Wiktionary:Etymology scriptorium/2023/July

suicide

RFV of etym. Were these really coined by Browne? OED dates the Latin word to 12c. 蒼鳥 _{fawk. tell me if i did anything wrong.} 08:57, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Rewritten and cited the etym on both pages according to the source I found. Please edit further if you can provide more information. 蒼鳥 _{fawk. tell me if i did anything wrong.} 08:05, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

@Fawknerfawk: I see that you removed the -cide mention. I added it as “See -cide (“killing (sense 1); killer (sense 3)”)”, because the sense “A person who has intentionally killed themself” is not from suīcīdium (using -cīdium (“act of killing or murder”), not -cīda (“one who kills”)). That sense is by analogy with the other sense of English -cide (from -cīda). J3133 (talk) 08:20, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

@J3133: thank you for the reminder; I added it back. 蒼鳥 _{fawk. tell me if i did anything wrong.} 09:14, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes I did just create this page, but the word is well-attested and found even on the Yiddish-language Wikipedia (albeit without its own article). Any clues as to where the trailing -s comes from compared to German Gebäck? Could it be a Poylish innovation? Insaneguy1083 (talk) 02:59, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

It occurs in sub-standard German: Gesocks, Zeugs, Dings (which is only n in my regiolect), and see also Krams m and Krimskrams m. Fay Freak (talk) 03:41, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Interesting. In that case it looks like gebackenes. We say Dingens (“whatshisface”) and I would accept neuter ^†Dingen (haven't found ein, das ~ in DTA erweitert) following diminutive Mütterchen. See also Luxembourgish Déngen.

On the other hand, when working over Batz and other forms like Batzen I had either missed or dismissed and forgotten the etymology from backen. Where is this change regular, Dingenskirchen maybe? 88.128.92.153 15:35, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Seems easy - greek "Παν αγιώτης" - 'All Saints' or 'wholy Saint'? 46.187.50.77 18:35, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Trying to cobble together bits from Greek Wiktionary, it seems to be a male variant of Παναγία (Panagía), Virgin Mary. Wakuran (talk) 19:49, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Link: Παναγία (Panagía).  --Lambiam 22:10, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Παν +‎ αγιώτης would be more convincing if there was a Greek word *αγιώτης. Note that Ancient Greek had a suffix -ώτης.  --Lambiam 22:10, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Since it is a personal name, "dedicated to All Saints" is more likely. 24.108.18.81 22:11, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

All Saints’ Day is called Άγιοι Πάντες in Greek, literally meaning “All Saints”. *Παν Άγιοι is very ungrammatical, using a neuter singular pronoun to modify a plural masculine noun. There is an adjective πανάγιος, meaning something like “holiest of holy”. It is an intensified form of άγιος, formed with the prefix παν-.  --Lambiam 23:09, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Trying to connect it to German dünsten would be a bit dubious, because of the N and T. Polish dusić is the most likely to me, but U => I is unexplained (maybe via Ü?), and it might have entered Polish from Yiddish instead of the other way round. And English dish makes no sense in more ways than one. Any ideas? Insaneguy1083 (talk) 04:53, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

ditschen? Annecdotally, gravy is called Tunke, apparently something to dip in, to dunk, so eingetunkt must be related to teinauchen, to dive, and taufen (“to bathe”), to dub, which looks like a mess of back and forth borrowing. See also Maultasche, obviously related to meal so the muzzlebag etymology is irrelevant. See also Gulasch, southern Topfengolatschen (aka. Quarktasche). 176.74.57.162 10:39, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

A few observations. Whilst some kind of relation cannot be ruled out, dub seems to have a very dubious connection to the rest of those terms, though it may conceivably be a borrowing ultimately from a Frankish equivalent to the Old English and Old High German ancestor root. Furthermore, I doubt a rigorous close connection between Maul (a vulgar word for mouth) / Maultasche (see detailed etymology there) and English meal can be established. For the purposes of this discussion, meal has two etymologically distinct senses which would respectively connect to either German Mehl (“flour, powder”) (i.e. that which has been milled c.f. oatmeal, bonemeal, wholemeal) or Mahl, as in Mahlzeit (“meal, mealtime”). As for the Yiddish term, perhaps some useful information can be gleaned here (or perhaps from vol. 1 and vol. 2 of the same work). The Polish form seems to be the only Slavic cognate with the sense 'stew', though Czech also has the sense 'steam'. As for connecting it to German, you'd probably need a bit more information to make the call with any certainty and we are constantly reminded that this is not a place for original research. Yet, explaining u or ü ⇾ i is probably the easiest part. Referring to the chart of vowel correspondences at Yiddish#Comparison_with_German, we see that Standard German short ü /ʏ/ corresponds to /ɪ/ in 4 of the main Yiddish dialects and Standard German short u /ʊ/ also coincides with Yiddish /ɪ/ in Central and South-Eastern dialects. According to the Duden, dünsten derives from dunsten, this is also the general line taken by Pfeifer. So you potentially have either option to work with. However, that still leaves two big leaps: 1) st ⇾ sh (I'm not strong on Yiddish historic or dialectal sounds changes) and 2) socalled "n-Ausfall", or elision of the nasal consonant. This process has occurred in some Germanic languages (particularly English, Dutch and North Germanic) but I am not sure that the time period fits or whether Yiddish is at all concerned. Helrasincke (talk) 15:17, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Though the etymology of this word is sited as Proto-Indo-Iranian, there is no Indo-Iranian form given, not even a redlink. Does anyone know what the PII form would be? 2600:1700:3287:E000:1878:7F15:3AC4:A733 08:26, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Well, it's got a geminate ll and an initial voiceless aspirate, two important signs that it didnt develop regularly from PIE. I would have to assume that this is a loanword from a dialect that didnt shift /l/ > /r/, and the usual explanation for word-initial voiceless aspirates in Sanskrit is w:s-mobile, but Im not sure that can explain every example, since they also occur in words claimed to be Dravidian loans. In any case, we may not be able to reconstruct a Proto-Indo-Iranian form, because from what I understand the /l/ > /r/ shift had already happened by that time. —Soap— 08:53, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/bʰleh₃- posits Proto-Indo-European *bʰl̥h₃rós as the ancestor of Sanskrit फुल्ल (phulla, “flower”), but of course that won't work, as it would actually have given something like *bhrāra, which could have been dissimilated to *bhrāla or *bhlāra, but couldn't possibly have given phulla. Connecting phulla with Ancient Greek φύλλον (phúllon, “leaf”) looks tempting on the surface, but Indo-Europeanists have known for at least the last 150 years that it just isn't possible. —Mahāgaja · talk 10:11, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

I wonder if there's any chance that it's related to proto-Dravidian pū or (less likely) to पुष्प (puṣpa, “flower, blossom”)? I only spent a few minutes looking here ... as I like to say, it's very low-hanging fruit to just look up the word for flower in various languages of India ... but still it's the first thing I thought of, and I do know I've seen at least one example of a Dravidian loanword into Sanskrit gaining word-initial aspiration, though I dont have it close at hand. —Soap— 12:05, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

I've looked long and far and couldn't find any sort of Germanic cognate for this. German Grau gives the colour, and German Grauen gives "horror", not "mistake". No Slavic language (nor Hebrew) uses "gray" metaphorically to mean "mistake" either, so it's very unlikely to be some sort of semantic calque.

This link provides the phrase "נח מיט זיבן גרייזן", and the site also gives "נח מיט זיבן קרייזן", a phrase that is very similar in spelling but different in meaning. Would it be farfetched to say that גרײַז is a back-formation of גרײַזן, which itself was a typo/misspelling/mispronunciation of קרײַזן, and hence the meaning "mistake/error" was derived? Insaneguy1083 (talk) 09:45, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

@Insaneguy1083: How are you getting semantically from "circles" to "mistakes"? If we could get from "gray" to "mistake" semantically (which I agree is pretty unlikely), the ancestor would presumably be Old High German grīs (< Proto-West Germanic *grīs) rather than Old High German grāo (< Proto-West Germanic *grāu). Actually, considering German greis (“old, aged”) carries connotations of senility, perhaps it was substantivized as 'senile person' > 'person prone to make mistakes' > 'mistake'? Still pretty far-fetched, I guess. —Mahāgaja · talk 09:55, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Max Weinreich writes: "For the word grayz (mistake) we have not yet found a more plausible etymology than Zunz’s idea of 1832 about gryˤvθ (mistake). Vahag (talk) 10:18, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

גריעות looks like a feminine plural of something, but I don't know what. Something from ג־ר־ע (compare מִגְרָעָה (miḡrāʿâ, “deficiency”) and גֵּרָעוֹן (gērāʿôn, “deficit”)), perhaps? —Mahāgaja · talk 10:53, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

@Mahagaja I'm not so much going from "circles", but rather to the possibility that someone may have misspelled or mispronounced קרײַזן to sound/read like "groyz", and then that action of making a mistake in itself became the meaning of גרײַזן, that which later became codified as part of regular vocabulary in Yiddish (like how English "oll korrect", which was coined as kind of a joke, became okay). Extremely farfetched, like I mentioned earlier, but I'm just throwing out ideas because German Greis is as much of a dead end as Grau is. In some ways maybe paralleling English where people might say "pulling a XXX", with XXX being the name of an entity who was famous for doing a certain thing. I also have almost no knowledge of Hebrew at all, and I don't know how one would derive "ײַ" from Slavic. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 14:02, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

It probably comes from noise in a re-recording of the word "laurel". I'm not sure if that's the original etymology, though. Orisphera2 (talk) 18:39, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Maybe Greek Γιάννης (Giánnis), whose oblique forms are all Γιάννη (Giánni)? —Mahāgaja · talk 19:23, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Laurel? There are a bunch of variants of the name John/ Johannes/ Yochanan, though, which I instinctively would consider as probable. , Wakuran (talk) 22:19, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

