Talk:tingo
Rapa Nui
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Rfv-sense - Pascuense verb. Seems unlikely. SemperBlotto 13:22, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- See The Meaning of Tingo by Adam Jacot de Boinod, page 95. ISD 13:52, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- That's a mention - not a use. SemperBlotto 13:56, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- Do we have a language code for that? What is it? Mglovesfun (talk) 15:28, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- That's a mention - not a use. SemperBlotto 13:56, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
{{rap}}. —RuakhTALK 15:31, 22 October 2009 (UTC)- Yep, I just added it. Mglovesfun (talk) 15:32, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- The non existence of www.google.rap is going to pose an enormous problem. Mglovesfun (talk) 18:03, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
- Yep, I just added it. Mglovesfun (talk) 15:32, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- Failed, Rapa Nui sense removed. Mglovesfun (talk) 19:06, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
Request for verification (2)
The following information has failed Wiktionary's verification process.
Failure to be verified means that insufficient eligible citations of this usage have been found, and the entry therefore does not meet Wiktionary inclusion criteria at the present time. We have archived here the disputed information, the verification discussion, and any documentation gathered so far, pending further evidence.
Do not re-add this information to the article without also submitting proof that it meets Wiktionary's criteria for inclusion.
WT:CFI states that for languages with poor documentation, "the community of editors for that language should maintain a list of materials deemed appropriate ". I am the community of editors for Rapa Nui, and although I have not compiled a list, it can be boiled down to the following: anything written by a knowledgeable linguist (like de Feu), by someone who speaks Rapa Nui or is demonstrably knowledgeable about the island, or by someone who has done thorough research (possibly Jared Diamond et al.). This word was featured in The Meaning of Tingo, a book of fascinating words from the world's languages that unfortunately misconstrues, misspells, or misunderstands more words than it gets right. Unless a "good" mention or use can be found, not derivative from that work, I would be glad to see the entry deleted. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:45, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
- Well, it has already failed once, see Talk:tingo. It really should be speedily deleted, unless we consider The Meaning of Tingo: And Other Extraordinary Words From Around the World to be an appropriate source for a mention. Mglovesfun (talk) 16:38, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
- I didn't notice that. Speedied. I have watchlisted the page; hopefully it won't be re-added any time soon. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:57, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
Supporting evidence
The original author that introduced tingo to the English-speaking world was presumably Grant McCall, an American professor of anthropology and former director of the University of New South Wales' Centre for South Pacific Studies, who referred to the concept in his 1980 paper Kinship and Association in Rapanui Reciprocity. Subsequently, Howard Rheingold described the term at greater length in his 2000 book They Have a Word for it. I am willing to contact both McCall and Rheingold to substantiate this entry if necessary. — C M B J 06:02, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
- That's not evidence. Rheingold is just like The Meaning of Tingo; it cares more about entertainment than accuracy. Not a scholarly work by any means. McCall doesn't identify part of speech, definition, or really anything of lexicographical value; I don't see how we could base a dictionary entry off of that. Don't you think there's a reason that you can't find it in any lexicon or wordlist devoted to Rapa Nui? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 15:31, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
- I found a dictionary which contains the Pascuense word tingo (yay!). You will be disappointed to see it has a much more generic meaning. — Ungoliant (Falai) 05:04, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
- Glory be! Whence came thou by that source? Hast thou it in thy holdings, or be it but in a library to which thou hast admission? Canst thou find a version electronic? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:11, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
- Found it in some Chilean site: . BTW, are you familiar at all with Rapa Nui pronunciation? If we add one it goes straight to FWOTD. — Ungoliant (Falai) 05:16, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
- I wouldn't so quickly toss out the meaning that McCall, Rheingold, and Jacot de Boinod ascribe to the word, but I'm glad to see tingo's existence confirmed in any form. I'll consult someone who lives/lived on the island to see what their thoughts are on the various definitions and on pronunciation. — C M B J 05:46, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
