User talk:Octahedron80
Archives
Mon Nga and troubles arising
In your description of MON NGA, you said that certain Mons prefer to use the MON NGA. Didn't you mean that they preferred to use the Burmese NGA?
Do you expect Mon Pali to be encoded with Burmese NGA or with MON NGA? Our resident Mon seems to have been using MON NGA for kinzi in Pali, which I suppose we should expect from him. At present I'm addressing the issue by manually including the form with MON NGA where appropriate. RichardW57 (talk) 22:16, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
It is a little misunderstanding. As I learned from many references, င and ၚ are both used at the same time in Mon language. င is actually most used on -င် because it does not need to have a "tail" to disambiguate. So, -ၚ် is not quite incorrect but it is not prefered. (I ever asked Mon Wikipedia to use ၚ instead of င, but they only wish to replace -ၚ် with -င်.) ၚ is used as initial or medial (subjoined) that never spells with င. However, SEALang uses ၚ every position because they might not know this detail. What we need to do is to make -င် main entries instead of -ၚ်. --Octahedron80 (talk) 00:26, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- I'm going to have to rephrase that paragraph, because I can't see which nga you're talking about. After examining the backing store, I read that paragraph as:
- "It is a little misunderstanding. As I learned from many references, င and ၚ are both used at the same time in Mon language. င is actually most used on -င် <NGA, ASAT> because it does not need to have a "tail" to disambiguate. So, -ၚ် <MON NGA, ASAT> is not quite incorrect but it is not prefered. (I ever asked Mon Wikipedia to use ၚ instead of င, but they only wish to replace -ၚ် <MON NGA, ASAT> with -င် <NGA, ASAT>.) ၚ is used as initial or medial (subjoined) that never spells with င. However, SEALang uses ၚ every position because they might not know this detail. What we need to do is to make -င် <NGA, ASAT> main entries instead of -ၚ် <MON NGA, ASAT>." --RichardW57 (talk) 11:01, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- I'm going to have to rephrase that paragraph, because I can't see which nga you're talking about. After examining the backing store, I read that paragraph as:
- You should have a right font to see these shapes differently. Windows 10 that has default Myanmar Text so -ၚ် <MON NGA, ASAT> is well seen. For other system, it may need to use Noto Sans Myanmar. If you use Padauk, it hides the tail. --Octahedron80 (talk) 13:31, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- I remember discussions of how to encode the Mon nga. One suggestion, which I favoured, was to encode the tail, so stand-alone Mon nga would have been encoded as something <NGA, *TAIL OF NGA>. It seems that that would have been the right decision. None of the other solutions envisaged using a mixture of the already encoded character NGA and the new character in Mon. As to <MON NGA, ASAT>, do you have pre-Unicode examples of nga with asat and tails? The examples of Mon from Thailand in show the lack of a tail below asat. Incidentally, there's a bit of Thai Mon Pali on p9. <SA, VIRAMA, SA> for <GREAT SA> looks like needing a new flag for inflection - both non feminine genitive/dative singulars and second person singular imperative middles. (The future tense is always treated as unpredictable.) It looks to me that the tail below in <MON NGA, ASAT> is at most optional; I'm not sure it isn't just wrong. Maybe I'll knock up a version of Padauk (would Paduak be a legal name ?:-) with glyphs derived from MON NGA in red. --RichardW57 (talk) 17:52, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- To document every word, it seems to me that I need inflection tables for both words in <NGA, ASAT> and words in <MON NGA, ASAT> when there is a possible Mon Pali context for the word. Or can we induce the search engine to treat NGA as a match for MON NGA. It doesn't at present. At least, I can't get Wiktionary searches for သၚ်္ဃ with MON NGA to find the alternatve form သင်္ဃ with U+1004 NGA. --RichardW57 (talk) 17:52, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Anyways, Mon Pali uses င as 咽頭べさ (Intubesa) states it. I never see real Mon Pali text but it should be similar to Burmese Pali, just different at ၛ and some vowels.
- 'States' as opposed to 'does'! He has Pali words with kinzi in his 'picture dictionary', and they all use U+105A MON NGA: အၚ်္ဂုလဳ, အၚ်္ဂဇာတံ, ဇၚ်္ဃာ, အၚ်္ဂဇာတံ, သိၚ်္ဃာဏိကာ, သိၚ်္ဂိဝေရံ and ဟိၚ်္ဂု. So, @咽頭べさ, are they all encoded incorrectly? Or is the Mon Pali consonant chart wrong? --RichardW57 (talk) 11:01, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Both common nga and Mon nga can make kinzi form. Ask him if he knows about this technical problem. Or you may ask some Unicode members which proper way to do. --Octahedron80 (talk) 13:39, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- I found this document about Mon nga that may help. (I may be wrong or not? It does not mention about asat though.) --Octahedron80 (talk) 14:12, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Martin wrote there, "Thus a Mon kinzi is encoded using U+105A U+103A U+1039". Perhaps because he's in the pay of missionaries, he tends to concentrate on the vernacular and seems to forget Pali. It's a shame we have no answer on the matter from @咽頭べさ. --RichardW57 (talk) 17:52, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- I found this document about Mon nga that may help. (I may be wrong or not? It does not mention about asat though.) --Octahedron80 (talk) 14:12, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Another issue, do not call င as "Burmese" nga because it is rude for them. (Mon lost their kingdom because of Burmese.) I call it common nga instead. --Octahedron80 (talk) 00:26, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Hello@RichardW57,Have you read about the true Mon history of the Mon people? (talk) 13:26, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- I think so, though a lot of confirmatory details seem to be lost. --RichardW57 (talk) 17:52, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
 |
Mon Country | Mon State |
|---|---|---|
| Mon national flag or Mon people flag | Area covering Old Mon Country known in history as Hongsgwaddy or Rehmanaya, conquered by the Burmese in 1757. | Mon State created by Ne Win Government in 1974, comprising Moulmein and Thatan districts. |
We Mon people are not Burma Country but Mon Country. The Burmans do not have their own alphabet to this day, the alphabet used by the Burmans is the alphabet that the Burmans attacked and looted from the Mon people. We the Mon people call the Burmans human animals, because this is because the Burmans call the Mon people, တလိုင်းTa Laing and destroy Mon literature and Mon history. The name Ta Laing is not a Mon name but a conspiracy by the Burmese king Aung Zeya. The name Ta Laing has nothing to do with the Mon people and is a hate word coined by Burmese kings. The Mon people are called Thai Raman by most Thais. Those who have never been to Burma also know the Mon people as Raman or Mon Khmer. Ta Laing is the name of a Shan tribe and has nothing to do with the Mon people, most Burmans fabricate hate speech to persecute ethnic minorities if you want to read authentic Mon history, please read this link, I will continue to write about this history as much as, I can every day thanks.--Music writer Dr.Intobesa of Japanese idol NMB48 and BNK48. (talk) 13:26, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
