Wiktionary:Etymology scriptorium/2023/May

Maybe related to Macedonian чакнат? Ramalokin (talk) 09:40, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Or чукнат? They both may be just onomatopœic. Tollef Salemann (talk) 17:31, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Sonderia is a protist type genus of the Sonderiidae family. The name seems to be an eponym but I can't find who is this "Sonder" that Alfred Kahl wanted to honor in 1928. Any idea? Thanks. Gerardgiraud (talk) 05:52, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Maybe Otto Wilhelm Sonder? However, he was a botanist and so might not be an obvious choice as a namesake for a protist. The Wikipedia article mentions some plants named after him, but says nothing about Sonderia or the Sonderiidae. —Mahāgaja · talk 07:16, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for this lead. Alfred Kahl was born near Hamburg and Otto Wilhelm Sonder practiced in Hamburg. Kahl surely knew Sonder and might have wanted to honor Sonder, for some reason he doesn't seem to mention in his writings. Gerardgiraud (talk) 08:22, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

But Kakl is not accustomed to giving the etymology of the taxa he creates. Gerardgiraud (talk) 08:24, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

@Vininn126 @Thadh @ZomBear @Shumkichi @Bezimenen

This is complicated, don't confuse these lemmas with *sědlo (“seat”) and *sedъlo (“saddle”), latter is not problematic but is continued in Polish in the same way as *sedlo.

In East and South Slavic languages group -dl- is always simplified to -l-, because of that lemmas like Old East Slavic село (selo) or Old Church Slavonic село (selo) (and other modern descendants) are reconstructed back to Proto-Slavic *sedlo, and if Proto-Slavic *selo ever existed, it's descendants in modern East and South Slavic languages are homonymous. Sławobóg (talk) 14:10, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Derksen, however, prefers reconstruction *selo using the same descendants. This is interesting, because Old Czech selo (“field”) (after Derksen), Czech selo (“pasture”) (after Smoczyński) can't be derived from *sedlo. For the same reason Polish sioło／sieło (“village”) is considered to be borrowing or influenced by some East Slavic word.

My idea is that these are actually 2 separate lexemes, which are homonymous in East/South Slavic languages, but are different in West Slavic languages. I propose creating something like that:

• *sedlo (“settlement?”): Old Czech: sedlo (“settlement”) (> Czech: sedlák (“farmer, peasant”)), Polish: siodło (“village”) (> siodłak (“peasant”), osiedle (“settlement”)), Old Church Slavonic: село (selo, “village”), Old East Slavic: село (selo, “dwelling, container, residence, village”), Belarusian: сяло́ (sjaló, “village”), Ukrainian: село́ (seló, “village”), Russian: село́ (seló, “village”), Bulgarian: се́ло (sélo, “village”), Macedonian: се́ло (sélo, “village; people?”), Serbo-Croatian: сѐло／sèlo (“village”), Slovene: sélo (“dwelling, place, village”)
• *selo (“field? soil? farm?”): Old Czech: selo (“field”) (after Derksen), Czech: selo (“pasture”) (after Smoczyński), Polish: sioło／sieło (“soil”) (after Derksen), Old Church Slavonic: село (selo, “farmstead, homestead, estate; field, piece of land in the countryside; country, region, land”), Old East Slavic: село (selo, “piece of land; estate, property; field, meadow”), Russian: село́ (seló, “farmland”), Ukrainian: село́ (seló, “country; rural area”), Bulgarian: се́ло (sélo, “country; rural area”), Serbo-Croatian: сѐло／sèlo (“country; rural area”), Slovene: sélo (“soil”)

Etymology:

• *sedlo: from Proto-Indo-European *sed-lo- with close or exact cognates: Proto-Germanic *setlaz, Old Armenian տեղ (teł), Latin sella, doublet of *sědlo (for -e- instead of expected -ě- see *sedъlo).
• *selo: Smoczyński suggested from earlier *solo (with anlaut -e- as a result of the influence of *sedlo), from Proto-Indo-European *solom, Latin solum (“ground; soil”), Lithuanian salà (“village”), Latvian sala (“village”) would be exact cognates.

Polish sioło／sieło (“village”) would be borrowing from East Slavic.

Thoughts? Sławobóg (talk) 14:10, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

@Sławobóg: I’d have appreciated a ping too (see my edits in siodło, *sědlo, and also: previous discussion in the Scriptorium and Talk:siodło). What do you mean by:

(for -e- instead of expected -ě- see *sedъlo)

? In the case of *sedъlo the *e is either:

1. due to the word being a (post-Winter’s Law) borrowing from Germanic (Derksen),
2. or just due to the open syllable (it’s *se-dъ-lo after all, compare eg. *voda with *o, not *a).

