User talk:Justinrleung/Archive 23

Is Luchuan-LC or Luchuan-DQ the Luchuan in 客贛方言調查報告? Up till now I've just used the plain old Luchuan (which is to be deprecated in the future). RcAlex36 (talk) 18:17, 24 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

@RcAlex36: It's Luchuan-LC. It doesn't really specify where in Luchuan, so I'm just assuming it's the county seat, which used to be called Lucheng (LC); now it's called Wenquan. Luchuan-DQ is from 广西通志汉语方言志. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:54, 25 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

@RcAlex36: BTW, Wuping Hakka can be divided into several dialects. The one recorded in 客贛方言調查報告 is 岩前, but the one we have is the county seat (平川). I'll probably have to add the other dialects of Wuping in later. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:17, 25 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Justinrleung: Thank you for your reply. Some day the mess I made with Wuping needs to be cleaned up though. RcAlex36 (talk) 03:24, 25 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

@RcAlex36: No worries. I've made the same mistake before I realized. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:34, 25 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Justinrleung: I have an idea. Is it possible to start a dialectal synonyms table on rock paper scissors? (See here) RcAlex36 (talk) 04:43, 25 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

@RcAlex36: Yup, I've added one. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 08:26, 25 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Are we just assuming the Teochew in 廣州話、客家話、潮汕話與普通話對照詞典 is Teochew in Shantou? RcAlex36 (talk) 17:34, 26 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

@RcAlex36: Yup, let's do that. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 19:55, 26 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Justinrleung: I was asking because it doesn't actually say the Teochew in the book is based on the Shantou dialect. Does the book implicitly choose Shantou vocabulary for Teochew though? RcAlex36 (talk) 02:54, 27 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

@RcAlex36: The pronunciation given is definitely Shantou (and not Chaozhou or Jieyang, for example). If you look at the pronunciation scheme on p. 544, it says that it's based on the dialect of Shantou city. Since the pronunciation is based on Shantou, I think we can treat it as Shantou. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:27, 27 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Justinrleung: By the way, this dictionary is said to be not that reliable for Teochew. Sometimes the vocabulary for Teochew indeed sound strange. RcAlex36 (talk) 05:06, 19 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

@RcAlex36: It do notice it that it's kind of strange sometimes, but it's hard to tell good from bad without a native speaker around. What is this claim of unreliability based on? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:25, 19 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Justinrleung: Online comments. See and . RcAlex36 (talk) 05:29, 19 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Justinrleung: One of the problems is 汕頭方言詞彙（一）is mysteriously missing, which becomes so annoying sometimes. Also, because I feel like we didn't have enough resources for Chaozhou and Shantou back then, I added in Chenghai so that we could use 澄海方言研究. I doubt the vocabulary in Shantou and Chenghai are any different though (for the most part). RcAlex36 (talk) 05:35, 19 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

@RcAlex36: Yup, it's really weird that 汕頭方言詞彙（一） is missing. I've even tried requesting it through my university's library, but they couldn't find it. It's good that we have Chenghai, but that doesn't really fill the hole of Shantou, which is a more prestigious dialect. Bokeylee's videos are also quite good for Shantou, so it's always something we could use. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:45, 19 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

I don't exactly know how to phrase the definition of the verb sense. Can you please add the definition? Thanks a lot! RcAlex36 (talk) 16:38, 27 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

@RcAlex36: Hmm, the current adverb sense isn't really adverbial without 到 - it should be a verb. The current verb sense is hard to define... let me think about it. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:52, 27 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Is Cantonese 撞啱 a verb or adverb? It isn't exactly equivalent to 咁啱 (e.g. 我搭的士去趕去機場，撞啱前面塞車。). RcAlex36 (talk) 05:05, 31 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

@RcAlex36: I'm not quite sure. 粵典 (not published) currently treats it as an adverb, but I think it kind of makes a little more sense to treat it as a verb. This discussion may also be interesting. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:57, 31 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

I created this, but Min Nan definitely needs more work. For example, I don't know if 石頭 is used in both Xiamen, Zhangzhou and Quanzhou, and I can't find a good source that suggests Shantou uses 石部 (perhaps because 汕頭方言詞彙（一）is missing from the official records). If you have any good resources, please fill in the items. RcAlex36 (talk) 15:58, 31 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

@RcAlex36: I'd say 石頭 is used in Xiamen, Quanzhou and Zhangzhou based on Minnan Fangyan Da Cidian, p. 986. I usually accept words from that list if the word is found in another source on any of the subdialects of Hokkien (usually Xiamen).

