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These are link templates for Greek that show transliterations as a tooltip instead of displaying them on the page. e.g. Template:el-link-ttip instead of αυτοκίνητο(aftokínito). Several disadvantages here:
They are extremely basic (i.e. other than the transliteration, they don't call into Lua at all). That means they lack many of the features most users expect from link templates.
They are nonstandard by comparison to every other link template, and provide no indication that the transliteration is in a tooltip. That means many (most?) users won't realise it's there.
They can't remove diacritics for Greek, so any links that contain them will break (unlike the standard link template).
They are useless for mobile, where tooltips usually don't work.
It's not clear whether these are supposed to be used in place of {{l}} or {{m}}.
They're part of a language-specific ecosystem that's an extra maintenance headache for no real benefit.
We should replace all instances of these with normal link templates. If transliterations need to be suppressed, then that's fine, but we should not be using these kinds of weird bespoke templates. Pinging @Saltmarsh, who made these. Theknightwho (talk) 01:26, 22 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
I'm sorry that you don't like these templates @Theknightwho.
Where possible transliteration is introduced to help users unfamiliar with a foreign script. In many places where space in a table is limited these templates enable transliterations to be available, admittedly hidden but there for the curious. Our headword template uses similar bullets to indicate the transliteration there: viz. καΐκι• (kaḯki) m.
The templates were written for Standard Modern Greek (SMG) entries and only intended for use there, and then ONLY within templates and specialist tables, note that such pages would only be edited by someone with experience.
There are many situations where transliterations of long words create a space problem, it was felt that any transliteration was better than none. (The standard headword template used just such a character to help users.
You list several "disadvantages" of these templates:
They are extremely basic — I could say "so what!" — their use is limited as stated above, most editors will not need to use them.
(most?) users won't realise it's there — I have covered this above.
They can't remove diacritics for Greek — this is wrong, see examples above, SMG is limited to a single stress or diaresis. They are not intended for Ancient Greek or Katharevousa.
They are useless for mobile — OK a shortcoming.
It's not clear… to be used in place of {{l}} or {{m}} — I hope that I have clarified this above..
They're part of a language-specific ecosystem that's an extra maintenance headache for no real benefit. — Well I believe there is a benefit and I question your use of "weird", their structure is easily understood. If maintenance ever became an issue a solution could be sought then.
The mobile issue alone is significant enough that we shouldn’t be using these templates.
The nonstandard layout is confusing for readers, not just editors.
Saying they’re only used in specific situations actually makes things worse, because that creates a mish-mash of layouts.
The major problem with being simple is that users will not be expecting that, so will assume diacritics are removed (and modern Greek does occasionally use them). I see these are used in declension templates, which means they’re functionally useless if the headword has an extra diacritic, because links to inflectional forms won’t work.
You mention katharevousa, but it actually comes under the Greek language code, yet these templates cannot be used with it for the above reason. That is a serious problem.
You created these templates quite recently, and long after the normal link templates were well-established, which means they can't be grandfathered in as pre-dating the usual templates.
It is absolutely possible to handle transliterations comfortably in tables - see how a language like Russian handles them.
It is really misleading to compare this approach to the headword template, which uses the bullet as a link to the transliteration scheme. That’s very different.
Please reconsider this approach, as having tons of minor, bespoke templates used in piecemeal ways is a barrier of entry to editors. I notice the exact same issue came up with Greek headword templates in the past, and it was only solved there due to a bot doing a mass replacement. We should do something similar with these. Theknightwho (talk) 11:35, 22 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
RFD-deleted. I've replaced the few uses directly in entries with {{l}} or {{m}}. The uses in the noun declension tables were replaced with plain {{l-self}}, but this can't be done in the adjective tables, as this will cause some tables to become too wide. We need something like what is done for Ancient Greek and Russian. I'm working on it. This, that and the other (talk) 07:48, 22 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
