Template talk:quote-meta

Is without effect, it only adds a comma. @Sgconlaw, Erutuon. Example: Quote of Nadīm al-jābirī in تَخَبُّط (taḵabbuṭ). Palaestrator verborum ^{sis loquier 🗣} 16:24, 12 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

|quotee= can only be used together with one of the |author= parameters, because you are indicating that the author is quoting someone else. — SGconlaw (talk) 16:38, 12 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Sgconlaw Or I want to indicate that the newspaper quotes someone. The journalist does not matter and is often unknown. Palaestrator verborum ^{sis loquier 🗣} 16:40, 12 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

A temporary workaround is to use the |author= parameter like this: |author=quoting . It will take some time to change the behaviour of the template because I need to figure out a way to eliminate the comma before "quoting" if |author= is not used. — SGconlaw (talk) 16:45, 12 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

Links are displaced in a bugged way in {{quote-book}} but not {{quote-journal}} if the text is completely in a RTL language and I don’t add a bidirectional control character. Only change the Quote of Nadīm al-jābirī in تَخَبُّط (taḵabbuṭ) to {{quote-book}} and you see it. Palaestrator verborum ^{sis loquier 🗣} 16:24, 12 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

I'm not sure why this should happen. Both {{quote-book}} and {{quote-journal}} rely on {{quote-meta/source}}. @Erutuon, perhaps you can figure out what's wrong. — SGconlaw (talk) 16:43, 12 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

It helps to look at the resulting wikicode of both templates side-by-side with Special:ExpandTemplates. {{quote-book}} doesn't have the |work= parameter, so "The Baghdad Post" isn't displayed between the quotation and the link. It seems that the lack of separation between the right-to-left quotation and the link is what's causing the problem. The text produced by the link syntax contains a punctuation character, which is affected by the text direction of the stuff around it. Putting the left-to-right mark (‎) immediately to the left of the <sup></sup> part fixes it. See below for the wikicode copied from ExpandTemplates and the fix. — Eru·tuon 06:09, 13 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

Wikicode

from {{quote-journal}}

• 2018 January 12,, “الجابري: تسجيل التحالفات لخوض الانتخابات المقبلة بيّن حجم الخلافات الواضحة في التحالف الشيعي”, in The Baghdad Post:

from {{quote-book}}

• 2018 January 12,, الجابري: تسجيل التحالفات لخوض الانتخابات المقبلة بيّن حجم الخلافات الواضحة في التحالف الشيعي:

Fix

addition of ‎:

• 2018 January 12,, الجابري: تسجيل التحالفات لخوض الانتخابات المقبلة بيّن حجم الخلافات الواضحة في التحالف الشيعي‎:

Thanks. Am I right in saying this isn't something we can fix in {{quote-meta/source}} at the moment, since we don't know whether the template is being used with a right-to-left language or not? — SGconlaw (talk) 06:16, 13 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

Well, if there's no way to detect the direction of the script, you could add the left-to-right mark no matter what. It doesn't hurt anything display-wise when it's next to left-to-right characters; it's just inelegant to add it when it isn't needed. — Eru·tuon 06:30, 13 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, that would be an easy, temporary fix. — SGconlaw (talk) 06:42, 13 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

Can we add a variation for quoting plays, movie/television scripts, etc.? I have used quote-book in the past but that isn't quite right for many cases. - TheDaveRoss 19:14, 12 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

Could you identify the additional or different parameters which would be needed? — SGconlaw (talk) 19:50, 12 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

The main ones I was thinking of were act/scene and perhaps the character or speaker of the lines. There may be others, hence bringing it up for discussion in case there are things I am not thinking of. - TheDaveRoss 19:52, 12 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

Discussion moved from User talk:Sgconlaw#Template:quote-book.