I'm not sure about Shantou. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:09, 1 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

Hi, I was wondering if you could add 澄海 (Teochew) and 茂名新坡 (Cantonese) to Module:zh/data/dial (or am I allowed to do this myself?), since we have 澄海方言研究 and 茂名市志, both of which contain a decent amount of vocabulary. RcAlex36 (talk) 06:28, 2 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

@RcAlex36: Sure! You could add them if you want. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:29, 2 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

@RcAlex36: BTW, don't forget to update MOD:zh/data/dial-syn when you make changes to MOD:zh/data/dial. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:44, 2 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

Ah, you've already done that... — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:45, 2 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Justinrleung: I'm planning to add some Guangxi Cantonese dialects (need to give them some recognition) but I'm still trying to figure out which ones are Cantonese and which ones are Pinghua... RcAlex36 (talk) 16:47, 2 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Justinrleung, Mar vin kaiser, The dog2 Do you happen to have resources on Teochew spoken in Thailand? RcAlex36 (talk) 11:13, 2 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

I have a pdf of 泰国的三个汉语方言 though the formatting is kind of messed up. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:20, 2 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Justinrleung: May I know where you acquired the pdf? How messed up is the formatting? RcAlex36 (talk) 16:31, 2 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

@RcAlex36: The main issue is that the IPA symbols and certain Chinese characters don't show up right. I don't remember where I got it. I just stumbled upon it while searching something up. I can't seem to find the link to it anymore. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:32, 2 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Justinrleung: I bet it was badly OCRed. That's alright. Thanks for your time. RcAlex36 (talk) 16:40, 2 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

@RcAlex36: I don't think it's OCRed, but it's possibly a draft version. The issue seems to be encoding problems rather than misidentifying characters. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:42, 2 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Justinrleung: Well that's interesting, a draft version floating around on the Internet. The bad news is the book is not requestable on 全國圖書館參考諮詢聯盟 for some reason. RcAlex36 (talk) 16:44, 2 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

@RcAlex36: Yeah, I've tried as well. I could shoot you an email if you want. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:47, 2 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Justinrleung: Yep please. I've had my email function enabled. RcAlex36 (talk) 16:49, 2 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

Hi Justin, long time no see! I just have a quick question about "光動貌" as the definition of 焂. The closest I can come up with is "moving light". Is this sufficient or am I missing some nuance of the definition? Cheers! Bumm13 (talk) 23:01, 4 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

Hi @Bumm13, it's been a long while! Glad to see you back! 焂 is quite obscure, so it's uncertain what it actually means. Based on the definition, I'd say it means "(of light) moving". 貌 is often used to describe how something looks, so definitions with 貌 usually mean it's likely adjectival. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:07, 5 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

I was just wondering which of the three Min Nan readings (ian, iàn, iân) apply to the two given "Pronunciation" sections? There's no (easy) way I can disambiguate them as a non-Chinese speaker as they have the same Mandarin reading. Cheers! Bumm13 (talk) 01:22, 5 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Bumm13: I'm thinking these pronunciations came from 廈門音新字典. I've checked a few sources, and it seems like ian is used for both sections. Iàn is a variant pronunciation (for both); 廈門音新字典 says si̍t-chāi sī Ian, ū lâng chhò tha̍k chòe Iàn; ì-sù kap Ian sio-siāng (It is actually Ian. Some people wrongly pronounce it as Iàn; the meaning is the same as Ian); Embree's dictionary defines iàn as How? Where? Why? and (indicate some doubt or uncertainty about the statement just made). I'm not too sure about iân, but it seems to be a variant for "how?"; 廈門音新字典 says ū-lâng kóng jī-kù thâu tio̍h tha̍k Iân; thái-thó (some people say it should be pronounced Iân when it's at the beginning of the sentence; how). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:24, 5 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

