Talk:down
Are you down (for something)?
what about "are you down tonight?" "yeah, i'm down man; count me in!"
Done Equinox ◑ 17:00, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
- @User:Equinox Does the usex "I thought you was down" go with this one? How about "my homies is down so don't arouse my anger"? Troll Control (talk) 19:51, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
down with
Where can I find this sense: "down with the tyranny!" or similar? Anatoli 05:03, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I am still interested where to fit this sense. I'll put it under "Interjection". --Anatoli 05:45, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
- Done It can now be found at the entry down with. Equinox ◑ 17:00, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
Preposition may be removed
"Down" is not a preposition. The two meanings under the heading Preposition are also given under the heading "Adverb" Aursani (talk) 19:43, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
- There is duplication but it doesn't necessarily follow that it's not a preposition. More probably some examples are misplaced. Equinox ◑ 02:44, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
Is not the military sense different?
I would think that for a person to "down" an enemy fighter or missile is a different thing from a storm to "down" a tree. DeistCosmos (talk) 15:02, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
Etymology
Etymology is fine except for the imaginary Proto-Indo-European root and meaning. The high standard of etymologies from Wiktionary are sometimes unique, (for example, that of DOG). DOWN and also DUN (dusky brown) are two word examples continued from the Celtic, due to the influence of other Germanic words from Saxon conquests. Werdna Yrneh Yarg (talk) 11:49, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
means 'Absolutely not; means 'Exceedingly unlikely'; means 'Very dubious'; means 'Questionable'; means 'Possible'; means 'Probable'; means 'Likely'; means 'Most Likely' or *Unattested; means 'Attested'; means 'Obvious' - only used for close matches within the same language or dialect, at linkable periods.
Andrew H. Gray 21:17, 4 November 2015 (UTC) Andrew (talk)
Possible missing verb sense
Chambers 1908 has a transitive verb sense "to dispirit" (i.e. bring someone down, make them depressed?). Equinox ◑ 16:59, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
2. To drive someone or something to another location I can't leave for the beach until Saturday—can you drive me down? Mom is going to drive all of that stuff down to campus next weekend.
What meaning is this definition referring to? --Backinstadiums (talk) 09:54, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
RFV discussion: October 2020–January 2021
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RFV sense:
- (intensifier) Used with verbs to add emphasis to the action of the verb.
- They tamped (down) the asphalt to get a better bond.
The existing example is IMO not really that of an intensifier, and is apparently covered by the more specific sense "So as to secure or compress something to the floor, ground, or other (usually horizontal) surface". Seeking examples that are purely intensifiers. Mihia (talk) 21:21, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
- Calm down. We'll find some. Perhaps at least the more literal senses of rain down, argue down, beat down, bow down, burn down, slow down, chain down, close down, cool down, copy down, crouch down, dig down, dim down, sit down, etc.
- There are other cases where the implication is "to a point of completion or thoroughness": chase down
- Some of my propose intensifier cases may be viewed as this "completion" sense. DCDuring (talk) 23:45, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
- I'm afraid I do not agree that any of those are valid examples. Mihia (talk) 08:26, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- Why not? In virtually every case down is either an intensifier or the VERB + down expression is pleonastic. DCDuring (talk) 14:04, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- I think we have different views about what constitutes an "intensifier". I think you are including cases where the same or similar meaning of "down" is already contained within the verb, whereas for me, an intensifier should not express any specific meaning at all, other than intensification (if it does, then it belongs under the sense relevant to that meaning). For example, I would not call "down" an intensifier in "sit down", as clearly it indicates downward movement, notwithstanding the fact that "sit" alone incorporates or implies a similar meaning. Please can others comment on this too. Mihia (talk) 17:32, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- Is there a better name for what I am talking about? Is it a "kind" of intensifier?