- I found enough resources to figure out the pronunciation; luckily the dictionary uses the acute accent to mark oxytones. — Ungoliant (Falai) 06:07, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
- I’m afraid having someone verbally confirm a certain meaning won’t be enough, as we require published references. — Ungoliant (Falai) 06:09, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
- See above: "WT:CFI states that for languages with poor documentation, 'the community of editors for that language should maintain a list of materials deemed appropriate '. I am the community of editors for Rapa Nui, and although I have not compiled a list, it can be boiled down to the following: anything written by a knowledgeable linguist, by someone who speaks Rapa Nui or is demonstrably knowledgeable about the island, or by someone who has done thorough research." — C M B J 06:32, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, that’s “anything written ... by someone who speaks Rapa Nui or is demonstrably knowledgeable about the island”, and by anything written, he means written and durably published, considering that a recent attempt to allow content from websites failed. — Ungoliant (Falai) 06:36, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not going to put words in his mouth since he's here and a part of this discussion, but the "or" makes clear that this is definitely a misrepresentation of what was written above. Regardless, we already have three written and durably published references, and confirmation would be only of their veracity — which is the sole point of contention here. — C M B J
- Actually, Ungoliant's interpretation is correct as regards my intent when I wrote that. BTW, I could've supplied the pronunciation for you (it's definitely correct). CMBJ, what Mglovesfun said below was rather rude in my opinion, and I hope you don't take it personally, but I can see how this might be frustrating to him; I've already explained above why those two of those three are not trustworthy and why McCall is simply unhelpful. However, please note that I will probably not be a part of this discussion much longer, as I do not expect to have regular internet access during the rest of my travels this month. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 14:24, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not going to put words in his mouth since he's here and a part of this discussion, but the "or" makes clear that this is definitely a misrepresentation of what was written above. Regardless, we already have three written and durably published references, and confirmation would be only of their veracity — which is the sole point of contention here. — C M B J
- Yes, that’s “anything written ... by someone who speaks Rapa Nui or is demonstrably knowledgeable about the island”, and by anything written, he means written and durably published, considering that a recent attempt to allow content from websites failed. — Ungoliant (Falai) 06:36, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
- See above: "WT:CFI states that for languages with poor documentation, 'the community of editors for that language should maintain a list of materials deemed appropriate '. I am the community of editors for Rapa Nui, and although I have not compiled a list, it can be boiled down to the following: anything written by a knowledgeable linguist, by someone who speaks Rapa Nui or is demonstrably knowledgeable about the island, or by someone who has done thorough research." — C M B J 06:32, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
- Glory be! Whence came thou by that source? Hast thou it in thy holdings, or be it but in a library to which thou hast admission? Canst thou find a version electronic? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:11, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
- CMBJ, here's a tip. If you don't know what you're talking about, stop talking. Or become better informed, please! You come across as a Wikipedian trying to get round the rules for his own personal reasons. I'd suggest if you have nothing relevant to say, say nothing. Mglovesfun (talk) 09:08, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Mentions and usage
Kinship and Association in Rapanui Reciprocity (1980)
The expression of aroha through reciprocity is not without its restraints. A system based purely upon reputed affection could be abused by the unscrupulous who might make excessive demands (tingo). Prevention of the abuse of aroha is contained in the notion of respect (mo'a).
Diccionario Etimológico Rapanui-Español (2000)
Tingo. tr. Sacar el máximo de cosas.
They Have a Word for it (2000)
hakamaroo and tingo (Pascuense, Easter Island)
Outrageously aggressive or subtly flattering borrowing behavior.
The comic-strip antics of Dagwood Bumstead and his long-suffering neighbor, Herb Woodley, are classic antiheroic themes of American pop mythology. Objects, mostly tools, that Dagwood and Herb borrow from each other and fail to return are the recurrent triggering elements in an endless series of plots that always end up in fist-swinging melees. At this level, the concept of outrageous borrowing as a form of social aggression is well known to most English-speaking people. But we don't have specific words for different kinds of outrageous borrowing. Nor does English have a word for borrowing as a positive social act, a subtle form of flattery and homage.