Please arbitrate. My edit was reverted here (diff). And do people actually still use the yánzhèng pronunciation in Taiwan? RcAlex36 (talk) 10:36, 5 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

I don't think a lot of people use yánzhèng. They're likely basing it on 重編國語辭典修訂本. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:52, 5 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

Are "rapid; swift" acceptable definitions for 焏 given the Chinese definitions 急；疾；趣? Can "urgent" and "emergency" (adj.) also be used as well? Cheers and thanks for all the help! Bumm13 (talk) 21:25, 5 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Bumm13: I think it should be a variant of 亟 according to 教育部異體字字典. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 21:42, 6 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

焺 gives the definition "鼓鑄" as some sort of combination of "to blast hot air for smelting" and "to cast; to melt". Any idea how those would combine in a phrase? Cheers! Bumm13 (talk) 21:33, 6 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Bumm13: You don't really need to worry about giving a definition for it since it's only used in the phrase 焺點. We could simply use {{zh-only|焺點}}. Please try to follow what Metaknowledge has pointed out on your talk page. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 21:48, 6 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

Oh, crud, I had a brain lapse and forgot about it being part of a compound word. Thanks for fixing that for me! Bumm13 (talk) 22:11, 6 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Bumm13: No worries! — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:12, 6 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

I think we can use these as sources for Malaysian Hainanese: and . They are produced by the Malaysian Hainanese clan association. The dog2 (talk) 06:27, 7 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

@The dog2: The Federation of Hainan Associations is based in KL, I think. Are you sure about picking the other location you had? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:31, 7 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

I don't think we know for sure which city the source is based on, only that it's from Malaysia. I picked Kuala Terengganu because to my knowledge, it is the only Malaysian city with a Hainanese majority among the Chinese community. The dog2 (talk) 06:37, 7 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

It's kind of complicated then. I'm not comfortable with labelling it as Kuala Terengganu unless we know the source is based on it. We could just call it Malaysia, but that's probably not good. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:44, 7 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

Hi Justin! I edited 㝤 and got the following error:

"Lua error: attempt to concatenate field '?' (a nil value)" Bumm13 (talk) 01:45, 8 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Bumm13: I think you put the wrong things in each parameter. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:08, 8 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

Ack! -_- -- fixed Bumm13 (talk) 02:12, 8 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

Believe it or not, this is an English question (of sorts)! What part of speech would go with "cannot walk normally"? Cheers! Bumm13 (talk) 02:59, 8 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Bumm13: It's probably a verb, but I'm not sure. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:50, 8 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

I have added the following Cantonese 方言點: 桂平、蒙山（西河）、北流（唐僚）、百色、博白、靈山、浦北、欽州、北海、寧明、橫縣, which are all recorded in 廣西漢語方言研究. The dialects spoken in these locations are widely agreed to be Cantonese (粵語) instead of Pinghua.

I did not add 貴港（南江）because I was not sure where 南江 is, and it's surely not the 南江 in the urban area. Also, the 陰入 in the phonology recorded is not split into 上陰入 and 下陰入 which looks suspicious to me (see p. 201). I also did not add 信都鋪門 because I'm not sure whether it's actually Cantonese. RcAlex36 (talk) 12:04, 8 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

I personally do not know much about Pinghua, and don't have a stance in the "whether Pinghua is a separate branch of Chinese" debate. RcAlex36 (talk) 12:18, 8 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

Nice, thanks for adding these! I think for Pinghua, it's tricky. Each source seems to group things differently. I think we should kind of stick to the classification of the 2nd edition of 中国语言地图集. This way, Nanning Pinghua doesn't get lumped into Cantonese. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:07, 8 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

@RcAlex36: As for 南江, what makes you think that it's not 南江 in the urban area? Also what makes you doubt 信都鋪門 as a variety of Cantonese? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:28, 8 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Justinrleung: I've checked with some sources (e.g. 粤语西翼考察 广西贵港粤语之个案研究), and the phonology of 貴港港南區 looks different from that given in 廣西漢語方言研究, aside from the 陰入 issue. I haven't acquired the entire 粤语西翼考察 广西贵港粤语之个案研究, but we may be able to use that book for Guigang anyway. As for 信都鋪門 (信都 and 鋪門 are actually two different towns btw), another book (粤语平话土话方音字汇 第二编) decides to call it a 土話. It looks like the linguistics situation in Guangxi is quite messy to be honest, not to mention the presence of non-Sinitic languages like Zhuang. RcAlex36 (talk) 16:45, 8 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

