Talk:takilya

@Carl Francis Hi! So, if it's not really Spanish, what is it, and what's your source? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 08:29, 18 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Carl Francis Without any external references contrary to this, printed references and logical conclusion shows that this is a Spanish borrowing. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 13:57, 18 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Atitarev, @DTLHS, @Metaknowledge, @Justinrleung Hi, guys. Could you help mitigate this situation about the Cebuano etymology? @Carl Francis is insisting that "some Spanish-sounding Cebuano aren't really from Spanish", which in this case is the Cebuano word "takilya" which he claims isn't from Spanish. But external references tells us that it is a Spanish borrowing, and logically so. So I asked him for references of his own, which he didn't want to provide, so I thought I'd give him one week time to reply, but he didn't, so I changed the etymology to a Spanish borrowing, to which he changed it back saying "stop forcing your penis in other people's mouths". I'll forgive him for that form of unprofessionalism, but then he still insists on his way, even without references. Please mediate, thanks! --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 07:28, 28 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

It seems like there's some distinction that Carl Francis wants to make between "borrowed" and "based on the spelling of". I don't know exactly what that means and I know nothing about these languages except for Spanish. DTLHS (talk) 16:06, 28 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Mar vin kaiser: As far as I can tell, Carl Francis is simply confused about the terminology used here, but that does not excuse his unacceptable response to you. If either of you have a dictionary or other scholarly work that can be referenced for this etymology, that would be very helpful. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 19:05, 28 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

@DTLHS: The distinction he's trying to make is that the current Cebuano word "takilya" is using Cebuano orthography, and not Spanish orthography, but that doesn't negate the fact that the word is borrowed. It's the same thing with all other Philippine languages, Spanish borrowings are spelled using the local orthography, but are still borrowings. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 04:51, 29 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Carl Francis Regard {{obor}}. Not saying anything content-related (the template needs to spread more). One might use {{psm}} too if the spelling and and pronunciation hang together. Fay Freak (talk) 00:51, 29 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

I don't think either of those are relevant. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 14:31, 29 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

Sorry for the late reply. Since I was pinged, in my opinion, the Spanish etymology is valid. User:Carl Francis should get a warning for his behaviour. I have been to Cebu and attempted to learn Cebuano and Tagalog for a short time. Nevertheless, the etymology is obvious here. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 22:46, 29 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Atitarev, @DTLHS, @Metaknowledge, @Fay Freak

There is no denying the that a number of words in Cebuano, or Filipino, are from Spanish but not everything is as it seems. Some of those words are made to look and sound Spanish for uniformity. One has to look closely to see if the word or the sense has existed during the contact of Spaniards and Filipinos. To illustrate:

• retirado (retired)

• At first glance, one would think the word iss from Spanish but it is not. The Spanish word for retired is jubilado. The word is spelled this way because -d or -ed equals -ado in Cebuano words. Another example is lisensyado, from lisensiya +‎ -ado
• Retirado nga sundawo hari sa CEPCA monthly tournament.

  Retired soldier is king of CEPCA monthly tournament.

• mintinar (to keep, to maintain)

• Namintinar sa Barako Bull Energy Cola ang una nga pwesto human sa ilang 123-114 nga kadaogan batok sa GlobalPort Batang Pier sa 2015 PBA Governor's Cup niadtong Domingo sa Smart-Araneta Coliseum.

  The Barako Bull Energy Cola keeps first spot in a 123-114 victory over the GlobalPort Batang Pier in the 2015 PBA Governor's Cup on Sunday at the Smart-Araneta Coliseum.

* Obviously from maintain but with the prefix -ar deliberately added make the word look like a Spanish infinitive. Most English words undergo some form of, colloquially refered to by speakers of Cebuano as, "hispanicization" before being entered into Cebuano to make them sound less English and less awkward to Cebuano ears.

