User talk:ZxxZxxZ/Archive 2

Hey there ZxxZxxZ. Would you mind adding some babel userboxes to your userpage so we know what languages you are proficient in? Thanks, Razorflame 16:00, 18 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi, added. --Z 10:29, 19 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Thank you! I will change my vote from Abstain to Support now on your RfA :) Razorflame 22:19, 19 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

The function template_l_xform currently doesn't have any information about its usage. What does it do, and what is it intended for? I noticed it's used on inflection tables and apparently it adds links to the word in the same way that language_link does. So can they be merged? Also, as a sidenote, I tried to copy the code for "term" from your user page to the main module, and I made a few adjustments as well. I hope I did it right. —CodeCat 21:07, 20 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

It was added by Kephir and has been used in {{t-SOP}}. Currently, its only unique feature is that it can wikilink words of the given text separately (based on white spaces, etc.): {{t-SOP|el|οικιακή οικονομία}} > οικιακή οικονομία; but I don't think it's a good idea as not every word should be wikilinked, and sometimes we want to link to a title which contains white spaces (say, a phrase or a compound verb), so why not simply use the same method in other linking templates: {{t|el|] ]}}, {{head|en|verb|head=to ]}}, and the text will be handled by language_link. --Z 22:05, 20 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

I just did that. But that function is being used in other templates too, like {{pl-decl-noun/wlink}}. Does it actually make sense to use it there? —CodeCat 22:30, 20 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

I replaced it with Template:l. --Z 22:45, 20 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

{{t-SOP}} is nominated for deletion now, because it's redundant to the other translation templates that now also support links. Can I safely add error("This function is deprecated") to template_l_xform once {{t-SOP}} is no longer used anywhere? —CodeCat 22:55, 20 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Yes. --Z 23:03, 20 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Any objection to changing the language header to just "Aramaic"? DTLHS (talk) 22:41, 20 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

No, let's change it. --Z 22:48, 20 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

What do you think is the best way to fix that? Turn the parameter back into lang? Or supply both lang and langinfo, but with langinfo allowed to be nil? —CodeCat 01:22, 21 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

What about adding a field for language code to langinfo? --Z 01:28, 21 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

That can work too, but making langinfo an optional parameter may be more convenient? —CodeCat 01:30, 21 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hmm I don't like having both lang and langinfo there. I think we should make it language-code-based, or add language code to langinfo. --Z 01:40, 21 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

This probably interests you... —CodeCat 01:49, 24 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Welcome to sysophood. Please add an entry at Wiktionary:Administrators.

May I ask that you always have a second session open on Recent Changes whenever you are editing Wiktionary. You may mark good edits as "patrolled", revert vandalism and stupidity by either deleting new entries or by using the "rollback" function. You may block vandals at your own discretion.

Note: As there are times when no sysop is active, it would be useful if you start your patrolling from the time you last left the system. Cheers. SemperBlotto (talk) 12:54, 25 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Welcome to the team. — Ungoliant ^(Falai) 13:01, 25 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Thanks. --Z 14:48, 25 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Don't patrol; it's a waste of time. — — 20:16, 25 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Says the sysop that's almost completely inactive. Razorflame 20:20, 25 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

I have a life outside of the internet. Wiktionary's "no-bosses and everybody gets a say" format is not conducive to the production of a worthy product. Nothing is planned sufficiently and everything changes after a month or a year, anyway, so really wiktionary is a fun hobby that can be helpful in studying languages, but it will never be Langenscheidt or Routledge. You yourself have made a lot of piss poor edits, so I don't know why you would insert your nose in this particular area. — — 14:01, 30 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

I've undone your edit because, while putting alternative forms up the top is the norm for normally-scripted languages, we don't actually do it that way in Egyptian (cf. Wiktionary:About Egyptian). The reason for this is that most words will have many alternative hieroglyphic spellings that usually represent the same transliteration - this is par for the course in Egyptian, and so we just list them in a table under Usage notes. This is 'curret consensus', but if you think that it should be changed, you're welcome to bring it up in the BP - after all, 'current consensus' in Egyptian is just User:Furius and I =P. Cheers. Hyarmendacil (talk) 06:49, 27 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hehe, ok. --Z 16:33, 27 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

When is {{term}} going to get the extra features of {{term/t}}? I am growing impatient :) --Vahag (talk) 14:45, 28 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

:) We're working on it, the code is not perfect yet and needs some work before being ready to be used in more templates. --Z 17:08, 28 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

I want to report a problem. Because of some differences between {{l}} and {{term}}, this revision categorizes into Category:Middle Persian entries which need Pahlavi script, while Baghdad is in Category:Middle Persian entries which need Inscriptional Pahlavi script. --Vahag (talk) 08:05, 30 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

That's because the language name in {{rfscript}} doesn't match the name in {{Phli/name}}. All of this will be sidestepped when Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2013/July#The script request categories is done, though. Then the category will be Category:Middle Persian terms needing native script. —CodeCat 11:56, 30 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Z, if you think it's ready, can you make the change to {{term}}? —CodeCat 11:40, 1 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Are you sure that your recent edits work? (I haven't checked them exactly, I'm sure about the rest of the code) --Z 20:58, 1 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

{{form of}} already uses it, as do {{termx}}, {{compound}}, {{prefix}} and {{suffix}}, and there are no errors except for a few occasional ones because the call to {{termx}} is missing a *. So I think it's ready. —CodeCat 21:29, 1 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

OK, I'll Lua-ize it now. --Z 21:31, 1 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Shouldn't we change the "template" parameter to "face" as well? The naming is inconsistent now, as its corresponding variable is named "face". --Z 21:41, 1 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

If you want, yes. It should be empty (nil) for {{l}} if possible. Technically this means we could make a version of {{l}} that makes headword-style links, too. :) —CodeCat 21:54, 1 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

That's true, done. --Z 22:09, 1 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Just wanted to say I still haven't done it because I'm waiting for Category:Pages with script errors to be emptied, so that we can find any possible error more easily. --Z 00:13, 2 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

MewBot is doing null edits on those entries to clear it out, most of it is done already. So I think it's ok. —CodeCat 00:19, 2 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Using action=purge must be faster than this way (which downloads the page content and send it to the server) if you can do it. --Z 22:37, 5 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