@Wakuran: See w:Yanny or Laurel. —Mahāgaja · talk 06:03, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Yanny is definitely a transliteration of Γιάννη here, written before Edison's invention of the phonograph. The same Yanny is seen even earlier in a German news article. And here it is a Russian female given name, probably also a nickname. Compare also the almost homophonic Afrikaans/Danish/Dutch name Jannie. BTW, a cursory Google search shows that Yanny is more often a surname.  --Lambiam 23:07, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Any ideas? For all I could find, I'm not sure where the word could have come from, and I'm not sure how it would be possible to go semantically from German hübsch (“handsome”) to "considerable". But it's the closest I've got phonologically. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 02:41, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

@Insaneguy1083: I'm pretty sure that a semantic change from 'pretty' to 'fairly, considerably' is attested in other languages. In a language that doesn't distinguish adverbs and adjectives morphologically, it's not a far reach from an adverb 'fairly, considerably' to an adjective 'considerable, sizable'. —Mahāgaja · talk 06:15, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

@Mahagaja: I suppose if we look at it taking the English sense into account then it makes sense. I was more thinking about the "physically attractive" part rather than specifically "pretty". But is it attested in Eastern European forms of Yiddish, or is this an Americanism? The author of the quote in the entry has been in the States for a long time after all, and the quote itself talks about the US. The semantic shift could be a calque from English. The online Verterbukh only gives "considerable" as a definition and doesn't mention any archaic definition of "pretty" or "handsome". Insaneguy1083 (talk) 06:31, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

@Insaneguy1083: It isn't only English, though. German schön also means 'really, pretty ', especially in the collocation ganz schön. For example, in English you can say something is "pretty ugly" without oxymoron; in German, "ganz schön hässlich" is exactly the same. What I wonder is whether Yiddish היפּש (hipsh) is attested as an adverb as well. —Mahāgaja · talk 06:48, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

@Mahagaja The Polish page for היפּש (hipsh) lists both znaczny (adjective) and znacznie (adverb) as its meaning, so I would guess it's both attested as adverb and adjective. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 16:15, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

@Insaneguy1083: Then in my opinion there's nothing standing in the way of saying it's a straightforward cognate of hübsch. The phonology is impeccable and the semantics seem reasonable. —Mahāgaja · talk 16:20, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

@Insaneguy1083: Incidentally, although it isn't in English Wiktionary, German Wiktionary's definition of hübsch includes a sense "of a not insignificant size" with the example "Mit der Zeit hatte sich ein hübsches Sümmchen angesammelt" ("With time, a sizable little sum had accumulated"), which seems to match the Yiddish exactly. The only difference is that in Yiddish, all other senses have (apparently) been lost. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:36, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't know for sure whether the other senses have been lost - I just have yet to find any (possibly archaic) quotations that do use it to mean physically attractive. "sizeable/considerable" does seem to be the dominant meaning of the word in Yiddish, it just appears that the specialization of the word went in different directions with German and Yiddish. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 09:41, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

And English pretty also has the sense "Moderately large; considerable". —Mahāgaja · talk 21:48, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

I am not going to stand in the way but the required hyper-correction from höfisch and the missing polysemy in Yiddish strikes me as unlikely. The evidence from modern German ("eine hübsche Stange Geld") is probably too late and may as well have come from Yiddish by coincidence. The origin of schön too is neither here nor there. 88.128.92.19 11:00, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

The word itself is pretty clear. But in the quotation, where does קאַפּויער (kapoyer) come from? It's spelt phonetically so it can't be Hebrew. But I can't find any Germanic or Slavic cognates either. I suspect the "ויער" component could be cognate to some German(ic) "ohr" but that's all I got. Maybe something to do with קאָפּ (kop) and German Kopf somehow? I mean, the translations tab lists auf dem Kopf as one of the German translations of "upside down". Insaneguy1083 (talk) 03:21, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

It is temptingly close to kopfüber, isn't it? But alas, not close enough for a connection to be plausible. —Mahāgaja · talk 06:27, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

I found this quote from a Forverts article:

די מחברטע האָט דערקלערט, אַז זי האָט, בעצם, געשאַפֿן אַ „קינדער-בוך אויף קאַפּויער‟.

Not sure if this helps at all, but we can see that קאַפּויער is used with אויף. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 06:53, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Hmm, maybe this is mostly thinking aloud, but I thought about אײַער (ayer), as in 'head of yours', but it's a plural or polite form, and it could be dubious from several phonetic and syntactical aspects... Wakuran (talk) 09:41, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Is Kapoyer not related to kapoyres? Kapoyre means also a kind of heathen person (like in jokes also), like the Moslemanic word qafir. See also Aramaic כפורא. Tollef Salemann (talk) 23:23, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Ah, so it's something like "not kosher"... Wakuran (talk) 02:03, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

It is very normal (at least in Eurasia) to call real and mythological creatures after their qualities (like so-called "noa-name"), so Kapoyer can mean some soul-damaged or evil creature. It may be a Slavic calque or some loan from Talmud. I am also not sure if the term volkolak can be allways translated as a usual English werewolf, because it has very different meaning in different areas (Romania, Balkan, Ukraine etc), and maybe also had not the same meaning in all the Jewish shtetels. Tollef Salemann (talk) 08:14, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Although "kapoyer" here clearly refers to the opening scene, not the werewolf/ creature. Wakuran (talk) 10:24, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Hah yeah, my bad, in the quote they use it about the scene. It is adjective/adverb, like Moyshe Kapoy(e)r, with the Germanic ending -er. It means upside-down or backwards, pretty sure it is from Hebrew or Aramaic. Can't find any normal etymology on it, although it is discussed on some forums (like Quora), but it is very weird to derive it from פרץ or Russian кубарем (kubarem) like they do. Tollef Salemann (talk) 10:55, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Also, the reference to the sushi-meser would indicate that it is a fairly modern text, so the connotations of volkolak might be closer to the werewolves of current Western pop culture than traditional mythology... Wakuran (talk) 15:28, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Volkelak in Yiddish is used at least in 1864 tho. Tollef Salemann (talk) 18:48, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

This might be slightly nitpicking at this point, but while the connection to כּפּרות (kapoyres) does seem very plausible, I would've thought Hebrew loanwords would not be spelt phonetically? Or at least it would be spelt with the Hebrew component non-phonetically, since ־ער (-er) is clearly Germanic. I know there are some Hebrew loanwords that are spelt phonetically but I don't know for sure whether this is one of those. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 09:15, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

There are a few Hebrew loanwords that are spelled phonetically, especially when there has been enough semantic drift that the connection to the Hebrew source is no longer recognized. I can't think of an example off the top of my head, but I know I've seen some. That said, I just don't see any way to get semantically from a plural noun meaning "scapegoat chickens" to an adverb meaning "upside down". —Mahāgaja · talk 12:09, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Only way i can imagine is semantic shift from 'כפורא' (heathen) into 'denier' or 'opposing' and so into 'backwards'. Moyshe Kapoyer is what you call a person who doing and saying stuff in a wrong way or order. See also Klein Dictionary כְּפִירָה. Tollef Salemann (talk) 13:16, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Aus/NZ verb: "sool the dogs on someone", to set (or sic) the dogs on them. Possibly from Irish verb siúil, "to walk", which admittedly seems a bit lacking in imperative force, but can be used more forcefully (I think) as in, for instance, the title of the song "siúil a rún" (Go, my love...") Sclameneen (talk) 03:26, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

I have trouble believing that any variety of English word borrow siúil as "sool" and not as "shool". —Mahāgaja · talk 06:28, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Swedish has sula (to chuck, throw), but it might well be unrelated. Stated to be from at least the 70's, but not present in SAOB from 1997, for some reason. Wakuran (talk) 09:38, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

I dimly remember "sool" being used in some Irish play, in that form. 24.108.18.81 16:22, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Susan Butler, The dinkum dictionary : the origins of Australian words, mentions that it was formerly used more broadly, with examples of women sooling soldiery on to go fight in a war, plus a case where an animal "scratches and sools its way back into the match"; she also says it could formerly mean "to run away" or "scarper", and that "'to sool along' to travel at a fast pace and 'to sool off' to disappear at speed". She derives it from British dialectal sowl ("to pull by the ears"), although I wonder whether at least some of the other senses might have a different origin. - -sche (discuss) 17:20, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Clearly a combination of Germanic ־ין (-in) and Slavic ־קע (-ke). I wonder however whether we should start considering it a separate suffix unto itself? I've seen the two suffixes combined together in enough places (e.g. מאַמינקע (maminke)) to feel like it's become codified as its own suffix (cf. Serbo-Croatian -inka). Edit: just found out that Polish -enka exists. Could ־ינקע (-inke) be descended from just that? I mean, we have ־יק (-ik) from Polish -ek and -ik. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 05:00, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

The /n/ that gave us -nik shows reflexes in some western Slavic languages that retain the preceding vowel, so it's possible that both morphemes could be Slavic, and that this could be the origin of -enka and its kin as well. Though that's just a guess. —Soap— 05:05, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

FWIW, diminutive -ke could also be, or be influenced by, Germanic. Indeed, I can find sources which treat -ke as a "convergence" of the Slavic and Germanic suffixes, and also which do treat the 'compound' suffix -inke as a unit, e.g. Gertrud Reershemius, "Yiddish", in Yaron Matras and Jeanette Sakel, Grammatical Borrowing in Cross-Linguistic Perspective (2008), page 249: § 3.4. Diminutives:

Diminutive suffixes -inke, -enyu, -ke, as for example in muminke 'dear/little aunt', tatenyu 'dear/little father' or Avromke 'dear/little Abraham' (here convergence with a Germanic-component suffix -ke) are borrowed from Slavic languages. (see Weinreich 1980: 531)

If there are multiple examples of words with -inke (and especially if there are any where the form with just -in isn't used), it seems reasonable to consider it a suffix. - -sche (discuss) 17:03, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Hate to be making two consecutive posts, but I'm absolutely clueless on this one. It's attested in the Verterbukh as well, and even has a Yiddish-language Wikipedia article. Considered all the possible consonant alternations and vowel lowering, and all the words I've come up with seem way too far for a semantic shift. It also boggles the mind why they didn't simply borrow the Latin/Ancient Greek word like German did, but that's beside the point. If I'm missing something super obvious do let me know. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 05:36, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Hmm, related to German Treff, as a hit/ rhythmic beat, or would that be too semantically far-fetched? I guess there could also be some phonetic/ folk-etymological connection to טראַף (trop). Wakuran (talk) 10:17, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

I wonder if a syllable is a single letter in dotless Hebrew it could be synonym. Treffen is making a point in fencing for example, a score or scratch, a iota, or maybe פתוח and thus פתות, not quite a trifle. 79.197.188.62 15:53, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

{{R:yi:CYED}} says it also means "second stage of learning to read in the traditional Jewish school", which means there's a strong possibility this is a Hebrew or Aramaic loanword, even though it's spelled phonetically. I don't know what word would be the source, though. It's certainly not the normal Hebrew word for "syllable". —Mahāgaja · talk 11:40, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Above probably intended פתו and פתח (or תוהו, Tohuwabohu).

