Template talk:ja-na

I propose we change {{ja-na}} since 形容動詞 (keiyōdōshi) do not actually conjugate. Instead, the copula conjugates, e.g. だ (da), です (desu), or である (de aru). This template misleadingly suggests that the 形容動詞 (keiyōdōshi) itself conjugates.

This template unnecessarily blurs the grammatical distinction between 形容詞 (keiyōshi) and 形容動詞 (keiyōdōshi). It further confuses the reader because it does not show that correct form depends on which copula is selected.

I suggest we change this template to look more like User:Rodasmith/ja-na, which more clearly shows three things:

• Each 形容動詞 (keiyōdōshi) itself is inert.
• Appended particles affect the word's function.
• For predicative use, a copula must be appended and inflected.

Compare 静か (existing) with 平安 (proposal) to see the my suggestion. Rod (☎ Smith) 06:09, 11 May 2006 (UTC)Reply

Hello Rod --

While I very much like the new proposed heading of Adjectival noun, as this is very much tidier than a number of the other possible formats I've seen, it is sadly flawed in that it is misleading -- though the example at 平安 works very nicely, applying the same to 静か would not work very well, for while 平安 is indeed a noun in and of itself, 静か is not. In fact, the only quality of "noun-ness", if you will, in the word 静か is the similarity in how it declines.

This could well be the big rub when it comes to easily categorizing the 形容動詞 using English terminology. Some such words can function as stand-alone nouns, while others cannot and require the suffix -さ, such as 静かさ "silence". Though 平安 can take the -さ suffix, this creates a form more like "peacefulness" rather than simply the noun form. Consequently, I think it's still best to split the parts of speech for 形容動詞, so that Noun is separate from any Adjective heading. Either that, or make some allowance for this in the declension table, but I can't think how to do so without getting convoluted.

In fact, I've been very puzzled by the trouble the linguistic community seems to have with 形容動詞. Many arguments seem to run along the lines that, since 形容動詞 do not conjugate like 形容詞, somehow they're not really adjectives. This frankly loses me. What is an adjective, after all, but a word that modifies a noun or nominal phrase, and that cannot be used as complete predicate? And is this not, after all, what 形容動詞 do? If anything, it would seem to make more sense to describe 形容詞 as stative verbs, and 形容動詞 as adjectives. (For that matter, I've also always been puzzled about the "動詞" part of 形容動詞, and have yet to find a real explanation in either English or Japanese...) Or simply use the Japanese 101 terminology -- "i-adjectives" and "na-adjectives".  :)

Must run, but I hope this dialogue proves fruitful -- Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 23:28, 15 May 2006 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the feedback. I split up the noun and adjectival noun senses of "平安" and applied the proposed template to the typical adjectival noun "静か". It seems to work well there, too. Please let me know if it looks wrong in any way. Rod (A. Smith) 16:12, 17 May 2006 (UTC)Reply

The only thing I can see to change is the example for 静か -- the current sample sentence uses the adverbial form, which might be slightly confusing given that the section heading line shows 静かな. I'll make the change.  :) Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 18:15, 17 May 2006 (UTC)Reply

Good. A minor point, but would you mind my re-adding the adverbial usage example in addition to your attributive example? 静か is such a typical example of a na-adjective that it might be nice to show it used both as an adjective and as an adverb. Rod (A. Smith) 19:45, 17 May 2006 (UTC)Reply

Looks like you beat me to it while I was out at lunch. I agree though, having both examples is better. My initial concern was that in not having the な usage on what sets out to be a な adjective page, things might look kinda funny for a Japanese beginner. But then by the same token, we're better off with both -- I just hadn't thought that far ahead initially. So thanks for re-adding the に example. Cheers, Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 20:28, 17 May 2006 (UTC)Reply

As mentioned in Template talk:ja-decl-na, this template shows the full declension of the headword, so it should be renamed to {{ja-decl-na}}. The template name {{ja-na}} should be used for a template that appears before definitions to provide brief grammar details and a few key forms of the headword, like {{en-verb}} and friends. Rod (A. Smith) 00:52, 26 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

The template needs some serious work to more gracefully handle adjectives that have no kanji, such as スケルタルな or ヘンテコ or でぶでぶ (which I'm now adding). In the current setup, katakana adjectives wind up with katakana, hiragana, then romaji columns, which looks ... inelegant. Meanwhile, hiragana adjectives wind up with hiragana, hiragana, and romaji columns, which is beyond inelegant. I propose adding in logic like {{#if:{{{2|}}}| ... code when hiragana arg exists ...}} to handle cases where we might not want an additional hiragana column to even appear, such as with headword entries that are already in kana. Does anyone have any argument against doing so? -- Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 17:01, 24 August 2011 (UTC)Reply

We also need a new argument to handle irregular forms, such as 静けさ, which the current template erroneously renders as 静かさ. -- Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 21:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)Reply

Well, I said "erroneously", but there are enough hits for google:静かさ to convince me that this is a valid form. It does bear noting, however, that google:静けさ gets about five times as many hits. -- Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 21:57, 25 August 2011 (UTC)Reply

The expressions get scrunched up really badly when they get longer than five characters, and the effect is really nasty on small devices smartphones. For example, エネルギッシュ. Meanwhile, the two columns on the left have all the space in the world. The one on the far left gets a lot of space for a distinction that doesn't really matter and which nobody cares about (Stem forms vs. Key constructions.) The same goes for {{ja-i}} and the conjugation templates. --Haplology (talk) 03:40, 29 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

I'd forgotten about my comment above; thanks for reminding me.  :)

About the column widths, I tried tweaking to use percentages instead of hard-coded widths. It seems to work a bit better on narrow screens, but the JA text columns will happily get really skinny, since the JA can go vertical, while the EN & rom columns will only get as skinny as the longest single word.

Have a look and let me know if that works well enough for you. If it's still too ugly, I can try reworking at least the left-most column to make the EN text vertical too. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 06:33, 29 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

• PS -- I made the change in the underlying template, {{ja-adjdecl}}, so it should affect both {{ja-na}} and {{ja-i}}. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 06:33, 29 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for taking a look at it again. It's true that if JA text is only one column wide, it looks fine. The declension table of エネルギッシュ looks good now on my PC, but it's very hard to read on my smartphone. Even a short term like 変 is a bit hard to read. How about making "Key constructions" a row of its own? I think "Key forms" is sort of implied, but if it's helpful then I'd put it on its own row too. --Haplology (talk) 07:39, 29 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

PS: Maybe these are all issues for when the template gets converted to Lua. Until the template is made more intelligent, no format will work perfectly for every device. That would be a good time to address the issue of 2-script entries.--Haplology (talk) 08:29, 29 March 2013 (UTC)Reply