A while ago I added automated character stripping for Armenian punctuation, namely <՞> <՜> <՛>, <՟>, but that has stopped working. Also, overriding manual transliteration for hy and xcl has stopped working. What should I do? --Vahag (talk) 22:17, 5 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

The character stripping part apparently works well: {{term|lang=hy|abb՞}} > abb՞ (abb^?), I fixed the issue about overriding manual transliteration. --Z 22:35, 5 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

But not when the character is at the middle of the word. Try ab՞b (ab^?b). --Vahag (talk) 23:08, 5 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

But are they really used at the middle of the word? If so, we should add them to Module:languages instead (entry_name). --Z 23:43, 5 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Yes, they are placed over the stressed vowel and not at the end of the sentences as in European languages. How do I add them to Module:languages? --Vahag (talk) 07:28, 6 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

I was going to convert these to Lua, but then I realised that most of these are really just wrappers around {{term}} (in compatibility mode). They take the same parameters, and all that happens after that is wrapping it in <span class='use-with-mention'> with a bit of descriptive text. I converted {{form of}} to use {{term/t}} to demonstrate this. So is this really worth devoting a whole module to? —CodeCat 20:52, 31 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

We can create a small function for it in Module:links, but since the template is not heavily used in a page, I think we should simply use {{term}} in the template. --Z 21:48, 31 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

I realised that there are some form-of templates that are more intricate, like {{alternative form of}}. Some also add categories, which in turn means using format_categories in Module:utilities. And if some of the form-of templates are better off being converted to Lua, then we might as well convert all of them. Besides, thanks to the invisible "parameter passing" that templates do when invoking modules, if all form-of templates invoke modules directly, we can easily add more parameters to them if we decide to. This is a major problem with the current ones: each one was updated on its own so they all became out of sync and some supported parameters that others didn't, and it is quite a mess... —CodeCat 21:54, 31 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Yes, if they are so similar to each other, their code should be definitely centralized. I think we should put its function in another module (in order not to make Module:links too big) and use template_l_term there (as you know, we have to pass tables to it...). --Z 07:24, 1 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Sometimes it's hard to foresee problems like this and even harder to solve them. This template has become unusable for reconstructed languages, because it adds a - before the * that is needed for reconstructed links, and the term then begins with -*. See Appendix:Proto-Germanic/alatjaną. Do you have any ideas for working around this? The most "correct" way, I think, would be to add the - to the parameter so that you always write the *- in the entry, but that would require updating lots of entries. On the other hand, if we do this, then we might as well abandon {{suffix}} altogether and use {{compound}}, because that template (when converted to Lua) can detect the presence of - and act accordingly. We could also get rid of {{prefix}} and {{confix}} too then. —CodeCat 21:20, 2 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

It's easy to Lua-ize {{compound}} in such a way that works with initial "-" and "*-" (and therefore we would not need {{suffix}}), but we can't get rid of {{prefix}} and {{confix}} (as you know, final hyphen is not used only for prefixes, such as "al-" in your example, which is apparently a stem), is that ok? --Z 17:42, 3 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

I made a post in the BP about merging them all into {{compound}}, but I didn't realise that not all terms ending in - are prefixes. That's kind of a shame because it seemed like a nice idea. —CodeCat 17:58, 3 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Yeah :( --Z 18:15, 3 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

I converted {{compound}} to Lua anyway (Module:compound), and that was surprisingly easy to do thanks to all the other support code we already have. I wonder if we should start writing some kind of central page documenting all of these "libraries" so that people know they can use them. —CodeCat 18:21, 3 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Maybe we should remove documentations of our major modules and move their content to a single page? Otherwise we can list them in WT:LUA with a brief description about each module. --Z 18:54, 3 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

We could introduce a new parameter for {{compound}}, "isrootN=1" or "notaffixN=1", which says that a part of a compound should not be interpreted as an affix. For *alatjaną it would then become: {{compound|*al-|isroot1=1|t1=to drive, move|*-atjaną|lang=gem-pro}}. Do you think this is workable? —CodeCat 18:31, 3 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

That works, but since adding a parameter makes learning and using the template a bit harder, people may think it is easier to have a separate template as before. We should also make the title shorter. By the way, "compound" is not accurate I think, when we have an affix, we usually call the word a derivation, an affixed form, but not compound. --Z 18:54, 3 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

I made a module Module:debug with (for now) a single function. This will produce a string that contains a dump of the value in a Lua-parseable format, recursing to show all values in a table. I thought it might be useful to you. —CodeCat 00:02, 7 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Good idea. --Z 00:06, 7 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

{{suffix}} is adding the wrong category in this entry. It's happening because prepare_title strips diacritics but it also adds the prefix for Appendix pages. That isn't wanted in this case; it should only do the diacritic stripping. Do you know of a way to solve this neatly? —CodeCat 13:31, 14 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

I think we should create another function and move "Remove punctuation" and "Replace diacritics and other characters ..." parts to that function, and call the new function in prepare_title, before the "Link to appendix for reconstructed terms ..." part (these parts are currently after "Link to appendix for reconstructed terms ...", but should be before it), and in Module:compound, we will call this new function instead of prepare_title. --Z 13:45, 14 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi,

Do you mind checking and romanising the Persian translations (verb) please? Please add the noun translations if you can, too. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:43, 20 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi, done. --Z 04:41, 20 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Thanks :) --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:03, 20 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

There are some cases where automatic transliteration isn't wanted. How should this be disabled? —CodeCat 01:35, 26 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

I think Greek "Αντιγκέα" (Adygea) should be manually transliterated as "Adigéa", not "Antigkéa" (automatic), like many loanwords. "ντ" and "γκ" are pronounced /d/ and /g/ in loanwords. There are some bits and pieces in WT:AEL and Module:el-translit but I'm not sure about the exact rules at Wiktionary for Greek. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:45, 26 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

So maybe we shouldn't override manual transliteration for Greek, let's discuss it with other users such as User:Saltmarsh as well. --Z 08:23, 26 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

I don't really agree with having manual transliteration being overridden by an automatic one. At best, I think we should track such cases with a category, but those writing the entries should always have the final say over those writing the transliteration modules. —CodeCat 10:59, 26 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

I agree with not to override manual transliteration if we remove all manual transliterations for languages that have automated transliteration first. --Z 12:31, 26 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

