User talk:Sarri.greek/2017

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Sarri.greek ♫

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Could you please {{ping|Sarri.greek}} because this page does not alert. Thank you!

Please can you help with this term (αναλόγιο μουσικής (analógio mousikís)). Would you say that the plural is αναλόγια μουσικής (analógia mousikís) or αναλόγια μουσικών (analógia mousikón) (or both) ? In English the second of these would be incorrect since music does not have a plural form, so we would say "Have you got the music?" meaning have you brought the score or scores (score = sheet music = παρτιτούρες)

Thanks again — Saltmarsh. 06:22, 12 October 2017 (UTC)Reply

sarri.greek 171012. αναλόγιο (μουσικής). plural: αναλόγια (μουσικής)
1) αναλόγιο = a stand or furniture for reading books or music scores. (cf. the greekpage: 'stand for reading'). the 'μουσικής' explanation, is not used necessarily, only implied. Musicians say: give me the αναλόγιο. So, plural would be αναλόγια (μουσικής) = αναλόγια for music. Αναλόγια μουσικών is not a plural. It just means: the αναλόγια used by many musicians. I do not think that a separate page would be needed for the expression 'αναλόγιο μουσικής' at all. You may mention the plural within the definition 2 (pl: αναλόγια μουσικής)? By the way. The IPA for analogio is /anaˈlojio/ I am checking the greekpage now. They do not have your inflection. Shouldn't they?
1b) yes the expression Have you got the music? in gre: Έχεις τη μουσική? would also mean: Do you have the score?
2) Ooops. I just read the αναγνωστήρι page. Careful: there is NO word 'αναγνωστήρι'. Only 'αναγνωστήριο' (gre.anc: ἀναγνωστήριον) plurals for BOTH: αναγνωστήρια = room for reading (e.g. in libraries, schools, etc).
3) DO you want me to copy for you verbatim the lemmata from Babiniotis and from Institute.Triantafyllidis dictionaries? I have them here, next to me, (I presume, you have them too) but I can do such work for you (typing) to save your valid time. I do not know how to edit things in Wiktionary as you do, but at least, I can save you from typing. I can email them to you. And anything else you need. Love, Katerina.Sarri.greek (talk) 18:27, 12 October 2017 (UTC)Reply

1) thanks - I've annotated the entry
2) Babiniotis doesn't have 'αναγνωστήρι' but it is in my small Oxford dictionary (labelled εκκλ ie church) and also on Πύλη ατ here.
3) Please have a bash at doing an entry - just a few to start with. Things can always be re-edited or even deleted!
— Saltmarsh. 06:23, 13 October 2017 (UTC)Reply

sarri.greek 171018 answering on 2: You are so right! I found it in two old dictionaries of the 1930s. It is mediaeval ecclesiastical from Koine. Babiniotis does not have it because it is not used in modern greek. Your Oxford source is great. For the ears of a contemporary greek it sound funny... something like σκαλιστήρι or some other instrument. As for 3: I presume there are rules on what sources should be used, what words are missing, etc. Although i can write .htm pages, I dare not touch the templates.
When browsing, I check the eng-page, the greek-page and sometimes the german-page. I do not understand why pages differ. I would expect a coordination. Also, the sources cited as in the pages for gre.ancient. Good night! sarri.greek (talk) 02:17, 18 October 2017 (UTC)Reply

sarri again. Good morning! I had your recommended 'bash' with αντικλεπτικός. No idea how to write the links... and the IPA, I did it as I usually write it. but system says there's something wrong with it. sarri.greek (talk) 05:55, 18 October 2017 (UTC)Reply

from sarri.greek. 2017.11.02. Thank you, for your concern, for adding Babel to my userpage, but: Why have i erased the Babel feature?

1. i speak only two languages. my native is obvious from my username. If i spoke more than three languages, i would have used it.
2. probably Babel creates a notice on who-speaks-what lists, but at the moment, i am reading and learning, so, i do not wish to expose myself more.
3. from the first day i came as a visitor to wiktionaries, i found Babel a bit weird... I mean, these little phrases... :) lol Could be simpler: el = lang:greek: native / eng: lang:english, good. etc.

• Babel@wikipedia BabelExt@mediawiki

sarri.greek 2017.11.09. (see COMMENTS at end)
This is a revision of some of my thoughts, as a greek newcomer in wiktionary. My wise mentor Saltmarsh, pointed out that it was too long, so here are my points.
Observations on the Division of Greek in Wiktionaries .
--I would like the wiktionary wording 'Greek' to become: 'Greek Modern'.
--I would like the two pages for ONE word of gre.anc. and gre.mod. to be linked prominently, or in disambiguation-page (not just the common 'See also: xxx' at top of page, or at Descendants which is somewhere at the bottom of the page).
--Here is why:

• I fully understand the wiktionary-policy of creating separate pages for different scipts of words. (sciptform=entry=page) But:

1. the word Greek in indexing

• I.S.O. has indexed/named languages with criterion: xx first letters of endonym.
• But in dictionaries? especially the ones for an international audience?
• With the word 'greek' i understand all greek languages. The word chinese, for all Chinese languages.

e.g. difficulty in finding chinese bu when looking for e.g. bu#mandarin

in Lists for many languges: ancient greek is under A, not G, so far away from her child, Greek, Or Greek (Modern) from its mother Ancient Greek.

2. greek with or without diacritics in wiktionary

• In greek, polytonic script is used for Ancient Greek, but also was used for all greek until 1982. The change to the more simple monotonic did not reflect any change in pronunciation or grammar, and definately not in language.
• in wiktionary they split in 2 languages. But they are one!