Seeing the sense of punctuation is borrowed from Arabic, there is also taraf that could mean section. 62.214.191.67 13:41, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

See طرف. Wakuran (talk) 15:23, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Do we perhaps have a Hebrew cognate of this? Because otherwise I can't really think of a historically sensical way that this Arabic word could've entered Yiddish, since it's not found in any of the usual suspects (German, Slavic, French, etc.). Insaneguy1083 (talk) 02:20, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

There's a borrowing by Ottoman Turkish, which tends to make its way into Eastern European etymologies fairly often. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:52, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

To be fair we do have פּאַסטראַמע (pastrame) which came from Turkish via Romanian so it's not totally unthinkable... (cf. Romanian taraf, Turkish taraf) Insaneguy1083 (talk) 02:20, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Found in the quotation of מדינה־פֿירער (mdinh-firer). Variation of אַריבער (ariber), variation of דעריבער (deriber), or its own thing entirely? Google Translate gives me German darüber as a cognate, but 1. Wiktionary doesn't have the prefix ער־ (er-); 2. Is it a thing for the initial D (haha drifting jokes etc) to just disappear in dialectal speech? Also, on the topic of דעריבער (deriber) - did it ever have the meaning of "above it" like darüber does, or did it specialize and lose that meaning very quickly? Insaneguy1083 (talk) 10:07, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

@Insaneguy1083: The quote is from ; the first word in the sentence is דעריבער (deriber) with an initial ד. It's just a copy-and-paste error at מדינה־פֿירער (mdinh-firer), which I'll fix right now. —Mahāgaja · talk 10:59, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

The shape and distribution of dialectal Finnish elleskapi (“mischief”) (variants: elleskaapi, elleskappi, elleskaappi, elleskammi, elleskami) suggests borrowing from (Norrbotten/Västerbotten?) Swedish, but I can't found a suitable etymon (something like *(ä/e)llskap). I can't rule out a pseudo-Swedishism from elki/elje, although that would seem unlikely. Any ideas? — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 20:42, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

A likely guess, jävelskap. Wakuran (talk) 22:14, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Elakskap? Tollef Salemann (talk) 23:07, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Well, the most natural native construction is elakhet, so it sounds a bit strained. Wakuran (talk) 02:02, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

I know, but i heard it from a northern Swedish person, so may be it is more common to use this word up there instead of elakhet. I reckon, you know better. Tollef Salemann (talk) 08:19, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Alright. I'm not too familiar with Northern Swedish varieties, although I think that the stress of -lak- would rather have produced something like *lakki(s)kaapi. Anyway, Finnish knowledge of Swedish generally seems rather passive and imprecise to me, so it's not improbable there might have been a bit of mangling and folk etymologies involved. Wakuran (talk) 10:18, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, it's entirely possible that both of those are sources as well as folk-etymological changes incurred by the terms I mentioned in my original post. — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 11:30, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't hear no stress on -lak- by some reason, so am not sure what you mean. Must try ask some Finns what they hear there when Swedes say it. Stresses across Sweden and Finland may differ depend on region. Tollef Salemann (talk) 14:58, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

I think I stress the syllable in my sloppy Stockholm accent, but I might be over-analyzing things... Wakuran (talk) 15:30, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

I feel really stupid with this one because it's CLEARLY of Latin origin, yet I could not for the love of me find any Latin signatio, German Signation, Polish signacja, Russian сигнация (signacija) or anything of the sort. There's English signation, but even the entry says that it is obsolete. And even if Latin signatio does exist, I don't find it very plausible that Yiddish would borrow directly from Latin without any intermediate. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 09:48, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Do we know thw stress? /sɪɡnat͡sjə/ is similar to English signature /ˈsɪɡnət͡ʃə/. English is occasionally a donor (דזשינס (dzhins), גרייפּפֿרוט (greypfrut), הײַסקול (hayskul)), and a signature characteristic of banknotes is that they carry the signature of the issuing bank's cashier or president.  --Lambiam 10:28, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

@Insaneguy1083, Lambiam:: If you look up סיגנאַציע (signatsye) in {{R:yi:CYED}}, it points you to אַסיגנאַציע (asignatsye), so it seems to be a Yiddish-internal aphesis. Russian ассигна́ция (assignácija) has a historical sense that fits perfectly with the Yiddish. —Mahāgaja · talk 10:44, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

We ought to have an entry for אַסיגנאַציע, which is not only historically attested in that sense (e.g. here), but also seen with an apparently different sense in the compound געזונט-אַסיגנאַציע (gezunt-asignatsye) here.  --Lambiam 11:47, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

So does אַסיגנאַציע (asignatsye) have the same meaning as סיגנאַציע (signatsye) by itself? Should they be considered variants of each other (or maybe the aphetic form a variant of the original)? It also appears that געזונט־אַסיגנאַציע (gezunt-asignatsye) means "universal healthcare", so I can add that later. Edit: just healthcare. Not universal. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 10:03, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

אַסיגנאַציע seems to mean the same thing; It also looks like it's more frequent in use, although both are rare enough online that it might not be representative of the actual usage. Thadh (talk) 10:35, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Are you certain that the direction of borrowing wasn't the other way around? Nicodene (talk) 10:46, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Added the stress. Thadh (talk) 10:28, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

RFV of the etymology. Can it be confirmed that the first element of the compound is the obsolete dialectal verb batten (“to be useful”)? —Mahāgaja · talk 12:21, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Pretty unlikely. There's a lot of speculation in old 19th/early 20th century sources but an up-to-date suggestion for the etymon seems to be the personal name Batto < *badwō (“war”): "'Bettenberg' wird im Lorscher Codex 788 erstmals erwähnt, 1375 heißt es Battenberg. Der Name bedeutet Heim des Batto, der Ortsname entsteht über die Genitivbildung Bettin" from p. 223. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 11:42, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

The etyms there trace Kunigami and Okinawan まーすん (māsun) to Proto-Ryukyuan *mawari (also for Miyako まーㇲ゙さまーㇲ゙ (māzsāmaz), Yaeyama まーらしぃん (mārasïn)), in turn sourcing the Proto-Ryukyuan from Proto-Japonic *mar- (“to die”), and deriving Hachijō Japanese まるぶ (marubu) from that as well.

Various issues here.

• Proto-Ryukyuan

There is no known mechanism for producing Proto-Ryukyuan mawar- from Proto-Japonic mar-. Japonic word formation happens via compounding and suffixation primarily. Infixes don't really happen (can't think of any examples at all at the moment).

• Proto-Japonic

I am not aware of any Proto-Japonic verb root *mar- meaning "to die". Hachijō marubu is cognate with mainland 転ぶ (marubu), an apophonic form of 転ぶ (marobu) meaning "to fall, to tumble, to fall over", with a semantic shift of "to fall" → "to die", as indeed we see in certain contexts in English even, where to fall is used to mean to die. In turn, Japanese marobu appears to be from noun 麻呂・麿・丸 (maro, “ball, round thing”) + suffix ぶ (-bu, “to seem like, to behave like, to become like”). The only Japanese verb with root form mar- is 放る (maru, “to excrete bodily waste”, transitive; meaning includes urination and defecation, sometimes even flatulation).

• Ryukyuan roots

Poking around on JLect, their entry for まーすん traces that to cognacy with Japanese 回る (mawaru, “to turn”, intransitive) and/or 回す (mawasu, “to turn”, transitive), with no mention of any root mar-.

Is our etymology, tied to Proto-Ryukyuan *mawari and Proto-Japonic *mar-, sourced from any publications? If so, do those authors address these issues above in any way? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 22:34, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Just realized I'd forgotten about the related discussion from a couple years back at Talk:まるぶ, for those interested. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 22:39, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

@Kwékwlos; he's the one who did this entry in the first place.

What is the Proto-Japonic form for OJ maro₂ and EOJ maru, modern Japanesee 丸 (maru), along with PR *maro? Next, searching on Okinawa-go Jiten Data Shuu, this verb had an irregular conjugation (see here; also JLect entry for maasun), but has the same pitch accent as maas(h)un. In my local copy of Sakihara (2006) p. 107, it mentions maa・sun 'to die; pass away; perish; expire.', but not *maasun 'to spin' (transitive). In the 久留米 (Kurume) section of the Etymology Scriptorium I rejected Vovin's PJ *wasay (“early rice”) and Pre-PJ *wasar being borrowed into Korean; the opposite hypothesis is preferred. So therefore there is no PJ for Okinawan maasun. Spin in index p. 296 only has maain and miguin, not transitive but are equivalents to 回る (mawaru, “to spin”, intransitive) and 巡る (meguru, “to spin”, intransitive). PJ form for meguru is *maynkuru (whence OJ me₂guru); possibly from *目繰る (me-guru, “spin one's eyes”); the earliest senses excluding Heian period Shoki glosses (glossed as 行道 (メクル, meGuru) and Saibara texts (appears from at least Heian period) are form a circle and walk around. Eyes might be round but I don't know how this is. Regardless, this is the PJ form. The transitive is 巡らす (megur-asu).

Conclusion:

There is no Proto-Japonic for PR *m(a/V)CV- (“to die”). We have to analyze the cognates mentioned in the JLect entry in order to precisely reconstruct a PR form. Wish that the Ryukyu-go Onsei Database reopened earlier than 2023 (because I'm too lazy to google book snippet view search the Ryukyuan terms; also they are renovating and including more Ryukyuan dialects).