*sědlo (as reconstructed by Derksen and reflected eg. in Czech sídlo, or BCSM sijelo – note clear jať reflex here, different form *selo) is the expected regular Proto-Slavic form with lengthening before *d due to Winter’s Law (if we accept the law is true, *sedlo with the closed syllable *sed- is impossible in Proto-Slavic) – having reflexes of the expected *sědlo actually attested in both West and South Slavic, it doesn’t seem reasonable to me to postulate *sedlo. // Silmeth ^@talk 14:51, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Also this claim:

-e- instead of expected -ě- (cf. *sěděti, *sědlo) is explained by irregular phonetic development caused by frequency.

sounds a bit weird to me. Why would the verb not get shortened then, since presumably it’d be much more frequently used, than the noun? (the verb hypothetically also could be without lengthening due to open syllables – but there are forms with closed syllables, like *sěsti, *sědlъ, so even if we assume Winter’s Law didn’t operate on open syllables, there’s still models for analogy keeping the length in open-syllable forms). // Silmeth ^@talk 15:10, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for pinging you @Silmethule, I missed you somehow. I added that explanation because that is only one that I found. Noone (besides Derksen) considers these words to be borrowings from Germanic, actually Boryś and Snoj say that Germanic words might be from Proto-Slavic. Polish, Czech, ORV, OCS point out at *sedlo/*selo. What is explanation for OCS words always being село (selo), сельскъ (selĭskŭ), селище (selište), селити (seliti) or Old Novgorodian село (selo) without jať?

@Sławobóg: Czech sídlo and BCSM sijelo point towards *sědlo. Polish sioło, sielski, Czech selo, selský (the fact the two agree, btw, IMO is a fair argument they’re both inherited, not borrowed – although there could be OCS influence on Czech and then Czech on Polish… or later analogical changes, see below) point towards *selo without d. Polish siodło (“hamlet, village”) indeed suggests *sedlo, especially in place-names like Długosiodło (and maybe words like siedlisko, siedliszcze – but they have variants sielisko, sieliszcze in OPl.; and then there’s OPl. siadlisko suggesting jať in them…).

So as I see it, we have two options:

1. To follow Derksen and reconstruct two separate PSl. forms:

1. PSl. *selo (> sioło, sielski, selo, selský, село (selo), село (selo), etc.),
2. and *sědlo (> sídlo, sijelo, siadło, and also inflicting influence on the semantics of Polish siodło < PSl. *sedъlo).

The situation being messy because in the east and mostly in the south *selo and *sědlo merged early without trace of jať (due to similarity between late forms *selo and *sělo after the simplification of -dl- cluster in those branches) – but again note sijelo preserving jať.

2. Alternatively we could reconstruct *sedlo with Old Polish borrowing *selo early (sioło attested in 1461 acc. to Słownik staropolski, presence of umlaut + simplification of -dl-), and explaining Old Czech siedlo > Czech sídlo, and Serbo-Croatian sijelo as influence from the verb *sěsti, *sěděti – but this seems less straightforward to me (especially since it goes against Winter’s Law). But that actually is the way Elektronický slovník staré češtiny explains OCz. siedlo (no dates for attestation of sedlo vs siedlo though). Another piece supporting this would be Old Czech sedlský with d and without jať (but how does it fit with modern selský?).

I don’t know how Baltic data fits into this, but that’s what I see from Slavic perspective.

Anyway, I think we should be careful in how we deal with this and we should note all the difficulties and conflicting data (and shouldn’t dismiss Derksen’s reconstructions too easily). // Silmeth ^@talk 20:08, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

@Silmethule I don't dismiss Derksen's reconstruction here, I think we should have 3 lemmas: *sědlo, *sedlo, *selo. If sijelo is inherited from *sědlo, then it is evidence that jat' doesn't disappear after change -dl- > -l-. If it's post-PS formation, then it should be removed from PS page. If disappearance of jat' after -dl- > -l- was an actual thing, linguists would mention it. Semantics also speaks against such a division: descendants of *sědlo always mean "seat", descendants of *sedlo always mean "village" and these never cross (Serbo-Croatian selo (“gathering”) might be *sedlo semantically influenced by *sědlo (sijelo)). Even if you want to believe that jat' just disappeared, Polish siodło and Old Czech sedlo are hard evidence that *sedlo existed, and that lets us to connect East/South Slavic words to *sedlo instead of *sědlo.

BTW Machek (machine transl):

PS *sedlo is different from *sedъlo, because there was no yer in it, which is evident from the forms where dl gave only l. In view of this, it is odd to consider -dlo as a suffix (and not its d as part of the root). Then the root part would not be from *sedět, but from the original *sě-, from the root *kˢei- (our *tḱey-), which meant holding agricultural property, living on a rural estate: Ancient Greek κτίσις (ktísis), Sanskrit क्षेत्र (kṣetra), Avestan 𐬱𐬋𐬌𐬚𐬭𐬀 (šōiθra), sídlo, sídliště, Sanskrit क्षेति (kṣeti), क्षियन्ति (kṣiyanti) dwells, resides somewhere. Although the suffix tra is somewhat different, but in our country it is replaced by dlo in the same function in other words. Especially क्षेत्र (kṣetra) and 𐬱𐬋𐬌𐬚𐬭𐬀 (šōiθra) fit our sědlo well; Although tra is a slightly different suffix, in our country it is replaced by dlo in the same function in other words. The pre-Slavic ancestor for the term "sídlo" was *kˢoi-dhlo-, which would be PS sědlo. It was shortened to e, among other reasons (tendency to merge ě and e; shortening effect of "long" suffixes like -jak-) also probably due to the verb to seděti, because it (and German sitzen etc., Wohnsitz) is used metaphorically for live on your own farm. German siedeln (“sídlit”) etc. is from Slavic.