Hi. I've just noticed that quotations in foreign language entries look kind of strange since you've removed the language2 and lang2 parameters, and I know absolutely nothing more about this. Examples:
in Hungarian: lénia
in Czech: okotěška
Can you look into it, please?--94.21.176.210 19:26, 19 December 2018 (UTC)Reply

Thanks. Looks like there is a missing parenthesis somewhere. I’ll check. — SGconlaw (talk) 22:22, 19 December 2018 (UTC)Reply

 Done. OK, I think the issue is now fixed. — SGconlaw (talk) 03:16, 20 December 2018 (UTC)Reply

Discussion moved from User talk:Sgconlaw.

A few things that could be added or changed:

1. t for translation in addition to translation, for consistency with other templates, e.g. {{ux}}, {{quote}}.
2. tr for transliteration in addition to transliteration, for consistency with other templates, e.g. {{ux}}, {{quote}}.
3. year_translated. I recently added an example of this to the first quote in возня (voznja) because the information was available; it was written by Vladimir Nabokov in 1935 and translated by his son Dmitri Nabokov in 1959. IMO it would be useful to display this info if present.
4. A way of rendering the author in both the source script and English. Currently I've just wedged both into the author param, but there should be a better way.
5. We could easily port over some additional features from {{quote}} now that the engine for that template underlies the quote-* templates. Examples are q / q2 / qualifier / qualifier2 and ref. Not sure how useful ref is but it might be useful.

Benwing2 (talk) 05:03, 4 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

Also, what's the proper way of specifying a reference to a poem or short story? An example is in волнение (volnenije), a reference to the Chekhov short story "The Chorus Girl". I just put it as the title, but that causes the title to be italicized when as a short story it should be put in quotes. Benwing2 (talk) 05:08, 4 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

BTW, in вразвалку (vrazvalku) there's another reference to a Chekhov short story, but in this case the name of the collection was apparently provided, so I stuck that in title and put the short story name in chapter. Correct? Benwing2 (talk) 05:18, 4 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

One more thing, sorry to keep bothering you ... take a look at демшиза (demšiza), the lay summary has the summary followed by the words "lay summary", which seems wrong. Can these words be removed? Benwing2 (talk) 06:50, 4 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

@Benwing2: wow, a lot of issues. Let me see:

• Using |t= as a synonym for |translation= and |tr= for |transliteration= – shouldn't be an issue.
• The parameter |year_translated= – is this really needed? The translated work could be specified using the |title2=, |location2=, |publisher2=, etc., parameters.
• Rendering the author in both the source script and English – we could create a parameter called |trans-author= to indicate a translated author's name. However, is it necessary to also create |trans-author2=, |trans-last=, |trans-first=, and so on? That will add a lot of bulk to the template.
• The parameters |qualifier= and |ref= – not really sure if it would be helpful to use this parameters together with the quotation templates, though I suppose if they are already available we could activate them and see. I suspect |qualifier= would be more useful than |ref=.
• Quoting a poem or short story – an actual book containing the poem or short story should be quoted from, rather than just specifying a poem or short story in isolation. Then the name of the poem or short story can be specified using |chapter= and the book title using |title=, as you pointed out.
• Lay summary – I've not used this parameter before. Let me have a look.
  • I think one is supposed to provide an external URL containing the lay summary, and not to type the entire summary out.

— SGconlaw (talk) 15:28, 4 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

@Sgconlaw Thanks for the responses. My comments:

(1) I'll go ahead and add |tr= and |t=.

(2) Sometimes the |year_translated= field seems important to me, e.g. if there are multiple editions or for general ease in finding the book in an index. I didn't know about |title2=, |location2=, etc.

(3) I'm not sure about the need for |trans-author2=, |trans-last=, etc. There's some logic however to having |trans-*= and |lang-*= params for all params that specify text that might be in a foreign language. This is something that would be easy to handle in Lua. It might make sense in any case to rewrite the template code in Lua; it would eliminate arbitrary restrictions such as having only five possible authors and two of most other params, would simplify the hella-complex template code in {{quote-meta/source}}, and would probably be easier to modify.

(4) I agree that |ref= might not be useful as there's already |url= and such, but |qualifier= might be useful, similar to how it's useful in usexes to indicate e.g. a proverb or whatever.