I need ὁδός and οδός to be one: they are both 'greek'. It would be ideal for me to have them in the same page... Unlike répertoire, repertoire and Repertoire 3 scripts-3 languages. .

e.g. My surname is Σαρρή. My grandmother who was not an ancient greek signed Σαῤῥῆ, I signed until 1982 Σαρρῆ, and now I sign Σαρρή. Same language. Same script. Different diacritics. Now, if you make an entry on me, would you split me in two pages?

• true, there are words that do NOT appear in Modern Greek, but only in Ancient. They few that did not survive.

e.g. ἄρουρα@perseus This belongs to Anc.Greek exclusively.

about katharevousa

• The word άεροπλανοφόρον is Kathareuousa only, because there were no airplanes in ancient greece. Separate entry. And αεροπλανοφόρο is the Mod.Greek entry.
• A today's (2017) greek under the age of 40, has NEVER been exposed to katharevousa. By birth we speak modern greek and at schools we also learn ancient (mostly attic version). When we use a casus dativus, we do not think of katharevousa at all. Most, use an ancient expression without realizing it. Others, just swap to ancient consciously.

- - - - - - - -

by sarri:

And, after so long, I found this: Category:Hellenic_languages Why isn't the parent language easily visible from the pages, accessible to a visitor? to an editor? So, no split for greek (grc) and el after all. It's just the word 'greek' for us greeks, = Hellenic. We don't have two words (well, we do: we speak τη γραικική, τα ρωμαίικα). But the anglophones use the linguistics-terms for the families of languages. 5 November 2017, rev sarri.greek (talk) 07:05, 9 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

by Saltmash (comments for the previous LONG article): sic:

• You have said a quite lot above - so I may miss some points. It might be better in future to split them up under separate wikitext headings.

(1a) Language headings - modern Greek is called "Greek" in the same way that modern English is called "English" and Mediaeval/Middle English is called "Middle English" here (see "bake" which comes in both languages. (If you haven't already done it - you can go some way towards getting things on the same screen by clicking "Enable Tabbed Languages" on your preferences page under "Preferences/Gadgets/User interface gadgets".)

(1b) I assume that the language(s) are split as they are because of the two fields of interest Ancient (=Classics & Bible studies) and the Rest. So the break point isn't exactly arbitrary. I am not the right person to try and get all Greek terms (A&M) under one heaading. Try the WT:BP - I try to avoid going there as discussions take too long!

(2) We have, or should have, have polytonic words in Greek (modern) - I am an offender who contributed towards their absence. Although we have words labelled as "Katharevousa" they are probably Modern "derived from Katharevousa".

— Saltmarsh. 06:06, 8 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

sarri to @Saltmarsh: Dear Mentor! thank you for your patience -again- with me. Of course, you are right in everything, and present things correctly. Ok I'll make a summary, its too long.

---WAW "Preferences/Gadgets/User interface gadgets/ enable tabbed" I would never have found it myself. Thank you. They should put this option somewere in the entries. I never touched Preferences, they are too complicated. Hmmm they list at bu every irrelevant languages under English, They are just giving a different layout of the page. They must TAB relevant languages-categories, and the rest, as they were normally, with the relevant tabbed. Cat:EngLang, Cat:OldEngLang, etc are under Cat:WestGermLanguages. Shouldn't there be a Wiktionary section-category 'Cat:English languagesssss' Don't bother to answer. It's just a rhetoric suggestion, probably impossible to be done.

---about (2) why not: Heading: Other scripts: /'Alternative Versions' is another thing/ Text: polytonic script Katharevousa: thewordNoLinkbutAnchored, Ancient Greek: wordLinked. Capital letters: WORDNOLINK nocasesensitiveforsearch. So, search ἑλληνικός (= ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΟΣ) will direct to a disambiguation page (as in Wikipedia) with ἑλληνικός and ελληνικός. Or for bake: Heading: In Other English Languages: blabla. (Don't bother to answer :) I know, it is impossible.)

---Do you have the Babiniotis.1998 dict? I have the 1998a and the 1998b. I do not need both, I could send you the 1998b (there was some silly legal matter for a lemma, and they had to publish again). Good night mentor! sarri.greek (talk) 05:13, 9 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

* (2) Introducing new headings is difficult (I mean long involved discussions and votes). However there are/should be links between ἑλληνικός and ελληνικός. Firstly at the top of each page will be a see also link (ελληνικός links to Ἑλληνικός and vice versa, and then to ἑλληνικός when it has been created). Also, where there are etymological connections, ἑλληνικός will/should have a ====Descendants==== heading link and the reverse of an ===Etymology=== section in ελληνικός. I hope that these go some way to answer the point.
* Other languages have "diglossic" problems: Norwegian (see hund and ku) has I think three currently spoken forms.
* Thanks for the offer - my Babiniotis is 2008.— Saltmarsh. 06:42, 9 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

ok! @Saltmarsh: yes, again you are right. And I have shortened the article into a note, as it should be from the beginning. I don't want to take up your time. You are doing far more serious things, in Wiktionary :) Do you have the Christidis book? It's very good. I could you send you that one. sarri.greek (talk) 07:05, 9 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

• Πλουτ.Βίοι_Talk

Merci, Sarri.greek, de votre petit mot. Un lien de remplacement a été fourni par un contributeur anonyme, était-ce vous ? Merci encore. --Zyephyrus (talk) 23:19, 24 October 2017 (UTC)Reply

oui, c'est moi, sarri.grecque! j'ai cherché archive.org pour Vol.3 mais, rien... Seulelment la collection '6 Lives' traduit par Dreyden: Nicias et ONLY eng. pas de grec.anc. https://archive.org/details/plutarchsnicias00plutgoog Pas de Pericles I'm afraid. Merci, Zef, votre links saved me a lot of time! sarri.greek (talk) 23:36, 24 October 2017 (UTC)Reply