Sławobóg (talk) 20:03, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

What is the deal with Norwegian Nynorsk så å seia, Russian так сказать (tak skazatʹ), English so to speak and all the similar constructiones? Isn't the first time i'm aksing about euro-universal calques, bit this time it may be an actual calque (from German sozusagen ???). Do any body knows how to find any historical information on this subject?

Given per say must have spontaniously emerged, I believe that this is more of a opaque, synchronic thing. Translations and synonyms in tables are of to a good start. E.g. quasi is also used in this way. Overall, s-initial particles are frequently collocated in these phrases, as it were, but I am not aware of a single reconstructable idiom. Sources should be first of all the primary texts.

Not sure, why would you prefer German in this? 46.183.103.17 12:04, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

German sounds like a very reasonable source for any word composition common for Slavic and Scandinavian languages, if it is not Latin or English (i guess it is no Latin calque, if it is a calque at all). But I have no sources about this neither, that's why i'm asking if anybody knows any thing on it Tollef Salemann (talk) 14:58, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

RFV of the etymology. This appears to me more as a figurative extension of "astronaut" sense rather than a literal interpretation of its parts, cf. astronaut which has a sense that is same or similar in meaning. – Wpi31 (talk) 08:34, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

It could be a folk etymological pun, I assume. Wakuran (talk) 12:50, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Also, the relevant sense of English astronaut seems to be confined to Hong Kong English, so it's probably a semantic loan of the Cantonese term. —Mahāgaja · talk 13:51, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

LA temno says that PIE "*tm̥-n-h₂-, nasal-infix from *temh₁- (“to cut”)".

Could be that a H2 becomes H1 through -n- or is it a typo (among Derived terms in PIE it's H1)?

※Sobreira ◣◥ 〒 @「parlez」 22:52, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

I think it's just a typo. The entry for *temh₁- itself lists *tm̥-ne-h₁-ti with h₁. —Mahāgaja · talk 22:59, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

What's the origin?

• It's not from "female ogre", only attested in English c. 1710, and French in 1697: heraldic ogresses are from 1572.
• The French term is ogoesse, but this is itself opaque, and doesn't seem to be the source of the English term, because it's attested later, in 1611 in an English dictionary (and next attested as ogoese in Furetière's 1690 dictionary, and as ognesse in 1759), and it and other fanciful roundel terms are little used in French and are variable in form (e.g. guse~buse, pomme~somme), and the derivation of some seems easier in English (/ˈɡjuz/ from /ˈɡjulz/ is transparent, whereas French deriving /ɡyz/ from /ɡœl/ is less obvious), so it seems to me they may have originated in English, not French. (Walter Skeat says "the form ogoesse looks doubtful".)
• A 1486 text says "oglys" is blazon for gonestonys; the OED finds it "difficult to find a formal relation", but a letter from OW Tancock in Notes and Queries (1882) makes me wonder: could ogres(s) be a misreading of ogles? Applying a term meaning "eye" to the roundel seems straightforward, like calling the green ones pommes, and the confusion of plural and singular is mirrored there, too, with some works later taking pommeis for a singular...

- -sche (discuss) 23:59, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Anyone have any idea as to the etymology? I’ve been trying to learn German and I’ve found it useful to mentally connect German words with their English cognates, so I was interested to know if preisen was related to the English praise 203.173.0.199 10:58, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Derived from the noun Preis, I believe, so they at least seem to be indirectly related. Wakuran (talk) 11:14, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

The clearly cognate Dutch prijzen is said to be inherited from Middle Dutch prisen, from Old French priser. German preisen is said to be inherited from Middle High German prīsen. I bet that the Middle Dutch and Middle High German verbs have analogous etymologies.  --Lambiam 06:25, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Does anyone know where this Serbian surname originally came from or what it means? I've found some folk etymology linking it to đinđuva (pearl neckalce) but it's not very convincing, and it raises a new question of where đinđuva came from. I suspect this is from Arabic via Ottoman, like đevrek (see gevrek), but I don't know how to search Arabic words here. 78.1.21.178 16:05, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

I don’t know about the surname, but đinđuva is from Hungarian gyöngy (“pearl, bead”), which ultimately has a Chinese (!) origin — see Chinese 珍珠 (zhēnzhū). — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 16:41, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

That's really interesting! I should've remembered to consider the Hungarian "gy", but I never would've thought of Chinese. That's nice because I thought that if đinđuva wasn't from Ottoman, it had to be some kind of onomatopeic construction like trt mrt, and that's not a likely base for a surname. 78.1.15.192 00:46, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