A general good solution is passing an empty string to "tr", it's easy to use and easy to remember. Module:links is adding these terms to Category:Terms passing empty string to tr to make things ready if we decide to do this. --Z 08:23, 26 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

I seldom work with Greek, only some occasional translations. Perhaps Greek editors should be consulted. I'll just follow the development. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 08:32, 26 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Passing an empty string is not such a good idea, because it means that the module has to make a distinction between empty and not present. I think using tr=- is better. —CodeCat 10:57, 26 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

An alternative is to use another template. The good news is that we already have one, {{l-self}}. —CodeCat 11:18, 26 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Let's avoid creating another template. I agree with tr=-, which is safer than tr=. --Z 12:31, 26 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Did you only read half of my message? —CodeCat 13:00, 26 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

{{l-self}} is for inflection tables and headword lines, according to the docs. Is that, inflection tables and headword lines, the only places in which we may want to remove automated transliteration? --Z 13:17, 26 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

quoted from the top ":I think Greek "Αντιγκέα" (Adygea) should be manually transliterated as "Adigéa", not "Antigkéa" &#133;"

(I'm sorry to let this run before jumping in) The place for pronunciation is in the "Pronunciation" section - the transliteration is just that "transliteration": an attempt to reproducibly represent Greek letters in Roman form. Can we have some exceptions where auto-translit fails. — Saltmarsh^{απάντηση} 15:07, 28 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Apparently you have cases like "μπ" (i.e. "mp") = "b" and "ντ" (i.e. "nt") = "d" in the translit module, so the attempt to transliterate letter by letter in Roman form is not always consistent. That's fine to tweak the transliteration to make it practical and useful, especially with unpredictable exceptions. Imagine the use of transliterating English words in Greek letter by letter, ignoring the pronunciation. It's possible but is it useful? --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 15:25, 28 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

But it is consistent (isn't it?) "μπ": is always = "b" initially and always "mp" medially (see: μπαμπάκι (bampáki)) which is handled as it should be. — Saltmarsh^{απάντηση} 16:28, 28 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Will you please stop doing that? Your edits are causing script errors, and lots of them too. What is it exactly that you're trying to do? Why isn't Category:Link with section right? —CodeCat 13:36, 26 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Sorry about script error.

I just opened your talk page to explain that. I do know Category:Link with section will cover entries in Category:Headword with transliteration in head, but most of those entries are not what I'm looking for, and are not urgent to be fixed (actually there's nothing to fix in most of them, using section in head is just a redundancy issue), but the entries that I'm looking for (in Category:Headword with transliteration in head) really need to be fixed and it's an important issue, so I dedicated a new category for them. These entries are the ones that have used {{l}} inside head, which is fail especially if {{l}} generates transliteration for that language. --Z 13:43, 26 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Yes, the category contains those too, see céad míle fáilte. The script error was caused because you were using "find" on head, but head was nil. —CodeCat 13:47, 26 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

But even céad míle fáilte is not what I'm looking for, there's nothing to fix because {{l}} doesn't add transliteration there (my category excludes these entries). --Z 13:52, 26 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Ok, you are looking for something more specific. Do you think my category is useful too, though? —CodeCat 14:26, 26 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Yes, it's good to get rid of those redundant sections and {{l}}s to have a more clean code. --Z 14:30, 26 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Wiktionary:Grease_pit/2013/August#.7B.7Bt.C3.B8.7D.7D_or_.7B.7Bt.7D.7D_issues_spotted Would you know how to help here? —CodeCat 01:52, 27 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Thread:User_talk:CodeCat/la-noun strangeness Could you help with this? It should just display black text here but it's not. —CodeCat 12:51, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply

Middle Persian isn't listed in Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2011-09/Romanization of languages in ancient scripts 2 so strictly speaking, any Middle Persian in Latin script is a candidate for immediate deletion. It could of course be possible to add more languages to that list, given that Middle Persian uses an obscure script. But that's hypothetical; de jure these are invalid. Mglovesfun (talk) 15:40, 17 October 2013 (UTC)Reply

I'm creating them in Latin script because Book Pahlavi is not yet supported in unicode (these entries will be moved in future). --Z 15:58, 17 October 2013 (UTC)Reply

Is ' at the end a mistake? You're linking to wʾčʾlkʾn from վաճառական (vačaṙakan) and بازرگان. --Vahag (talk) 21:24, 17 October 2013 (UTC)Reply

wʾčʾlkʾn was a mistake, I corrected them, thanks for pointing that out. --Z 04:49, 18 October 2013 (UTC)Reply

Isn't Module:links supposed to do script detection? If so, can all cases of Armenian in Latin script be found? --Vahag (talk) 21:40, 27 October 2013 (UTC)Reply

Yes, I have plans to add a feature to the templates to detect invalid characters for each language/script (including IPA). --Z 16:28, 30 October 2013 (UTC)Reply

OK, will wait for the implementation. --Vahag (talk) 16:52, 30 October 2013 (UTC)Reply

Done, these entries will be listed at Category:Terms using script detection fallback/hy. --Z 20:01, 26 December 2013 (UTC)Reply

Great! I'll cast my fishing line and wait for the little fishies to appear in the category. --Vahag (talk) 20:12, 26 December 2013 (UTC)Reply

The category catches many false positives because of the character "—", invalid for Armenian. Where is the list of valid characters? I need to add some punctuation there. --Vahag (talk) 20:40, 26 December 2013 (UTC)Reply

The list of characters is at Module:scripts/data, but if we add em dash to that list it will mess up other codes, because the character is not used only in Armenian. Instead I tried to fix this by changing Template:hy-decl-noun (my change also fixed a minor issue about showing the dashes). --Z 07:16, 27 December 2013 (UTC)Reply

I didn't know about ifeq's functionality. The changes are perfect, thank you. --Vahag (talk) 08:44, 27 December 2013 (UTC)Reply

Take a look. — Ungoliant ^(Falai) 12:07, 31 October 2013 (UTC)Reply

How do you think we should handle cases of tanween assimilation in the transcription? For نَارًۭا لَّعَلِّىٓ, I think naral-laʿallī makes the most sense, but you seem to want nara l-laʿallī, which I think makes no sense at all. --WikiTiki89 17:54, 1 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