• Appendix:GlossaryAppGlossaryTlk
• -- > Moving this, from χειμάρρους discussion: @Sarri.greek: As to the terms συναίρεσις (synaíresis) and συντεμημένο (syntemiméno), συναίρεσις (synaíresis) is probably "contraction" (though we in English use synaeresis in a more restrictive sense), but I don't know what συντεμημένο (syntemiméno) is. I might be able to tell you if you give me an example. — Eru·tuon 20:56, 4 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

from sarri to @Erutuon:: Yes I have seen in en.wikt the terms contraction and for συντετμημένο: shortened (which avoids confusion with 'abbreviated-abbreviations'). Perhaps we should Request a list of all the terms officially used in en.wikt, el.wikt, etc. Thank you, πολύτροπε Eru! sarri.greek (talk) 01:11, 5 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

2017.07.08 by Saltmarsh: Welcome to Wiktionary

You also asked if help was available with editing - any of the Wiktionary editors will willingly give advice with editing. I don't read my email regularly and I'm usually editing on Wiktionary more frequently - so the best place to ask me is on my talk page (where you first raised your point).

• You could start by creating a "sandbox" ie a page where you can try things out. Click on User:Sarri.greek/Sandbox (clicking on a red link gives you an opportunity to create that page). You can do what you like in this space without creating problems. You could start with creating a page for an adverb - perhaps the simplest lemma page.
  • Click on "edit" for an existing adverb and look at how it's formatted
  • Copy the text to your sandbox, and then change the relevant bits to give your new word.
  • When your happy with the way it looks, and if it hasn't already been created, you could add it by searching for it and then clicking "create it".

Some pages you might find helpful:

• Help:Contents, Help:Index
• Wiktionary:About Greek This page is sadly out of date
• Wiktionary:About Greek/Draft new About Greek probably better - but incomplete!
• Category:Greek model pages for some examples of formatting
• Wiktionary:Community Portal for some link to pages where advice can be requested

And remember you can always "edit" an existing page of any sort — look at how its done — and then exit using "cancel", leaving it unchanged. — Saltmarsh. 06:16, 8 July 2017 (UTC)Reply

ADDED:2017.11. by Equinox as extra link-source:

Hello, welcome to Wiktionary, and thank you for your contributions so far.

If you are unfamiliar with wiki-editing, take a look at Help:How to edit a page. It is a concise list of technical guidelines to the wiki format we use here: how to, for example, make text boldfaced or create hyperlinks. Feel free to practice in the sandbox. If you would like a slower introduction we have a short tutorial.

These links may help you familiarize yourself with Wiktionary:

• Entry layout (EL) is a detailed policy on Wiktionary's page formatting; all entries must conform to it. The easiest way to start off is to copy the contents of an existing same-language entry, and then adapt it to fit the entry you are creating.
• Check out Language considerations to find out more about how to edit for a particular language.
• Our Criteria for Inclusion (CFI) defines exactly which words can be added to Wiktionary; the most important part is that Wiktionary only accepts words that have been in somewhat widespread use over the course of at least a year, and citations that demonstrate usage can be asked for when there is doubt.
• If you already have some experience with editing our sister project Wikipedia, then you may find our guide for Wikipedia users useful.
• If you have any questions, bring them to Wiktionary:Information desk or ask me on my talk page.
• Whenever commenting on any discussion page, please sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~) which automatically produces your username and timestamp.
• You are encouraged to add a BabelBox to your userpage to indicate your self-assessed knowledge of languages.

Enjoy your stay at Wiktionary!

I created a page for me https://en.wiktionary.orghttps://dictious.com/en/User:Sarri.greek/lab I think I have opened by accident a new username? Ohh.. Need to erase? Help! sarri.greek (talk) 06:36, 25 October 2017 (UTC)Reply

Γεια σας. Μην ανησυχείτε· it's not a new username. You've correctly used a slash, so it's automatically recognised as one of your subpages. Also, I'd suggest using the internal way of linking: ]. It will be much cleaner.

• ] > User:Sarri.greek/lab
• ] > torrent, etc.
• For linking to other wiktionaries you simply have to add the language code (with the ":" before it): ] > el:χείμαρρος; ] > fr:antivol

Another thing: if you want to make sure that a user gets your message, you can use {{ping}}, which works like this: {{ping|Username}}. So {{ping|Barytonesis}} > @Barytonesis.

Last thing: for clean bullet lists, you can use "*". --Barytonesis (talk) 09:42, 25 October 2017 (UTC)Reply

ahhhh thankkkk you, for all extra info. I promise i'll practice! sarri.greek (talk) 23:56, 25 October 2017 (UTC)Reply

Hello. I see you're asking a lot of questions on your userpage; is it for you only, or do you want people to answer them? --Barytonesis (talk) 19:52, 1 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

from sarri: :) Bary! you are 'οφθαλμός ος τα πάνθ' ορά' (an eye that watches everything). Thank you, I will first try to find out things for myself, and if not, then, i shall bother others, in the rooms. One thing though: i visit other lang-wiktionaries, and i get warm welcomes... i got one in arabic. Must i reply? sarri.greek (talk) 20:00, 1 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

Nah, often the welcome is an automatically generated welcome message. I see nobody sent you one here, and you're asking about formatting etc., so I will include it below. Equinox ◑ 20:21, 1 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

from sarri to Equinox: Thank you. Saltmarsh & Barytonensis have been helping me a lot. Your links below are useful. I am currently reading all that, and I need a month or two months to learn things in here. The help pages are not so great for people like me (who know only a bit of htm writing). If it's any use to the supervisors of this site, I can write a 'impressions of a newcomer' including what helped me and what bothered me. But I need more than a month.