As an interesting aside, I found out that the similar word nakinđuriti also comes from Hungarian, but from another word, kincs, which seems to ultimately come back to IE (Iranian) and surely also produced kinč in Slavonian Croatian (meaning Kitsch, here in Zagreb dialect it was obviously imported from Viennese German as kič). Seeing as German Kitsch etymology is recent and unknown, could it have come from kincs, via Austria? This could be added to the Kitsch entry. 93.138.174.208 18:25, 10 May 2023 (UTC) <- OP

Their is that they are named so after a female ancestor who was nicknamed 'Đinđa' for supposedly wearing many pearl necklaces. But etymologies of family names are in general iffy. 178.220.112.95 14:49, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, that's the article I read too. There just doesn't seem to be much about it online, even though it's a pretty well represented surname. 93.137.62.111 14:00, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Synotia (talk • contribs) likes to think that country names, such as Соединённые Шта́ты Аме́рики (Sojedinjónnyje Štáty Amériki)} is a calque of the English the United States of America. Maybe it is, maybe it's not. The term may as well arrive via French or German. There is no evidence that the word was borrowed from English.

Further, he made самоде́льное взрывно́е устро́йство (samodélʹnoje vzryvnóje ustrójstvo, “improvised explosive device”) a calque of improvised explosive device. It's not even an exact translation. Again, no evidence was provided. I really doubt it was calqued from English. I reverted the edit, he reverted back and posted on my talk page. I am not interested in the edit war but I don't like to flood Category:Russian terms calqued from English, which contain real calques with the original research from this editor (IMO). You can see the category contains more country names now. I don't have a proof that they are not calques either but I don't have to provide that proof, I'd leave the entries without the etymology sections altogether. @Benwing2, @Vahagn Petrosyan, @Tetromino: do you have an opinion on this? Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 12:22, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for being rude, but Synotia does not know what he is doing. He should stop editing Russian. Vahag (talk) 15:25, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

I could support a rule excluding names of countries and organizations from the "calqued from" categories. As for самодельное взрывное устройство, I would want to see evidence before calling it a calque. The expression is a sum of parts. Parallel invention is likely. When was it used in Russian? In the U.S. it was rarely used starting in the early 20th century and entered widespread use around 2003. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 15:44, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

The etymology section of improvised explosive device is incorrect or misleading. The colocation predates the Troubles by decades. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 15:46, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

What's your evidence of that? my source is this Synotia (talk) 06:27, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

FWIW, I'm distrustful of this user too. PUC – 18:32, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Why would the term enter via French or German though? Synotia (talk) 06:24, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

If "США" is through French or German, it is still from English. But i wouldn't translate German vereinigte as "соединенные". Still, "США" sounds like a calque, but anyway, its earlier version is СШСА, and it is sure from (European?) English United States of North America.

Самодельное в. у. - i can't find no mentions of this term from the early XX century, so it may be a modern calque, but we probably need some more info and statistics on it. Tollef Salemann (talk) 10:18, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

I assume there is no consensus on this matter of country names and calques? Synotia (talk) 16:46, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

This seems bogus to me. The Proto-Italic entry for *potiwaleo doubly so. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 22:39, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

De Vaan gives Proto-Italic *polnē-, "to be full” > “to be strong”, referring to McCone and Rix, who both propose derivation from the nasal-infix-present *pl̥-né-h₁- of *pleh₁-. None of the possibly etymologically related forms mentioned in the entry does not contain the letter t.  --Lambiam 13:14, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

@Lambiam, changed to reflect that. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 15:13, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Which sense of light is over light derived from?

Lightly fried, so '7. Slight, not forceful or intense; small in amount or intensity.', I'd presume. Wakuran (talk) 11:18, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Which sense of light is trip the light fantastic derived from? Skisckis (talk) 06:15, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Originally, the phrase was trip the light fantastic toe, so presumably '8. Gentle; having little force or momentum.' or possibly '12. Not encumbered; unembarrassed; clear of impediments; hence, active; nimble; swift.' Wakuran (talk) 11:22, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Yep, seems decent. Gratitude Skisckis (talk) 20:23, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Currently skeet is divided into three etymologies: a pseudo-archaic form of shoot; regionalism possibly from Manx; and a blend of sky + tweet.

The first of those three includes senses that I suspect may be of different (albeit uncertain) etymology. The "trapshooting" sense does seem to come from shoot (per news articles in the 1920s-30s), coined in the twentieth century. But the "long handled shovel" sense is much older, perhaps from Early Modern English.