But please continue the discussion. Chuterix (talk) 01:37, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

(this is my worst day ever for etymologies, especially like this...) Chuterix (talk) 01:41, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Since we cannot say with any certainty how or if Okinawan maasun "to die" might be related to maasun "to turn something" and/or maain "to turn" (intransitive), we cannot say with any certainty that there is no reconstructable Proto-Japonic for this term. All we know at this point is that we don't know.

As the Okinawago jiten dēta-shū entry for マーシュン says (topmost here at Jlect):

回す。回転させる。また,次から次へ回す。ただしmaasjuN（死ぬ）の語感をさけるため,migurasjuNを多く使う。

In other words, maasun "to turn something" was avoided in favor of migurasun, due to the homophony with maasun "to die".

Further research is needed to determine whether this overlap represents a change in sense, or an accidental phonological similarity caused by unrelated terms shifting into homophonous forms.

All that said, it does sound like we need to amend our entries at まーすん. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:23, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Update: What about some dead conjugation of unattested *mawar-as-. I do not have time at the noment to look at other Ryukyuan cogs ATM. Chuterix (talk) 22:33, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

@Eirikr, Kwékwlos, 荒巻モロゾフ:

This reconstruction is totally unsourced. I've made this user page for all possible Ryukyuan cognates that I can find. Hachijo marub- is totally unrelated; Eirikr is right (it suggests pJ *maro(mp-)) that it must have been a form of marob-.

The internal peculiarities: The Oshima dialect Yamatohama appears like pR *mawari-si, which seems to tie in with 回る (mawaru, “to go around, to turn”). The same goes for the Tokunoshima dialect. Meanwhile, in Okinoerabu, the i has been completely lost (but soon I may add irrealis conjugations to give more internal peculiarities). In Yoron Higashi-ku dialect, there's /moojuN/ homophonous with 'to turn', and the i for /moisjuN/ is still there. Thus, it may be certain that the Amami forms goes back to *mawar(i)(si). The Yonaguni form also preserves the high vowel. The Okinawan terms seem to have simplified to *mawa for unknown reason (borrowing?). In Miyako, there is a limited distribution, in Hirara (retrieved from Nevsky's dictionary), it seems to be from *mawari-sam-ar-i, but it is not completely clear, as the Nakachi form lost the z (may phonetically be ), and Nakachi does not have the *-sam-ar-i suffix. Tarama might have derived straight from *mawar-, the same way the archaic Yoron term has. The Nuclear-Yaeyama terms can be derived straight from *mawar-as-, as opposed to what dictionaries like Ishigaki and Hatoma dictionaries say derive from まかる (makaru, “to pass (away)”).

Thus, Kwékwlos's reconstruction may actually be correct, minus the fact that every verb stem he creates has the infinitive *-i, but it is certainly an innovation in Ryukyuan, and cannot go back to Proto-Japonic.

The JLect entry mentioned also echoes my reconstruction of *mawar(i)(si), although I can account for the peculiarities just explained. Chuterix (talk) 23:49, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

One surface analysis could connect it to 参る (mairu, “to go”, humble), but the accentual register is all wrong (*mawa(ri)(si) is tone class A, which corresponds to Japanese high register, but mairu is the low register). And this does not explain the Amami forms in this impossible case. Chuterix (talk) 23:53, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Where did the -n go? I'd like to suggest conflation with French porcelet but that might be a bit farfetched... Insaneguy1083 (talk) 04:50, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

All I can think is that the -n was reinterpreted as the adjectival ending (compare the adjective פּאָרצעלײַען (portselayen, “made of porcelain”)) and thus removed by back-formation. But that's pure speculation. —Mahāgaja · talk 10:44, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

The Persian entry for دین (deyn, "loan, debt") suggests Ancient Greek δάνειον, but the Arabic entry does not mention this. The shorter δάνος could also mean 'loan, debt'... Exarchus (talk) 22:48, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

@Exarchus: The way Profes.I. (talk • contribs) formulated the Arabic دين, it makes sense how specific “loan” and “obligation” senses arose from Arabic, and Semitic, senses of socially enforced legal conduct, and we are sufficiently warned that there are “multiple layers of phono-semantic matching” between languages. You might opine that this does not absolve us from specifically mentioning the specific layer of Ancient Greek δάνειον (dáneion), as influence is still assumed in this century; dayn and hence some denominative verb would be “not identical” in root with that of دَيَّان (dayyān, “judge”) and دِين (dīn, “religion”) according to Leicht, Reimund (2009) “The Qurʾanic Commandment Of Writing Down Loan Agreements (Q 2:282)—Perspectives Of A Comparison With Rabbinical Law”, in Angelika Neuwirth, Nicolai Sinai, and Michael Marx, editors, The Qurʾān in Context (Texts and Studies on the Qurʾān; 6)‎, Leiden: Brill, →ISBN, page 596 of 593–614.

But these people restricting Arabic literature to the Qurʾān however, in this paucity of corpus, necessarily see more aporiai than the actual language had, nor do they even understand what religion even is—sets of tenets to manipulate behaviour by arguing with them and quarantine violators from the group it governs, like law. In this fashion one may come to the conclusion of the manifestly rightly forgotten Italian jurist Evaristo Carusi that actually Muḥammad or Islam put forward “nothing new, certainly in particular in the field of law”, and instead the religion just transcoded Roman or Byzantine law, which is recognized as untenable view by Pritsch, Erich (1925) Zeitschrift der Savigny-Stiftung für Rechtsgeschichte: Romanistische Abteilung‎, volume 47, →DOI, as well as impossible his etymologies دَيْن (dayn) = δάνειον, مُفْلِس (muflis) = fallito, and وَارِث (wāriṯ) = hērēs. The etymology in question was also criticized by Carlo Alfonso Nallino, who is much more a genius, in “GLI STUDI DI E. CARUSI SUI DIRITTI ORIENTALI”, in Rivista degli studi orientali‎, volume 9, 1921, pages 152–153 of 55–182, exposing even more janky comparisons.

It is then likely that this suggestion slopped over into Iranian works on language from some crackpot book, and fittingly this derivation of dayn from δάνειον on the Persian page was added by Irman. Fay Freak (talk) 03:15, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Rhinozeta is the type genus of the protist family Rhinozetidae. The prefix Rhino recalls the rhinoceros in which this organism lives. But what does zeta mean? that we also find in the species Elephantophilus zeta (family of Polydiniellidae). Here, in my opinion, Zeta has nothing to do with the last letter of the Greek alphabet but would have the meaning "to seek" in one case "I am looking for rhinoceros (to live there)" in the other "I am looking for elephants (for the same thing). What is your opinion? Thanks. Gerardgiraud (talk) 09:34, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Not an answer to your question, just wanting to point out that zeta is the sixth letter of the Greek alphabet, not the last. —Mahāgaja · talk 14:19, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't think there's another possibility than a derivation from (the root of) ζητέω. I suppose the suffix is Latin -idus. Exarchus (talk) 14:53, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Using Greek letters in taxonomic names isn't that uncommon, so it can't be categorically ruled out. I would also mention that Ancient Greek ῥῑνός (rhīnós) in Ancient Greek ῥινόκερως (rhinókerōs) means "of the nose", as in "nose-horned", though the association of the organism with the rhinoceros makes that reading less likely. Chuck Entz (talk) 15:22, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

English names of Greek letters are common in virology, eg, Dyozetapapillomavirus 1. DCDuring (talk) 02:53, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

@Gerardgiraud: A paper in this volume describes Elephantophilus zeta as characterised by a "Z-shaped macronucleus", so apparently it is in fact the letter that's intended. Rhinozeta may have been named by analogy—I had a look at the paper describing the species and genus, and it doesn't explain the name specifically but does reference Elephantophilus zeta. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 17:51, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Great research. Good catch. DCDuring (talk) 02:55, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks you all. Gerardgiraud (talk) 09:00, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

It appears to be a borrowed word, but I’m not sure which language it was borrowed from. Or perhaps it’s an Albanian word derived from pa meaning "without" (widely used to form Albanian words) and di meaning "to know", and related to padije (“not-knowing”), but that doesn’t seem to make sense. Thanks in advanceǃ FierakuiVërtet (talk) 17:35, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

It's from Slavic it seems. Catonif (talk) 09:07, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

I saw a post online that claimed the feminine form of דאָקטער (dokter) to be דאָקטערשע (doktershe), which is obviously from Russian докторша (doktorša). Should it be added here as דאָקטערשע (doktershe) or דאָקטאָרשע (doktorshe), or both? Insaneguy1083 (talk) 18:02, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Both are used on the Internets, so may add one of them as an alternative form of one other? Tollef Salemann (talk) 22:20, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

So Yiddish wouldn't use the -in feminine ending like German? Just wondering... Wakuran (talk) 23:46, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

It does; a cursory search on Google found the phrases מיליטער־דאָקטאָרין (militer-doktorin) and אויגן־דאָקטערין (oygn-dokterin). Both from Forverts no less. So I suppose Yiddish has four different ways to describe female doctors. Update: I also found דאָקטאָרקע (doktorke) and דאָקטערקע (dokterke). So that's six. Can someone who knows how to work with templates add an "f3" field for yi-noun? Insaneguy1083 (talk) 01:30, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

A lot of evidence suggesting this is probably cognate to German Woge, but are there other cases of a g >> /χ/ shift in Yiddish? Also, in the prefix of צעפֿאָכען (tsefokhen), is the prefix ze- being used here? Insaneguy1083 (talk) 04:29, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm unaware of any case of Yiddish /χ/ coming from MHG g, and also any case of Yiddish /f/ coming from MHG w. Also, the two words don't mean the same thing; the Yiddish word is a wave of the hand, and the German word is a wave in the water. {{R:yi:CYED}} doesn't list the noun פֿאָך (fokh), but it does have the verb פֿאָכען (fokhen), פֿאָכן (fokhn), which is more likely to be cognate with German fachen. —Mahāgaja · talk 07:08, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