Your "new user feedback" will be an interesting read, if you find time to write it. Our help pages are limited because Wiktionary is a much smaller project than Wikipedia and we have fewer users. We also have more difficult formatting, because our entries use a complicated structure, while Wikipedia's articles are more like essays. Equinox ◑ 20:53, 1 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

You have been making lots and lots of edits to your userspace pages, and very little to actual entries. We admins have to manually mark every edit of yours as being okay, which is fine when it's actual content, but it is getting rather tiring to do so for endless edits to long "lab" pages. Please try to restrict your activity to what is actually useful for Wiktionary, and combine many edits in one by using the Preview feature. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 16:34, 21 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

Ohhh dear! @Metaknowledge:. I have been marking them as non-important. I am trying to make a list of the commands. HELP is confusing me, I cannot find Template:xxx in the search box. I can only do the inflectional-types-pages. I don't think I can do anything else. But of course, I will stop. Sorry, didn't know I burdened you. sarri.greek (talk) 16:48, 21 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

For @Erutuon: (who encouraged me to write this feedback), JohnC5, and the Ancient Greek Team: I have been reading your lemmata, modules and discussions with awe and great admiration. You are pursuing refined aspects of your discipline. Dialects, rare occurances etc. The general public -especially after the 1960s- know less and less about classic languages. So, your role here is crucial. Most of your visitors arrive at your pages through the etymon of words in other languages. In Greece, school students look up your inflection tables. My notes are for trivial matters. My gre.anc. is just what i learned at school, so, i can describe my impressions as an average user of wiktionary, in my case, an average hellenophone.
Why do i like your work?

• Because Liddell-Scott is too complicated, has no inflection tables, it is made for philologists. (Has no abbreviations for sg f p xxx... and it takes me a long time to find out what century the writer Xxx.X.XXX is.)
• your pages have it all-in-one: Etymo, IPA, tables, sources.

'All' but which 'all':

• When i logged in, and realized that non-changeable elements were automatic, I confess, i panicked. We neeed to TRUST the tiniest info. (Guaranteed from the sources. Info can not override the sources.)

Things i would like:

• Problem with not-very-ancient words. I would start with a lang-determiner: e.g. Hellenistic Koine. I need to know at what historical time the word appears. (By the way, 'Koine' alone, i dont know how many people know the term.)

  There is a code for "Koine Greek", grc-koi, that can be used in templates such as {{derived}}, {{inherited}}, {{borrowed}}, {{cognate}}, {{noncognate}}, {{descendant}}. Look in Module:etymology_languages/data for other Greek dialect codes that can be used in those templates. They can't be used in other etymology or linking templates, such as {{affix}}, or {{l}} or {{m}}, however. — Eru·tuon 01:44, 1 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

Yes @Erutuon:, thank you, but people like me cannot do etymologies. I am not an expert. I cannot take such a responsibility. Unless I am to COPY info from some Dict designated by you. But I can proofread; check perseus and if I see New Testament, Lucian, Hippoc, etc. I will leave messages.

• As a greek, I would love to see a second line at the etymo for the future of the word, not just its past: What happened to it? Did it survive in Modern Greek. (is Etymology only a study of the past?. Of course, non hellenophones would not be interested.) e.g.

  lemma

  < xxx + xxx < PIE xxx

  > Byzantine xxx > Kath xxx > Mod xxx. Also see Descendants.

  • This is not the intent of this section. That is the purpose of the Descendants heading. —*i̯óh₁nC 11:02, 1 December 2017 (UTC)Reply
    • Yes @JohnC5:. As a non-anglophone user, I had no idea that greek would be in there. as in βούτυρον. Never mind. Was just a thought.

• Hellenistic words do not have a 5th century Attic pronunciation. A parameter can by added. (I can do all this repetitive work for you if you wish.)

  There is a parameter to determine at which period transcriptions will start. See Template:grc-IPA/documentation § Parameters. You can certainly add period parameters; it would be appreciated. We only added the feature recently and haven't had time to make use of it. — Eru·tuon 20:37, 29 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

OK @Erutuon: I'll start checking words at Cat.AncGreLemm If perseus says Hellenistic I ll add koi1. If I am doubtful I ll leave a message at lemma's Talk. sarri.greek (talk) 21:04, 29 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

Hmm, it might be better to create a thread in Module:grc-pronunciation with a list of words that you have doubts about. We will not necessarily notice your messages on the talk pages of the entries. — Eru·tuon 01:50, 1 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

@Erutuon: It s not just greek. Visitors will not know Module pages. If they see mistake, the put note at Talk page. Perhaps put an auto alert in there.

• Labels of phases - links to wikipedia: shouldn't they correspond? I would prefer: 5th BCE Attic. 1st BCE Koine. 4th CE Koine 10th CE Byzantine 15th CE Byzantine. (The terms Egyptian and Constantinopoletan may be δόκιμοι for an expert, but confused me. I thought it meant Coptic, and some αττικίζουσα from Const.). Also, I would prefer BCE and CE.