@RichardW57 By the way, I compared with some languages. For example, Persian always uses KEHEH (ک) and FARSI YEH (ی) for every appearance of them, insteadof COMMON KAF (ك) and COMMON YEH (ي). Malay (and its siblings) always uses KEHEH (ک) and KEHEH WITH DOT ABOVE (ݢ). Those characters will specially change their forms for their languages. Thus, MON NGA (ၚ) should be always used to write Mon in every position by intention, neither it has tail or not (it's font's issue), instead of COMMON NGA (င). --Octahedron80 (talk) 03:52, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
@Octahedron80,กูอยากจะขอเบอร์โทรมึงสักหน่อยอยากจะคุยกับมึงดีๆถ้ามึงพูดภาษามอญไม่ได้กูด่ามึงหน้าเลยยังไงมึงก็ไม่ใช่คนมอญมึงจะมาเถียงกูได้ยังไงล่ะทำไมมึงทำร้ายภาษามอญ ๒ ครั้งแล้วนะมึงทำไมไม่ได้มาสอบถามกูสักหน่อยมึงจะมั่วอย่างเดียวมึงบ้าไปหรือเปล่ามึงหยุดทำให้กูโกรธได้ไหมได้ไหมผมคุยดีๆนะมึงจะรู้ตัวเองหรือเปล่าคำสะกดภาษามอญไทยแล้วคำสะกดภาษามอญพม่าไม่เหมือนการผสมได้ยังไงวะมึงก็มั่วอย่างเดียวไม่ได้มาสอบถามคนมอญ--Music writer Dr.Intobesa of Japanese idol NMB48 and BNK48. (talk) 07:40, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
I already sent you a message at thwikt. Wiktionary relies on references because the natives could make mistake sometimes. And please do not talk in rage. --Octahedron80 (talk) 07:45, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
This IP altered the etymology of วัง (wang). They seem to have a bit of a history doing this - would blocking them be a good idea? — surjection ⟨??⟩ 11:32, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
- Vandalism confirmed. He just deleted the fact that he didn't like. --Octahedron80 (talk) 12:29, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
Consultation on a certain Wordbook
What do you think of Webonary's Tai Lü Wordbook? @Alifshinobi, what do you think? --Apisite (talk) 00:04, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
- We already use it. It is the searchable version of Dai Lue-English Dictionary + more information. See copyright page. (I have a copy too!) --Octahedron80 (talk) 00:13, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
Eastern Cham and Western Cham
At the section for translations, Eastern Cham and Western Cham are sublanguages under Cham now, so I fixed blood/translations and others. --Apisite (talk) 08:02, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- OK thanks. I did not notice those. I use only translation tool to add terms. --Octahedron80 (talk) 08:04, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- They will be nested now with the translation tool, if you use 'cjm' or 'cja' codes. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 09:07, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- Now the same thing has been done to the Eastern Lawa and Western Lawa languages. --Apisite (talk) 11:03, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- They will be nested now with the translation tool, if you use 'cjm' or 'cja' codes. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 09:07, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
ว่ากันว่า
Hi, do you have an opinion as to whether ว่ากันว่า or ว่ากัน deserve an entry meaning "they say"? It doesn't look like sum-of-parts to me. It's in relation to the deletion discussion of they say. General Vicinity (talk) 23:21, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
- (เขา)ว่ากันว่า... is clearly SOP: เขา(they) / ว่า(say) / กัน(altogether) / ว่า(that). You may notice that Thai pronoun as the subject is often omitted in speaking. --Octahedron80 (talk) 08:12, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
ၵျွႃး rhyme
Hi User:Octahedron80: I was wondering if you could help me look into Module:shn-pron and whether there's an issue recognising the (ွႃ) vowel rhyme: it is generating a "Lua error in Module:shn-pron at line 92: Data for vowel (ွႃ) is missing." message. Thank you! -Hintha (talk) 17:04, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
- I had never seen that case before. It will be fixed soon. --Octahedron80 (talk) 04:42, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
- I checked Sealang and it reads /kjaa4/ so it should be respelled as ၵျႃး instead. --Octahedron80 (talk) 04:47, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
- Hi @Hintha, ၵျွႃး is completely misspelled, ၵျွႃး is written according to the pronunciation of the Burmese language, ၵျွႃး is not in Shan literature at all, I speak Shan language, I understand Shan literature at the first level, check out the ၵျွႃး Facebook discussion at this link, if you want to know about ၵျွႃး , you can ask User Saimawnkham who is proficient in Shan literature, thanks.--Music writer Dr.Intobesa of Japanese idol NMB48 and BNK48. (talk) 15:26, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
- Hi @Saimawnkham, Please join this ၵျွႃး discussion, thanks.--Music writer Dr.Intobesa of Japanese idol NMB48 and BNK48. (talk) 15:26, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
- Did you check the reference already? It might be the special case of spelling as it directly borrowed from Burmese. (Every language has exceptions, I think.) --Octahedron80 (talk) 16:44, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
- I don't see any clear evidence, I would like to say that this issue needs to be discussed with Shan mother literature experts, thanks. Music writer Dr.Intobesa of Japanese idol NMB48 and BNK48. (talk) 17:52, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
- I've added a non-durable semi-quotation to protect against grammar Nazis. The spelling looks very like a fact. I've also replaced the invocation of the undocumented template
{{shn-verb}}by{{head}}as the template/module lacks a transliteration override. The transliteration should be reviewed. --RichardW57 (talk) 23:46, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
- Did you check the reference already? It might be the special case of spelling as it directly borrowed from Burmese. (Every language has exceptions, I think.) --Octahedron80 (talk) 16:44, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
—Fish bowl (talk) 11:43, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
- What was that? By the way, Tai Yuan (Northern Thai) is never written in Roman. Don't believe him. --Octahedron80 (talk) 12:44, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
- It will appear in Roman script in the transliteration of inscriptions. If that is the system that @Namdamon has in mind, it merits consideration, though any words should also appear in either the native (script code Lana) or the imperial (script code Thai) script as their main lemma. It would help to have some documentation for the scheme, because it uses ill-documented, perhaps even idiosyncratic, extensions of IAST. I am willing to try to help out. --RichardW57 (talk) 13:42, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
Unicode names 017
Hi. We have images for block 017, but not the names. Do you think you could create Module:Unicode data/names/017? Or is that not needed because the names are generic?