• c. 1440, Arthur Brandeis, editor, Jacob's well : an Englisht treatise on the cleansing of man's conscience‎, published 1900, page 2:

  My werk & labour schal be to tellyn what is þis wose of þe vij. dedly synnes, & how ʒe schul caste out þis wose, ffirst wyth with a skeet of contricyoun, and after wyth a skauell of confession

  My work and labor shall be to tell what is this ooze of the deadly sins, and how they shall cast out this ooze, first with the skeet of contrition and after with the spade of confession

In addition, I wonder if various, erm, excretory senses ("ejaculation of semen", "to ejaculate", "to spray", and perhaps even the poker hand) might come from Old Norse skítr (“shit”) (compare Swedish or Norwegian skit (“excrement; rubbish”)), though skjóta (“to shoot”) may be equally likely. Alternately, Green's Dictionary of Slang suggests that slang senses "flush a hypodermic needle", "have intercourse", and "ejaculate" may come from squirt, and elsewhere that "an injection of heroin" may come either from scag + hit or from the "flush a needle" sense of skeet. FWIW. Cnilep (talk) 07:23, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

The Old Norse connection to excretion seems highly unlikely. Too long passage of time, and unlikely semantic shift. It's possible that skeet (shovel) might be related to Old Norse skeið (spoon, etx.), I guess, but the final consonant doesn't fit. Wakuran (talk) 11:31, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

For a change of pace from people asking about the origin of taxonomic Latin names, what's the origin of this vernacular name? Merriam-Webster helpfully says it's "probably from the name Alice". Alice who? Alice in Wonderland? Alice blue Alice? - -sche (discuss) 00:38, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

In other words, who the fuck is Alice? —Mahāgaja · talk 07:50, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

😂

Amusingly, some of the early examples I can find of the name are asking this same question:

• November 1900, William R. Maxon, in a letter published in January 1901, Fern Bulletin: A Quarterly Devoted to Ferns, volume IX, number 1, page 19:

  The old negro women here are again offering the Climbing fern (Lygodium palmatum) in the Central market, where from now (November 1st) until Christmas time it will be sold more or less commonly for purposes of decoration. Local botanists know it only from one small station, but it evidently occurs in abundance elsewhere in the vicinity—just where we are not likely to discover, for the venders are extremely chary of information. With them it goes altogether by the name of "Alice's fern," a new one, perhaps, to most fern students.—William R. Maxon, Washington, D. C.

- -sche (discuss) 14:16, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

So, African American Vernacular English? Where is the "here" mentioned? Wakuran (talk) 14:49, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Presumably Washington, D.C., since that's where the writer is writing from. Alice Roosevelt Longworth (the "Alice blue" Alice) is thus not entirely ruled out; she was only 1216 years old in 1900, but she was the Vice President's daughter. On the other hand, if old women were using the term, it had probably been around for decades already. —Mahāgaja · talk 15:30, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

I've added more of the letter to the quote above. It was apparently written in November 1900 and published in January 1901, which is months before McKinley's assassination thrust Alice into enough of a spotlight to have Alice blue named for her, but she would've been 16 and ~8 months (no?) ... perhaps the women had already, even before her father's rise to the presidency, rebranded the fern after the socialite to be fashionable? Both Maxon and the editor consider it a 'new' name, and might be expected to have been knowledgeable of older fern names given their occupations. Of course, it's also possible old Black women had been using the term for some time and white scholars hadn't talked to them ... but then, the context is them using the term while selling the plants to the public at market, so it seems like fern-ers would've encountered it had it been used for a long time. I haven't spotted any uses before 1900; such uses could help rule out Alice Roosevelt if they exist.) - -sche (discuss) 16:51, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes; 16 years old. I mis-subtracted. At any rate, it strikes me as unlikely that she was the namesake of the Alice fern, but it can't be definitively ruled out unless someone finds a use from 1883 or earlier. —Mahāgaja · talk 17:18, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Can someone please handle my lob-on? Which sense of lob does this term come from? Finding an explanation was hard, and left me unsatisfied, but I was determined to come into my own by adding an etymology, you know, to bash one out. Skisckis (talk) 20:22, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

A qualified guess is that it could be Cockney rhyming slang of knob, blended with hard-on. Alternatively it could be a figurative usage of a high ball kick/ ht/ throw. Wakuran (talk) 21:01, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Surely it’s from lob=lump. I suspect lob-on is formed from the words lob and on in a similar way to how hard-on is formed from hard+on, rather than it being a portmanteau/blend of lob and hard-on. —-Overlordnat1 (talk) 22:12, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

وزن (vazn, “weight”) is wrongly given an Arabic etymology. It is derived from present root of آویختن (avixtan, “to suspend, to balance”). Compare with آویزان (âvizân, “suspended, balanced”) in modern Persian. The relation between balanced and weight is identical to etymology of вес (ves, “weight”) in Russian. The Persian and Russian words are probably of the same Indo-European root. English weight and German wiegen are probably from the same root, with the common replacement of g by z.@ 86.245.255.63 17:45, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

The Arabic etymology is far more plausible than this random collection of words that have nothing in common beyond starting with a w or v sound. (Incidentally, Persian âvixtan is spelled آویختن; what you wrote above is andâxtan.) —Mahāgaja · talk 19:02, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Clearly Arabic and Persian words are the same and have the same meaning. No need for etymology. The question is, given the large number of arabised persian words in persian and arabic, which one came first? The persian root 'wxn' of آویختن needs a single x -> g transformation to be identical to root of wiegen in german. Its present tense root, wzn, has a single s -> z transformation to be the Russian word for weight, вес. Wiktalia (talk) 18:15, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