  I think there is a way to format BC and AD so that they can be automatically changed to BCE and CE by JavaScript depending on a setting in Preferences. I will look into that. — Eru·tuon 20:37, 29 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

  Actually, the other way around: BCE or CE to BC or AD. The gadget is found in Wiktionary:Per-browser_preferences. — Eru·tuon 20:48, 29 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

Yes, thank you @Erutuon:, I though I saw shomewhere that BCE CE is the standard. sarri.greek (talk) 21:04, 29 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

Erutuon is being a bit unclear; the standard here is to use the templates {{BCE}} and {{CE}}, which add a bit of formatting and allow people to configure their own preferences. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 21:18, 29 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

@Metaknowledge: Thanks; I had forgotten about those templates, I was simply thinking of the labels used in Module:zh-usex/data. — Eru·tuon 22:07, 29 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

• I would like the word 'reconstructed' somewhere. IPA^key reconstructed: ....
  • That's not a question for just Ancient Greek. We tend not to mark pronunciations for dead languages as "reconstructed". This would have to be brought up on a wider scale. —*i̯óh₁nC 11:02, 1 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

• You have syllabication, which is great. It is weird that wiktionary puts hyphenation under pronunciation. Syllabication, i understand, is for phoneticians, hyphenation, which is a grammatical and typographic gadget, should be somewhere else? (Users need it for writing their texts. Well, in modern greek it is useful.)
  • Regardless of where the hyphenation should go (this again is not the concern of only AG), hyphenation is a modern editorial convention. We do not and should not provide them at all for AG as there is no such tradition. —*i̯óh₁nC 11:02, 1 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

• Quotations are in the sources, no need here. But would be nice to choose the MOST famous one, a brief one, as EXAMPLE. The one that students of gre. lang or history would encounter.

• titlebar: We really need '(Attic)' at all tables? Isn't it standard and presented in all grammar books? The footnote does not suffice? Koine or middletime words are inflected in the same pattern. If a table is for a specific dialect, or an exception, then fine, I would like its name at the titlebar as in your ἡμεῖς, μνημεῖον tables!
  • Only recently we added the "(Attic)" to the default tables, the tables generated when a dialect (|dial=) is not given. (Also until recently, contracted nouns like πάθος showed both contracted and uncontracted forms, without any indication of which dialect they belong to. The uncontracted forms were, I think, the hypothetical forms that would have yielded the Attic forms, meaning that some of the uncontracted forms, like *ἀλήθεε, were probably not attested in any dialect.) I have been in favor of explicitly saying in which dialect a word or inflected form is used, even though most readers of Wiktionary will only be interested in Attic.
  • I am uncertain: on the one hand, most people learn Attic (or Koine, which is pretty much identical) and will expect an unmarked table to be Attic; on the other, it is potentially misleading not to indicate at all which dialect the forms come from, when there are so many dialects, and someone might assume, incorrectly, that, because no dialect is indicated, the table somehow includes the forms of dialects, and that the same forms will be seen in Herodotus, Homer, or Pindar. So I think the dialect should be explicitly indicated somewhere in the declension table: if not in the title, then in the notes. That way there is no room for confusion. It might also be helpful to have a page that lists the dialects, the writers who use them, and the regions and time periods in which the dialects used or appeared in inscriptions. — Eru·tuon 22:33, 16 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

Ok @Erutuon: you persuaded me, Attic at titlebar. I know how much you love your ionic etas and your doric alphas. And you love uncontracted types, as one loves Bach on the clavichord, rather than on a Steinway. But if sincere, shouldn't the etymology state: Attic, also Koine? and mediaeval? and katharevousa?. I have seen in tables, uncontracted+contructed together, or, root+ending=grammatical type (χαρίεντ-ς=χαρίεις) not as presentation of dialects, but as an explanation of the production from the root. The root. I need the root. As for πάθος, i knew gen. πάθους@perseus and i dont' find it in the table. I would image titlabar:

πάθος , -εος/-ους. Third Decl. Attic. root: πάθεσ-. And, then 2 tables: Uncontracted example. Contracted in Attic, or 1 table with both, what ever. If you like, add tables for dialects, or add notes for some dialectal types. I like that. But don't worry too much. Historical Grammars are for you, happy few. For the curious reader there's always Liddell-Scott for further exploring. In the future, wiktionary will probably have lemmata for EVERY written word.

Your idea of page with authors+dialect+century is excellent. You cannot image how stupid i feel in Lidd-Sc when i try to find out what century is an abbreviated author in: Koine? late hellenistic? early Byz? I have to go to wikipedia, check dates. Takes me hours. Already Sunday here, sarri.greek (talk) 00:01, 17 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

When Koine and Byzantine have the same forms as Attic, I think all three dialects should be mentioned in the title of the declension table (if that's what you're getting at). It would be dumb to have three different tables for Attic, Koine, and Byzantine if the forms are identical. The module does not allow this yet.

I know that Koine almost always has the same endings as Attic, but I don't know much about Medieval (Byzantine). (There are words that Koine has different forms of – γλῶττα, γλῶσσα; λεώς, λᾱός, but that should not be a problem.)