We should not represent that in transcription to start with if you ask me, so it should be nāran laʿallī (I didn't change it to nāran laʿallī because I didn't want to change the transcription system you used; BTW you should change jaḏwatin mina to jaḏwatim-mina, for the sake of consistency). --Z 18:16, 1 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

I already fixed that. I think we should indicate it, after all transcriptions are for showing what is written in the Arabic, and that is what is written in the Arabic. --WikiTiki89 18:33, 1 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

Actually, I think maybe you are right, but then the question is should we show assimilation of الـ? --WikiTiki89 19:00, 1 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

According to WT:AR TR, "ال always gives al- regardless of elision and sun and moon letters rules", I think it's a good practice. --Z 20:23, 1 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

Ok, but that page needs serious revising anyway. --WikiTiki89 20:54, 1 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi Z,

You may be interested in latest discussions there. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 03:26, 4 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi Z,

Could you transliterate Persian "سیاه‌رگ" at vein#Translations, please? --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 08:28, 12 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi, done. --Z 08:36, 12 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi! What is your source for Parthian sfsyr (safsēr, “sword”)? None of my sources know about it, so they have to derive սուսեր (suser) from Syriac ܣܦܣܝܪܐ (sap̄sērāʾ). Parthian fits much better. We could do a little original research and claim the word is from Parthian, if it is indeed attested. Also, in general, could you please list your sources in a ===References=== section, like me and User:334a do? --Vahag (talk) 11:02, 12 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi, Parthian sfsyr (safsēr, “sword”) and the Middle Persian form have been mentioned in this article (page 34) as the root of the Syriac term. The article says "parth." before the word sfsyr, but it is a Manichaean Parthian word (judging by the spelling), it is attested in a Manichaean Parthian manuscript. Yes, I often forget adding the refernces that I've used, I added them to شمشیر and սուսեր. --Z 12:25, 12 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, references make Wiktionary much more valuable. --Vahag (talk) 13:22, 12 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi Z! I miss workin with you. You sane, sane person. Why can't there be more of you? And Vahag. Vahag, you know science. Clones on the double, man. — — 17:10, 12 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hey, HAHA, nice to see you around. --Z 17:38, 12 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

We miss you too, buddy. Edit more often. --Vahag (talk) 18:10, 12 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

I do a little bit here and there lol.... Trying to make myself of some small use in Armenian of recent. — — 18:22, 12 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

Make yourself useful in Arabic, Ric, which is almost dead here, since you stop adding conjugation templates. I'll get back to it with the module but it will take me forever. For me to work with Arabic I need books, quiet and motivation, which is often hard to get at one time. I can only work from home on it. For Armenian we have Vahag. Sorry, but he can do it better. :) Of course you can do it for your own benefit. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 23:37, 12 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hey man Arabic is hard lol. And yes, my attention to Armenian is highly selfish. :) It's hard to get excited about doing too much here the way some people comport themselves. Not that I'm the most agreeable person on planet Earth, but you know. :D — — 23:45, 12 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi,

Do you think Dari can be merged with Persian? See Wiktionary:Requests_for_moves,_mergers_and_splits#Persian, Dari, etc. {{context|Dari|lang=fa}} can still be used. CC Dijan (talk • contribs). --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:56, 4 December 2013 (UTC)Reply

This Middle Persian-Farsi-Armenian-Russian-English dictionary published in Armenia may be useful in your work. Just letting you know about it. I can make a reference template, if necessary.--Vahag (talk) 17:25, 26 December 2013 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for sharing it, it must be a good source, I'm downloading it (it may take a year or two though :))) --Z 17:30, 26 December 2013 (UTC)Reply

Mullahs blocking the Internet? :) If you don't manage to download it, I'll send you the .pdf by email. --Vahag (talk) 17:39, 26 December 2013 (UTC)Reply

LOL that's ok, just 20 minutes remaining (even if you email it, still I have to download the attached file). --Z 17:42, 26 December 2013 (UTC)Reply

This page is meant to test for script errors, but could you change it so that the page doesn't trigger a real script error? It's been in Category:Pages with script errors for a while now... —CodeCat 04:26, 12 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

Kind of strange because in fact there's no real script error there, since we have used iferror. Anyway, after recent changes to Module:links only one test triggers script error, which was not very important, so I removed it. --Z 15:07, 12 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

It's doing it again. It's really strange that there is no error on the page, but it still says there is one. —CodeCat 14:13, 21 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

There are several similar strange cases in Category:Pages with script errors/hidden, such as User:-xfi-/common.js, we should report this at Bugzilla. --Z 07:40, 22 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

The diacritics seem to indicate muhassal, not sure whether they're wrong or the transcription is? Ƿidsiþ 15:06, 19 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

It was correct. As you know, kasra (i) is shown by a diagonal line below the letter. However, if there's already a shadda on the same letter, this diagonal line is usually put above the letter, and immediately below shadda (fatha is also put above the letter, but immediately above shadda), most fonts follow this rule, and I guess this is what you are seeing on that page. --Z 16:14, 19 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

Hey there! Would you happen to know why the script name is repeating 9 times in the main language categories and why it only shows the first script? (For example, take a look at Category:Persian_language). --Dijan (talk) 21:52, 20 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

Hi, Category:Persian_language looks ok, apparently the issue has already been fixed. --Z 07:36, 22 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, it looked like it was fixed an hour or so after I posted this. Sorry for bothering you. --Dijan (talk) 20:33, 22 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

One more question, possibly related to this. When linking words that contain the Devanagari visarga character via Template:l, it is automatically redirected to the entry without a visarga. For example, when you link छः, it automatically changes it to छ. --Dijan (talk) 08:46, 27 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

The behavior is intentional, it is from line 50 of Module:languages, it contains a set of characters that should be removed from all entry names, and visarga is among them. I don't know who added it and why, but if you are sure it shouldn't be there, let's remove it. --Z 09:21, 27 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

Thanks. I have no idea, but I've gone ahead and removed it. --Dijan (talk) 09:47, 27 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

Hello again. Is this also the same reason why Turkish âşık automatically links to aşık? --Dijan (talk) 08:46, 6 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

Yes, I made a change to Module:languages/data2, now it links to âşık. --Z 08:51, 6 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

ZxxZxxZ, thanks a lot for your help with Farsi and Arabic etymology! You are helping a lot.

