work, for example, then cryptex can be included in a relevant appendix. —RuakhTALK20:30, 28 January 2011 (UTC)Reply
Delete. In my view the "well-know work" rule is designed to allow authors to be creative in the use of suffixes, affixes, foreign derivations and suchlike -- using words like "nymphet" (Nabokov) or "zomoskepsis" (Pynchon), whose roots and meanings are potentially work-outable. Basically, new words from real building-blocks. I think it's pointless to use it to validate obviously nonsensical words like this one, or for example invented languages or dialects as in A Clockwork Orange or Riddley Walker. Otherwise where does it end? Are we going to include every word of Finnegans Wake? Ƿidsiþ10:32, 1 February 2011 (UTC)Reply
Plus, though fanciful, this looks suspiciously like it could be a specific place name with commercial interest, so without quotations indicating otherwise, it needs to pass WT:BRAND, WT:FICTION, and WT:CFI#Place names, not to mention any other requirements that are invented after those have been painstakingly met. DAVilla14:05, 2 February 2011 (UTC)Reply
If you don't like this clause of CFI, then change it, don't try to sabotage it; it's not capitalized, and there's no indication that it's a place or brand.--Prosfilaes20:16, 2 February 2011 (UTC)Reply
Sorry, strange mood I was in. I was being completely sarcastic. My gripe is not with CFI, it's with the compounding, including the uncertainty of compounding, and the compounding uncertainty. DAVilla09:00, 6 February 2011 (UTC)Reply
Finnegans Wake is a hard case, but yes, what that rule in CFI means is that we will include every word in a well-known work. I see no reason to exclude works like A Clockwork Orange just because they have words that people will want to look up because they can't work out what they mean.--Prosfilaes20:16, 2 February 2011 (UTC)Reply
Keep Until and unless there is a restructuring which redirects to an appendix but then that would still be a keep. The importance of the writer and the work are the key factors here, there is no precedent for any work or author not rising to the level of Joyce/Finnegan's Wake.Geofferybard03:09, 15 February 2011 (UTC)Reply
Our entry says this is an Interjection and defines it as if it were a noun: "A sound which represents the symbolic thunderclap associated with the fall of Adam and Eve" How would one know this is the "meaning" of the word? Because Joyce said so? Because a commentator said so? Because a majority of voters said so? Because of the not-yet-provided authoritative etymology makes it plausible? Having such an entry seems to ignore the idea of meaning in any linguistic sense. It seems that we can best serve the opening sentence of WT:CFI (A term should be included if it's likely that someone would run across it and want to know what it means) if we say that all evidence about what it means is in the text in which it appears. Otherwise we are supporting yet another in the crypto-prescriptivist definitions that we seem to be falling prey to as we lose our native-speaker contributors. DCDuringTALK18:23, 27 February 2011 (UTC)Reply
I don't think it can be considered as a word. Does anybody really consider it as a word? And is anybody likely to look for its meaning? Lmaltier21:49, 27 February 2011 (UTC)Reply
I've read with increasing dispear the contents of this talk page. This garbage "bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonnerronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenthurnuk" is not a word, and will never be a word, this is a clear example of policy over common sence, and wiktionary standing is badly undermined by it's inclusion. Get rid of it, its crap. Jasonfward
It boggles the mind that this page is still here. It's not 'policy' over 'common sense' as much as it is simple lunacy. ~ sano ~ (talk)
It's a word. Used in a tweeted comment on The Washington Post's ill-advised headline, "Jane Austen was the master of the marriage plot. But she remained single." Viz., "Alex Shephard @alex_shephard James Joyce wrote Finnegans Wake. But he never bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonnerronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenthurnuk. https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/942605980625506304 … 11:30 AM - Dec 18, 2017" Which was what brought me here, where the entry enlightened me. Keep it up!
Wrap around
Latest comment: 1 year ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Is their text wrapping available? It would make the title much neater and would take away the need to scroll side to side.
To wrap this would probably require hyphenation, and I'd hesitate to do that without knowing the etymology of the letter-sequence I was hyphenating. --GeorgeTSLC (talk) 22:30, 20 December 2017 (UTC)Reply
A single word should not be split up without using hyphens. If there is a severe technical issue such as if the word is completely unreadable because it is dangling off of the screen of the page, you can add "<wbr />" to create an unhyphenated word break without adding any spaces but you really should use hyphens instead since otherwise readers will think it is multiple words instead of one word. If hyphens have been omitted you should make a note of this such as: " (this is one word but has been split up for display)" Nicole Sharp (talk) 11:20, 24 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
Actually there is an easier fix. The word will automatically textwrap if you put it inside a PRE element:
Failure to be verified means that insufficient eligible citations of this usage have been found, and the entry therefore does not meet Wiktionary inclusion criteria at the present time. We have archived here the disputed information, the verification discussion, and any documentation gathered so far, pending further evidence. Do not re-add this information to the article without also submitting proof that it meets Wiktionary's criteria for inclusion.
The "Read Aloud" feature on Microsoft Edge seems to have no problems pronouncing this word using Microsoft Aria for USA English or Microsoft Emily for Irish English. It would be good if someone familiar with the original usage could provide an authoritative pronunciation but this may be different for Irish/British/Canadian/USA/etc. English especially since this word is now in common global usage outside of its original Irish English usage. Nicole Sharp (talk) 11:14, 24 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
Google N-Grams
Latest comment: 1 year ago2 comments2 people in discussion
@Ioaxxere is making a good point here: and I just wonder: When are the Google N-Grams NOT appropriate for an entry? Because I've seen all kinds of things on the N-Grams chart that could be misinterpreted or are not what they seem. I almost want to provide an interpretation of N-Grams charts sometimes, or ask for an interpretation. For me, the N-Grams chart here proved (1) the approximate origins date (2) the continuining appearance in publications. But Ioaxxere is right that the the degree of frequency in modern works is all or mostly just the noise from Finnegan's Wake. I feel like an N-Grams chart sometimes needs an accordant explanation written on the Wiktionary entry itself. Just thinking out loud here; I'm fine with leaving this off the entry. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 16:11, 24 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion
You can't call this a "word", definitely not entry-worthy in my opinion. It should be shunted out of mainspace into a siding, and left to rot. DonnanZ (talk) 11:33, 2 January 2024 (UTC)Reply