- Also, there are some uses of words like up and down that make them aspect markers, indicating completion of the action of the unadorned verb. DCDuring (talk) 21:36, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- I think we have different views about what constitutes an "intensifier". I think you are including cases where the same or similar meaning of "down" is already contained within the verb, whereas for me, an intensifier should not express any specific meaning at all, other than intensification (if it does, then it belongs under the sense relevant to that meaning). For example, I would not call "down" an intensifier in "sit down", as clearly it indicates downward movement, notwithstanding the fact that "sit" alone incorporates or implies a similar meaning. Please can others comment on this too. Mihia (talk) 17:32, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- Why not? In virtually every case down is either an intensifier or the VERB + down expression is pleonastic. DCDuring (talk) 14:04, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- I'm afraid I do not agree that any of those are valid examples. Mihia (talk) 08:26, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
RFV-failed Kiwima (talk) 19:27, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
RFV discussion: October 2020–January 2021
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RFV sense:
- Used with verbs to indicate that the action of the verb was carried to some state of completion, rather than being of indefinite duration.
- He boiled the mixture. / He boiled down the mixture.
- He sat waiting. / He sat down and waited.
Seeking convincing examples where "down" isn't better explained in some other way. The "boiled down" example is covered by the more specific sense "From a greater to a less bulk, or from a thinner to a thicker consistence", which also gives a "boil down" example, while "sat down" does not to me indicate any more "completion" than "sat". Mihia (talk) 21:24, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
Previously discussed at Wiktionary:Tea_room/2019/May#down. Mihia (talk) 21:30, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
- You can always add definitions to cover the meaning in each verb synonym set. DCDuring (talk) 23:48, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
- You can. I have to fix some sort of WordPress nonsense. Phone me if you want to swap. Equinox ◑ 02:30, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- I don't understand what you mean. Mihia (talk) 08:27, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- I think he's saying that he'd rather add definitions than fix his WordPress problem. DCDuring (talk) 14:01, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- No, I mean I don't understand "You can always add definitions to cover the meaning in each verb synonym set". We should add definitions for all distinct meanings of "down", but how does this help to verify or reject the challenged sense? Mihia (talk) 17:35, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- The definition that you cited: "From a greater to a less bulk, or from a thinner to a thicker consistence" is specific to a single verb and its synonyms. Some of our definitions for common adverb/prepositions like down, up, in, out, for, against, to, from are specialized to very small classes of verbs often a single common verb and its synonyms. I think of such definitions as not being as helpful as they try to be because they are lost among all the other excessively specific definitions of those words. DCDuring (talk) 21:42, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- There are plenty of examples that would fit that definition, the first part at least, e.g. "pare down", "whittle down", "cut down", "trim down", "slim down" etc. I don't think it is too specific, but the exact wording of the definition could probably be improved, and more examples could be given, which I will try to attend to in due course. But in any case, regardless of how and where we cover the "boil down" sense, to me the word "down" in this phrase signifies a reduction in volume, and not "carried to some state of completion" as the challenged entry presently claims. Mihia (talk) 09:40, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
- I take your point. DCDuring (talk) 14:06, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
- There are plenty of examples that would fit that definition, the first part at least, e.g. "pare down", "whittle down", "cut down", "trim down", "slim down" etc. I don't think it is too specific, but the exact wording of the definition could probably be improved, and more examples could be given, which I will try to attend to in due course. But in any case, regardless of how and where we cover the "boil down" sense, to me the word "down" in this phrase signifies a reduction in volume, and not "carried to some state of completion" as the challenged entry presently claims. Mihia (talk) 09:40, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
- The definition that you cited: "From a greater to a less bulk, or from a thinner to a thicker consistence" is specific to a single verb and its synonyms. Some of our definitions for common adverb/prepositions like down, up, in, out, for, against, to, from are specialized to very small classes of verbs often a single common verb and its synonyms. I think of such definitions as not being as helpful as they try to be because they are lost among all the other excessively specific definitions of those words. DCDuring (talk) 21:42, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- No, I mean I don't understand "You can always add definitions to cover the meaning in each verb synonym set". We should add definitions for all distinct meanings of "down", but how does this help to verify or reject the challenged sense? Mihia (talk) 17:35, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- I think he's saying that he'd rather add definitions than fix his WordPress problem. DCDuring (talk) 14:01, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
I have added three usexes that I think might support this meaning. What do others think? Kiwima (talk) 20:39, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
RFV-passed Kiwima (talk) 07:49, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
Entry now reads:
- Used with verbs to indicate that the action of the verb was carried to some state of completion, permanence, or success rather than being of indefinite duration.
- He closed operations. / He closed down operations.