A quote from a Cebuano native speaker in the Cebuano language talk page in Wikipedia:

"I'm a native Visayan speaker, I also speak tagalog and english, and yes I agree. However it should be noted that very few English words actually get adopted into filipino languages without being hispanized first. It's a quirk. 'Airplane' for example, while colloquially called 'Erpleyn' (or something like that, haha), by uneducated people is referred to as 'Eroplano' (or 'Aeroplano') more formally in Visayan. This applies to new English terms as well which did not exist back then. Like scientific fields - Neurology for example, noes not become Neurolodyi as expected but is hispanized first before being spelled in the Visayan way - Neurolohiya. The same thing happens in most other filipino languages."

Cebuano being a predominantly Spanish-sounding language, a word like meynteyn would standout. But this was in the past, now the language is more open to borrowings from English.

• lider (leader)

• I remember someone kept adding the Spanish word líder in the etymology and I had to revert him a couple of times. The word is from English, as illustrated in this book. The i stands for the long e sound in English. See also dyip

• telebisyon

• @Mar vin kaiser argues that the word is from Spanish. Most Tagalog dictionaries he has read points to Spanish televisión as a source, but that is not the case. Based on history, the television was introduced in the Philippines in 1953. Spain got theirs in 1956. The Philippines got the TV three years ahead of Spain. Both introduction was years after the Spanish occupation of the Philippines―Spain's rule ended on 12 June 1898. How can telebisyon be a loanword from Spanish? Same user argues it is pronounced like the Spanish word, isn't that the case with most Cebuano and Filipino words?

• bentilador (electric fan)

• Not from Spanish either. How did electric fan become bentilador? Again by "hispanicization." The process employed by writers and The Commission on the Filipino Language in its early years. Here's a quote from the same book above:

Kung walang katumbas sa Kastila o kung mayroon man at maaaring maunawaan ng nakakarami, hinihiram nang tuwiran ang katagang Ingles... (If there is no Spanish equivalent, or if an equivalent cannot be easily understood by the majority, the English term is borrowed...

Obviously the earlier step is find a Spanish equivalent:

English -> Spanish -> P for F, B for B, TS for CH

electric fan -> ventilador -> bentilador

Same process found on this page, in turn from this book.

1.) Paraan I. Pagkuha ng katumbas sa Kasti8la ng hihiraming salitang Ingles at pagbaybay dito ayon sa palabaybayang Filipino. (Step 1. Pick a Spanish equivalent of English word and spell it using the Filipino alphabet)

Halimbawa: (example)

Liquid=liquido=likido

Cemetery=cementerio=sementeryo

Now the question, did we borrow from English? From Spanish? Supposing it's a loanword from Spanish, the same derivation can apply to telebisyon, did we wait three years to give it a name? Bentilador is fairly a recent use. Cebuano scholars have conflicting rules in just about everything about the Cebuano language. These groups are populated by, mostly, language purists, thus, indigenization in Cebuano. These people would correct you if you use a foreign word they don't recognize as loanword, and they still do upto today. One group coined dagitungin, another followed the Filipino derivation, and most of the speakers used the English word. It has always been electric fan to most, although most literature now use bentilador. The coined words died out.

• takilya (box office)

• Following the derivation above

box office -> taquilla -> takilya (qui "kee" -> ki , lla -> lya)

• Expanding takilya -> numero uno sa takilya (number one in the box office). Now some headlines:

Noah nag-una sa takilya (Noah number one in the box office)

Janella ug Jameson suwayan sa takikya (Janella and Jameson to be tested by the box office)

• Obviously the word has always meant sales and not the ticketing booth. There's isn't a Cebuano word for ticketing offices in general either. Sure the first cinema was built late during the Spanish occupation but box office numbers has always been a thing of American Cinema.

Now a bonus redundant Cebuano code-switching to illustrate takilya is not a ticket booth.

Nahimong box-office sa takilya ang unang proyekto nilang Vice Ganda ug Coco Martin sa miaging tuig.