Cheers, Borovi4ok (talk) 08:37, 3 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

You're welcome! --Z 10:42, 3 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

Hi, can you please have a look at һәйбәт#Etymology?

I suspect this might be of Persian descent. Would be great if you could establish or refute it. Borovi4ok (talk) 08:27, 11 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

Hi, done. --Z 09:10, 11 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

Thanx a lot! Borovi4ok (talk) 09:26, 11 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

Hi,

Can you please check the Persian source at һарай#Etymology - does it have the meaning of "cattle shed" alongside with "palace"? Borovi4ok (talk) 14:40, 27 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

Hi, no, I couldn't find such sense for the Persian word. --Z 15:51, 5 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

It's a Middle Persian entry, but I'm fairly sure Middle Persian didn't use the Latin script. Can you fix it? --WikiTiki89 23:44, 15 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

We did not hold a formal vote but Middle Persian in Latin should be allowed by the rationale of this Vote. The transliteration table is at Wiktionary:PAL TR. Note also that Psalter Pahlavi, Book Pahlavi and Manichaean scripts are not yet available in Unicode. --Vahag (talk) 06:50, 16 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

I was not aware of that vote and thought that romanizations can only be entries for languages that do not have full Unicode support, such as Ancient Egyptian. Why can't we use Inscriptional Pahlavi or Parthian? The rationale of that vote can be incorporated by having soft redirects from romanizations to actual entries in the correct script. --WikiTiki89 22:18, 16 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

Because not all words are attested in Inscriptional Pahlavi or Inscriptional Parthian. --Vahag (talk) 06:40, 17 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

But how different are they? As long as there is a clear correspondence between them it doesn't matter. For example, in the Latin script we don't differentiate between Roman, Insular, Fraktur, etc. And in Hebrew we don't differentiate between block script, cursive, or Rashi script. --WikiTiki89 06:54, 17 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

They are quite different. Even the number of graphemes is different. Read Pahlavi scripts. There are proposals to include Book Pahlavi and Psalter Pahlavi in Unicode. --Vahag (talk) 07:27, 17 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

In which cases is the template buggy? I'm not native Persian so please let me know. --kc_kennylau (talk) 09:38, 22 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

ā is pronounced short before final n and m in Iranian Persian, also the template interpreted ' as /ʔ/ instead of stress mark. --Z 09:43, 22 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

I can always fix the problem just tell me the problems and I'll hack into the templates :) --kc_kennylau (talk) 09:48, 22 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

It's easy to fix, I haven't fix it because I'm working on a new, Lua version of the template. --Z 09:54, 22 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

Can I help you? --kc_kennylau (talk) 09:55, 22 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

The code is actually ready, I just need some certain phonological information about some accents. --Z 10:04, 22 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

Can you verify this edit? --WikiTiki89 17:36, 6 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

Hello,

what is the sense of removing the "Descendants" section? Borovi4ok (talk) 06:47, 16 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

That section is for things like Latin to French, Italian, Romanian. Old English to modern English. It's not for borrowings. Bashkir isn't a descendant of Persian. — — 02:05, 17 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

It seems to be used that way a lot though. Is there a consensus on the issue? --WikiTiki89 02:10, 17 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

Hey Ric, I disagree. Bashkir isn't a descendant of Persian but words derived from Persian are its descendants. E.g. words listed at भाषा#Sanskrit are descendants of Sanscrit, even if languages only borrowed from it and are not direct descendants. Yes, it is used that way a lot. There's no policy as such but a common practice. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:57, 17 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

Either the section should be renamed or it should be split up, otherwise we're going to have (neo-)Latin words in descendants of languages descended from Latin. I'm not into theoretical feedback loops. — — 13:47, 17 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

That's not exactly a loop, since neo-Latin words can't go back in time and influence descendants of Latin. --WikiTiki89 16:03, 17 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

Hey, Z, where have you disappeared? I hope you haven't been stoned for using Wiktionary in Iran. I have a lot of Persian questions. Could you look at պատուանդան (patuandan)? Is there an alternative form pāband for پایوند (pāyvand, “fetter”)? Can پای بست (pāy bast, “foundation”) be also spelled pābast? --Vahag (talk) 20:12, 28 May 2014 (UTC)Reply

Maybe Z. IS stoned but in a quite different way :) --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 22:54, 28 May 2014 (UTC)Reply

I'm alive lol. Yes, see the newly created پایوند and پای‌بست. --Z 19:05, 19 June 2014 (UTC)Reply

Thank you! And welcome back. --Vahag (talk) 21:12, 19 June 2014 (UTC)Reply

Salaam, Z! I recently learned about a Persian/Arabic dish of meat cooked in vinegar, called sikbāj or sikbājā, which was reportedly loved by a number of Persian kings. I think it might be spelled سِكباج in Persian and/or Arabic. Can you tell me if that's right? - -sche (discuss) 21:13, 10 July 2014 (UTC)Reply

Salaam, the Arabic word is سِكْبَاج m (sikbāj) / سِكْبَاجَة f (sikbāja), it's Persian spelling is سکباج (sekbâj) (the Arabic and Persian words look identical in shape, but Arabic uses the character ك for k, while Persian uses ک). The word is the Arabized form of Middle Persian *sikbāg (sḵ (sik, “vinegar”) + *bāg ). Persian also has سکبا (sekbâ) which is directly from Middle Persian, and was apparently more common. --Z 22:01, 10 July 2014 (UTC)Reply

Thank you for the thorough answer! :) - -sche (discuss) 22:48, 10 July 2014 (UTC)Reply

Are you sure Persian تیران (Tirān) is related to Tigran? It is probably the cognate of Armenian Տիրան (Tiran), from the name of the god Tīr. On this name see Hübschmann, page 88.