Thanks, kwami (talk) 09:14, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- You do not need "names" for 017. It runs automatically by main module Module:Unicode data. It already iterates on numbers from TANGUT IDEOGRAPH-17000 to 17FFF. You may have to make "images" only. --Octahedron80 (talk) 09:20, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- Okay, thanks! kwami (talk) 09:51, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
Is the same true for Module:Unicode data/names/02F? I would think that could be automated too. kwami (talk) 03:50, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
- Have you see Module:Unicode data lines # 65-107 ? Any codepoints that already define in the same range will be unused. --Octahedron80 (talk) 05:32, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks. Should those codepoints be deleted then? kwami (talk) 13:59, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
- I noted in the modules, hope some admin see them. --Octahedron80 (talk) 16:59, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks. Should those codepoints be deleted then? kwami (talk) 13:59, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
I made a list of automated ranges at Unicode_data/documentation, so that others won't be confused as I was.
If you approve, I'll make a deletion request for Module:Unicode data/names/017, 018 and 02F. (We haven't discussed 018 yet.)
kwami (talk) 19:10, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
@Octahedron80 คำศัพท์ ထဝ်တၞး นั้น มันคำสะกดผิด เกี่ยวข้องก็คำศัพท์ ထဝ်တၞး คนจะได้พูดคุยก็ผู้เชี่ยวชาญหรือยัง อย่ามั่วดีกว่านะ ผมเป็นผู้เชี่ยวชาญภาษามอญ คุณจะได้สังเกตหรือเปล่า ผมเข้าใจภาษามอญไทยและมอญโบราณจะFacebook ผมเคยบอกคุณแล้วคุณจำได้หรือยัง คุณคิดว่าผมไม่เข้าใจภาษามอญไทยหรอ ถ้าคุณไม่เชื่อผม ลองสอบถามผู้เชี่ยวชาญ คุณไม่ต้องมาอ้างอิงเป็นคำมอญไทยลองไปสอบถามที่ Translate To MNW นะ คุณจะทำเป็นแบบนี้ผมไม่อภัยให้นะผมหน้าที่ต้องปกป้องรักษามอญ คุณจะอ้างอิงว่าเป็นคำมอญไทย เอาล่ะผมจะสอบถามโดยตรง มอญไทยทุกคนไม่ได้เขียนภาษามอญจะพูดภาษามอญนิดหน่อย เอาล่ะจะว่าพวกเขาเป็นผู้เชี่ยวชาญได้ยังไงล่ะ ขนาดพูดภาษามอญมันผสมกับภาษาไทยอยู่ ในประเทศพม่าก็เช่นกัน ขนาดพูดภาษามอญผสมกับภาษาพม่า เป็นผู้เชี่ยวชาญภาษามอญมีคนน้อยมาก เป็นเรื่องความจริงนี้คุณจะได้รู้หรือยัง คุณจะมาอ้างอิงว่าเป็นคำมอญไทย คุณคิดว่าผมเป็นคนบ้าหรอ คุณทำให้ผมโกรธมากอนอีกแล้วนะ เรื่องภาษาไทยคุณจะคิดยังไงก็เรื่องของคุณผมไม่ยุ่งด้วย แต่ว่า เกี่ยวข้องภาษามอญอย่ามามั่ว ผมยังไงก็ไม่อนุญาต คุณไม่เข้าใจภาษามอญทำไมไม่ได้มาสอบถามผมล่ะ--Music writer Dr.Intobesa of Japanese idol NMB48 and BNK48. (talk) 03:28, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- @咽頭べさ ไม่สะกดผิดครับคุณ ผมก็เพิ่งเช็กมา หนังสืออ้างอิงก็ลงไว้แล้ว คุณอยากดูรูปไหมล่ะ (คนเขียนพจนานุกรมคือแก่-ตายหมดแล้ว คุณคิดว่าพวกเขาไม่เชี่ยวชาญหรือ?) คุณก็รู้ว่า มอญไทยกับมอญพม่าต่างกัน และบางคำอาจใช้ต่างกัน ดูอย่างภาษาจีนก็ได้ ภาษาจีนมีหลายถิ่น บางทีใช้คำสลับกันหน้าหลัง AB หรือ BA ก็มี เราก็ต้องบันทึกไว้หมด ผมไม่ได้บอกว่า တၞးထဝ် ของคุณผิด แต่ในขณะเดียวกัน ထဝ်တၞး ของผมก็ไม่ผิดเช่นกัน เพราะพวกเขาใช้กันมาแบบนี้ คุณจะเอามอญแบบที่คุณรู้เท่านั้นไม่ได้ครับ ขอให้ใจกว้างด้วย // Both are correct in different regions. It is common phenomenon in linguistics. --Octahedron80 (talk) 03:33, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Octahedron80 คำสะกดมอญก็คำสะกดไทยเหมือนกัน แต่ ไม่เหมือนตัวอักษรก็ภาษาเท่านั้น คำสะกดอังกฤษพม่าไม่เหมือนก็คำสะกดมอญ ขณะนี้คุณก็จะได้รู้หรือเปล่า คนมีหลายคนเขียนภาษามอญผิดพลาดมากมาย เรื่องปัญหานี้ทุกคนไม่รู้จักรู้จักแต่ผู้เชี่ยวชาญเท่านั้น ที่แบบคุณเขียนเอาไว้ ในหนังสือโบราณก็ไม่มี หนังสือสมัยใหม่ก็ไม่มี ภาษามอญไทยก็ภาษามอญโบราณ คำสะกดและสไตล์การเขียนเหมือนการ ภาษามอญไทยต้องเรียกว่าเป็นภาษาโบราณ ผมเองก็ผู้เชี่ยวชาญ มอญไทยและมอญเกาหลีทั้งมอญพม่าด้วย ไม่มีหรอกแบบที่คนเขียนเอาไว้ อย่ามาพยายามจะเถียงผม คุณลองมองหาผู้เชี่ยวชาญก่อน ผมเองไม่รู้จักวิธีการใช้วิกิก็เป็นไปได้ ไม่รู้จักเกี่ยวก็ภาษามอญเป็นไปไม่ได้หรอก จะเรียนรู้มาเยอะมากแล้ว คือเป็นเจ้าหน้าที่เก็บดูแลหนังสือโบราณประเทศชาติพม่า อันนี้เป็นวิกิพจนานุกรม เวลาการเขียนพจนานุกรมต้องระวังการเขียนมากมาย ถ้าเขียนผิดพลาดบางอย่างสำหรับผู้เรียนรู้มีความผิดก็ได้ คุณลองตรวจสอบทั้งหมดก่อนนะ ถ้าคำเขียนของคุณถูกต้องผมก็ยินดี ถ้าคำเขียนของคุณไม่ถูกต้องผมอนุญาตให้ไม่ได้หรอก อย่ามาพูดใจกว้าง ขณะวิกิพีเดียภาษาไทย ผมเคยเขียนบทความ พระสงฆ์อะระหัง แค่คำสะกดไทยผิดพลาดไปนิดหน่อย พวกมันไม่อนุญาตจะลบออกเฉยเลย ขณะคนไทยพวกเราจะเขียนผิดคำสะกดแอดมินไทย พวกเขาไม่อนุญาต และวิกิพีเดียญี่ปุ่น ไม่อนุญาตเช่นกันแล้วจะบล็อกบัญชีด้วย พวกมันก็ใจไม่กว้าง ผมก็ต้องใจกว้างได้ยังไงล่ะ ความจริงนั้น พวกเขาเป็นแอดมิน ต้องสอนให้วิธีการใช้สักหน่อยไม่ได้หรอ ทำไมต้องพยายามล็อกบัญชีผู้อื่น ผมจะมาโครงการวิกิแค่มาความช่วยเหลือเท่านั้น การกระทำของฉันคุณก็มองเห็นอยู่ดี ผมเป็นคนแบบไหน--Music writer Dr.Intobesa of Japanese idol NMB48 and BNK48. (talk) 09:46, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- ผมทราบมาว่า คำคุณศัพท์ในภาษามอญนั้น วางข้างหลังคำนาม อย่างกรณีทองคำเปลวนี้ ထဝ်(n)+တၞး(adj) คือ ทองคำที่เป็นแผ่นเป็นใบ (ไทยก็มีคำว่า ทองใบ) ดังนั้นผมจึงคิดว่า ထဝ်တၞး น่าจะถูกกว่า