@RcAlex36: The 貴港港南區 variety surveyed in 粤语西翼考察 广西贵港粤语之个案研究 is specifically described as the 方言島 of 東津鎮洋七橋行政村平垌自然村, so it's not necessarily the same as 南江村. As for 鋪門, 信都 was a county administering 鋪門 for a long time; I guess the author is using the old system? In a book summary of 铺门话研究 on Amazon (which I can't find a copy of yet), it says this about the dialect of 鋪門: "在近代、现代历史上称为信都话，只是在信都县解体、在铺门镇与信都镇并列之后，才随行政区划下降一级称铺门话。" 中国语言地图集 lists 信都 as Goulou, but it doesn't say if it's 信都鎮 or the traditional 信都縣. 土話 is a really fuzzy term that isn't well-defined. I think we could follow 廣西漢語方言研究 and call it 粵語 for now. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 17:17, 8 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Justinrleung: I've found a paper which describes a similar phonology: 贵港话同音字汇, which records 街里话. It says 所谓“街里话”指旧城区域以内即东至震塘（下街)、西至小江、南至南江、北至登龙桥这个范围内的居民所说的话, so I guess we can include 貴港（南江）. RcAlex36 (talk) 17:27, 8 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

@RcAlex36: Cool. Back to 信都鋪門, I'm looking at 粤语平话土话方音字汇 and I don't see where it talks about (1) 鋪門 and (2) 鋪門 being 土話. It just has 信都話. Am I missing something? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 17:29, 8 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Justinrleung: I regarded it as the same as 鋪門話. My bad. RcAlex36 (talk) 17:42, 8 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Justinrleung: 贺州铺门话语音研究 (2019), a master thesis, agrees that 鋪門話 is Gou-lou Cantonese. RcAlex36 (talk) 18:03, 8 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

In Teochew, does 寒 only mean "to feel cold", instead of "cold"? I see that it's included in Module:zh/data/dial-syn/冷, but 潮普雙言語詞典 says 寒 is only a verb meaning "to feel cold". RcAlex36 (talk) 04:05, 9 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

汕頭方言詞彙 and 澄海方言研究 give only 凊 and 凝 for cold. RcAlex36 (talk) 04:17, 9 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

@RcAlex36: According to 漢語方言詞彙, it says it means "cold" in the sense of weather. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:38, 9 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

I will add the 10 方言點 in 粵西客家方言調查報告 some day. RcAlex36 (talk) 18:28, 10 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

@RcAlex36: Great, thanks! — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:47, 11 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

 Done, plus two Guangxi 方言點 from 廣西漢語方言研究. RcAlex36 (talk) 04:37, 13 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

How should we handle the Taishanese word (tun21) for this? We cannot put 轉 because the initials don't match. Technically speaking, all the Cantonese forms appear to derive from the 去聲 variant of 旋 (which has a 邪母), so the etymological character is 旋. But should we put 旋 for Taishanese? RcAlex36 (talk) 08:51, 11 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

@RcAlex36: Taishanese Language Home 台山话资源网: "旋 ♫ cantonese: 转 mandarin:头发旋儿 english: Hair whorl on the head". So yup, I think so. The 21 tone could either be a morphological tone change (usually recorded as 11, I think) or a mistake. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 11:48, 11 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Justinrleung: Do we put just the Taishanese form as 旋 then? What about the other 方言點? RcAlex36 (talk) 12:04, 11 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

@RcAlex36: There are some complications. Some of the tones don't seem to be 陽去, but 陰去. There are also some that look like there's been morphological tone change to 35 or something like it. Of course, there are also dialects where there's only 去聲, where it's unclear whether it's 旋 or 轉. We'd have to look at it case by case. Same goes for the Hakka dialects in 珠江三角洲方言詞彙對照 - 串 (aspirated) seems to be related to 旋, but the unaspirated 轉 in Zhongshan Hakka is probably 轉, not 旋. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 12:25, 11 August 2020 (UTC)Reply