Talk:fallen
Parts of speech
- Copied from WT:BP DCDuring TALK 13:54, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Just by way of observation, fallen is only an English verb, not and adjective or a noun. The "adjective" is simply the participle functioning as a modifier (as opposed to a true adjective like interested). The "noun" is a fused head construction similar to that recently described here.--Brett 01:02, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- The discriminators I have been relying on for showing an adjective PoS for a past participle is that it be used as a predicate and that it be comparable/gradable. Some senses of fallen seem to fit the bill, serving as predicates: A soldier who has fallen can also be said to be fallen. Many dictionaries present it as an adjective: CompactOED, WNW, RHU, Wordsmyth, Longmans DCE, Websters 1828 and 1913 (but not online). The available Cambridge Dictionaries, AHD, and MWOnline don't. I assume that Collins does not either. The senses they show for the adjective are often just the "fallen woman" and "fallen soldiers" senses. Encarta shows those as idioms. Fallen is used as a plural noun in reference to the dead, especially in memorial services and similar places where an archaic usage might be expected.
- Perhaps we should show the adjectival and noun senses as archaic or dated and show fallen woman as an idiom (dated?). That would allow us to serve readers of older literature as well as those trying to learning contemporary English. DCDuring TALK 02:16, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- I don't want to sidetrack the thread, but simply being able to be used both attributively and predicatively is insufficient evidence for adjective status. I find no examples of very fallen, so fallen, more fallen, or most fallen, and become fallen doesn't seem to work either. Again, in reference to the dead, it is not a plural noun, but a participle verb functioning as a fused head in a headless noun phrase, that is an NP with no actual noun in it. That's why you talk about the fallen, but two fallen soldiers, not two fallen.--Brett 10:30, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
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Rfv-sense: 1. The Devil; 2. An evil spirit, a fiend. I can find no support for these in any on-line dictionary. DCDuring TALK 16:10, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
- I'm sure that fallen is sometimes used as a shortened form of the term "fallen angel" (which would explain the first and second senses). I'll have to find some cites, however.--TBC 18:26, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
- Google Books turns up some relevant results (using the search term, "the fallen")--TBC 18:28, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
- Insert at least three of the best citations for each sense and we'll go from there. DCDuring TALK 18:58, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
- Trying to find a few usable ones, but most of the results use "fallen" (in the demon sense) in their titles. I should be able to manage to find three, however.--TBC 08:36, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
- Insert at least three of the best citations for each sense and we'll go from there. DCDuring TALK 18:58, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
- Google Books turns up some relevant results (using the search term, "the fallen")--TBC 18:28, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
from the entry:
- No cites given, timed out. - DaveRoss 00:25, 2 February 2010 (UTC)