This is a discussion that took place on Wiktionary's IRC channel on December 19, 2009 about what a word really is. I guess the outcome of it was that Wiktionary's current definition of word represents accurately what we thought was a word. And I'm going to start using 'quorblagging' too . . . . .
<Logomaniac> I'm going to put about six cleanup and attention tags on ]
<club_butler> http://en.wiktionary.orghttps://dictious.com/en/word
<Logomaniac> and ]
<club_butler> http://en.wiktionary.orghttps://dictious.com/en/phrase
<Logomaniac> and ]
<club_butler> http://en.wiktionary.orghttps://dictious.com/en/idiomatic
<cirwin> heh
<cirwin> word isn't bad
<cirwin> well, the first three defs anyway
<Logomaniac> we need better definitions
<cirwin> hehe
<Logomaniac> .? word
<club_butler> word — noun: 1. (linguistics) A distinct unit of language (sounds in speech or written letters) with a particular meaning, composed of one or more morphemes, and also of one or more phonemes that determine its sound pattern, 2. A distinct unit of language which is approved by some authority â
<cirwin> I think our definition or word is pretty good
<Logomaniac> OK then I want a less techy-sounding one
<Logomaniac> .? idiomatic
<Leftmost> I want a more techy-sounding one.
<club_butler> idiomatic — adjective: 1. Pertaining or conforming to the mode of expression characteristic of a language, 2. Resembling or characteristic of an idiom
<cirwin> wel, the composed of onwards is not definitino, it's clarification
<Logomaniac> I want one that I can understand
<Logomaniac> without several hours' worth of research
<Leftmost> Me too.:P
<Logomaniac> and I don't want to move to simple.wikt
<Logomaniac> even though razorflame keeps begging me to
<Leftmost> Morphemes and phonemes wouldn't take several hours. They're simple concepts.
<cirwin> word: The pieces which make up a language. In Latin based languages, such as English, French, and Spanish, it is a bunch of letters separated by spaces.
<Logomaniac> sdlksfdjk <-- but that is not a word
<Logomaniac> An elementary school student would know that
<Leftmost> cirwin, "peanut butter" is a compound. There's a space in there, though.
<cirwin> that's the simple.wikt defintiion
<Leftmost> Well, it's wrong.
<cirwin> I know
<Logomaniac> wow
<Leftmost> Also, "bunch"?
<cirwin> a bunch of letters separated by spaces
<cirwin> implies that there is at least one space in each word
<Leftmost> True. Didn't think of that.
<Leftmost> What does it say about me that as I pack to go visit family, I bring with me an SF novel, a book of absurdist plays, a grammar of Irish, an Irish dictionary, a book on data structures, and a number of papers about Irish syntax or computational implementation of syntactic theory?
<cirwin> GEEEEEK
<cirwin> in a freindly way
<cirwin> (i.e. two of the letters have been cunningly transposed)
<Leftmost> By "cunningly" I assume you mean "by the cunning craft of my fingers, without my prior knowledge".
<cirwin> something like that
<Logomaniac> word: A distinct unit of language, represented by sound in speech or symbols (as letters or pictograms) in writing which is used to represent a certain quantity or idea and consists of one or more morphemes as well as one or more phonemes
<Leftmost> Oh yeah, and a book on linear algebra and a book of short stories in Irish.
<Logomaniac> I dunno
<Logomaniac> our definition needs work
<Logomaniac> because if I use 'quorblagging' to mean ... I dunno, sleeping, it is '(linguistics) A distinct unit of language (sounds in speech or written letters) with a particular meaning, composed of one or more morphemes, and also of one or more phonemes that determine its sound pattern, ' but it is still not a word.
<Leftmost> Logomaniac, it's composed of one morpheme and one bit of nonsense.
<cirwin> a widely recognised unit of language?
<Mglovesfun> isn't it?
<Mglovesfun> it could be
<Leftmost> "quorblag" is not a morpheme.