The origin of Armenian Տիգրան (Tigran) is very much disputed. I have given only one proposal because I only have Ačaṙyan's etymology at hand. --Vahag (talk) 20:44, 12 July 2014 (UTC)Reply

No I'm not sure, I haven't done much research, I had seen this name in Persian works to refer to some Armenian and Arsacid figures and I thought it's the equivalent of an older Tigran, I didn't know Armenian has also Tiran. --Z 21:01, 12 July 2014 (UTC)Reply

I see. Tigran and Tiran are independent names, although it appears there was some confusion among the ancients. See Iranisches Namenbuch, page 324 and page 325. --Vahag (talk) 21:14, 12 July 2014 (UTC)Reply

Re tiγri-: I think it is found in Yasht 8.6: "yaθa tiγriš mainya-asǡ yim aŋhaṱ ərəxšō xšviwi.išuš xšviwi.išvatəmō airyanąm airyō.xsuθaṱ hača garōiṱ xᵛanvantəm avi gairīm" “like the mind-swift arrow which the archer Ǝrexša shot, swift-arrowed, most swift-arrowed of the Aryas, from Mount Airyō-xšuθa to Mount Xvanvant.” Bartholomae puts the nominative as tiγray-, but others refer to it as tiγri-. I don't know which is correct. --Vahag (talk) 22:41, 12 July 2014 (UTC)Reply

Dammit, it was a headache. Based on my references and my poor knowledge of the subject, the tiγriš in 8:6 suggests the base form is nothing but 𐬙𐬌𐬖𐬭𐬌 (tiγri-, “arrow”). This guy says it's 𐬙𐬌𐬖𐬭𐬀 (tiγra-, “arrow”), citing Yasht 8:6, which is weird. tiγray- in is also quite strange as there is no such stem or ending as ay/aē for nouns in the language. I kept it as tiγri-. --Z 00:40, 13 July 2014 (UTC)Reply

Good. In the future in such disputed cases we can link to the attested inflected form to avoid headache, like we sometimes do for Old Persian. --Vahag (talk) 07:54, 13 July 2014 (UTC)Reply

Hi,

Could you transliterate it at dishwasher, please? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:05, 25 August 2014 (UTC)Reply

Hi, done. --Z 09:33, 27 August 2014 (UTC)Reply

Hello, Z. I have been looking for the online version of the dictionary Ačaṙyan calls "A Turkish translation of Qamus" (this reference). I think I finally found it here. To check this, can you see if for example page 77 in volume I has the word بردزبه (bardazba). I can't read it or find page 77. --Vahag (talk) 22:31, 2 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

@Vahagn Petrosyan Page 77 (Arabic ٧٧) is the one given electronically as page 117. But it looks more like Arabic to me than (Ottoman) Turkish. --WikiTiki89 23:37, 2 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

It should be part Arabic, part Ottoman Turkish. --Vahag (talk) 08:10, 3 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

Also, are the publication data of this volume the same as of the one linked above or are they first and second editions? Pinging also @Atitarev, @Benwing. --Vahag (talk) 08:22, 3 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for pinging me but I don't know this word. I will check Hans Wehr dictionary, when I get to it. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:08, 4 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

I've checked Hans Wehr, it doesn't have this word, sorry, couldn't help. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 23:25, 4 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

It's OK. I wanted to verify the file I found was the Qamus. The particular word is not important. --Vahag (talk) 05:51, 5 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

The first link is apparently the one you're looking for, I found the word/entry for بردزبه in page 77, in middle of line 14 (electronically page 117, as Wikitiki said). The second link (archive.org) seems to be a different edition. --Z 09:54, 3 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

It was written in Ottoman Turkish btw. --Z 10:02, 3 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for finding Waldo on the page. Sometimes I wondered whether this dictionary ever existed outside Acharyan's cabinet. Now we know it did. --Vahag (talk) 22:43, 3 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

Hey Z,

Could you please take a look at fa-noun and see why the plural transliterations aren't showing up. I dare not accuse people of messing with templates and modules when they shouldn't. --Dijan (talk) 18:52, 4 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

This is because {{head}} does not support them. This is currently being discussed in the WT:GP. --WikiTiki89 19:00, 4 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

Hi Z,

What's the pronunciation of قحطی? Is it "qahti"? Please confirm or fix at famine. Persian wiki has (~.) where they usually have diacritics. Does it have any meaning? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:14, 9 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

What's strange to me is that it looks like an Arabic loanword, but I cannot seem to find any references to either قحطي or قحطى in Arabic. --WikiTiki89 00:22, 9 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

Yes, it is qahti, I added it. ~ means "the same as the previous one/entry", but it is obviously mistakenly used here (most of the entries in fa.wiktionary have been created by bots which just copy everything from Moein dictionary and paste them there).

Wikitiki89, it's actually from the Arabic loanword قحط (qaht) + the Persian suffix ـی (-i, “the state of being ...”) (Etymology 2). --Z 08:41, 9 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

Thank you! --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 22:47, 9 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

Not sure if you've been following, but I've totally rewritten Module:ar-verb so it has all of the conjugations implemented, including all of the forms and all of the weaknesses (including the complicated rules for how to write hamzas, even including multiple alternative forms that exist in some situations, typically when the rules call for a sequence ؤو). It also supports inferring the radicals from the headword, automatic transliteration, truly irregular verbs and other nice features.

The primary thing needed now is to add conjugations to as many verbs as possible. This is done using a single template {{ar-conj}} to insert conjugation, which calls Module:ar-verb behind the scenes. Easiest to do first is non-form-I verbs, because they just require as arguments the form and perhaps the appropriate value of passive= (y, n or impers). If you don't know the appropriate passive value, make a guess and put a question mark after the value (or just use a ? alone as the value, which will use the usually sensible default value); doing this places the word into Category:Arabic verbs needing passive checked.