So would that then make פֿאָך (fokh) and פֿאַך (fakh) doublets, or would פֿאָך (fokh) just be a deverbal of פֿאָכען (fokhen)? Insaneguy1083 (talk) 08:46, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

@Insaneguy1083: If the hypothesis and the stated etymology of fachen are right, they're not doublets. פֿאָך (fokh) is deverbal from פֿאָכן (fokhn), from Latin focō, while פֿאַך (fakh) is a native Germanic word. —Mahāgaja · talk 09:08, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

And yes, the MHG prefix ze- (German zer-) has become צע־ in Yiddish. —Mahāgaja · talk 07:13, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

There seems to be a lot of Yiddish stuff lately, so I thought I'd join in. I was pondering the origin of the name Shifrin, which wikipedia says is a metronymic, and wondering if the given name in question is some variation of שאַפיר (sapphire). It seems that the middle consonant is pronounced f in Yiddish, though not in Hebrew. Or it could be from שיפר, "to improve". Any comments? 24.108.18.81 22:29, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

(Notifying Eirikr, TAKASUGI Shinji, Atitarev, Fish bowl, Poketalker, Cnilep, Marlin Setia1, Huhu9001, 荒巻モロゾフ, 片割れ靴下, Onionbar, Shen233, Alves9, Cpt.Guapo, Sartma, Lugria, LittleWhole, Kwékwlos, Mellohi!): https://www.city.higashikurume.lg.jp/_res/projects/default_project/_page_/001/001/891/26.pdf

One says it's lback yees/. Chuterix (talk) 23:04, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

black eyes* Chuterix (talk) 23:05, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

I guess Japanese 黒目 (kuro(i)me) sounds fairly similar, but the kanji are completely different, so I's venture a guess that it's rather a dad pun than a likely etymology. Wakuran (talk) 00:31, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Hmmm, my Japanese is quite limited, but I saw that the form 久留目 apparently was historically attested. Then, attempting Google Translate, it seems that neither the given sorce, nor Japanese Wikipedia actually proposes the "black eye(s)" theory. (Japanese is often ambiguous concerning singular or plural.) Wakuran (talk) 00:43, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

@Wakuran 黒 is used in compounds; e.g. MYS.2.87, line 3:

吾黒髪爾

WA-GA KURO₁-KAMI₁ ni

...our black hair...

(Notifying Eirikr, TAKASUGI Shinji, Atitarev, Fish bowl, Poketalker, Cnilep, Marlin Setia1, Huhu9001, 荒巻モロゾフ, 片割れ靴下, Onionbar, Shen233, Alves9, Cpt.Guapo, Sartma, Lugria, LittleWhole, Kwékwlos, Mellohi!): Any examples of o raising to u besides Eastern OJ dialects?

Anyhow, otherwise why are place names spelled in the most random on'yomi ever (which suspects ateji usage; c.f. 奈良 (Nara, literally “flat”))? Chuterix (talk) 01:00, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Various things to respond to.

• Who says "it's black eyes"? The JA WP article's description of the name has nothing to say about "black eyes". The linked article explicitly says it's not "black eyes".
• The JA WP lists the following theories about the name's derivation.

• Government official Kishi no Kimitada recorded in 944 that locals worshipped a kami named 玖留目神 (Kurume-gami), from which the place name might derive.
• A guild of weavers immigrated from the continent in ancient times and settled in the area, such that the name might be a shift from 呉部 (Kuri-be) clan", also riffing off of 繰り (kuri, “spinning”, as in textiles)], 呉姫 (Kure-hime, “Chinese / continental princess”), 呉女 (Kure-me, “Chinese / continental woman”), 繰女 (Kuri-me, “spinning woman”).
• w:Emperor Yōmei's son Prince Kume's name might be the source. Due to the Silla conquest of the Korean peninsula, Prince Kume moved to w:Tsukushi Province and died there in 603 in what became the Kume district of w:Shima, Fukuoka.
• The w:Chikugo River meanders substantially through the area, so the name might be a shift from verb 転めく (kurumeku, “to spin, to revolve; to be dizzy, to feel like one's eyes are spinning; to startle and rush about noisily”).

I cannot figure how the prince's name of Kume would gain that medial -ru-, so subjectively, I feel like the kami name seems most likely, but if we can find any more textual evidence for the variations on the clan name, that also looks to be a possibility. The verb origin is an interesting idea, but I would go with verb 包む (kurumu, “to wrap up, to wrap around”), or more likely even its derivative 包める (kurumeru), from the way the river wraps around parts of the town -- also, phonologically, that final -ku in the verb 転めく (kurumeku) wouldn't just vanish: any noun derivation would be kurumeki, not kurume.

• About names and kanji spellings, remember that w:man'yōgana style spellings often use kanji purely for their phonetic values. See also 四六四九・4649 (yoroshiku, literally “four six four nine”), or 夜露死苦 (yoroshiku, literally “night dew death suffering”), used phonetically to spell よろしく (yoroshiku, adverbial form of yoroshii, formal / polite word for "good").
• About 奈良 (Nara) in particular, despite what the Wikipedia article concludes at w:Nara_(city)#Etymology, the presence of a final -ki or -ku element in the oldest textual evidence points strongly towards a Koreanic source, where final -k was a locative suffix (see Appendix:Middle_Korean_h-final_nouns). Alternatively, this might be Baekje-derived ki in reference to "a walled settlement; a fortress" (see 城#Japanese:_ki). The refutations by Kusahara mentioned at Wikipedia can be set aside by noting that the existence of other places named Nara (or variations thereof) really does nothing substantial to refute a possible Koreanic origin for the name of the capital city -- these other places may have been named based on Japonic terms, or Ainic (Batchelor records a term narai meaning "ditch" here, which as a borrowed place name might refer to a defensive structure), or some other substrate. Moreover, a derivation solely from nara meaning "flat" only works by ignoring the -ku / -ki ending of the name, as recorded in the oldest texts.

I hope that covers the bases.  :) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:04, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

@Eirikr Regarding 奈良 (Nara): What explains the existance of 新羅 (Shiragi) then? It's certainly derived as a compound of a borrowed term Silla + 城 (ki, “castle”). What about 宮城 (Miyagi) where it literally means "castle of palace"?

I'd support more of the Baekje kwi etymology, but the Korean similarity is definitely interesting. Chuterix (talk) 23:23, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Did you have a look at 新羅#Etymology? That goes into extensive detail.

宮城 (Miyagi), as you note, is analyzable as "palace fortress".

The difference between these two terms and 奈良 (Nara) is that we have textual evidence of varied spellings with readings ending in ki, but also ku and possibly even hints of a nasal /ŋ/ (from the 良 spelling for the second syllable; Middle Chinese readings have an /ŋ/ final). This suggests, albeit inconclusively, that this might be a different morpheme than Baekje-derived 城 (ki, “fortress; walled settlement”). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:32, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

@Eirikr: "Did you have a look at "siragwi"? That goes into extensive detail." Yes; I believe this is the Baekje word kwi 'fortress'.

Of course this is what 宮城 (Miyagi) literally means. That's why I said that.

"良 has word-final nasal reconstructed in MC; it's probably a different morpheme." This might be phonographically adapted into Old Japanese. Second, 那楽/寧楽 could've been pronounced as anything /narakV/, not just naraku (perhaps a bad transcription of *narakwi?).

Whatever this argument is about 奈良 (Nara), I believe the final -kV could be Baekje 城 kwi. The name of Nara came when the Japanese went to modern day Kansai region, so I don't know how this would be borrowed from Korean. Even 宮城 (Miyagi) is way in Eastern Japan, so the -gi element was probably borrowed from Western Old Japanese with rendaku voicing.

Anyways this exists to discuss the etymology of 久留米 (Kurume), a city in Kyushu and doesn't have a 城 kwi element of any kind (kwi cannot go from *kur(V); that's nonsense and we don't have exact form of Pre-Proto-Japonic let alone discussing place names; I reject PJ *wasay (“early rice”) existed all because "it doesn't exist in Ryukyuan" and it's possibly a borrowing; what about 海 (wata, “ocean”, obsolete, but persists in 海神 (watatsumi, “sea god”))?).

Anyways sorry I thought that the "black eyes" etym was proposed in the PDF, but I think it's rejected by everyone. Chuterix (talk) 01:15, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Now, gotten go argue about Okinawan まーすん (maasun, “to die”). Chuterix (talk) 01:18, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Various things to respond to. First, re: Nara:

• "This might be phonographically adapted into Old Japanese."

It is not at all clear what you mean by this.

Historically, this was first recorded as rau, and was used as w:man'yōgana for the syllable ra. We know from an analysis of Middle Chinese pronunciations and patterns of borrowing into early Japanese that Middle Chinese nasal final /ŋ/ reflects as Japanese /u/. The question is whether this might have still been a nasal final before we get Japanese sources that clearly indicate a reading of rau -- which is relevant for the time around the settlement and naming of the city of Nara.

• "Second, 那楽/寧楽 could've been pronounced as anything /narakV/, not just naraku"

I have no idea where you get this contention. The second character 楽 is clearly recorded as having the older goon reading of raku (also, but not all that relevant here, geu and gaku, from different Chinese pronunciations). This is in keeping with the Middle Chinese reconstructed pronunciation of /lɑk̚/, and with the pattern in Japanese of using the most neutral vowel value for borrowed terms with consonant codas -- which is u or sometimes i, not "anything".

The Japanese u is more of a front vowel, realized as something like /ʉ/ or /ɨ/ and thus closer to /i/ that the canonical /u/ sound. The existence of historical spelling 平城 suggests that someone at some point considered the final sound in the name of the city as possibly indicating the Baekji-derived term 城 (ki). Whether this is evidence of derivation, or an allusion, we cannot tell with certainty. By way of counter-evidence, the final Japanese vowel in 新羅 (Shiragi) and 宮城 (Miyagi) is only ever i, never u.

• "The name of Nara came when the Japanese went to modern day Kansai region, so I don't know how this would be borrowed from Korean."

People from the Yamato polity were already living in the area for quite some time prior to the founding of Nara. See also w:Capital_of_Japan#List_of_capitals: the historical ones are mostly right around that same region. The Yamato court had a habit of changing the location of the court with every new ruler, but they usually didn't go very far.