<Logomaniac> .? morpheme
<club_butler> morpheme — noun: 1. (linguistics) The smallest linguistic unit within a word that can carry a meaning, such as "un-", "break", and "-able" in the word "unbreakable"
<Logomaniac> it has -ing
<cirwin> and blag
<Logomaniac> quorblag and -ing
<Leftmost> Yes, but it's not composed of morphemes. It contains one, but it isn't composed of them.
<Cassowaries> quorblag is a nonce morpheme
<Cassowaries> or quor is, and it has some relationship to blag
<Mglovesfun> yep
<Logomaniac> and why is quorblag not a morpheme?
<Logomaniac> or quor and blag
<Mglovesfun> indeed
<Leftmost> Cassowaries, perhaps an idiolectic morpheme, but that doesn't do anyone any good.
<Logomaniac> It is "The smallest linguistic unit within a word that can carry a meaning, "
<Leftmost> What meaning does it carry, outside of your mind?
<Cassowaries> I would interpret "quorblagging" (if it means "sleeping") as "stealing sleep"
<Logomaniac> note can carry instead of does carry :p
<Cassowaries> and therefore quor would mean sleep
<Cassowaries> so I impose meaning upon it
<Cassowaries> and therefore I impose morphemic status upon it
<Logomaniac> mhm
<Logomaniac> exactly
<Logomaniac> and therefore quorblagging is a ] according to our defiintion
<club_butler> http://en.wiktionary.orghttps://dictious.com/en/word
<Leftmost> Cassowaries, but how do you come to the conclusion that it means sleeping? In certain contexts, it might be possible, but in general not.
<Cassowaries> Leftmost, well, purely from being told
<Cassowaries> which is inelegant, but not invalid
<Logomaniac> how does one come to the conclusion that "sleeping" means sleeping?
<Cassowaries> and I would be perfectly happy calling "quorblagging" a word, even if I did not know what it meant
<Cassowaries> it's just a word I don't know
<Leftmost> True. So now it has word status and I see no problem with that.
<Leftmost> Logomaniac, language acquisition.
<Logomaniac> but it's still not really a word
<Leftmost> Sure it is.
<Leftmost> It's not a widely-accepted word, but it's a word.
<Cassowaries> yup
<Logomaniac> alright then
<Cassowaries> so there's a separate implication of "not a word" that we might want to deal with
<Logomaniac> right
<Cassowaries> people say, I don't know, "invalidness" is not a word
<Cassowaries> even though it has all the hallmarks of a word
<Logomaniac> because if I can make quorblagging a word, then what isn't a word?
<cirwin> "not a word" unless appears in 3 independant places spaced by a year?
<cirwin> would be useful if our defintion matched CFI :)
<Logomaniac> :)
<Cassowaries> Logomaniac, I mean there are therefore two meanings of 'word'
<Logomaniac> the technical one
<cirwin> I'd say quorblagging is a word, it's a nonce word
<Logomaniac> and ... the one that says
<cirwin> but not a word according to def 2
<Cassowaries> with this meaning being something like "word (sense 1) that appears in common usage or a dictionary"
<Logomaniac> "any string of letters that lots of people use to mean something"
<cirwin> it's definitly not just letters
<Cassowaries> yeah, this is actually before we get into the multiple definitions of "word" used just within linguistics
<Logomaniac> alright, that was just off the top of my head
<Mglovesfun> gotta go soon
<Mglovesfun> pity,
<Cassowaries> syntactic words, prosodic words, orthographical words
<Cassowaries> etc etc
<Logomaniac> I think I'll save this discussion
<Mglovesfun> yes
<Mglovesfun> good discussion
<Leftmost> Cassowaries, the term "prosodic word" was used repeatedly in my phonology class in the context of OT, but our professor couldn't explain it. Any help?
<Mglovesfun> so "red herring" is a word
<Cassowaries> Mglovesfun, most definitely, but it's also two words
<Cassowaries> depending on what definition you're using
<Mglovesfun> probably for a linguist yes, but for the common man, no
<Mglovesfun> exactly
<Cassowaries> well, linguists just ignore spaces
<Mglovesfun> most people would tell me it's two words
<Cassowaries> "herringbone" is one word and two words as well
<Mglovesfun> lol
<Cassowaries> Leftmost, hmm
<Mglovesfun> my name is John
<Mglovesfun> would anyone ignore those spaces?