At the moment, the module doesn't specify any non-default forms for Koine or Byzantine, so I have to figure out if that leads to any forms being incorrect or incomplete. — Eru·tuon 01:44, 20 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

• titlebar: catch-word for infl. model: I like them for mnemonic reasons. e.g. very common characteristic words. If possible, same catchword for Anc and Modern. Nice to juxtapose.
• titlebar: First Decl of xxxx. (It has a second one too??). Perhaps:

  xxxxx, -xx. Root xxxx-. First Decl. as in 'catchword' (Dialect if necessary).

  no need for transcription at titlebar, it is in the table. takes too much space

• ROOTS, i would love to see the roots at top of tables. Strong and weak. With longa/brevis.
• adj: the LINE: Derived Forms. Weird. First box has adverb. Second box has compar. but not of the adverb. And the comp/super are not inflected anyway. I would rather NOT have this line at all in this table. Why not a separate placing in the page, immediately visible to the user: adj. degrees, and link to the adverb.
  • The comparative and superlative adjectives are inflected? I can't tell what your argument is here? —*i̯óh₁nC 11:02, 1 December 2017 (UTC)Reply
    • E.g. καλός καλώς (first box) and then καλλίων and then κάλλιστος. I just don't love the placing. I cant find infl for comp/sup The degr. of adv. ? κάλλιον κάλλιστα? Im just saying idont love the look. That's all. sarri.greek (talk) 16:10, 1 December 2017 (UTC)Reply
• ATTESTATION: If a table includes many words that are more a grammatical exercise rather than real, attested words, maybe you could use () or grey colour or something? that could be added after the automatic table is done? (The non-existant words should not be lemmatized) (LSJ is claimed as source, and if @perseus does not give it, how can it be there? This is violation of source. In my old days, with NO computers, we had to consult all these heavy volumes... Today, it is done instantly. I always check the infl.types, and i keep a note of FOUND/NOT FOUND.)
  • Lexicographic practice in Latin and Greek has always been to lemmatize the nominative singular if predictable, even if unattested. I would be nice to mark attestation somehow, but that might be beyond the immediate scope of this project. —*i̯óh₁nC 11:02, 1 December 2017 (UTC)Reply
    • Yes of course you are right. There is always the source LiddScott if someone wants to check. sarri.greek (talk) 16:10, 1 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

• longae/breves: some tables have them, others do not. What's the policy? If i can see the root with these diacritics, i don't need them, ίνα μη καταχαράσσωνται οι πίνακες.

  It was decided a while ago that we would mark all ambiguous vowels, rather than only marking long vowels and leaving short vowels unmarked, or only marking length when there is no other accent on the vowel. (It's fine to leave ambiguous vowels unmarked if you don't know the length, or you just don't want to bother with it.) That way, macron means long, breve means short, and no length mark means "unknown". For the explanation of the policy, see Wiktionary:About Ancient Greek § Diacritics and accentuation. However, there are still a lot of unmarked ambiguous vowels.

  Unfortunately, there aren't many fonts that display, for instance, breve and smooth breathing and acute on a single letter (ᾰ̓́νθρωπος) correctly. Usually the acute is placed above the breathing, which looks stupid. Evidently most font makers aren't aware that this combination of diacritics is used, so they do not program them into the correct positions (or whatever it is that font makers do to make diacritics display well). There is one, New Athena Unicode, described in Wiktionary:About Ancient Greek § Fonts and display. It's the first font listed for "polytonic" in MediaWiki:Common.css, so it will be used if you have it. (It's still not perfect. The diacritics are kind of close together.)

  To enter combinations of diacritics (or to add macrons or breves), you can use {{chars}}. — Eru·tuon 01:15, 1 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

• (ν) at end of types, often breaks from line. Needs a no-break gadget.
• FONT SIZE problem, brevis/longa+accent: to me, and old people in general, very difficult to see, even at 150%. I know you cannot change fonts now. Still. Perhaps if letters were spaced a little wider they could be clearer.
• FONTS for syllabaries, old scripts, are little squares at my computer. I would like an extra image-representation.
  • You can download fonts for these. It would be complicated to add image representations for Unicode characters into our current system of linking between entries. For Linear B, if that is what you are thinking of, there is a page of fonts. There are also lists of fonts for many scripts in MediaWiki:Common.css. You can search for the script that is displaying as boxes and find fonts for that script. If you download one of the fonts in the list, it will automatically be used throughout Wiktionary (except in the mobile version of the site). To find scripts used by a particular language, you can go to the language's category page and look at the table of information: for instance, Category:Ancient Greek language. — Eru·tuon 01:15, 1 December 2017 (UTC)Reply
• LARGE crowded TABLES (as in verbs): when i save them at my computer, I add grey BORDERS to help my eyes fix at each box. (I wish this table@pyli had borders too.)
• DUAL ooωω how i hate dual :) I know, good grammars present it between sing and pl. But i neeed to see sing-pl side by side. By the way: are all duals attested?
  • Definitely not. The dual was moribund even in Homeric Greek. —*i̯óh₁nC 11:02, 1 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

• when i type e.g. μνημείο, or even μνημείον (i dont have poly fonts at my computer), i do NOT get your μνημεῖον. Could you do your magic tricks and force search engines to include you?
  • We have discussed before but not implemented SEO (Search Engine Optimization). —*i̯óh₁nC 11:02, 1 December 2017 (UTC)Reply
    • This is a slightly different problem than the MediaWiki SEO addressed earlier. A collapsed table such as Informal Typographical Variants, perhaps under Alternative Forms, would address both. I only half-support such clutter, but it may increases traffic and contribution volume. Inflected typographical variants would likely require non-lemma pages. Isomorphyc (talk) 15:44, 1 December 2017 (UTC)Reply
      • @Isomorphyc: I would definitely oppose such an option, I think. —*i̯óh₁nC 12:51, 2 December 2017 (UTC)Reply
  • The solution in this case is to add the Modern Greek descendant to the entry. μνημείο was added to the descendants list of μνημεῖον, and now μνημεῖον shows up if you search Wiktionary μνημείο.