Indeed, in today's mobile American society, the idea of staying in the same place long enough to borrow something from your neighbor has a hint of nostalgia to it. The inhabitants of Easter Island, members of an extremely isolated and geographically immobile society, use the word hakamaroo (hah-kah-mahr-OH-oh) to describe the act of keeping borrowed objects until the owner has to ask for them back. As Dagwood and Herb know, hakamaroo is only the first step on a sophisticated hierarchy of escalating affronts. Psychoanalysts might describe such behavior as "passive-aggressive." And while it might be funny in a comic strip, in real life hakamaroo is usually part of a larger, painful pattern of hostility. Putting a name to it might help people resolve or avert this kind of silent aggression: "Herb," a real-life Dagwood might say, "this is the second garden tool you've borrowed this month. And you haven't returned my rake yet. Are you being forgetful? Or is this some kind of hakamaroo?"
Borrowing is not always hostile on Easter Island; indeed, it can serve as a kind of social glue. Another Pascuense word, tingo (rhymes with "bingo"), carries the concept a step further, into a strange borderland between breach of etiquette and high praise: Tingo means to take all the objects one desires from the house of a friend, one at a time, by asking to borrow them. The social meaning of this behavior is similar to the Haida word potlatch, which refers to an act of giving that confers social status on the gift-giver (see chapter five for more about potlatch). If you admire a friend's possession long enough to ask for it, you are paying the donor a supreme compliment; the act of giving it to you is a power exchange that enhances the donor's social status.
Perhaps if we adopted the custom of tingo and used the word openly to refer to it, a new awareness of the power of possessions might catch on. The currently popular way of life dedicated to the relentless pursuit of new cars, bigger houses, more powerful appliances—status symbols—followed by the ritual display of these symbolic objects and accompanying symbolic boasting, might grow into something wonderfully different if people toyed with the idea. "John," you might say, "I'm overcome with admiration for your beautiful new toaster . I'm afraid I must ask for tingo.
The Meaning of Tingo (2005)
Indonesian has the word pembonceng to describe someone who likes to use other people's facilities, but the Pascuense language of Easter Island has gone one step further in showing how the truly unscrupulous exploit friends and family. Tingo is to borrow things from a friend's house, one by one, until there's nothing left; while hakamaroo is to keep borrowed objects until the owner has to ask for them back.
An analysis of Portuguese terms in The Meaning of Tingo
I just analysed the Portuguese words mentioned in The Meaning of Tingo. There weren’t many, but the quantity of mistakes was astounding: two words listed as false friends have the same primary meaning as their English friend (the author added glosses for secondary meanings). One of them had an incorrect meaning (a mashup two real meanings). One of them was a dictionary-only word. Even of those which were correct, most did have one- or two-word English equivalents. But it’s the overspecific meanings that draw parallels with tingo:
- “sacanagem (Brazilian Portuguese): the practice of openly seeking sexual pleasure with one or more partners other than one’s primary partner (during Mardi Gras)”
- nope, just any form of sexual depravaty, as in revista de sacanagem (magazine of sexual depravity, i.e. porn magazine);
- “jeito (Brazilian Portuguese): to find a way to get something done, no matter what the obstacles”
- nope, it is a noun meaning way, as in “jeito de fazer as coisas” (way of doing things). The correct would be “dar um jeito/jeitinho”, which is not that special, since English has “to find a way (out)”
- “grilagem (Brazilian Portuguese): the old practice of putting a cricket in a box of newly faked documents, until the moving insect’s excrement makes the papers look plausibly old and genuine”
- nope, it means falsification of land titles in general. The idea of putting crickets in a box with the forged documents is the word’s (probably folk) etymology, not its meaning.
- “catadeira (Portuguese): a woman who culls coffee beans by hand”
- nope, a woman who (or machine which) picks anything, as in catadeira de algodão (cotton picker). In fairness, this one is also found in dictionaries.
- “espreitadeira (Portuguese): a woman who spies on her neighbours”
- nope, a woman who spies on anything.