Also, as has been documented and as I mentioned over at w:Talk:Nara_(city)#Etymology_of_the_name, w:Empress Genmei, who ordered the move and who may have been the one to propose the name, may well have spoken some form of Old Korean -- considering regional politics at the time, and how much support Empress Genmei's grandmother w:Empress Kōgyoku had given to the Baekje nobility, it was probably the Baekje variant.

Re: the final -gi element in Miyagi, we do have historical records for the term Shiragi that clarify that the final element was also realized as -ki. See also the note at the beginning of the NKD entry here at Kotobank.

Re: wasa / wase and Vovin, and about maasun, I'll respond in your separate threads about those.

Re: Kurume, it appears the initial issue may be resolved, so that's good. 😄 ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:39, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

There's no sources on the page so I thought I'd ask, are we sure 𐭭𐭥𐭪𐭩 (nwky)/ 𐫗𐫇𐫃 (nwg) were pronounced as nōg in middle persian? It just seems very unlikely. According to the etymologies it was "nava" in old Persian and became "nōg" in MP then "naw" in new persian and "naw/now/nav" in modern Dari/Iranian Persian/Tajik. Since final -ag was so common in middle persian, how do we know it wasn't pronounced nawag? Especially since the loss of final -ag was a very widespread change from MP to NP. "nava" -> "nawag" -> "naw" seems more plausible. Especially since we know it was pronounced "naw" in classical modern persian based on borrowings, and what we know about Classical phonology in relation to the modern dialects.

So is there any source that it was pronounced nōg in MP?? I tried searching myself but didn't find anything. سَمِیر | sameer (talk) 03:50, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

@Sameerhameedy: MacKenzie's Concise Pahlavi Dictionary gives /nōg⁠/, as do the other sources on MP I could consult. Manichean script preserves the pronunciation of MP precisely and has 𐫗𐫇𐫃 (nwg). I guess it just developed irregularly; the only other MP word ending in /-ōg⁠/ that survived seems to be /sōg/ which became سو (sō), so /nō/ might have been expected.--Saranamd (talk) 06:48, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Are there any attested examples of this being used as a verb? I tried to look up אַדורכסט (adurkhst) and got nothing. Instead I found cases of אַדורכן (adurkhn) being used essentially the same way as אַדורך (adurkh). Insaneguy1083 (talk) 06:48, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

This is an issue for WT:RFV, I'd say. —Mahāgaja · talk 06:50, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

(تَ کْ) The etymology of Persian تکیه is not listed on its corresponding Wiktionary page. Looking through a 2001 edition of Moin's Persian dictionary that I personally own, the word is listed as both a verbal noun and common noun of Arabic origin. It's specifically listed as being equivalent to the Arabic تکیة.

I think this should be enough to list the etymology, but of course, if someone can back me up on this claim, please do.

Citation: "تکیه." Moin Encyclopedic Dictionary. Moin Encyclopedic Dictionary. 2001. 19 July 2023. 2601:280:C500:8650:6946:1C8E:3A9E:D27C 08:34, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Our entry for Arabic تَكِيَّة (takiyya) says it's borrowed (via Ottoman Turkish تكیه (tekye)) from Persian تکیه (takye), so the borrowing is in the other direction and the etymology of the Persian word is still unrecorded here. —Mahāgaja · talk 09:01, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Yea, because you can figure from the narrow particular meanings, and their historical circumstances, that the Arabic and Ottoman are from the Persian, and while it is also formally difficult to see native origin in the Arabic, Persian has ta- prefix, as in تگلتو (tagaltū), ترازو (tarāzū), تَنُّورَة (tannūra), ثَرِيد (ṯarīd) (?, sometimes these word beginnings arise for other reasons, as in تذرو (taḏarv)). Fay Freak (talk) 08:29, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

And yet most sources consider this an Arabic word. See for example the Encyclopaedia of Islam. Vahag (talk) 09:36, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

You are nice, @Vahagn Petrosyan, but while relation to the root و ك ء (w-k-ʔ) appears superficially plausible from an external perspective, there are still formal problems of derivation, not least the existence of the term itself within Arabic, unless in a medieval dialect. Possible a pseudo-Arabism formed in Persian by mixed inspiration. Fay Freak (talk) 09:58, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Furgasonia is the type genus of the protist family Furgasoniidae. Not my faintest idea of its etymology. Any clue? Gerardgiraud (talk) 14:46, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

My guess is some biologist named Furgason, a rare alternative spelling of Ferguson. —Mahāgaja · talk 16:33, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

After googling around, I'm finding a professor of zoology at UCLA in the early to mid 20th century by the name of W. H. Furgason, who seems to have worked on protists, so it's probably him. —Mahāgaja · talk 16:42, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Just found this: Waldo Hamlet Furgason, 1902–1975. —Mahāgaja · talk 16:44, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

In fact he was specifically a ciliate specialist so it's almost certainly him. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 16:48, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

It looks like you're right, it's probably Waldo Hamlet Furgason. Thanks for the help. Gerardgiraud (talk) 06:18, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Why does nobody name their sons Waldo Hamlet anymore? —Mahāgaja · talk 07:36, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

What's the ety? It's been changed and challenged various times over the years, e.g. from cumba (“cavity”) (which we currently have only in a different sense) to tumbas here, τύμβος (túmbos, “swell”) then added here, changed to "tomb" here, challenged here where the edit summary mentions yet another possibility given by Dictionary.com. - -sche (discuss) 18:51, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

I tidied it up a bit on the basis of the Online Etymology Dictionary, but it's still speculative. —Mahāgaja · talk 19:56, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

@Mahagaja: Your etymology is also what's stated in the FEW so it seems the most plausible to me. It might be worth adding a note about κύμβη (kúmbē) since various sources (including the OED) mention it as an option, though it seems rather tenuous. The OED adds that catacumbas seems to have been indeclinable in living Late Latin, suggesting to them either a direct borrowing from Greek or a clipping from Ad Catacumbas, though I'm not sure that narrows it down. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 21:22, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Heard this in a video of a Poylish speaker. The full sentence was "maan tate redt yiddish, nur maysnz yiddish", according to the Yiddish subtitles. The rest of the words in the sentence are pretty clear, but what could "maysnz" correlate to? Could this be cognate to German meistens I wonder? The video is the Wikitongues Suri speaking Yiddish video, around 0:57. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 03:03, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

@Insaneguy1083: {{R:yi:CYED}} does list מײַסטנס (maystns) as an alternative form of מיינסטנס (meynstns, “mostly, most of the time”), so it seems likely. —Mahāgaja · talk 11:17, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

This article appears to use מיינסטנס (meynstns) in a different sense though - as a plural noun. What could this be about? Google Translate says it means "immigrants" here, but I've not found any German cognate that could mean something similar. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 01:49, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. The passage says נײַע עולים מיינסטנס פֿון מזרח־אייראָפּע ― naye oylim meynstns fun mizrekh-eyrope ― new immigrants (to Israel) mostly from Eastern Europe. —Mahāgaja · talk 07:10, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Alright, my mistake. Google Translate seems to have just entirely left out מיינסטנס (meynstns). Insaneguy1083 (talk) 23:31, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

(this is the worst day ever for me to do etymologies...)

The Old Japanese (and Modern Japanese) term 早稲 (wase, wasa-, “early rice”), can be reconstructed as pre-OJ *wasai, but not a Proto-Japonic form. Why am I saying this? Because there are no Ryukyuan cognates. I've already wrecked Okinawan まーすん (māsun, “to die”) and Japanese 久留米 (Kurume, a city in Kyushu; Fukuoka prefecture) with this theory, so I figured I would move this to a separate topic (所 (tokoro, “place”), I'm looking at you).

So basically I reject Vovin's theory that this is a Proto-Japonic word. See also Wiktionary talk:About Proto-Japonic. Anyways I GTG. またね。 Chuterix (talk) 01:47, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

I think the assumption is invalid, though, since it's not unlikely the Ryukyuan cognate would have been lost. I've seen several Proto-Germanic listings on Wiktionary, that only seem to be attested in one of the three daughter families. Wakuran (talk) 09:50, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Those single witness reconstructions are sent to WT:RfD unless external comparison admits additional evidence in the superfamily. Proto-Japanese has no superfamily, so this looks like mechanical, internal reconstruction. The external comparison with Austronesian (Robbeets) in a Transeurasian framework has been removed in reaction to another comparison with Indo-Iranian (Miyano) being deemed nonsense, twice.

The Transeurasian network looks rather plausible in the cartography of origin myths (d'Hui et al., 2023, “Little Statisticians in the Forest of Tales”, in: Fabula 64, 2023) a-pro-pos seeds.

The Korean comparison (Vovin) is supported by Archaeology: These crops were transmitted to the Korean Peninsula by the Early Bronze Age (3300–2800 BP) and from there to Japan after 3000 BP (Fig. 2b). (Robbeets et al., 2021, “Triangulation supports agricultural spread of the Transeurasian languages”, Nature 599).

This is a hot topic. It needn't be hurried. There's no place for NIH syndrome. It isn't very different from saying that Old English moru (“wild carrot”) and Ru. морков (morkov) are possibly of pre-IE stock (thus Kroonen, passim).

The Indo-Iranian comparison is interesting in view of a possible solution to वार् (cf. Lubotsky 2013) and pre-PIE *d > *h₁, so far as , the root *u̯eh₁- is not known anywhere outside of this situation, so the reconstruction would be based purely on phonology. The fact that *u̯eh₁r- otherwise seems to be a completely separate form makes it probable that it somehow must actually have fit into the paradigm of ‘water’ next to the ud(a)n- forms. (Eskes, 2020, “The Kortlandt Effect”, Universiteit Leiden).