တၞးထဝ် ซึ่ง တၞး(n)+ထဝ်(adj) แปลตรงตัวว่า ใบไม้สีทอง (gold leaf คือทองคำแผ่น มิใช่ใบไม้สีทอง) คุณอาจไม่พบในมอญโบราณ เพราะถูกประสมขึ้นในมอญสมัยใหม่ เพื่อใช้เรียกสิ่งของที่ไม่เคยมีในอดีต ผมไม่รู้ว่ามอญพม่าเรียกอะไร แต่อย่างน้อย มอญไทยมีศัพท์คำนี้ ထဝ်တၞး อยู่ในคลัง ในทางตรงข้าม ผมก็หา တၞးထဝ် ไม่เจอเช่นกัน // อันที่จริง ผมก็ไม่ค่อยชอบคำว่า gold leaf เพราะมันผิดหลักภาษาอังกฤษ --Octahedron80 (talk) 09:48, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Octahedron80 ถ้าใช้ ထဝ်တၞး/ทองใบ ก็ได้ แต่ผิดพลาดในวรรณกรรม ในวรรณกรรมภาษามอญเราก็เลิกกันใช้ มีคำศัพท์มากมาย เพราะว่าผิดพลาดในวรรณกรรม พยัญชนะมอญเคยมี ๘๕ ตัว พวกเราเป็นผู้เชี่ยวชาญ เลือกใช้งานบางตัวอักษร ตัวอักษรมอญครั้งแรกเหมือนกันก็ตัวอักษรปยู พวกเราเป็นผู้เชี่ยวชาญพัฒนาภาษามอญหลายครั้ง ปัจจุบันพยัญชนะมอญ ๓๕ ตัว คนมอญหลายคนส่วนใหญ่พวกเขาไม่ค่อยเข้าใจภาษามอญ เพราะว่าพวกเขาส่วนใหญ่คิดว่า ถ้าจะพูดภาษามอญน่าอาย ผมเองก็เคยเจอมาหลายครั้ง ตอนผมเดินทางประเทศไทยคนไทยจะสอบถามผมว่าคนเป็นเขมร บางคนจะสอบถามว่าคนเป็นพม่าหรือ ผมก็จะโดนพูดว่าแบบนี้จะโกรธมาก มองย้อนกลับไปฉันรู้สึกเสียใจกับตัวเองมาก เพราะว่าพวกเราเป็นคนไม่มีประเทศชาติ สำหรับการพัฒนาภาษาตัวเองก็ไม่ใช่เรื่องง่าย ปัจจุบันเป็นผู้เชี่ยวชาญการพัฒนาภาษามอญจะเหลืออยู่ผมคนเดียวคนอื่นพวกเขาไม่สนใจแล้ว ผมเคยไปพูดคุยกับพวกเขาแล้วพวกเขาพูดว่าทักเขียนภาษามอญใครจะอ่านออก พวกเขาจะพูดแบบนี้ผมก็เสียใจมากแต่ยังไงก็ช่างมัน เกี่ยวข้องกับการพัฒนาภาษามอญยังไงก็ผมทำงานต่อไป ที่วิกิพจนานุกรมภาษามอญมีแต่ผมคนเดียวน่าจะคุณจะสังเกตได้หรือเปล่า แบบคำสะกด ထဝ်တၞး นั้นเราไม่อยากใช้งาน เพราะว่าเป็นการสไตล์เขียนแบบพม่าหรือแบบอังกฤษ ในภาษามอญเกาหลีก็ไม่มี ผมเคยเห็นใน Facebook เราไม่รับโพสต์ภาษามอญบน Facebook อย่างเป็นทางการ เพราะว่าเป็นการเขียนผิดพลาดมากมาย และ หนังสือพจนานุกรมมอญ-ไทย และ มอญ-ญี่ปุ่น หนังสือพจนานุกรมมอญ-ไทย และ มอญ-ญี่ปุ่น ใช้ไม่ได้ทั้งหมดเพราะว่าการผิดพลาดบางคำ เว็บไซต์พจนานุกรมมอญ ก็มีผิดพลาดบางคำเช่นการ เป็นเรื่องความจริงนี้ทุกคนไม่รู้หรอกรู้แต่ผู้เชี่ยวชาญเท่านั้น ขนาดเป็นคนมอญแท้ๆเขียนหนังสือมอญผิดพลาดมากมายผมเคยเจอมาแล้ว บางคนเขาพูดว่าผมจะพูดภาษามอญพวกเขาไม่ค่อยเข้าใจ เพราะว่าผมเป็นคนจะพูดภาษามอญไม่ได้ผสมกับภาษาอื่นเลย ผมเคยจะมาเที่ยวบางกระดี่กรุงเทพฯ ผมจะได้พบก็มอญไทยผมลองไปพูดคุยกับพวกเขา พวกเขาจะพูดผสมกับภาษาไทยอยู่ ผมจะรู้เรื่องพูดภาษาของเขาหมดเพราะว่าผมเป็นคนเข้าใจภาษาไทยอยู่แล้วไง พวกเขาไม่ค่อยเข้าใจคำพูดผม มอญเกาหลีและมอญพม่าเช่นกัน สำหรับพจนานุกรม แบบที่พวกเขาใช้อยู่ผมไม่ต้องการใช้งานเพราะว่ามันไม่ถูกต้อง มอญเกาหลี-มอญไทย-มอญพม่า ผมจะรู้อยู่ทั้งหมดพวกเขาจะพูดแบบไหน ผมเก่งทั้งพม่าทั้งเกาหลีทั้งญี่ปุ่นทั้งไทยด้วยผมไม่รู้เป็นไปได้ยังไง ผมเองก็ชอบเดินทางไปทั่วประเทศ สำหรับความรู้ที่ผมไม่รู้จักน้อยมาก--Music writer Dr.Intobesa of Japanese idol NMB48 and BNK48. (talk) 14:25, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
Module error at ແນວໃດ
I don't know whose fault this is, but you seem like the best person to fix it. Please take a look. Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 15:26, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
- -ວ can be cluster or final. It will be firstly detected as cluster. So you must add + before ວ to indicate final: ແນ+ວ. --Octahedron80 (talk) 06:40, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
เกาเหลา
Please check Special:Diff/65349543/66411093; I reverted it as possible vandalism, but if that sense really exists and is attested, please verify and re-add it under a ===Proper noun=== header. Thanks! —Svārtava (t/u) • 09:51, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
- I think only few people might use เกาเหลา for เกาหลี, but it already means an idiom (verb). There is more widespread เกาหี, 500k+ results, that should be kept instead. --Octahedron80 (talk) 11:14, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
- Could you edit the page accordingly? —Svārtava (t/u) • 11:15, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
emojibox
Hi. I see you've been adding {-}{emojibox} to the top of a lot of articles. The {-} forces a page of blank space before the text begins, and so needs to be deleted. But the box doesn't align properly otherwise. I've tried fixing it, but no luck. Could you please format the box so that it aligns properly? Meanwhile, I've been moving it to the end of the articles so it doesn't displace the text. Thanks. kwami (talk) 08:33, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
Maybe it could be merged into {character info} as a parameter (e.g. emoji_alt=yes or something). kwami (talk) 08:58, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- The template is actually experimental. It should not be merged into character box since some emojis consist of multiple characters. You may want to delete instead. --Octahedron80 (talk) 01:55, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
OOF
Loved that oof with the self revert 55555. Hey if it happens it happens Rolando 1208 (talk) 09:08, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
- I don't remember which term you mentioned because I have reverted myself a lot. I usually open a few pages/wikis at the same time so I might save at wrong one. --Octahedron80 (talk) 09:28, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