Box-office sa takilya (box office in the box office) Above, box-office is "hit" short for "box office hit." So, box-office sa takilya" is a box office hit. Alternatively and informally box-office could mean packed, e.g, box-office ang lubong, tanan amigo sa patay nitunga (the interment was packed, all of the dead person's friends showed up).

Carl Francis (talk) 22:51, 31 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Carl Francis: Thanks for replying. I remember having this discussion with you. I understand what you mean. Some words in Tagalog are also not exactly Spanish loanwords, but attempts to make English words sound "native", and in the psyche of many Filipinos, in order to make an English word sound "native", you make it sound "Spanish", which is how the Tagalog word "kontemporaryo" (contemporary) was born, even though the Spanish word was contemporáneo. However, again, I must reiterate that the Spanish language did not stop existing in the Philippine Islands after the Philippine Revolution in 1898. In fact, Filipino lawyers had to be fluent in Spanish well after World War II, because some legal documents were in Spanish, and some needed to be defended in Spanish (if you look at legal records after WWII, they are in Spanish). Spanish was only greatly reduced in the Philippines after many elites died during WWII, and Ferdinand Marcos removed Spanish from the basic curriculum. Anyway, going back to my point, even if the object in question existed only after the Philippine Revolution, there's no doubt that the intention is still to call the object whatever it was called in Spanish, especially words like bentilador and takilya, and that is what a borrowing is. The fact is that early 20th century Tagalog and Cebuano speakers were still aware of the Spanish language, and upon encountering new objects, they called those objects what they were called in Spanish. By the way, the Spanish word taquilla also has the same meaning of sales. One could say "primeros en la taquilla" (No. 1 in the box office), for example. So as I said, it's a borrowing. For the case of telebisyon, I grant you, there are two possibilities here. The first possibility is what I think you subscribe to, which is that Tagalog and Cebuano speakers, upon encountering the television in the mid 20th century, knew what it was called in English, which was television, but upon using it in their language, wanted to make it sound more native (more Spanish sounding), so they shifted the stress to the penultimate to the ultimate syllable, thereby coincidentally making it identical to the Spanish televisión. The second possibility is that Tagalog and Cebuano speakers, upon encountering the television in the mid 20th century, aware of what it was called in Spanish, called the object how it is called in Spanish. It may seem to you that the first is correct, and the second is unlikely, but one thing is for sure, that the word is a borrowing. Actually, both scenarios might have happened for different groups of people, for words like telebisyon, so if ever, one shouldn't force one's opinion on the topic, and provide the entire story in the etymology. However, for takilya, it's not from English. It's clear that the intention was to call the object as how it is called in Spanish. That is the textbook definition of a borrowing. Anyone else, any thoughts? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 01:46, 1 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Mar vin kaiser Just to follow up my post on your talk page and the now-stale discussions on WT:Etymology scriptorium, it's been 3 years since this discussion, but I would say these disputed etymologies continue to persist in many Cebuano borrowings, and less commonly in Tagalog (where we've been cleaning those up ever since where other dictionaries point to that).

I've been looking up the KWF Diksiyonaryo, and I can found some entries where it's clear an English or Spanish derivation is possible, but the strong influence of Spanish today can still muddle their real roots. That's certainly the case for telebisyon, but justifying a Spanish derivation only if the concept already existed in Spain at the time of borrowing should be stopped, so is claiming all that many recent Spanish borrowings are mere "Hispanization" of English (which is only true with "siyokoy" terms like "aspeto", "magretiro", where they don't exist in Spanish or is a false friend; otherwise, it's a myth). Historical context is important for determining the origin of a borrowing, but it's not necessary, and we Filipinos still continue to borrow from Spanish ever since, due to its heavily phonetic spelling and not just for its historical influence in the Philippine languages. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 23:35, 26 October 2021 (UTC)Reply