Talk:cruz gamada
Verification of “swastika” sense
Please note this discussion on a user’s talk page and this RfV-sense discussion, in which fora I raise my concerns about this term’s use in the sense of “swastika”; please address these concerns in order to verify this sense, if you have the capacity. † ﴾(u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 02:18, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
RFV discussion — kept
The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for verification.
This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.
Portuguese: RFV-sense for use to mean the swastika. † ﴾(u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 13:29, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
To note: I don’t doubt that this term is used thus, but I challenge whether such usage is correct. I am no speaker of Portuguese, but it is intuitive to me that suástica would mean swastika whilst cruz gamada would mean crux gammata. † ﴾(u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 13:39, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
- You think this is doubtful why? google books for citation or just look at w:pt:Suástica Robert Ullmann 13:36, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
- The two symbols are (understandably) often confused; I just wonder whether the same distinction exists in Portuguese (if only academically). † ﴾(u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 13:42, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
- I don't recognise a distinction in English. A crux gammata IS a swastika, or at least so I've always thought. Two names for the same symbol. Ƿidsiþ 09:28, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
This seems a bit complicated, and the issue is not limited to the Portuguese entry. Usage note in Wiktionary article on crux gammata says: "crux gammata is often mistaken for the swastika". Also, the article on swastika does not mention crux gammata as synonym, although it lists more than a dozen of them. The two (or one, if one prefers) symbols have a different history going back thousands of years. Swastika is said to be originally an old Hindu symbol representing the sun or universe, and crux gammata is made up of four Greek gammas, connecting it to divinity in some complex way. Both symbols can be drawn in a number of ways, and some of the ways look same to the eye. There would probably be no problem, if the Nazis had not chosen swastika to their symbol, making it a "bad" symbol and a taboo. I suggest two changes: 1) change the usage note under crux gammata to "crux gammata should not be mistaken for the Nazi swastika", and 2) add crux gammata to the synonyms of swastika. --Hekaheka 12:37, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
- I wouldn’t put too much faith in the usage note that says "crux gammata is often mistaken for the swastika". That note was put there by User:Doremítzwr. —Stephen 15:55, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think their histories are separate. The symbol was around before the Greeks; they just called it a gamma-cross because that's what it looked like to them. Ƿidsiþ 08:58, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
- The OED partially distinguishes them, in that for (deprecated template usage) swastika it has both a Nazi sense (#2) and a neutral sense (#1), and only the neutral sense says “also called (deprecated template usage) gammadion”. Insofar as (deprecated template usage) gammadion = (deprecated template usage) crux gammata, I think Hekaheka's suggested changes sound spot-on. —RuakhTALK 03:46, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
{{rfv-sense}} readded after it was removed without prior verification of the term. † ﴾(u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 11:17, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
- The Michaelis Moderno Dicionário Português-Inglês translates cruz gamada as swastika, fylfot. This can be considered one quotation. --Vahagn Petrosyan 08:10, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
- Well, not a quotation, but a reference. I’ve added it to the entry. One more like that will be enough to show that the (deprecated template usage) swastika sense is standard. Of course, the sense still needs three quotations showing that usage in order to satisfy the CFI. † ﴾(u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 03:53, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
A reference has been provided and the {{rfv-sense}} was removed long ago. RfV-sense passed. † ﴾(u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 22:32, 19 September 2009 (UTC)