สงสัยอีกคำ
คำว่า มอ นี่ไม่ได้มาจากเขมร หรือ เห็นใส่เป็นคำละว้า มอ - Wiktionary 2001:FB1:8A:BBC0:497D:8C6B:746D:FAD8 21:12, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- คุณเอาไปเทียบกับ "ผามออีแดง" งั้นหรือ? มอ (មរ) ที่ว่า ไม่ได้แปลว่าภูเขา แต่แปลว่า ตาย ตามตำนาน คณะครูซึ่งมีคนหนึ่งชื่อแดง ไปศึกษาภาพแกะสลักแล้วตายที่นั่น (ตอนนั้นยังไม่มีชื่อ) ก็เลยตั้งชื่อให้ว่าผามออีแดง --Octahedron80 (talk) 01:36, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
The module error seems to be a result of your edits to Module:shn-pron. Chuck Entz (talk) 07:44, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- What the world on this word. I believe the last consonant won't be read, or it must spell မၢၶျ်ႉ at first.--Octahedron80 (talk) 07:52, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
麥芽糖
Special:Diff/72697178/72697206 Do you have a source that those are the terms used in all three cities? — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 15:03, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- 麥生(糖) From Teochew descendant itself https://twitter.com/thaibornchinese/status/1610570638485499904 that I also put in แบะแซ. This is local word created by Teochew immigrants. (It is surely different from China usage.) And we still use "แบะแซ" todays. I am sure it is used all over the country as well as Thai word is here. --Octahedron80 (talk) 17:41, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- Also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y9-_wQ1428 at 2:56. He is the 3rd generation making แบะแซ, that assumes it have been exist >100 years. --Octahedron80 (talk) 18:04, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- Do you know which city this Twitter user and the person featured in the video are from? We should not be making assumptions that words exist across the country. I also only see/hear 麥生, not 麥生糖. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 18:40, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- Teochew (or Chinese) people spread throughout Thailand. Can we pinpoint which one is? Who adds these towns at first? It should be only one per dialect (just Thailand-MN-T) because they are not different between cities. Thailand 's Chinese communities don't live so far away like China. (The whole Thailand is large as just one Chinese province.) If you want exact point, I could say Bangkok because it's the biggest community. Or it must be listed recklessly tens of them. 麥生糖 is in Twitter's thread already said to be grammarful, that Thai word is partly borrowed. 麥生 also mean malt, but Thai didn't call the malt แบะแซ. (We call มอลต์ either.) So two Teochew words 麥生 and 麥生糖 happen. Octahedron80 (talk) 23:56, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- The data mainly comes from what is recorded in 泰国华人社区的汉语方言, which has data from three subdialects of Thailand Teochew. It unfortunately doesn't have an entry for 麥芽糖 so I can't confirm from there. I don't think we should just blindly put data in all Thailand dialect points because we assume that there are no differences between cities. Even within one Chinese province, there's plenty of differences. Are there people in Bangkok (or another city/town) that you can confirm these two words with? — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 14:51, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- I am out. Do what you want. It took years someone would say about it. Octahedron80 (talk) 14:57, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- Sorry for being particular. I've left Bangkok in there. In the future, I guess it would be fine if you would put data under 'Thailand-MN-T' unless we have more data (like from 泰国华人社区的汉语方言). — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 15:15, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- I am out. Do what you want. It took years someone would say about it. Octahedron80 (talk) 14:57, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- The data mainly comes from what is recorded in 泰国华人社区的汉语方言, which has data from three subdialects of Thailand Teochew. It unfortunately doesn't have an entry for 麥芽糖 so I can't confirm from there. I don't think we should just blindly put data in all Thailand dialect points because we assume that there are no differences between cities. Even within one Chinese province, there's plenty of differences. Are there people in Bangkok (or another city/town) that you can confirm these two words with? — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 14:51, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- Teochew (or Chinese) people spread throughout Thailand. Can we pinpoint which one is? Who adds these towns at first? It should be only one per dialect (just Thailand-MN-T) because they are not different between cities. Thailand 's Chinese communities don't live so far away like China. (The whole Thailand is large as just one Chinese province.) If you want exact point, I could say Bangkok because it's the biggest community. Or it must be listed recklessly tens of them. 