(5) I agree that in theory the title of the containing book should be given, but sometimes this isn't known or available. Is it possible to use just |chapter= by itself? Also, will it correctly put the poem or short story title in double quotes, or will it leave it unformatted, as with numbered chapters? If the latter, is there another param that does include double quotes?

(6) I put the text "about Anna Politkovskaya" in the lay summary param because it was present in the original manually-formatted text and it seems useful to include it. Perhaps this is something where |qualifier= or an equivalent for the header can be used.

Benwing2 (talk) 01:07, 5 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

Repinging @Sgconlaw because I'm not sure pings work when multiple paragraphs separate the ping from the signature (I didn't receive your {{reply}} ping, for example). Benwing2 (talk) 01:08, 5 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

Note, I noticed that the templates support |text= as an alias for |passage=. I think that |text= is a more intuitive as well as a shorter name for what's surely the most important parameter of all, so I took the liberty of documenting |text= and changing the documentation to reference this as the preferred name instead of |passage=. Hope this is OK. Benwing2 (talk) 01:41, 5 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

Yes, the original ping worked. The templates take both |passage= and |text= as this was needed to make the various quotation templates compatible with each other at the time I started to work on them. — SGconlaw (talk) 02:25, 5 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ @Benwing2: to respond to point 5 above, I think it is possible to just use |chapter= alone if |notitle=1 or |notitle=yes is specified. It doesn't appear that this parameter is documented; can't recall why. — SGconlaw (talk) 18:26, 6 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

@Benwing2 Integrating Module:usex is a good idea, but it also seems to have unintended side effects with quotes that used templates within |passage=—see Japanese 創造主 for an example. (；´∀｀) I'm not sure how these should be cleaned up.

(FWIW, I support using |passage= as infrequently as possible. I'm not sure it's always necessary: this works fine for me. Food for thought? I've mentioned this in the past.)

—Suzukaze-c◇◇ 02:43, 5 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

@Suzukaze-c Yes, using {{ux}} or similar along with {{quote-book}} etc. for only the heading also works. As for the example you cited, the way {{ux}}/{{usex}}/{{quote}} work is to require a translation param for foreign languages, and to insert the "(please add an English translation of this quote)" if not supplied. I can make the code not display this text when used in conjunction with {{quote-meta}}, but this use of {{ja-usex}} inside the |text= param (or numbered equivalent) seems strange to me. There are several alternatives:

1. Require that the use of {{ja-usex}} inside of |passage=/|text=/|6= be accompanied with |t=- to turn off the translation message (and implement support for this if it's not there already, which would be easy). Use a bot to add this param to existing uses of {{ja-usex}} inside of |passage=/etc.
2. Use a bot to rewrite calls with {{ja-usex}} inside of |passage=/etc. to instead use the "this works fine for me" method that you mention above, and simply mandate that {{ja-usex}} not be placed inside of |passage=/etc. (This might be the simplest and most practical option.)
3. It's difficult (but not impossible) for Module:usex to detect the use of {{ja-usex}} inside of it; inner template expansion occurs before outer template expansion, so we'd have to do something hacky like modifying {{ja-usex}} to surround all the output with <span class="ja-usex">...</span> (or maybe <div class="ja-usex">...</div>, whichever one has no practical HTML effect), and have Module:usex check specially for this placeholder HTML.
4. Create templates like {{ja-quote-book}} etc. that themselves take the extra params of {{ja-usex}} and which call Module:ja-usex to do the actual usex display. Then use a bot to replace uses of {{ja-usex}} inside of |passage=/etc. to use {{ja-quote-book}} etc.