There is no question. The Semitic origin of the Arabic is laid bare at its root page و ز ن (w-z-n). One who does not consider roots of Semitic words should not windbag about their origins. Fay Freak (talk) 15:48, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

I am a bit confused by the given etymologies and the connections. As far as I know as a native speaker, the 4th meaning of 'mot' in Dutch refers to tiny particle, as it is mostly used for 'motregen' which is rain with a diameter less than 0.5mm. This seems related to the Middle English meaning of 'speck, particle'. However I don't understand the connection to taxes. Moreover, the page states that 'keldermot' and 'steenmot' (both words for specific isopods living in houses) derive from the third meaning (sow, lewd woman); but that seems like large jump when the other option is that the words are related to tiny particle (since bugs are tiny) and/or the word moth (which seems to historically have referred to more bugs). So does anyone know something about this, what is the exact path on how the word meaning transformed? I can't find a clear source, but I would like it if someone with more knowledge than me could give the Dutch section a review, perhaps along with the Middle English section. (Also, 'mot' is sometimes an alternate spelling of 'moet' (have to, cog. 'must') for informal speech, e.g. "Wat mot je?") Pepijn (Pepijn) (talk) 23:54, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

@Pepijn: it looks like we're missing an etymology section at Old English mot. The "tax" sense is mōt (with a long vowel), but the "speck" sense (which survived into modern English as mote) is mot (with a short vowel). See Bosworth and Toller's entry. Chuck Entz (talk) 00:37, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Also, have you checked etymologiebank? It looks like at least some of their sources are making a connection to Dutch made. Chuck Entz (talk) 00:42, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Dendrosomides is the type genus of the Dendrosomididae family. The name is derived from the Greek δένδρων dendron, “tree”, but I don't understand what somides relates to. Is it soma (body)? Thank you for your suggestions. Gerardgiraud (talk) 07:22, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

δένδρον (déndron, “tree”) + σῶμα (sôma, “body”) + -ίδης (-ídēs) does seem very likely. —Mahāgaja · talk 08:07, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks @Mahagaja. Gerardgiraud (talk) 09:07, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

I looked on the Hebrew Wiktionary, and I'm aware it comes from Greek κάμινος. That's all I know. Cheeto Boy (talk) 12:11, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

If this is Modern, Revived Hebrew, I think it would likely have come from a Modern European language, such as German Kamin or Russian камин. Wakuran (talk) 12:36, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Even then it would be more likely from Arabic قَمِين (qamīn) due to its meaning. Otherwise parallelly with Aramaic קמין / ܩܡܝܢ (qamīn, “oven, furnace”) borrowed from Greek or borrowed from Aramaic if acquired in Hebrew after Hebrew died out. Fay Freak (talk) 15:52, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Alright, thanks! I added the etymology, but the wording and/or formatting might be off, so if someone could correct it that'd be great. Cheeto Boy (talk) 16:41, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Agree with Wakuran. Ernest Klein says 'tis from Greek. I reckon, through Russian or German/Yidish. Tollef Salemann (talk) 18:21, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

From an anyhow modern perspective the German and Russian have too little similarity, since they specifically mean a fireplace under a chimney. Even in old houses an oven for preparing food or furnace (Backofen, Küchenofen, Brennofen—the Germanic simplex Ofen/oven is generic about whether it heats for the whole room or a specific purpose) and a fireplace with attached chimney were likely different concepts. The restriction of the English definition of fireplace “at the base of a chimney” is dubious, not even followed by the Wikipedia article on it, I used it here as SOPish as German Feuerstätte. English may not have a word specificially corresponding to the fireplace called Kamin. Osman’s German-Arabic dictionary, consequent with my distinction, does not translate Kamin to قَمِين (qamīn), instead مَدْخَنَة (madḵana) and مِدْفَأَة (midfaʔa). The Hebrew however, from an image search, seems to have both meanings, so thereby probably is correctly guessed as continuing the Eastern borrowing and then being subject to semantic loan from German and its Eastern European descendants: the word existed previously but had to mean what familiar European languages mean with it. Fay Freak (talk) 22:53, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

At Proto-Germanic *hugiz we have:

Descendants

• English: high

Really?  --Lambiam 05:42, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Possibly, but only if there's a third etymology of high that we don't have listed yet. Perhaps someone with access to the OED could look and see if there's some archaic/obsolete/dialectal meaning of high that means something along the lines of "thought". —Mahāgaja · talk 08:02, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

I believe it was listed, but it has failed RFV. I've removed the descendant from Old English hyġe. Leasnam (talk) 03:19, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, it was Talk:high#RFV_discussion:_January_2023. (I've removed it also from the PGmc page now.) - -sche (discuss) 04:53, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Possibly reloaned from a prakrit due to the jh AleksiB 1945 (talk) 06:41, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

No, *dʰǵʰu- would have rendered **kṣu- in Sanskrit. It's mostly likely a borrowing, from Dravic or somewhere. --{{victar|talk}} 19:20, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