Again, any help you could give adding conjugations to Arabic verbs would be greatly appreciated. Benwing (talk) 12:18, 9 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

Looks good. Lets exclude exceptions like laysa and manually create a table somewhere like {{ar-conj/laysa}}. --Z 17:27, 22 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

Thank you guys for taking my templates and making them something elegant and useful, and not something ugly and worthless. — — 12:40, 18 November 2014 (UTC)Reply

Hi Z,

Have I romanised it correctly - "mahalle-ye čini-hâ"? Is this singular? My guess is, it's literally "a block/street of Chinese". --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:02, 5 November 2014 (UTC)Reply

Hi, yes, that's correct, it's singular. For the literal meaning, I would say " block/quarter of the Chinese" --Z 09:13, 5 November 2014 (UTC)Reply

Hi Z,

Could you transliterate دنباله‌دار, please at comet? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:55, 14 November 2014 (UTC)Reply

I've done it myself, please check when you're back. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 06:39, 21 November 2014 (UTC)Reply

Is ن ever transliterated as "m" as you did? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 12:47, 26 November 2014 (UTC)Reply

Hi, we usually transliterate that as mb instead of nb in Persian entries. --Z 12:56, 26 November 2014 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, Z. Does WT:FA TR need an update? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 22:20, 26 November 2014 (UTC)Reply

Yes, it's a good idea to have a footnote or something about this. --Z 10:19, 27 November 2014 (UTC)Reply

Hi, Z-man. Did you use some source in this edit of yours? Most dictionaries derive the mosque-words from Arabic مَسْجِدٌ (masjid) and explain the -g- instead of -j- by the North African pronunciation. However, I do not understand why would Middle Persian mzgt' (mazgit), Middle Armenian մզկիթ (mzkitʻ), Byzantine Greek μασγίδα (masgída) / μασγίδιον (masgídion) etc. be borrowed from North African Arabic. I find your derivation from Aramaic plausible, but do you have a source? --Vahag (talk) 13:49, 17 November 2014 (UTC)Reply

Hey! The Persian-language sources that I had checked mostly say it's an Aramaic borrowing. See "msgd" in CAL, which says it is borrowed by Arabic. I will check "Masdjed" in EoI, probably tomorrow, and let you know if I find anything. --Z 12:52, 26 November 2014 (UTC)Reply

According to A. Samb, "MASDJID", Encyclopedia of Islam, new ed., vol. VI, Brill 1991, →ISBN, page 644b:

msgd' is "found in Aramaic as early as the Jewish Elephantine Papyri (5th century B.C.)," and also in Nabataean, with the meaning "place of worship", but possibly, originally "stele, sacred pillar". The Syriac msgd' and Amharic masged are late loanwords from Arabic, but Ge'ez mashgâd "temple, church" may be a genuine formation from the verbal root s-g-d, but the root itself is borrowed from Aramaic. The article ultimately says the Arabic word may be directly from Aramaic msgd' or formed from the root س ج د (s-j-d), itself borrowed from Aramaic s-g-d. It cites A. Jeffery, The foreign vocabulary of the Qur'an, Baroda 1938, pp. 263-4.

I can't do much googling and research at the moment. The Arabic word apparently initially meant "place of worship of Jewish people", later "any place of worship". Do the Greek and Armenian words simply mean "mosque"? The final alpha in the Byzantine Greek word is not a native Greek ending, is it? (Arabic doesn't have مسجدة masğida with the meaning "mosque, etc."; Aramaic has masgedâ "place of worship") --Z 10:44, 27 November 2014 (UTC)Reply

Yes, the Armenian and Greek words simply mean “mosque”. I do not know if -α in Greek is a native development. It seems even the best and newest sources like EoI contradict themselve. I wanted to identify the basic etymon and list the descendants there showing their complex interrelationship, but now that task seems too hard. Let's postpone it. --Vahag (talk) 13:16, 6 December 2014 (UTC)Reply

Hello, I am not fully sure about the best way to put this in English. I think the problem is that I don't fully understand it in Persian. Any better translations are welcome. Thanks! Kaixinguo (talk) 13:40, 27 November 2014 (UTC)Reply

lol Yes the meaning and usage is not identical to those English expressions, it indicates that the speaker would no longer provide the service or give a particular thing/opportunity (that s/he used to provide/give) to the listener, (used when the listener claim or expect that thing). --Z 14:08, 27 November 2014 (UTC)Reply

Hello, there is a small discussion about 'مثلن' on my talk page. If anyone could say something about it then it would be appreciated, but don't worry if you are too busy; by all means just delete it if you should feel like it. Kaixinguo (talk) 21:01, 10 December 2014 (UTC)Reply

This has an invisible ZWNJ on the end. There is an entry for اسکناس, though. I will add a 'delete' template. Kaixinguo (talk) 19:36, 18 December 2014 (UTC)Reply

I think I might have been wrong about the etymology, please have a look and correct it if necessary, thank you! Kaixinguo (talk) 19:45, 18 December 2014 (UTC)Reply

Nevermind, I found it mentioned on Persian wikipedia as being from Russian. Kaixinguo (talk) 20:22, 18 December 2014 (UTC)Reply

@Dijan, @Irman Hello, I am trying to find out more information about the use of آتنا as a name. I couldn't find an academic source saying that آتنا is from the verb آتِنَا in the Quran, but it seems to be a popular or common theory. If you know anything about the origin of آتنا then I would be grateful to know when you have the time. Thank you. Kaixinguo (talk) 16:34, 11 January 2015 (UTC)Reply

These may be connected: Old Armenian Աթենայ (Atʻenay, “name of a certain Roman lady”) and Armenian Աթինէ (Atʻinē, “name of a certain Armenian woman in early 20th century Constantinople”). Ačaṙyan derives both from Ancient Greek Ἀθηνᾶ (Athēnâ). --Vahag (talk) 18:15, 11 January 2015 (UTC)Reply

I highly doubt it is derived from Arabic. However, you're more than welcome to list it as an opposing theory with adequate sources in the etymology section. --Dijan (talk) 21:32, 11 January 2015 (UTC)Reply

Obiously it is doubtful that it is derived from Arabic; I have made that clear and that is why I am asking about it. Kaixinguo (talk) 14:14, 12 January 2015 (UTC)Reply

I apologize for my opinion. I was under the impression that you needed help and suggestions. My bad. --Dijan (talk) 05:52, 13 January 2015 (UTC)Reply

Hi Z,

Could you translate part of speech into Persian, please? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:14, 5 February 2015 (UTC)Reply

Hi, sure, done. --Z 09:35, 5 February 2015 (UTC)Reply

Hello, ZxxZxxZ. I am trying to create a template for Umbundu and it has very similar features that Swahili has, so I thought on using the sw-noun template as a skeleton for umb-noun. The problem is that the template is not working properly for one of the noun classes, and I am trying to find out what this part means in Module:sw-utilities: (sg_class == "m" and "u?" or ""). Can you help me please?