So, in a nutshell:
- “sexual depravity” becomes “the practice of openly seeking sexual pleasure with one or more partners other than one’s primary partner (during Mardi Gras)”
- “way” becomes “to find a way to get something done, no matter what the obstacles”
- “land title falsification” becomes “the old practice of putting a cricket in a box of newly faked documents, until the moving insect’s excrement makes the papers look plausibly old and genuine (literally, cricketing)”
- “picker” becomes “a woman who culls coffee beans by hand”
- “spy/peeper” becomes “a woman who spies on her neighbours”
In retrospect, it’s no wonder at all that “to extract or haul as much as possible” became “to borrow things from a friend’s house, one by one, until there’s nothing left”.
— Ungoliant (Falai) 22:45, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
- There's some chance that these words have additional idiomatic meanings in certain regions where Portuguese is spoken, say, in one of the African, Brazilian, or European dialects. Cotton picker is an example of this in English, particularly the Southern AmE dialects, in which it now almost exclusively means a specific racial slur. If we cannot prove that to be the case, though, we can agree to discount this book as a precaution. — C M B J 00:57, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
References
- ^ McCall, Grant (1980) “Kinship and Association in Rapanui Reciprocity”, in Pacific Studies, volume 3, number 2 (PDF), page 11 The expression of aroha through reciprocity is not without its restraints. A system based purely upon reputed affection could be abused by the unscrupulous who might make excessive demands (tingo). Prevention of the abuse of aroha is contained in the notion of respect (mo‘a).
- ^ Howard Rheingold (2000) They Have a Word for it: A Lighthearted Lexicon of Untranslatable Words and Phrases, →ISBN, pages 18-20 Another Pascuense word, tingo (rhymes with "bingo"), carries the concept a step further, into a strange borderland between breach of etiquette and high praise: Tingo means to take all the objects one desires from the house of a friend, one at a time, by asking to borrow them. The social meaning of this behavior is similar to the Haida word potlach, which refers to an act of giving that confers social status on the gift-giver.
Request for verification (3)
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Rapa Nui: "to extract or haul as much as possible". WT:CFI actually says for mentions "the community of editors for that language should maintain a list of materials deemed appropriate as the only sources for entries based on a single mention". So we need to decide if this source is acceptable for a mention-only citation. Wiktionary:About Rapa Nui would seem to be the place to document such a list, and currently there isn't one. Mglovesfun (talk) 09:13, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
- I should note that the reference supporting the current definition is an actual Rapa Nui dictionary compiled by a linguistic commission (whose director is an Easter Island native) and published by a university press, not an entertainment book about untranslatable words. — Ungoliant (Falai) 11:41, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not arguing to exclude it, so much as currently we don't include it. Mglovesfun (talk) 11:43, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
- I know, I just said it so that if the Rapa Nui editing community (= Metaknowledge) doesn’t show up, the rest of us will be able to judge it from that. — Ungoliant (Falai) 12:11, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not arguing to exclude it, so much as currently we don't include it. Mglovesfun (talk) 11:43, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
- The dictionary is now mentioned in WT:About Rapa Nui. — Ungoliant (Falai) 15:10, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
- Close debate? Mglovesfun (talk) 16:58, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
- Closed as kept. I can hardly believe it, but this is legitimately the third time this damn word has been RFV'd. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:31, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
- Like Tolkien used to say, third time pays for all :-) Although, in fairness, the current definition is different from the previous ones. — Ungoliant (Falai) 19:04, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
- Closed as kept. I can hardly believe it, but this is legitimately the third time this damn word has been RFV'd. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:31, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
- Close debate? Mglovesfun (talk) 16:58, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Latin
tingō/tinguō
A number of Latin dictionaries offer 'tinguō' as a variant, although it is not mentioned here. What is the explanation for the variation?--92.235.94.230 12:29, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
- No, it's mentioned, as an alternative form. See tinguo. The variation between ngu and ng occurs in other words, such as ninguit/ningit and unguo/ungo. Etymologically, Proto-Indo_European *gʷ is changed to something else just about everywhere in Latin except after n, so this may be due to uneven application of the same processes to that environment as well. You'll also notice that the u/v disappears when followed by a consonant, as in the perfect participle tinctus.Chuck Entz (talk) 14:08, 17 July 2013 (UTC)