Would you like me to make pages for inflectional types? It's the only thing i can do confidently. If you provide a standard style for all declinabilia, I can copy paste (usually i visit gre.mod. words lacking their ancient-script-word and vice vesa).
P.S. and what a pity; all this work cannot be transferred horizontally to other wiktionaries?
σφῷν ὀφθαλμοῖν μόνον, sarri.greek (talk) 19:30, 29 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

Thanks @Erutuon: You are so fast... sarri.greek (talk) 20:43, 29 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

Hi - thanks for taking on some work. When there are more than one etymologies the subsequent headings - noun/declension/etc each need to be raised by one level (ie noun 3>4, declension 4>5, related 4>5, and so on. — Saltmarsh. 19:24, 3 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

Hey, @Saltmarsh:, I did do it, ατ πυρά, I think. At lease when I wrote them at Notepad. Then I erased it, then I made changes, and then I copied again but forgot to re-re do. OK thanks. I assure you I understand this :) Thank you sarri.greek (talk) 01:08, 4 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

Γεια — you asked whether some "Alternative forms" were mislabelled. Would you like to point me at some examples. Should they (for example) be "Synonyms", or something else? — Saltmarsh. 12:50, 9 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

Probably, dear @Saltmarsh:, it is because i'm not an anglophone. My understanding of the english word alternative was only partial. In my mind alternative was the same as interchangeable. But I can see that alternative is broader. Still. I feel readers must be warned about the 'alternative' uses of a word being rare, or non-standard. Probably a label? qualifier? would clear up things. Yes, i would rather list them under synonyms. And in infl.tables a parenthesis?

• I'll intersperse my answers - and not all at once. Yes, I think people looking up egg, for example, should know if there is a difference between αυγό and αβγό (using {{qualifier}}: literary/colloquial/derogatory, rare/common, etc — a native's knowledge is invaluable here). μπίρα/μπύρα and αδελφός/αδερφός are similar examples, but not δουλεία/δουλειά or are they? — Saltmarsh. 06:50, 11 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

--alternative words (their meaning): non-identical senses. e.g. broader sense. of plural: τα άλευρα, and rare sing άλευρο not interchangeable to αλεύρι (cf. my notes). Or, socio-nuances: We cannot say 'This γέρος needs assistance' in front of the old man. It is impolite. We will say 'this 'ηλικιωμένος κύριος' needs assistance'. And certainly not γριά. And παλιός is not for people (compare fre. ancien, vieux)

• I've ammended the γερός/παλιός entries, you might like to amend if necessary.
• With regards to άλευρο and αλεύρι: both my little λεξικό τσέπης and Μπαμπινιώτη have "άλευρο βλ. αλεύρι" - just that - Μπάμπι. doesn't mention "τα άλευρα", from what you say I presume you say that it means "flours" (in general — the products of milling) have I understood you correctly ? Google also shows me pictures of "batter" (flour/water + posibly egg/milk) is that another meaning? And what about "η αλευριά" = batter? — Saltmarsh. 06:50, 11 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

--alternative forms/gramm.types in tables: e.g. τρώω has a very 'anarchic' behaviour. τρώγω ancient, lends SOME of its grammatical types to modern greek. Not all. (DSMG, but i need to check further). Imperat.΄τρώγε!' is standard,'εσύ τρώγεις' i have never heard, 'τρώγω' i have heard, but rarely. So the conjugation table cannot include all the τρώγ- types. The evasive schoolbook says it is 'idiocliton' (i.e. has a mind of its own). Like the doctors, who say 'you have an 'idiopathy', meaning 'I dont now what s wrong with you'.

As i go through your precious model pages (I'm still at A from αγγούρι-κορίτσι) I'll keep some notes. Have a nice weekend:) sarri.greek (talk) 00:45, 10 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

Thank you @Saltmarsh: I read all your comments. Need to study each lemma. I got some notes on αβγό. What I suggested at γέρος & παλιός , (thanks for your thanks) you may use ad libitum. I need to check one by one μπύρα (this is a transcr-offoreignword matter, αδελφός (general rule: when using an ancient form, is is always more official, posh, and the demotic type is more colloquial). άλευρα @DSMG(ux: Maria, bring me the αλεύρι, I want to make a cake; all the brands of the Greek άλευρα-industry are very good, they make really fine αλεύρια.) I don't cook much, so I don't know αλευριά pronounced with diphthong , but I know the which is like μουσταλευριά. Δουλειά (job) -εργασία (job) δουλεία (slavery) I'll check and send you notes. sarri.greek (talk) 06:19, 12 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

Thanks — my translation of the note in αβγό would have have been slow (if I had done it) and I am always worried that I have not understood nuances in any technical discussion. I will put a note with αβγό — please feel free (as you must always be) to amend (a wiki-principle). — Saltmarsh. 07:14, 12 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

Stop being modest. Well, MY problem is, that I am not a native eng-speaker, so I never publish any English text. It takes me long to transl. the u.xamples for instance. And as you see, I never make a defin/trans for any word, even translate DSMG examples. I always feel I could be wrong, or be betrayed as non-anglphn. So... you add eng nuances, i'll add the greek, bingo! sarri.greek (talk) 07:32, 12 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

Given the liability (or probability) that non-existent or erroneous forms may be displayed in the conjugation tables I am revisiting the subject. The current templates are overcomplicated - I wrote them, but it would take almost as long to amend them as to start again, and they are not easy to use. I would seek to start again with simpler tables displaying a greatly reduced number of forms.