In an RfE, you should be able to predict hypothetical cognates and make sure they don't exist in Ryukyuan, possibly in different senses. A mechanical reconstruction does not satisfy those needs, so that's "nonsense", but it doesn't hurt to keep it around. 141.20.6.67 13:29, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, I guess. Japonic is such a small family, and is basically unattested before the big influx of Chinese loanwords, so the comparison with Proto-Germanic might be less valid, as well. Then, I guess there could still be reasons to assume a word might have been Proto-Japonic, yet having disappeared in either current Ryukyuan, Hachijō or Standard Japanese. (Although when I look it up, these internal reconstructions seem to often be discarded in order to avoid possible Korean influx...) Wakuran (talk) 13:49, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

If memory serves, Vovin himself went back and forth on the origins of a number of Japanese terms, and I think wasa / wase was one of them.

The core meaning seems to have been "early-ripening rice", as indeed matches one of the kanji spellings, 早稲 (wase, "early" + "rice"). Also if memory serves (I've moved and everything is still in boxes, and I don't know which box contains the relevant books), Vovin held that this term would lose meaning in tropical areas without a clearly defined autumn, so it would make sense for this word to have no reflexes in the Ryukyuan daughter languages.

Alternatively, it could be a Koreanic term, and its absence from the Ryukyuan languages might indicate a later borrowing after the Japanese ↔ Ryukyuan split, so the term only made it as far as the Japanese mainland.

There are compounds attested from early on, where wasa- appears as the first part in compounds and means "early-ripening". Words like 早瓜 (wasauri, “early-ripening gourd”) or 早物 (wasamono, “early-ripening thing”, fruit or veg). But then again, I don't see any likely terms in the Japanese lexicon that share any was- root, which could suggest a borrowing from an external source. The closest I see in phonemic and semantic resemblance is adjective 若い (wakai, “young”) -- but then, I'm not aware of any /s/ ↔ /k/ correlation in Japonic phonetics. (There is a correlation in suffixing elements, but that is a separate phenomenon.)

Given the evidence available (to me, at least), I don't see strong signs for this being a Proto-Japonic inheritance, and I find myself thinking that this is probably a borrowing. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 22:34, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Does the fact that it has both -a and -e tell us anything? Would a loanword be likely to show that pattern? —Soap— 15:20, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

@Soap: No. The only thing it shows is that the pre-Old Japanese form was *wasai < *wasay? (internal reconstruction only; not Proto-Japonic!). Via reconstruction of a Proto-Japonic word-final consonant *-y presumably based off Ainu and internal evidence, it gets deleted following a compound (no consonant clusters except word-medial pre-nasalized stops; e.g. PJ *mentu (“water”)). 早稲田 (wasada, “early rice field”) < *wasa(y)n(ə)ta. Several theories were on this revision of this dubious PJ *wasay, but they got deleted because consensus for a relationship of Proto-Japonic to other language has not been confirmed (only (un)definite Korean comparisons; e.g. compare X or possibly cognate with X). @荒巻モロゾフ noted in Wiktionary talk:About Proto-Japonic#The #Standalone forms and combining forms section that the psuedo-Goguryeo/Koguryo toponyms contain errors or speculated 倭寇 (wōkòu) (see User talk:荒巻モロゾフ/Syllable table of Japanese dialects). The problem is that @Eirikr blocked me from Wiktionary all because I added forgotten sourced accent pronunciation to the PJ sections; he even blocked me from mainspace as well even though I source things in mainspace. Chuterix (talk) 16:24, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

I thought words that alternate like this were assumed to be originally composite, in this case from an earlier wasa-i, which is the explanation we endorse on our page. And that this -i was not typically added to loaned morphemes. This is mentioned on Wikipedia. We don't list such a morpheme in Category:Proto-Japonic_lemmas, though, so Im not sure what to think. Is the -i theory just a guess? —Soap— 17:21, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

• @Chuterix, I blocked you for many reasons, the biggest of which was an apparent effort to restructure all Proto-Japonic entries without achieving anything like consensus -- an unfortunate continuation of a pattern you demonstrate of rash editing. The block was short -- just three days -- and intentionally and explicitly structured to allow you to discuss pronunciation sections in Proto-Japonic entries, before engaging in any more editing of Proto-Japonic entries.

That said, I haven't seen any threads from you seeking to discuss this issue...

• @Soap -- Separately, sources I have read describe the presence of a front vowel /i/, not a "word-final consonant *-y". There is (as far as I'm aware) no scholarly consensus on whether 1) this vowel was added to words when used as standalones or the final element in a compound, or instead whether 2) this vowel was a core part of such words, and was deleted when the word was used as the first element in a compound. Old Japanese is when we first get anything Japanese in written form, and Old Japanese did not allow adjacent vowels in the same word, causing instead elision or fusion. Words with this reconstructed final /i/ were realized as standalones or the second element in compounds by fusing the /i/ with the preceding vowel: /o/ + /i/ → /i₂/, /u/ + /i/ → /i₂/, /a/ + /i/ → /e₂/.

One of the theories is Vovin's, that this final vowel may have been a reflex of a final liquid consonant, as in Middle Korean ᄡᆞᆯ (psol), which would have been abbreviated in Japonic when the word was the first element in a compound. In other words, he views this vowel difference as a deletional process. Meanwhile, monolingual Japanese dictionaries that mention this vowel shift often describe the un-fronted version of the word as the older of the two, implying that the final /i/ was an additional process.

Regarding native or not native, there is no clear consensus on that. All words that display this kind of shift are nouns traceable to the Old Japanese stage. All obey expected Japonic sound rules (such as no initial /r/ phonemes, no initial voiced stops, etc.), and show no other apparent indications of any non-Japonic origin. That said, they may have been prehistoric borrowings, giving time for adaption to the Japonic sound system and integration into the lexicon.

But there is also no clear reason for this vowel-shifting to exist at all. Vovin's line of reasoning pursuing a connection to Korean 쌀 (ssal) and Middle Korean ᄡᆞᆯ (psol) (more details in the KO entry for those interested) is one attempt at finding an explanation for this phenomenon.

Much more speculatively, I have personally wondered if this might reflect some kind of prehistoric noun-class system, perhaps similar to Polynesian languages' classification by separable and non-separable, which (at least some of) these Japanese nouns seem to faintly resemble. I described this in brief about a month ago over in the Wiktionary_talk:About_Proto-Japonic#The_#Standalone_forms_and_combining_forms_section thread, starting from "As an alternative hypothesis, nouns with vowel fronting...".

Then again, this vowel fronting is also similar to what we see in verb conjugation stems, where predicate-final /u/ shifts to /i/ when the verb is conjugated into the so-called "continuative" or "infinitive" form -- which can also be used as a noun.

You asked, "Is the -i theory just a guess?" Other authors have opined that this might have come from an Old Japanese emphatic nominal particle い (i). This seems a possibility, despite that this particle remains in evidence as a discrete (non-fused) morpheme in Old Japanese texts. However, I recently found a paper talking about this, "A Korean Grammatical Borrowing in Early Middle Japanese Kunten Texts and its Relation to the Syntactic Alignment of Earlier Korean and Japanese" by John Whitman in 2012. This argues that the い (i) particle was a borrowing from early Korean-peninsula languages during the time of Buddhist importation from the mainland, which appears to rule out this particle as a source of the vowel-fronting seen in these nouns.

All told, no solid explanation has yet been found. More research is needed in this area. If we are lucky, more ancient texts might be discovered that could shed more light on how these terms manifested and were used.

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 22:26, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

@Eirikr: You started the debate section about the pron sections discussion here at Wiktionary:Requests for cleanup#Reconstruction:Proto-Japonic/kanto and multiple other JPX-PRO entries after I added PJ accent (which I forgot to source). Also what about an uncontracted 都都伊 tutui apparently meaning mallet (c.f. MdJ 槌 (tsuchi)), appearing only in the Kojiki and Nihon Shoki? I will follow the theory that a word final *-y in PJ is part of the word; it is deleted in compounds due to no vowel clusters. But I also believe it might be an inflection. Chuterix (talk) 22:51, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm a member of a Facebook group about Slavic languages, and a Polish speaker posted the following question a while back:

One of the weirdest words in Polish language have to be "pantałyk". Apart from just one saying: "zbić kogoś z pantałyku" (to confuse someone, knock somebody off stride) there is, aparently, no other use for this word. I'm reading it may be of Russian origin. Any thoughts?

People had various theories, but a lot of them had more of a folk etymology quality. At least a few sources (like this one and this one) were given to attest the Polish phrase, and equivalents were provided in Russian (сбить кого с панталыку) and Ukrainian (збити з пантелику).

I believe Russian Wiktionary has панталык, but last I checked, its etymology section was empty. We could use some help from a friendly linguist :)

Available English Wiktionary entries:

• збити з пантелику (zbyty z pantelyku)
• спантеличити (spantelyčyty)
• zbić z pantałyku

Thanks,

Chernorizets (talk) 22:30, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

The Polish term is indeed only used in that phrase and was borrowed from either Russian according to Witold Doroszewski, editor (1958–1969), “pantałyk”, in Słownik języka polskiego (in Polish), Warszawa: PWN or Belarusian/Ukrainian according to Stanisław Dubisz, editor (2003), “pantałyk”, in Uniwersalny słownik języka polskiego ‎ (in Polish), volumes 1-4, Warsaw: Wydawnictwo Naukowe PWN SA, →ISBN. Beyond being from East Slavic, it seems the term is of obscure origin. Vininn126 (talk) 08:07, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

@Vininn126 do you know any Russian or Ukrainian experts here that we could ping? According to a РИА Новости article, at least one Russian philologist seems to explain "панталык" like so:

"Панталык" –  искаженное Пантелик – гора в Древней Греции, где добывали мрамор.

Wikipedia has an article on Mount Pentelicus, which as far I can tell is the same mountain from the quote above. I don't have the background to double-check that etymology myself. Another source mentioning this etymology is this dictionary, although apparently Vasmer traces it to other sources.