麥生糖 is in Twitter's thread already said to be grammarful, that Thai word is partly borrowed. 麥生 also mean malt, but Thai didn't call the malt แบะแซ. (We call มอลต์ either.) So two Teochew words 麥生 and 麥生糖 happen. Octahedron80 (talk) 23:56, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- Do you know which city this Twitter user and the person featured in the video are from? We should not be making assumptions that words exist across the country. I also only see/hear 麥生, not 麥生糖. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 18:40, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
รัก
คำว่า รัก ไม่ใช่ คำจาก Proto-Southwestern Tai หรอกหรือ? ไปเห็นมา ในนี่ Tai languages - Wikipedia พอมาดู wiktionary บอกมาจากมอญ-เขมร 2001:FB1:8A:9758:A0A4:C33D:663D:CF41 15:05, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
PSWT (ยังไม่ได้ใส่) ไม่ใช่ระดับที่อยู่บนสุดครับ ระดับเหนือกว่าอาจจะมีอย่างอื่นนอกจาก PT อาจจะเป็น PMK หรือ Chinese ก็ได้--Octahedron80 (talk) 15:10, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
ผมไปดูมา PSWT *rak.DS4 มันมีเฉพาะในความหมาย lacquer tree ดูเผิน ๆ เหมือนน่าจะรวมเป็น love ได้แต่คงจะมีองค์ประกอบไม่ครบ คือบางภาษาไม่สามารถรวมได้ --Octahedron80 (talk) 15:38, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
Urak Lawoi' transliteration module
Hi, I'm currently writing a transliteration module for the Urak Lawoi' language according to this publication. Given your knowledge in this field, I wonder if you're able to work on this module as well? Thank you! — oi yeah nah mate amazingJUSSO ... ! 00:21, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
- Urak Lawoi' language is officially announced to be written in Thai script. The issue is that the difficulty of transliteration/pronunciation will be the same level as Thai language; it might have some tokenizing problem. And thanks god they have no tone. --Octahedron80 (talk) 02:02, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oh interesting, I know the language uses the Thai script, but wasn't aware that it's going to be official. I wonder, do you know if there is guideline for transliteration? It'll be good for my knowledge. For the tokenisation, I have worked on a solution similar to Module:lo-translit. As far as I know, it doesn't use the entire Thai alphabet. — oi yeah nah mate amazingJUSSO ... ! 12:45, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
Hi, I just found that this appendix does not have the complete character list yet, so I tried the same wikitext used in other page, but it would not work. Do you know how to fix that? --TongcyDai (talk) TongcyDai (talk) 19:19, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- We will fix it little by little. We are just starting. Don't rush. :) --Octahedron80 (talk) 02:17, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- The module pages containing Unicode data need to be updated. 2607:FB91:322:8B42:818B:A75A:3BC1:E988 04:29, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
Ideographic description characters images
Greetings, I have noticed you're the one who generated the images for Appendix:Unicode/Ideographic_Description_Characters. Unicode has expanded the list to include U+2FFC, U+2FFD, U+2FFE, U+2FFF, and U+31EF (Details on https://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/Unicode-15.1/U151-2FF0.pdf and https://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/Unicode-15.1/U151-31C0.pdf). Will you also generate the images for those characters as well? If not, how did you generate the images (like font, method, etc)? Thank you. Ekirahardian (talk) 12:06, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- I didn't commonly make character images. It's so much work. The IDS's are just geometric shapes. And I already lost source files. --Octahedron80 (talk) 14:36, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Ah, that's unfortunate, thanks anyway. Ekirahardian (talk) 15:48, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
Hi,
Thank you for your effort on Lao. Have you seen a Lao dictionary, which uses a transliteration system, which is very similar to Paiboon? It has similar symbols and what's more important, it has tone marks.
If you're interested, I can get the title and make some screenshots. It's in our city library. It's expensive to buy, though, although it's rather small, it's the same format as the one used by Template:R:th:BPBecker. (Similar dictionaries exist for Burmese and, if I'm not mistaken for Khmer).
Pinging @Theknightwho who also edited Module:lo-translit. Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:55, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
cancel th-syn-list
Hi, your bot is introducing errors due to the |see= param, which isn't supported by {{col3}}. Benwing2 (talk) 05:55, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