*kṣu- natively but Prakrits can give jh and then loaned into Sanskrit like with जज्झती (jajjhatī)~जक्षत् (jakṣat), not from Dravidian there isnt a similar term in dr

AleksiB 1945 (talk) 21:01, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

OIA -jjh- originates from PIE *-gʰs-, not *dʰǵʰ. You also can't overlook the vowel quality. --{{victar|talk}} 00:46, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

there is Hindi झरना (jharnā) from *dʰgʷʰer- but after an e if not where does this Prakritic like word come from? AleksiB 1945 (talk) 04:44, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

RFV of the etymology. Specifically, why exactly is "from cūnctor" called "but semantically unconvincing"? I can think of two parallels:

• Etymology of English poise from Latin pēnsō
• Japanese 掛ける https://jisho.org/word/%E6%8E%9B%E3%81%91%E3%82%8B 17. to argue (in court); to deliberate (in a meeting); to present (e.g. idea to a conference, etc.)

  裁判に掛ける

  The question is before the committee.

Daniel.z.tg (talk) 08:44, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

RFV of the etymology. "(slang) to share; to show: Partly influenced by English share."

I believe this is from Cantonese 曬命／晒命 (saai³ meng⁶, “to show off”), or at least the two are related. – Wpi (talk) 11:59, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

@Wpi: Yeah, I don't think it has to do with the English word. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:56, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Since late 2007 we've said that the flower genus Papaver got its name in the 1700s when Linnaeus assigned a descriptive name based on a Latin word for milk. This is clearly not true, as the word papaver is attested classically with the exact meaning it still has today.

I suspect people have been reluctant to remove the etymology from Papaver because it is cited to two well-known botany textbooks, both of which seem inaccessible to me and to the wider Internet. I suspect that one of the following is true:

1. These books, despite their recent publication dates, are largely based on old knowledge and are in this case incorrect.
2. The books are actually speaking of the etymology of the classical Latin word; in this case, it is no more than a guess, but it is a credible one and could be listed alongside the etymologies we have on the lowercase papaver page.
3. The books don't contain speculation on the etymology of Papaver at all, other than to say it comes from the Latin word, and the additional etymology we have was taken from another source but not listed.

Does anyone have access to either of these books? The milk theory seems like a credible etymology, as I say above, for the original Latin word, though I wouldn't give it top billing either. It's worth noting that we don't list milk as one of the meanings of Latin pappa, though I can see how a word for baby food could mean milk just as much, particularly when a baby is just learning to speak. We even have the same double meaning with English pap.

Whether or not we can track down the books, I think the etymology of the Papaver page should be changed to say it comes from the classically attested Latin word, as seems plain with the knowledge we have today, even if it was codified as the scientific name by Linnaeus.

Thanks, —Soap— 12:14, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Linnaeus was often influenced by the shared apparent chemical characteristics of plants. Milky sap would be one of such features. He might well have looked beyond the Latin word itself to its origins, however speculative by our current standards. It should be possible to find reference to pappa in proximity to Papaver in some work of Linnaeus/Linne/Linnaeum/Linné/Linnæus, but I was defeated in my amateurish efforts. DCDuring (talk) 15:43, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Our etymology is indeed nonsense. Linnaeus can only be credited with the first publication of the name in modern taxonomy. His publication of the genus in Genera Plantarum references Tournefort's description of the genus, published in French in 1690 and in Latin translation in 1700 (this is the 1719 edition). His description of Papaver sominiferum in the 1753 Species Plantarum references descriptions of the species in non-Linnaean nomenclature going back to De materia medica, written by Pedanius Dioscorides in the first century AD. As you can see, he merely adapted an existing Latin name with a long history into the Linnaean system of nomenclature. Modern taxonomy of plants by definition starts with Linnaeus, but that's taxonomy, not etymology.

Another theory I've seen is that papaver got its name because it was mixed with the pap fed to infants in order to keep them quiet, though that may just be folk etymology or outdated. Chuck Entz (talk) 18:25, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

https://en.wiktionary.orghttps://dictious.com/en/papaver#Latin

Look under small-p papaver, the right answer comes up. It is an old Latin word, possibly derived from pehr- (fire). 24.108.18.81 01:20, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

I think we were allowing for why Linnaeus didn't, say, choose the Greek word for poppy instead. He might have influenced by something to do with the "milky" sap. DCDuring (talk) 01:09, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

It's a bit weird that Khalaj hulımaq - cognate with Turkish ulumak, because of their meanings (to vomit and to howl respectively)

It remains the possibility ulumak - cognate with hulımaq. Maybe yes maybe no

Maybe they're cognates 'cuz of phonetic similarities

Maybe they're not cuz of meanings

I don't think the semantic shift feels too unlikely, as you could spew out either sound or rotten food. You can compare English croak and crake with Swedish kräkas. Wakuran (talk) 11:34, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