Thoughts? Benwing2 (talk) 03:19, 5 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

@Benwing2: I think that 2 is most elegant (as I have :p). —Suzukaze-c◇◇ 22:46, 5 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

@Suzukaze-c Cool, I'll do that work soon. Benwing2 (talk) 14:21, 6 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

@Suzukaze-c This should be all done, except for the following pages, which my script refused to process, probably because the quote doesn't begin with #*, ##*, or ###*: 挑戦, 振る舞う, Citations:イルミネーション, 仕舞い, ご機嫌, 不機嫌, Citations:イルミネーション, Citations:ドラゴン, Citations:天使 and ピストル. In particular, the last two citation pages listed have a bunch of rejected quote-* templates because they're preceded by *. Should the quote then be preceded by *:? Note that there are few enough exceptions here that they could easily be handled by hand. Benwing2 (talk) 01:57, 8 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

@Suzukaze-c I fixed the pages above that aren't citations pages. All of them had calls to {{quote-song}} preceded by #: so they weren't hidden; I converted them to use #* (hidden) and pulled the {{ja-usex}} out of |passage=. Not sure what to do with the citations pages, presumably they shouldn't be hidden. Benwing2 (talk) 02:03, 8 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

I don't think they can be hidden on citations pages in the first place. Can they? —Suzukaze-c◇◇ 02:05, 8 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

@Suzukaze-c No, maybe not; I seem to remember noticing that hiding doesn't work on User:* pages, etc. Benwing2 (talk) 02:12, 8 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

Discussion moved to Template talk:quote-book.

Hi, @Benwing2. A change that you have made is inserting a redundant space after the closing bracket when |brackets=on is used: see the 1849 and 1859 quotations in Juniperites, for example. Could you look into that? Thanks. — SGconlaw (talk) 03:27, 20 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

@Sgconlaw Should be fixed now. Benwing2 (talk) 03:48, 20 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

Thanks! — SGconlaw (talk) 03:54, 20 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

@Sgconlaw, Erutuon I have ported the big ugly Template:quote-meta/source to Lua, in Module:User:Benwing2/quote-meta. I've also ported {{quote-book}}, {{quote-journal}}, {{quote-song}} and {{quote-av}} to use the new module code; the ported versions are in {{User:Benwing2/quote-book}}, {{User:Benwing2/quote-journal}}, {{User:Benwing2/quote-song}}, {{User:Benwing2/quote-av}}. The module code should work like the original except in a few places where I found bugs in the original, e.g. in one place {{{url}}} was used when {{{archiveurl}}} should have been used, and there were some edge cases w.r.t. commas and such that weren't handled right esp. in the newversion=/translator2=/location2=/etc. stuff. Porting the remaining templates to use the module is easy; see the doc comment at the top of Module:User:Benwing2/quote-meta, and note that pass-through arguments from {{quote-*}} to Module:User:Benwing2/quote-meta are handled automatically so you don't need to specify them. I'd appreciate it if you guys esp. Sgconlaw could bang on these new templates with as many weird test cases as you can come up with, to make sure they work right. Thanks! Benwing2 (talk) 17:53, 28 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

BTW once the code is in Lua, extending it should be much easier, e.g. it would be easy to add trans-author= and/or to extend the use of newversion= so you could also have a newversion2= paired with title3/translator3/location3/etc. Benwing2 (talk) 17:58, 28 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

Wow, OK. (Guess this means I won't be involved in maintaining this template any more – at least until I learn how to use Lua … .) — SGconlaw (talk) 18:19, 28 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

@Sgconlaw If you are interested in learning Lua, this might be a good place as the code is fairly straightforward. Mostly it just directly converts the template code into Lua, but it reuses the code that implements chapter, title, isbn, issn, etc. to implement chapter2, title2, isbn2, issn2, etc. so anything that's supported in the main section will also be supported in the "newversion" section. If you're not interested in learning Lua you might still be able to make small fixes just by following the structure of the code, and for anything bigger, feel free to ask me or User:Erutuon. Note also that the remaining templates {{quote-book}}, {{quote-meta}}, etc. aren't (currently) in Lua and I don't have any current plans to convert them. Benwing2 (talk) 18:35, 28 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

Actually I have been wondering whether to try and pick up Lua. I might see if there are courses available where I live. Anyway, great job! — SGconlaw (talk) 18:40, 28 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