<Cassowaries> Mglovesfun, we ignore the spaces and then reconstruct what the words should be
<Cassowaries> so we'd end up with the same number of words as 'the common man'
<Mglovesfun> good one
<Cassowaries> but in "this is a red herring", we wouldn't
<Cassowaries> well, maybe
<Mglovesfun> see ]
<club_butler> http://en.wiktionary.orghttps://dictious.com/en/set_phrase
<Cassowaries> anyway
<Mglovesfun> (needs t-gloss)
<Cassowaries> Leftmost, it's actually hard to adequately define
<Cassowaries> I find it intuitive, though
<Logomaniac> I (and most averaeg people you ask) would probably say "this is a red herring" is not a word, it's five words
<Logomaniac> but it's a phrase
<cirwin> "this is a red-herring" ?
<Logomaniac> ok, then, four
<Cassowaries> I would just say it's "four or five words"
<Cassowaries> so not very different
<Logomaniac> but red herring is two words which have one meaning
<Logomaniac> red-herring <- one word
<Leftmost> All I have to go on, though, is "prosody" and "word". The combination of the two doesn't lead me to an immediate understanding.
<Logomaniac> it is idiomatic then (:
<Cassowaries> anyway, hierarchy of prosodic constituents:
<Cassowaries> mora - syllable - foot - prosodic word - phonological phrase - intonational phrase - phonological utterance
<Leftmost> Ahh, so a unit composed of prosodic feet?
<Cassowaries> yes, helpful huh
<Leftmost> Well, works for me.:)
<Cassowaries> but it essentially means that "I'm" or "to go" are prosodic words
<Logomaniac> hmm
<Cassowaries> they happen to also be feet, and the former is also a syllable
<Cassowaries> but you know
<Leftmost> Yeah.
<Cassowaries> the latter is a syntactic word, right?
<Cassowaries> and the former is definitely not
<Logomaniac> .? syntactic
<club_butler> syntactic — adjective: 1. Of, related to or connected with syntax
<Logomaniac> >_>
<Logomaniac> .? syntax
<club_butler> syntax — noun: 1. A set of rules that govern how words are combined to form phrases and sentences, 2. (computing, countable) The formal rules of formulating the statements of a computer language
<Logomaniac> right
<Logomaniac> can I get a copy of those rules?
<Cassowaries> haha
<Cassowaries> do a masters in syntax
<Cassowaries> and you'll get a fifth of them
<Logomaniac> o_O
<Logomaniac> um
<Logomaniac> aren't they downloadable on the internet somewhere
<Logomaniac> or on wikipedia
<Cassowaries> by no means
<Logomaniac> </tongue-in-cheek>
<Cassowaries> they're in your head already though
<Leftmost> I took a class on syntax this semester. We got a really, really brief introduction to the theory up to 1985.
<Cassowaries> so you've already got more of a copy than linguistics has in total discovered
<Logomaniac> right...
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<Logomaniac> ok
<Logomaniac> hello opio
<Logomaniac> opio: Without looking at a dictionary, what do you think of as a word?
<Cassowaries> incidentally
<Cassowaries> I just realised I don't know whether English diphthongs are monomoraic or bimoraic
<opio> as a word?
<Cassowaries> my instinct is that they're bimoraic, but I don't honestly know
<opio> uh
<opio> well. anything that conveys meaning, i suppose
<opio> are we differentiating between word and term?
<Cassowaries> so you'd call "un-" a word?
<Leftmost> Cassowaries, hmm. I'd guess bimoraic too, but not sure.
<Logomaniac> is 'quorblagging', which I made up to mean 'sleeping' about 15 minutes ago, a word
<opio> i'd call un- a prefix
<Cassowaries> but it conveys meaning, surely
<Leftmost> Is there any way they could be like, 1.5 morae?