- He chased answers. / He chased down answers.
- The baby settled. / The baby settled down.
@Kiwima, DCDuring: Belatedly, I am not really convinced about all of the examples added. Does "He closed operations" indicate an action of "indefinite duration"? To me it seems like an action with a clear and permanent completion, viz. closure. "The baby settled. / The baby settled down." seems dubious to me also. Again, "The baby settled" seems to me to imply no less completion than "The baby settled down". I say that "down" here connotes a reduction in noise/movement/activity. The most plausible one to me is "He chased answers." / "He chased down answers", where "down" can seem to add the meaning that he found answers rather than kept on looking. (I am still not 100% convinced that the present definition is the true explanation of "down" in "chase down", but it is very hard to prove what that true explanation would be.)Mihia (talk) 11:39, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
- @Mihia: You may be right about "the baby settled", but "He closed operations" implies that they may reopen later, while "he closed down operations" suggests a more permanent closure. We could also include hunted vs hunted down, tracked vs tracked down. Kiwima (talk) 20:51, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
- I agree that some of the usage examples are ambiguous. It would be hard to find unambiguous attestation for the close down and settle down cases. Hunt down and track down seem unambiguous to me. I am sure that we could find more: cook down, dampen down, hail down, strip down, sponge down, smooth down, sand down, rub down, melt down all seem unambiguous in most usage. DCDuring (talk) 21:25, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
- I don't personally see much (or any) difference in the permanence of "closed down operations" versus "closed operations". I think a better example of this idea with "close" would be "He closed (down) the shop", where the sentence without "down" could mean "closed for the day, but reopening tomorrow", while "down" probably implies a more permanent closure. Despite this, I very much doubt that "down" here actually means what the relevant definition says. Surely it means "into a state of non-operation", like "I shut down the machine" or whatever. Most of the other suggested examples, "cook down", "dampen down" etc., all in my view have clear explanations for "down" that are nothing to do with the queried definition. I see "hunt/track down" as similar to "chase down", which as a group are IMO the best candidates so far identified, but still not absolutely 100% convincing that "down" really does mean what the relevant definition says. Mihia (talk) 21:02, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
- In fact, to possibly repeat what I may once have said somewhere else on this topic, it seems to me that "down" in "hunt down" may have originally, or literally, referred to bringing an animal "down" in the sense of "felling" it, but then acquired greater and greater figurative sense. But this is only speculation on my part. Mihia (talk) 23:41, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
- I don't personally see much (or any) difference in the permanence of "closed down operations" versus "closed operations". I think a better example of this idea with "close" would be "He closed (down) the shop", where the sentence without "down" could mean "closed for the day, but reopening tomorrow", while "down" probably implies a more permanent closure. Despite this, I very much doubt that "down" here actually means what the relevant definition says. Surely it means "into a state of non-operation", like "I shut down the machine" or whatever. Most of the other suggested examples, "cook down", "dampen down" etc., all in my view have clear explanations for "down" that are nothing to do with the queried definition. I see "hunt/track down" as similar to "chase down", which as a group are IMO the best candidates so far identified, but still not absolutely 100% convincing that "down" really does mean what the relevant definition says. Mihia (talk) 21:02, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
- I agree that some of the usage examples are ambiguous. It would be hard to find unambiguous attestation for the close down and settle down cases. Hunt down and track down seem unambiguous to me. I am sure that we could find more: cook down, dampen down, hail down, strip down, sponge down, smooth down, sand down, rub down, melt down all seem unambiguous in most usage. DCDuring (talk) 21:25, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
RFV discussion: April 2021
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(African-American Vernacular, slang) Accepted or respected, especially in the black or thug community.
- I don't think even the usex is unambiguously for this sense. Hard to search for, sorry. Troll Control (talk) 18:13, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
cited Kiwima (talk) 21:12, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
- Could be keep the RfV tag for a while? Maybe somebody familiar with AAVE could confirm the citations and make sure that this sense (15) and sense 8 are/were distinct. DCDuring (talk) 22:47, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
- down with the kids is interesting. Troll Control (talk) 08:46, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
- Could be keep the RfV tag for a while? Maybe somebody familiar with AAVE could confirm the citations and make sure that this sense (15) and sense 8 are/were distinct. DCDuring (talk) 22:47, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
- The usex is hard to distinguish from the "Comfortable with, accepting of" sense; I would remove it...although I notice it was copied from Urban Dictionary's 2002 definition of down as "To be 'down' means to be 'with it'. Respected in the thug community. What do you mean, no? I thought you was down." Another UD definition, from 2003, is "to be friends with someone or to spend time with them. 'Gettin Down' means to fuck them. 'I'm pretty down with her.'"