@Sgconlaw Thanks! Do you have any familiarity with any other programming languages, e.g. Python or Javascript? If so it should be easy to pick up Lua. Also, the stuff still needs testing. I've gone through the testcases in Template:quote-book/testcases and Template:quote-journal/testcases but there are surely more things to test esp. concerning newversion=/title2=/etc., the handling of Roman numerals, etc. Benwing2 (talk) 18:46, 28 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

I'm afraid not. The only "programming" I've been doing these past years has been wikitext. OK, will help with the testing when I can. — SGconlaw (talk) 18:49, 28 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

@Benwing2: is there a "testcases" page somewhere? — SGconlaw (talk) 03:01, 1 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

@Sgconlaw Just the testcases pages I mention above, along with the various documentation pages. To test them, I've been copying the text out of e.g. User:Benwing2/quote-book and pasting it into the edit window for e.g. Template:quote-book and then using the page preview feature at the bottom of the page. If you wanted to create a testcases page under e.g. User:Benwing2/quote-book/testcases or User:Sgconlaw/quote-book/testcases, that would be great. Benwing2 (talk) 03:08, 1 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

This is great and long overdue. I'm not sure if I will have any ideas for new testcases, but I will think about it. Unfortunately this will add to Lua memory usage. — Eru·tuon 05:05, 1 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

That is true but hopefully not much. The module is quite simple and doesn't really do anything except a bunch of if statements; only memory per se is for the arguments and the text being built up. Benwing2 (talk) 05:20, 1 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

Well, a number of pages are very close to the limit, so it won't take much to push them over. Invoking Module:quote in {{quote-book}} has pushed cloud and salt over. When I preview the page with the previous version of {{quote-book}}, cloud's at 48.75 MB and salt's at 49.9 MB. At least they can be fixed by moving translations to a subpage. I don't know what to do about some of the pages that have been over the limit for a while now, like me, te, do 人, 女, 水. — Eru·tuon 04:03, 5 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

Whoops! — SGconlaw (talk) 09:45, 5 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

Hi, @Benwing2. Actually, when |url= is used, instead of putting the comma after the superscript hyperlink, perhaps we should put it before like this: "Title,". I tried to do this in the past but it was too complicated to figure out so I gave up. — SGconlaw (talk) 04:26, 6 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

@Sgconlaw I put the comma after the hyperlink because all other hyperlinks worked that way. It's not obvious to me which one is better. If you think putting the comma before the link is better, I can look into implementing that, but before doing that we should make sure we really want to do that, and see what the prevailing style elsewhere is. Benwing2 (talk) 04:31, 6 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

Well, in most offline scenarios a footnote number (which I'd say is similar) is generally placed after the punctuation mark. See, for example, (Chicago style guide), (Oxford University Standard for the Citation of Legal Authorities), and w:MOS:REFPUNCT. — SGconlaw (talk) 04:35, 6 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

OK, I can probably implement this in the code, but I need to wait until I switch the code on; currently the code calls out to Template:quote-meta/source to compare the new and old generated text, so I can see if anything is different. It will take a few days before all pages get regenerated and inserted into the relevant tracking categories. Benwing2 (talk) 04:43, 6 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

— SGconlaw (talk) 06:32, 6 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

Hi, @Benwing2, I think a recent update to {{quote-meta/source}} (or some other template) has created an issue in the following quotation tempate:

• Wikitext: {{quote-web|author=Kathrine Jebsen Moore|editor={{w|Claire Lehmann}}|title=A Witch-hunt on Instagram|url=https://quillette.com/2019/02/17/a-witch-hunt-on-instagram/|archiveurl=https://web.archive.org/web/20190302161347/https://quillette.com/2019/02/17/a-witch-hunt-on-instagram/|archivedate=2 March 2019|work={{w|Quillette}}|location=Sydney, N.S.W.|date=17 February 2019|passage=“I want to say this gently,” a comment from a user identified only as Sarah began, “because I can tell your intent is to share your personal evolution and celebrate facing your fear of the unknown, and that’s great. I just need to point out that there’s a lot of ‘'''othering'''’ happening in this post.”|lang=en}}
• Result:
  • 2019 February 17, Kathrine Jebsen Moore, “A Witch-hunt on Instagram”, in Claire Lehmann, editor, Quillette‎, Sydney, N.S.W., archived from the original on 2 March 2019:

    “I want to say this gently,” a comment from a user identified only as Sarah began, “because I can tell your intent is to share your personal evolution and celebrate facing your fear of the unknown, and that’s great. I just need to point out that there’s a lot of ‘othering’ happening in this post.”

The archive URL is supposed to appear linked to the superscript number after the website name, and the original URL linked to the words "the original". However, at the moment only the archive URL is displayed in both cases. — SGconlaw (talk) 09:15, 7 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

@Sgconlaw Sorry, I did change that, I thought it was a bug. See the history to Template:quote-meta/source and feel free to revert that change. Benwing2 (talk) 15:34, 7 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

I fixed it. Benwing2 (talk) 16:15, 7 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

Thanks! — SGconlaw (talk) 18:42, 7 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

The template/module always inserts a colon, even when there's no cited content:

{{quote-web|en|title=Title with highlight|work=Work|year=2019}}

2019, “Title with highlight”, in Work:

– Jberkel 08:37, 2 October 2019 (UTC)Reply

Yes, because I think it's assumed that there should always be some cited content since this is a quotation template. Personally I'm not particularly enamoured of terms in titles being used as examples of entries, and thus made bold. I'd say that if this must be done, repeat the title as the cited content:

2019, “Bla Bla Significant Word Bla Bla”, in Work:

Bla Bla Significant Word Bla Bla

— SGconlaw (talk) 10:01, 2 October 2019 (UTC)Reply

OK, was just wondering because there's a comment in the template source, stating "if passage or translation or transliteration is present, call quote-meta/quote to display actual quote", which doesn't make this assumption. – Jberkel 10:38, 2 October 2019 (UTC)Reply

Hi, @Benwing2, I created the entries s.l. and s.n. in the Glossary. Would it be possible to update this template so that if "s.l." (or "S.l.", also "") is specified as a value for |publisher=, links to the glossary are automatically added? Or do you think it's better if the links are added manually when quotation templates are used? — SGconlaw (talk) 11:09, 27 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

Hi, @Benwing2. Just a thought: for {{quote-meta/paramdoc}}, another command that could be added is <<translation>>. See, for example, {{RQ:Nashe Pierce Penilesse/documentation}}. — SGconlaw (talk) 12:43, 23 December 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Sgconlaw Yup, I have plans to add a lot more features to this. Benwing2 (talk) 05:19, 24 December 2021 (UTC)Reply

— SGconlaw (talk) 05:30, 24 December 2021 (UTC)Reply

I don't know whether the problem exists for other wikiformatting, but wikiformatting for italics doesn't show up. This is unsatisfactory. It may be the result of CSS overpowering wikiformatting, which seems to be a common, though unsatisfactory feature in template design generally. As this has not always been the case, I assume that some change in the last few years has caused this. The phenomenon of wikiformatting being somehow overridden is much older and also leads to loss of information and somewhat amateurish appearance of some citations. DCDuring (talk) 23:03, 27 April 2022 (UTC)Reply

Could you please give an example where it doesn't work? It seems to work for me:

Template:quote-meta

70.172.194.25 23:13, 27 April 2022 (UTC)Reply

See my reply to similar comment at Template talk:quote-journal. DCDuring (talk) 23:21, 27 April 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Fenakhay: are these really necessary? I think that if there are more than five authors, only the first author should be specified, followed by "". — Sgconlaw (talk) 18:09, 20 December 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Sgconlaw: I've rolled back my changes. — Fenakhay ^{(حيطي · مساهماتي)} 12:31, 21 December 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Fenakhay: OK, thanks! — Sgconlaw (talk) 16:48, 21 December 2022 (UTC)Reply