- OK I am finding a way to fix this. --Octahedron80 (talk) 05:56, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
The pronunciation of ꪻ in Tai Dam
Hi, I see that you transcribe ꪻ in narrow transcription as , but from what I know Tai Dam does not have /ɰ/ in its phonology, or does it have /aɰ/. It does have have /əw/ though, and that’s what ꪻ represents in Tai Dam according to what I have read. But perhaps my sources are wrong? Can you clarify why you use /aɰ/ instead of /əw/ for ꪻ? Thank you. Monarchatto (talk) 04:16, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Monarchatto I used to use /əw/ either from the Unicode document. But a true linguist (Alifshinobi) had described to me at th:คุยกับผู้ใช้:Octahedron80/กรุ_4#blt-pron that /əw/ might not correct and then I changed into /aɰ/ instead. -Octahedron80 (talk) 04:26, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- P.S. Proto-Tai /*aɰ/ is the common vowel in Tai languages.
- I see. But when I translate it (I don’t speak Thai), it seems like Alifshinobi never said it was /aɰ/, but they did say /aɯ/, /ai/, /ɤ/ were used by the Thai dialects, and only /aɯ/ was used in the Lao and Vietnam dialects. Maybe it wasn’t able to translate well or I missed something. Monarchatto (talk) 00:04, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- In fact, I feel like I definitely hear /aɯ/ in songs like this one from 0:50 - 058 (in words like ꪻꪊ,1 ꪻꪠ, ꪻꪬ꫁)
- Weirdly, it uses low form cho in the video (for example: ꪻꪌ - chaw) and transcribes it as “ch”, but at the same time for the high form of it it uses the high form of cho (for example: ꪋ꪿ꪺ - chua) instead of ꪍ. So because of that, and also because Tai Dam has no / t͡ɕʰ/ in its inventory, that it must be an error and was meant to be <ꪻꪊ> instead. If I’m wrong about this, please correct me. Thank you
- Monarchatto (talk) 12:16, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- In fact, I feel like I definitely hear /aɯ/ in songs like this one from 0:50 - 058 (in words like ꪻꪊ,1 ꪻꪠ, ꪻꪬ꫁)
- I see. But when I translate it (I don’t speak Thai), it seems like Alifshinobi never said it was /aɰ/, but they did say /aɯ/, /ai/, /ɤ/ were used by the Thai dialects, and only /aɯ/ was used in the Lao and Vietnam dialects. Maybe it wasn’t able to translate well or I missed something. Monarchatto (talk) 00:04, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- All letters in Tai Viet script is based on Tai Dam (Black Tai). Some letters (sounds) are used to express loanwords and names (esp. Vietnamese, Chinese). That means /t͡ɕʰ/ is allowed in Tai Dam. However, <ꪻꪌ> might be the misspelling of <ꪻꪊ> in the video. Instead, the current Tai Viet script cannot be fully used to write Tai Dón (White Tai); some letters are still missing. Tai Dón uses different alphabet (letter set) against Tai Dam. They are in the proposing process. --Octahedron80 (talk) 00:52, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oh I see. That’s interesting. Good to know, thank you. Still though, what are your thoughts on how ꪻ is pronounced in the video? Do you think it’s /aɯ/ or /aɰ/? Monarchatto (talk) 04:41, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- /aɯ/ vs /aɰ/ is the same. It feels like /ai/ vs /aj/ and /au-ao/ vs /aw/. The second case should be used because it ends the syllable (final, no more consonant). --Octahedron80 (talk) 04:46, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oh I see. That’s interesting. Good to know, thank you. Still though, what are your thoughts on how ꪻ is pronounced in the video? Do you think it’s /aɯ/ or /aɰ/? Monarchatto (talk) 04:41, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- All letters in Tai Viet script is based on Tai Dam (Black Tai). Some letters (sounds) are used to express loanwords and names (esp. Vietnamese, Chinese). That means /t͡ɕʰ/ is allowed in Tai Dam. However, <ꪻꪌ> might be the misspelling of <ꪻꪊ> in the video. Instead, the current Tai Viet script cannot be fully used to write Tai Dón (White Tai); some letters are still missing. Tai Dón uses different alphabet (letter set) against Tai Dam. They are in the proposing process. --Octahedron80 (talk) 00:52, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
Romaji entries
Why are you changing romaji entries of syllables without any consensus whatsoever? Chuterix (talk) 19:57, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- I just replace with template which it is made for. And no one seems to revert in the moment. By the way, I just learn Japanese that the extend katakanas and romajis do not appear to have matching hiraganas because they are made for foreign words. (No usage means not exist) See also w:Hepburn romanization. If each hiragana in question has some reference, we can add it back. Octahedron80 (talk) 23:28, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
Pwo dictionary?