Hi, it means if sg_class equals "m" then return "u?", otherwise return "". Therefore, that line means if sg_class is "m", then remove "mu" or "m" from the beginning of the word, otherwise only remove the string that has been passed to sg_class from the beginning of the word. It was kind of an ad-hoc code as a solution for sw-noun, it is probably better not to use it as a base for another module, unless what you want is very simillar to what the code does. --Z 16:03, 18 February 2015 (UTC)Reply

Hello, sorry to bother you but do you know anything about the etymology of this word? Vahagn Petrosyan was asking about it and I can only find it in more recent dictionaries. Could it be from Azeri or something? Thanks for any help. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 12:58, 12 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

I am not so much interested in the etymology as in the time of the earliest attestation of the Persian word. Ačaṙean, not knowing about the Persian word, puts all of the descendants as Armenian borrowings. But if the Persian word is early, that will be excluded. --Vahag (talk) 13:34, 12 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

Long time no see! I couldn't find any etymological information about the Persian word in Persian dictionaries either (Dehkhoda, Moein, Amid). It is only used in Iranian Persian, and there is no trace of it in several other Iranian languages, Ottoman Turkish (does Turkish parç actually exist?) and South Asian languages that were influenced by Persian, so it is a late borrowing (possibly from Azeri). Vahag, I remember seeing this pʿ and čʿ stuff usually in Persian borrowings. I don't know if this is relevant but the Persian pronunciation is . --Z 14:03, 12 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

Do you mean me or Vahagn? Thanks for your help. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 22:21, 12 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

Both, except last part. --Z 22:27, 12 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

I did more research. Armenian is definitely borrowed from Persian. Turkic forms are dialectal and are borrowed from Armenian. I have created the entries with references. There is no known etymology of the Persian word. I corresponded with Martirosyan. It turns out he has a plausible native Iranian etymology for پارچ. I don't want to publicize it before he refines and publishes his proposal.

pʿ and čʿ are the aspirated variants of p and č. Modern Persian and Late Middle Persian p and č are aspirated in Armenian borrowings. --Vahag (talk) 18:46, 13 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the research. The finding of Martirosyan must be interesting. --Z 19:54, 13 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

:o Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 20:00, 13 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

By the way, why did you remove the qualifier 'US' from 'pitcher'? Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 20:03, 13 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

Because the article is not about the word "pitcher", but about the word "پارچ". The details of English dialectology is irrelevant to the Persian word. --WikiTiki89 20:08, 13 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

Yes. Bilingual print dictionaries sometimes qualify translations with a regional tag, but Wiktionary's advantage is that such information is just one click away. --Vahag (talk) 20:16, 13 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

Well, I must disagree. If a native speaker of Persian were to consult Wiktionary in order to find the English translation of this word, the information ought to be presented to them on that page as it would be in a normal dictionary. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 20:24, 13 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

I don't feel strongly about this. Restore US if you want to. But IMO that's just needless duplication. --Vahag (talk) 20:50, 13 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

No, it's fine. It doesn't matter. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 21:16, 13 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

IMHO, the etymology section still reads a little oddly. I think it may be due to the repetition of 'the word...that word...the word', but I can't put my finger on it, sorry. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 09:19, 14 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

Hello, sorry to disturb you again. Could you please tell me what your opinion is of this word? Has it really entered current usage? Thank you :) Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 14:34, 16 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

Hey, it is not used by ordinary people, but media outlets (Internet and TV programs) sometimes use it (سلفی is still more common), we can have an entry for it. --Z 17:30, 16 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

Thanks :D Did you hear that the British Embassy will re-open in Tehran; I hope that means the Iranian Embassy in London will re-open too. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 19:22, 16 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

Actually they were working on it to re-open it some time after the issue, but the process will probably be facilitated thanks to the deal. You reminded me of the proverb کار، کار انگلیسی‌هاست which was hilariously used by one of those thugs who was thinking he is in 1979 in an interview during the event, I will create it now. --Z 20:39, 16 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

Hello there. I have been curious about this for a while, but based on my (albeit limited) research, it seems like the Avestan script should be written right-to-left, but all the Wiktionary entries have it left-to-right. Do you know why this is? —JohnC5 13:52, 26 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

Some systems (without proper configuration for RTL languages) don't show RTL terms correctly. Do you mean in the page name at top of the entries, or you mean it is LTR everywhere? How do you see "𐬛𐬀𐬉𐬎𐬎𐬀" or "𐬛𐬀𐬉𐬎𐬎𐬀" ("daēuua")? I'm seeing the letter 𐬛 (d) on the far right followed by the letter 𐬀 (a). --Z 17:22, 26 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

Aha, without the linking I just see boxes and with linking I see the exact reverse of what you describe. Also, the page name also appears LTR. Is there anything I can do to fix this? —JohnC5 18:22, 26 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

Hmm I've never encountered with such problems, but speakers of LTR languages who have worked with RTL languages can possibly help (@Atitarev, Vahagn Petrosyan, Stephen G. Brown, Dijan) --Z 18:56, 26 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

I too see what John described. I can't help with this. --Vahag (talk) 19:02, 26 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

Ideally, font direction is a characteristic that is included within the font itself. Unicode and Truetype Arabic and Persian fonts have this characteristic. For some reason, perhaps because many of the Avestan font makers are archaeolinguists and not professional fontographers, they (at least some of them) seem to have copied images of old Avestan characters and created truetype fonts without a direction characteristic. For fonts of this sort, you have to use them in a right-to-left operating system, such as Persian Windows. A couple of examples of such Avestan fonts are Mithra and Hoffman. Because these fonts lack a direction characteristic, you would need to use a reverser, such as the one at http://www.geomtech.com/~rminer/reverser/. —Stephen ^(Talk) 21:32, 27 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

@Stephen G. Brown: Would it also work if I downloaded some RTL Avestan fonts, and if so, which ones? —JohnC5 21:48, 27 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

I believe that this one is RTL. —Stephen ^(Talk) 22:04, 27 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

@Stephen G. Brown: Is this a font or a description of the script? If it is a font, I cannot find the download button... —JohnC5 22:40, 27 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

It has links to various fonts. I checked one, but it was LTR. Another one looks promising, named Alphabetum, but it’s not free. There may not be any free Avestan fonts that are RTL. —Stephen ^(Talk) 03:35, 28 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

Have you guys ever used "Ahuramazda"? --Z 11:47, 28 July 2015 (UTC)Reply