The Concise New Patridge also asserts that in addition to "willing, eager" (presumably our "comfortable with"), down can mean "excellent, loyal, fashionable" as well as "aware of the current social fashions and opinions; being or feeling a part of a general or specific social scene. A narrowing of the earlier UK C18 sense (wide-awake, suspicious, aware), modern use is mainly black or trendy US." (That semantic evolution, if right, is similar to woke.) The "aware of social fashions" sense is well-illustrated by the quote "You ain't down if you ain't heard of Method Man." from the 1995, Lois Stavsky et al. A2Z: The Book of Rap and Hip-Hop Slang, page 30. OTOH, our Coolio cite seems more likely to mean something corresponding to Patridge's "loyal", IMO, and for the "down for" cites, "loyal" seems at least as likely an interpretation as "respected, accepted". - -sche (discuss) 21:14, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
RFV-passed Kiwima (talk) 05:13, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
- I (subsequently) completely chanted the definition, though, based on the reference and analysis I gave above. We're also missing the "aware of social fashions; fashionable" sense illustrated by the "You ain't down if you ain't heard of Method Man" quote. It's conceivable that the "respected in the thug community" sense we and Urban Dictionary had is even an attempt at expressing that(?); I have seen Urban Dictionary take some pretty odd tacks as far as how to express what a word means. I don't think the citations provided support that sense, if it exists. - -sche (discuss) 02:09, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
Against someone or something. (*Typically: be ~;get ~.) You've been down on us all lately. I'm down on computers lately. Everyone sure got down on fast food.
RFV discussion: June 2022
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Rfv-sense - the Adjective sense 15 I've never heard this to mean "loyal" - to be 'down' is to be "accepted/respected in the (thug) community", to be "with it" (i.e. down with the brown), to be "cool (with us)"... (?) Leasnam (talk) 02:34, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think I may have resolved this with a little rewording of the definition. Leasnam (talk) 15:29, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
RFD discussion: June 2021–February 2023
The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for deletion (permalink).
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- (comparable) At a lower or further place or position along a set path.
- His place is farther down the road.
- The company was well down the path to bankruptcy.
- 1906, Stanley J Weyman, chapter I, in Chippinge Borough, New York, N.Y.: McClure, Phillips & Co., →OCLC, page 01:
- It was April 22, 1831, and a young man was walking down Whitehall in the direction of Parliament Street. He wore shepherd's plaid trousers and the swallow-tail coat of the day, with a figured muslin cravat wound about his wide-spread collar.
Dylanvt removed this sense (adverb; Special:Diff/62754912) and moved the usage examples and the quotation to “From one end to another of (in any direction); along.” (preposition; Special:Diff/62754915). J3133 (talk) 21:42, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
- Seems to be fine as a preposition only in this sense, although sometimes one of the nouns is implied: The coffee shop? That's further down . (possibly with a gesture). Facts707 (talk) 05:17, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
- I agree that the above examples are prepositional, but there is a "static" prepositional usage, e.g. "He lives down the road" and a "kinetic" prepositional usage, e.g. "He is walking down the road". It may be possible either to combine these into one sense, with suitable wording possibly involving "or", or to split them, but the existing presentation, where e.g. "His place is farther down the road" is under the definition "From one end to another of", doesn't seem ideal to me. Cases such as "He lives further down" and "His place is further down", as raised by Facts, are tricky to handle. Mihia (talk) 19:09, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
- Does anyone have the energy to undo the out-of-process deletion and close this as no consensus? Requires readding the sense to the proper location and moving the quotations back. --Dan Polansky (talk) 18:20, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
- RFD-kept (no consensus). Deletion undone. — excarnateSojourner (talk · contrib) 22:21, 26 February 2023 (UTC)