Thanks,

21:08, 24 July 2023 (UTC) Chernorizets (talk) 21:08, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

PWN's language council suggests three sources, citing Vasmeer. I don't know if you know Polish, but they suggest: Azerbaijani pand + -lik, Ukrainian панталик, or Bavarian pantl. Ultimately it seems the term is of {{uncertain}} origin. Vininn126 (talk) 21:22, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

What would these presumed sources have as meaning? Wakuran (talk) 21:43, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

In turn, "cleverness; knowledge", and for Ukr and Bav "loop". Vininn126 (talk) 21:48, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

@Vininn126 I've seen a Google-translated version of this page. It was somewhat of a bummer that I couldn't find the Azeri or Bavarian formants on here, and the Ukrainian source seems to be пантелик (pantelyk) based on the two entries that include it (see above).

Since I don't know any of these languages (beyond what I can glean as a speaker of a Slavic language myself), I guess I'm trying to finesse someone's assistance to create the corresponding Wiktionary entries ;-) An uncertain etymology is fine - as in other such cases, we can list the possibilities with appropriate references. Chernorizets (talk) 04:34, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Should these two be considered separate suffixes? I mean, German does this with -ei and -erei, and some literary sources I've seen don't even mention ־ײַ (-ay) as a suffix, only ־ערײַ (-eray). Insaneguy1083 (talk) 22:35, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Is ־ערײַ (-eray) ever added directly to verb stems the way German -erei is? All of our current examples of ־ײַ (-ay) show it being added to nouns ending in /əʁ/. —Mahāgaja · talk 08:36, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

ניסערײַ (niseray) derives from a verb though? There's no ניסער (niser) to add ־ײַ (-ay) to. I also found גיך־עסערײַ (gikh-eseray) elsewhere, and a fast food restaurant would definitely make more sense to derive from עסן (esn) than from an Esser. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 10:15, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Wouldn't ניסער (niser) be theoretically possible, just like sneezer, though? Wakuran (talk) 10:57, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Theoretically, yes, but the meaning of ניסערײַ (niseray) makes ניסן (nisn) + ־ערײַ (-eray) much more likely, and גיך־עסערײַ (gikh-eseray) is probably also from the verb. —Mahāgaja · talk 11:13, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Off topic but, I found גיך־עסערײַ (gikh-eseray) in the Comprehensive English-Yiddish Dictionary by Schaechter. There's a lot of neologisms in it, would those (incl. גיך־עסערײַ (gikh-eseray) itself) be worthy of adding to Wiktionary? Insaneguy1083 (talk) 01:59, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

According to Memrise, קאָכענען (kokhenen) comes from Polish and means "to like, to love". Ironically I haven't found this on the Polish Wiktionary. I can imagine this coming from Polish kochać, but instead Polish Wiktionary provides קאָכען זיך (yet at the same time no such standalone verb as קאָכען (kokhen)). So what do we make of קאָכענען (kokhenen)? Is it actually used in Yiddish? Insaneguy1083 (talk) 04:58, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

I've just created the Bulgarian entry шикалка (šikalka, “oak gall”). I haven't been able to find an etymology for it, though - sadly, the Bulgarian Etymological Dictionary is missing the volume where words starting with "ш-" would appear, and I could find nothing in ESSJa and a few other Slavic etymological dictionaries. According to a dialect dictionary where the dialect form шикълка (šikǎlka) is attested, it might be related to шишарка (šišarka). That's as far as I've been able to get. @Bezimenen @Kiril kovachev - ping for visibility.

Thanks,

Chernorizets (talk) 06:08, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

@Chernorizets Thanks for your ping for attention, I wish I could help you, but unfortunately, if you have nothing, then it seems I won't be able to be of help either. This is my first time hearing of ESSJa — thanks for teaching me of it — but given that I'm even less resourceful etymology-wise than yourself, I have little clue what we can do. The thing I am used to doing is just leaving it as {{rfe}}'d and waiting for the new BER volume to come out, maybe... (do you have access to the currently-undigitised volume 8, btw?). It seems we also have no cross-references from the Proto-Slavic entry from шишарка (šišarka), nor other homographs, to refer to, which I also often hope to lean on... but alas no luck. Sorry to be of so little help, Kiril kovachev (talk) 08:30, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

It might have something to do with χολή, proto-Hellenic *kʰolā́, both meaning "gall". The diminutive -ka could refer it to oak-gall rather than the human kind. Bulgaria is next to Greece, so borrowing is not unlikely. Change from kh to k is irregular, but irregularities do happen.

That still leaves the shi- to account for... 24.108.18.81 23:31, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Like شُرْطَة (šurṭa) from χόρτη (khórtē)? It is still exceedingly likely that two words were combined here to distort one word, for example by combining шиша́рка (šišárka) and that Greek word – I am thinking of cases like мангу́на (mangúna), and in that fashion there may even be unaccounted Greek forms, in either case a rare combination that will forever stay doubtful. Fay Freak (talk) 01:56, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

It's probably native Slavic. See Kurkina's article, pages 22–23. Vahag (talk) 08:26, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

What a wonderful resource! Thanks @Vahag! Chernorizets (talk) 08:34, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

So, somebody who is not me will answer more etymologies like жа́воронок (žávoronok) and щи́колотка (ščíkolotka), and create a prefix entry in Proto-Slavic *ši-, Russian, Ukrainian or Old East Slavic, and Bulgarian ши-? (My word of two words will turn out “two morphemes”.) Not to speak of the obscure dialectal words mentioned standing model for the second part? Plus *šipъ is apparently from it with suffix *-pъ rather than *šiti which sounded more like a fish story anyway. And *šišьka. @IYI681, Bezimenen. Fay Freak (talk) 12:45, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

For жаворонок, according to Vasmer, the first part is of onomatopoeic provenance, while the second is related to ворона. As for шикалка, I'm in favour of native Slavic orgin, but I cannot specify with certainty the exact provenance of the word--IYI681 (talk) 13:02, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

@IYI681: You realize though that the article that Vahagn Petrosyan linked provides some related forms and discusses Vasmer? Fay Freak (talk) 13:26, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

No, I haven't read it. I just opened Vasmer's dictionary:) I will take a look at it though Greetings, Christian IYI681 (talk) 13:30, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

"Everything Albanian has to be from native roots", as a source of seemingly bad edits to etymologies, has not yet reached "Everything Turkish has to be from native roots" levels, but it's getting there. The etymology of this name has been changed a number of times without changing the reference (thus hijacking it); someone should check what that source and others actually supports. If the Albanian ety is a folk ety, then the asserted connection to Yllbardhë also needs to be qualified. - -sche (discuss) 01:24, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

See also the edits to Afërditë today (and previously dhampir, which I eventually had to indefinitely edit-protect). - -sche (discuss) 01:26, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

OK,

I can get how the sense of "musical scale" can relate this to German Steiger, but how do we derive "custom" or "way of life"? I can't find a semantic link, other than maybe an over-the-top poetic "life has its ups and downs". Insaneguy1083 (talk) 06:01, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

German Steig can mean "footway, footpath", although the suggestion might still require some levels of Semantic shift... Wakuran (talk) 12:04, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

According to etymological dictionaries, kulkšnis is related to Bulgarian кълка (kǎlka) and BCMS кук, among others. Could someone please provide an etymology?

Thanks,

Chernorizets (talk) 04:46, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

In particular, I'm curious about PIE *(s)kel-, based on this etymology. Chernorizets (talk) 06:58, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Pokorny definitely lists kulkšnìs under (s)kel-4 (to bend, crooked). 24.108.18.81 02:23, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Derksen actually provides an etymology in his Etymological Dictionary of the Baltic Inherited Lexicon. I've updated the Lithuanian entry accordingly. Chernorizets (talk) 07:13, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

The word is pretty well-attested. But German kohlen relates more to Yiddish קויל (koyl, “coal”) than it does to killing or death more generally. And there's no known kaulen cognate in German. Could this be Hebrew-derived somehow? Insaneguy1083 (talk) 05:47, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Only if there's some way to get the ט out of קָטַל. And I don't think there's any phonologically plausible way of getting it from Proto-West Germanic *kwalljan, either. —Mahāgaja · talk 06:28, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Could it be related to keulen? Or how early is it attested, could it just be related to קויל (koyl, “bullet”)? - -sche (discuss) 06:44, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Hmmm, Swedish has ta kål på, earlier göra kål på, lit. make cabbage of, as cabbage was a main staple in rural farming, from an early West Germanic borrowing of Latin caulis, cf. German Kohl. Might Yiddish have a similar semantic reasoning, or is it unlikely? Edit, apparently Yiddish uses קרויט (kroyt), whereas its cognate in other Germanic languages usually means something like herb, plant, spice. I guess you can strike that suggestion... Wakuran (talk) 11:34, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Hmm, would a connection to coal be plausible, similar to "ashes to ashes, dust to dust", or would that just be semantically strained? Wakuran (talk) 23:23, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

I dont know what time period we're talking about here, but what we used to call bullets were things much larger, rounder, and less dangerous than what the word means today. I wouldnt think a word for bullet would be used to mean kill in, say, 1400 AD or any time earlier than that. In fact the original meaning of German Kugel (“bullet”) was bowling ball, and the Slavic word from which קויל (koyl, “bullet”) is derived is said elsewhere on our site to be a cognate of that German word. The English word bullet has a similar origin (a diminutive of a word for ball). Another early use of the word was for slingshot projectiles ... a weapon, yes ... but not anywhere near as deadly as today's guns. —Soap— 22:51, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Re keulen: the expected Yiddish cognate from that would probably be קיילן (keyln) or קײַלן (kayln), based on our knowledge of correspondences between German and Yiddish diphthongs. Although Keule apparently comes from Old High German *kūla, and OHG/MHG "ū" does sometimes turn into German au and Yiddish וי (oy).

Re קויל (koyl, “bullet”): it says there that the word is from Belarusian or Ukrainian (although I would personally dispute that since /u/ => /oj/ is a bit dubious), and its plural form is clearly differentiated with the verb "to kill" so I don't quite see the connection. In fact, now that I think about it (and I'm getting a bit off-topic here but) I would actually posit קויל (koyl, “bullet”) as a cognate of Keule rather than of some Slavic origin. After all, it was stated that Kugel is related to Keule. Perhaps קויל (koyl) took the morphology of Kaule, but then the meaning of Kugel? If so, then קוילען (koylen) meaning "to kill" would make quite a bit more sense. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 02:58, 1 August 2023 (UTC)