<Cassowaries> dunno
<Cassowaries> probably not
<opio> yes, i suppose. i guess that brings up the question 'is a prefix a word'
<Cassowaries> I would say no
<Cassowaries> "anything that conveys meaning", or rather the smallest thing that can convey meaning, is a morpheme
<opio> i don't really care either way... this is one of those debates that never will get anywhere
<Mglovesfun> ]
<Cassowaries> which can be but is not a word
<club_butler> http://en.wiktionary.orghttps://dictious.com/en/literally
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<Cassowaries> anyway, Leftmost, I know languages vary on their treatment
<opio> perhaps, then, any non-affix that conveys meaning
<Cassowaries> and some, like Old English, have both monomoraic and bimoraic diphthongs
<opio> or
<opio> the things between spaces in a sentence
<opio> there, that's a word.
<Cassowaries> haha
<Logomaniac> but is 'quorblagging' a word?
<opio> it doesn't convey meaning to me
<Cassowaries> it means 'sleeping'
<opio> but then, neither do lots of words
<opio> because i don't know them
<Cassowaries> now is it a word?
<Logomaniac> If I tell you it means 'sleeping'
<opio> yeah, i caught that earlier
<Logomaniac> is it a word
<opio> yes
<opio> not necessarily a valid one lol
<Cassowaries> yeah
<Cassowaries> so Logomaniac, this is the discussion we've all just had
<Logomaniac> right
<Cassowaries> so at least know opio is like us
<Cassowaries> we know*
<Logomaniac> I'm getting another opinion tho
<opio> I dunno, it might be dangerous to have me in your group
<Logomaniac> How about "red herring", opio? Is that a word?
* opio tends to attract controversy
<opio> I would call red herring a term, at first glance
<opio> because it's two words with no hyphen
<opio> but I don't know what a term or word is "officially"
<Logomaniac> so you'd say "red herring" is a term, not a word
<Logomaniac> because it's two words
<Logomaniac> right?
<opio> it depends
<opio> does wiktionary include terms?
<opio> if not, then i would modify my opinions for the purposes of this conversation :D
<opio> but yes
<Logomaniac> we aren't talking about wikt >_>
<Logomaniac> alright
<Leftmost> Alright, I must away. Ta.
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<Logomaniac> soo... the question raised earlier but not answered
<Logomaniac> What then is not a word?
<opio> what isn't a word?
<opio> a sentence
<opio> >_>
<Logomaniac> >_>
<opio> define term
<know-it-all> 'term' is English: A limitation, restriction or regulation. terms and conditions A word or phrase, especially one from a specialised area of knowledge. Relations among people.
<opio> lol
<opio> not quite what i was looking for
<Logomaniac> I suppose we'd all agree that 'ieoidsldas' is not a word
<Logomaniac> because it carries no meaning
<opio> none that i know
<opio> are names words?
<Logomaniac> and I just randomly typed it.
<opio> not all names carry meaning
<opio> especially negro names ^_^
<Cassowaries> names carry meaning in the same way "I" carries meaning
<Cassowaries> it points out a person
<Logomaniac> But the name "opio" carries the meaning that it's you
<opio> yes
<opio> "A word or phrase, especially one from a specialised area of knowledge."
<opio> term^
<opio> so term is even more broad than word
<opio> so i guess i would call red herring a phrase
<Logomaniac> term needs a better definition
<opio> i guess i would have to *
<Logomaniac> I'd call red herring both a term and phrase
<opio> well, if a term can be a word or a phrase, then yes
<opio> in the same way that a square is a rectangle
<Logomaniac> but ieoidsldas becomes a word as soon as I give it a meaning?
<Cassowaries> <opio> I dunno, it might be dangerous to have me in your group
<Logomaniac> If I give it the meaning "blanket" then is ieoidsldas a word?
<opio> yes, but what would the point be? lol
<Cassowaries> you're in the group of "people who aren't really sure but have various conflicting intuitions I guess"
<Cassowaries> which includes most linguists
<Cassowaries> so I'm happy
<Logomaniac> Trying to figure out what isn't a word
<opio> well, on wiktionary there are a number of people with whom i make absolutely no attempt to be civil
<opio> Too much effort vs not enough payoff
<opio> why logo?