• Before anything else in considered, which one-word forms should be omitted? It is noticeable that the Βικιλεξικό (see el:δίνω) only displays a second form for the imperfect and aorist tenses - would this be sensible? Using the National Greek Thesaurus statistics I show some frequencies (temporarily) at User:Saltmarsh/Sandbox. — Saltmarsh. 07:24, 14 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

Τιτάνιο έργο! @Saltmarsh: Tables in grammars have so many comments under them. How can you squeeze these notes in a table? Βικιλεξικό is economical. I always take a look. But i know you wish to cover all possible types, thouroughly. ---Your survey at ΕΘΕΓ is great (I didnt know it; thank you), but you should not exhaust yourself. The reason why you are worried about rare types is because someone might be looking them up. ---I would check Holton & your well informed eng. grammars, but i would follow what the average greek consults when in doubt: the official schoolbook #check λύω and triantabyllidis tables. I can send you the comments under the verb λύνω at the schoolbook mot à mot; here are some points:

1. The addition of ε ending: (at -ουν -ουνε -αν -ανε) is given as parenthesis in both schoolbook & at Triantafyllidis tables. -ουν(ε) -αν(ε) Comment schoolbook: The first type is frequently used in written λόγος, mainly in 'conforming to type' or neutral style. The second is very frequent in spoken λόγος and in children's literature. It's no big deal. I use both. I noticed that the wikt.ancient greek tables use a parenthesis for euphonic (ν) e.g. λύουσι(ν).

2. on the αύξηση έ of past tenses: with or without: έλυναν / λύναν(ε), έλυσαν / λύσαν(ε). Comment.schoolbook: WITH έ frequently used in written λόγος, mainly in 'conforming to type' or neutral style. The second is very frequent in spoken λόγος and in children's literature. There could be a little note ^colloquial or something like that.

3. on the -ουμε / -ομε plurals: these are really different. Comment schoolbook: very rare in speech, and more by speakers from southern Greece. Trianaf.tables put parenthesis -at the wrong place, i think-: κλειδώνο(υ)με when they should: κλειδών-ουμε(-ομε). My note: any type resembling/copying the corresponding ancient type is either posh or ironic. There could be a note ^^rare. Or you can put the type in {λύνομε}. Or ...aaa i see now your πολύς with nice little notes.

4. The other voice? λύνω+λύνομαι, γράφω γράφομαι... Usually they are together in the same table.

5. For template of simplest verb, i would not choose a verb which belongs at the comments section e.g. with root ending in consonants that behave in a special way e.g. γράφ-σ-ω > γράψω. γραφ-μένος > γραμμένος. Or δίνω which has flactuating-roots, and comes from δίδωμι complicating things. I like e.g. λύνω: short, smooth, no suprises. (λύν-σ-ω=λύσω easier)

6. I love your vertical tables, it's what's we are mostly used to. But then, the corresponing ancient table is horizontal.. Doesn't matter what your choose.

P.S. I got some αδελφός notes and questions about -πουλος, i am not sure where to send them? (I sent a message). Oh Salt! making all these tables, is too hard. If there's anything i can do for you... Like, reading word-lists for each table. Good night. sarri.greek (talk) 21:39, 16 December 2017 (UTC) Just remembered: Imperatives are also done periphrastically λύσε = να λύσεις etc. And.. is the negating μη θεωρήσετε! μή λύσεις! inluced in your eng.grammars. sarri.greek (talk) 21:48, 16 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

Hi, a quick response to some of your points above (leaving aside possible comments about particular forms until later):

1, 2. I have put some ideas at User:Saltmarsh/Sandbox - leaving out the dot (with "tooltip" link to transliteration). Transliteration is liked wherever possible - but in tables they cause problems, and I don't thin that "tooltips" work with tablets and phones. I think T3 is my favoured alternative, but i have no fixed ideas.

Rare forms could be omitted from the table but still exist in the dictionary as "Alternative forms"

3. Holten et al have "-ομε" ... sometimes found in formal use and in some regional Greek"

4. Passive forms where omitted from the original tables until I was committed to the existing ones. They can be included in the "new" ones.

An incomplete answer - more to follow if necessary. — Saltmarsh. 19:22, 18 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

Yes @Saltmarsh: vertical is nice. Your colours are very helpful to the eye. __Rare types yes in table, exotic no. (λύομε=rare. exotic:λυνόσαντε=my father's village in the 1930s) __T3, nice but: cannot have all of a sudden stem+suffix (Some tables do it columnary for all types). __You have to decide: how do i signal rares&formals? how do i signal optionals? The question will reappear in all kinds of tables.

1) standard+(rare)^note standard(optional)^note λύουμε (λύομε)¹ έλυναν λύναν(ε)²

Or 2) standard+rare^note standard(opt)^note λύουμε λύομε². έλυναν λύναν(ε)². note1: rare. note2: (optional).

The (ε) is quasi euphonic to λύναν. Cannot have sequence T1/T2 έλυναν λύνανε λύναν. The only problem with the small (ε) parenthesis, is that it sometimes breaks off the line. I cannot find non-breaking(). I hope these magic templates are amenable is the word? to future tiny differentiations. Notes in this anarchic microcosmos are unavoidable. __As for transliteration for mod.greek, i hate it. When i visited arabic, Turkish, unknown to me, i thought it was the pronunciation. Translit is useless if i cannot say the word. __Don't read the notes I've sent you yet. You have too much να λύσετε, dear Salt. Good night sarri.greek (talk) 02:52, 19 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

New T2 might fulfil. Some notes can always be put on the forms entry in Wikt - rather than in the table. — Saltmarsh. 07:14, 19 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

Replaced by newer T1, now with passive forms. Any comments on the general layout will be gratefully received. Aside from typos, are there any forms which have no business being there? Thank you — Saltmarsh. 16:49, 20 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

It is GREAT @Saltmarsh:. I love it. Ι know you also add at dependent (+να/μη/θα). And, also there is the λυμένο (as in έχω λυμένο), not λυνμένο. The style is great. sarri.greek (talk) 18:01, 20 December 2017 (UTC)Reply