Hi, I've just come accross A Pwo-Burmese-English dictionary, and I can't figure out which Pwo lect it is. It looks like Northern Pwo, and features things like wá ("husband") but s/θwí ("blood"), yet it's written fully in the Burmese script. Do you know anything about it perhaps? Should we start documenting Northern Pwo in Burmese script? The dictionary itself is seemingly also published in Thailand, which adds to the confusion... Thadh (talk) 13:56, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Thadh I am making Northern Pwo in Thai script at thwikt. I could compare that blue book with Omkoi. Same etyma should have same vowels and tones (or very close to, at least) if they are same Northern Pwo. There are 4 tones in open syllables, middle, low, falling, and high. Use Kato's tones, they can be noted by middle dot, no dot, under dot, and double dots, respectively. There are 2 tones in (air-)checked syllable (ˀ), falling (but pratically became high) and low.
- I compared some words. I assumed the book read similar to Omkoi:
- Omkoi แม๊ (wife) (Thai sound: แม้) but the book says မာ့ (ม้า) (Thai sound: ม่า).
- Omkoi มี้ (rice) (Thai sound: มี่) but the book says မေဝ် (เม่ว) (Thai sound: เหฺม่ว).
- Omkoi แว (bamboo) but the book says ဝး (ว๊ะ) (Thai sound: วะ).
- Omkoi เอ้ง (ginger) but the book says အိင် (อิ่ง).
- Omkoi แง̱ (evening) but the book says ဟှး (ง๊̱ะ ?). (ง with macron below, ง̱, stands for consonant /ɰ/)
- So different, I conclude that the book is not Northern Pwo. Instead, I think it should be Eastern Pwo, judged by how it writes using Mon alphabet.
- Todays where a book was printed is not important. My Dai Lue dictionary was printed in China but its publisher located in Chiang Mai. --Octahedron80 (talk) 19:27, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
- I compared the tones and vowels with Hpa-an Pwo by Kato, and it's not Eastern Pwo, at least not a usual dialect. It might also be a Southern Pwo lect, I'll take a look tomorrow if the tones match, but I don't think so... Thadh (talk) 20:01, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
- Okay, I've checked more words, and it's just Hpa-an Pwo it seems... Somehow the tone for "husband" was the other way around than Kato has documented. I'm in the process of making User:Thadh/Pwo with a small comparative vocab of the various lects, so I know what we're working on. Feel free to add words to it if you're interested. Thadh (talk) 15:47, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- I compared the tones and vowels with Hpa-an Pwo by Kato, and it's not Eastern Pwo, at least not a usual dialect. It might also be a Southern Pwo lect, I'll take a look tomorrow if the tones match, but I don't think so... Thadh (talk) 20:01, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
Sanskrit noun in etymology
Hi. I just corrected the Sanskrit noun given in the etymology sections here: สังเคราะห์ and สงเคราะห์. In Monier Williams' Sanskrit dictionary there is no entry for *saṅgraha given that the consonantal cluster -ṃg(r)- in Sanskrit is mostly converted to -ṅg- in Pāli. So if you happen to find evidence for *saṅgraha, feel free to readjust it. Bogorm converſation 08:48, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Bogorm Lots of सङ्ग्रह in please check that. (It's only my source.) My little knowledge only knows that nasal clusters in Sanskrit are converted into anusvāra (ṃ) in Hindi. Perhaps संग्रह is a special case. --Octahedron80 (talk) 08:55, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Also सङ्ग्रह has lots of usage out there. --Octahedron80 (talk) 09:19, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- सङ्ग्रह appears in multiple Nepalese results at a first glance, so I am doubtful as to whether it can be attested in Sanskrit results. Perhaps it is worth mentioning it as a Nepalese cognate. Pinging more knowledgeable contributors of Sanskrit who could determine if सङ्ग्रह is an admissible Sanskrit spelling (albeit absent from Monier Williams' dictionary) or संग्रह is the only one: @Syzarn @AryamanA @Caoimhin ceallach. Bogorm converſation 19:43, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- संग्रह (saṃgraha) is indeed the correct spelling of the word in Sanskrit. The prefix सम्- (sam-) becomes सं- (saṃ-) before consonants. See Otto Böhtlingk, Richard Schmidt (1879-1928) “संग्रह”, in Walter Slaje, Jürgen Hanneder, Paul Molitor, Jörg Ritter, editors, Nachtragswörterbuch des Sanskrit (in German), Halle-Wittenberg: Martin-Luther-Universität, published 2016. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 22:08, 21 August 2024 (UTC)