<Cassowaries> Logomaniac, yes, it would be a word then
<Logomaniac> So that we can have better definitions at ], ] and ]
<club_butler> http://en.wiktionary.orghttps://dictious.com/en/word | http://en.wiktionary.orghttps://dictious.com/en/term | http://en.wiktionary.orghttps://dictious.com/en/phrase
<Cassowaries> an unusual one, but a word
<Logomaniac> alright
<Logomaniac> so a word is only a string of letters (or symbols or sounds) that carries a meaning
<opio> why symbols?
<Logomaniac> chinese
<opio> that would make mathematical equations words
<Cassowaries> but it would also be a word if you didn't give it a meaning but just said "I've never liked ieoidsldas" (and there was no transmission error)
<opio> i wouldn't use the words symbols, it's too vague
<Logomaniac> alright
<Cassowaries> which I suppose carries an implicit meaning
<opio> but i can't think of anything else offhand that would describe what chinese characters are
<Cassowaries> so we're all leaning towards the semantic interpretation of what a word is
<Cassowaries> which is pretty much our definition
<Logomaniac> pretty much
<opio> is logograph a word?
<Logomaniac> but does 'ieoidsldas' contain morphemes?
<opio> define logograph
<know-it-all> 'logograph' is English: a character or symbol that represents a word or phrase; a logogram.
<Logomaniac> or phonemes?
<Cassowaries> Logomaniac, one
<opio> there, that's what a chinese symbol can be
<Cassowaries> we don't know what phonemes it consists of
<Logomaniac> ideogram
<Cassowaries> its graphemes are very unusual for English
<Logomaniac> hmm
<Cassowaries> or rather, its combination of graphemes
<Cassowaries> but we assume it contains phonemes which correspond, however loosely, to the graphemes
<opio> morphemes are the smallest units of language that carry meaning, right?
<Cassowaries> yes
<opio> like affixes and such
<Cassowaries> but also like "apple"
<opio> ah yes
<opio> i guess that would make everything in chinese a morpheme
<opio> i mean every individual character^
<Cassowaries> it means they represent morphemes, sure
<Cassowaries> I say that in that pedantic way
<Logomaniac> hm
<Cassowaries> because you both keep talking about "symbols"
<Cassowaries> which is true
<Cassowaries> but morphemes are symbols
<Cassowaries> (phonemes are not)
<Logomaniac> sooo ... our definition of ] needs no changing
<club_butler> http://en.wiktionary.orghttps://dictious.com/en/word
<Logomaniac> ??
<Cassowaries> I don't think so
<Cassowaries> in that it's accurate
<Logomaniac> define phrase
<know-it-all> 'phrase' is English: A short written or spoken expression. (grammar) A word or group of words that functions as a single unit in the syntax of a sentence, usually consisting of a head, or central word, and elaborating words. (music) A small section of music in a larger piece..
<Logomaniac> How about that
<opio> I wouldn't worry about improving our english definitions
<opio> if things keep going the way they have been, wiktionary is always going to suck
<opio> from some aspect or another
<Cassowaries> well, that has the same drawback that our definition of 'word' has
<Logomaniac> well, if we improve the definitions of word, phrase, idiom, term etc
<Cassowaries> it focuses on one aspect of language (in this case syntax, in word's case morphology)
<Cassowaries> to the exclusion of other aspects
<Logomaniac> then we can improve CFI
<Logomaniac> and then improve wikt
<Cassowaries> so actually
<Cassowaries> if we say "prosodic word" and try to interpret it using our definitions
<Cassowaries> we're going to get the wrong answer
<Cassowaries> because a prosodic word is not about morphemes, in that it's blind to whether they exist or not
<Cassowaries> anyway
<Cassowaries> I'm not confident this is going to get anywhere
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<Cassowaries> and I need to run off now
<Cassowaries> so trah
<Logomaniac> cya
</nowiki>