It seems reasonable to suppose that Sanaa is derived From صَنَعَ (ṣanaʕa, “to manufacture”). Can anyone say why this should not be so? Can anyone think of a better explanation? 24.108.18.81 21:45, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia, "The name Sanaa is probably derived from the Sabaic root ṣnʿ, meaning "well-fortified"." I'm not versed enough in Semitic languages to tell whether the Arabic word would be related. Wakuran (talk) 22:03, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia mentions third-century Sabaean inscriptions, which would put the origins back to pre-Islamic times when Arabic (not to be confused with South Arabian) was just one of a number of languages spoken in the region. Chuck Entz (talk) 00:05, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Sabaean was a Semitic language, related to Arabic, so you would expect such a basic concept as "manufacture" to be similar in phonology. And "fortify" and "manufacture" are close in meaning. There does not seem to be a conflict. 24.108.18.81 00:12, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

𐩮𐩬𐩲 (ṣnʿ) means “to fortify” inasmuch as it means “work”, so “to work upon” a building, since the closer one is to the Tropics, the less there is any actual work other than occasionally collecting fruits and hunting, so of course back in the day, when machines did not afford so many jobs, construction work was the best known. You see how later it would mean “to manifacture” in Arabic; in Aramaic instead forming meanings related to plotting, scheming, acting cleverly and even putting, placing, hiding a thing, while from the direction of doing something cleverly ܨܢܥܬܐ (ṣenʕtā) parallelling Arabic صَنْعَة (ṣanʕa, “handiworks”) not only meant a dolose scheme but also a “well-crafted thing”. With Ethiopic it is clear that all goes back to Proto-West Semitic.

They probably mean this second-century inscription (of 267 Ḥimyarite era). In an Early Sabaic inscription it is apparently only the name of a wall. But I found it again as a town-name in Qatabānian, and again in Ḥaḍramitic. Due to some mythology, the Sabaeans seem more popular nowadays than the other Old-South Arabian peoples. Fay Freak (talk) 12:28, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanx for posting this at Sanaa! 24.108.18.81 18:40, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

But the longer 𐩮𐩬𐩲𐩥 (ṣnʿw) is much more copiously found, only in Sabaean. Fay Freak (talk) 12:31, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

It seems that Sabaic and Sabaean are synonyms for the same language, just in case someone would be confused. Wakuran (talk) 23:17, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

One question: Are there cites for 'Outer Manchuria' (as the 1858/1860 ceded territories) from before the English Wikipedia article in 2004? (See Citations:Outer Manchuria.) Please send me any links/books/cites you find (for all senses) that are not already at Citations:Outer Manchuria, even if you're not sure what sense they fall under. Alternately, send any arguments that I misclassified any of the cites. cf. Wikipedia:List of citogenesis incidents, Brazilian aardvark --Geographyinitiative (talk) 11:44, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

I have the same question. Never seen any mention of "Внешняя Маньчжурия" in no older Russian book. It is also very weird to use this name about non-Manchurian areas. May it be a Chinese term? Tollef Salemann (talk) 15:32, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

I have provisionally concluded that 'Outer Manchuria' referring to Russian/Soviet territory did not exist until the May 2004 Wikipedia article and that this is likely a bona fide case of citogenesis (creation of a word or sense by a Wikipedia editor who is then relied on in other sources). I think it's easy to imagine how one could see the area as 'Outer Manchuria', because there are indeed references to 'coastal' Manchuria in some works. But just because 'Manchuria' could apply to modern Manchuria in China + the territories ceded in 1858 and 1860 to Russia does not mean that those 1858 & 1860 territories were referred to as 'Outer Manchuria'-- that specific nomeclature needs independent proof. And the Google Ngrams show a sudden spike of 'Outer Manchuria' from 2004. And the cites before 2004 do not seem to think of areas inside Russia as "outer Manchuria". It's a really fun issue to look into, and it's very relevant to current events since a government office in China (PRC) recently (Feb 2023) updated their official Chinese character nomeclature usage rules for the names of eight locations inside Russia to reflect their viewpoint about the 1858 & 1860 cessions- see the recent cites on Citations:Haishenwai. I really hope you all will check my work and get to the bottom of this- I don't trust myself, but the facts *seem* to support this conclusion. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 13:43, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Proto-Vietic *p.to:jʔ.

Revisiting Vietnamese Softened Onsets Resulting from the Loss of Vietic presyllables | Mark Alves - Academia.edu

(However no further comparison with modern Vietics is provided.) 汩汩银泉 (talk) 10:37, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

RFV of the etymology. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 21:25, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

I would assume this is copied from w:Xianbei#Etymology, which references as a source for *serbi. (I can't judge the quality of the source since that area is obviously not my expertise.) – Wpi (talk) 19:15, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

@Erminwin Any idea? RcAlex36 (talk) 17:02, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: @RcAlex36: @Wpi: Given Shimunek's credentials (CV) I think Shimunek (2018) (cited by wikipedia) is a reliable source (disclosure: I edited the w:Xianbei article yet I do not remember making that edit which sourced Shimunek (2018)). The earliest source which contains the reconstruction *Särbi/Serbi is Pelliot (1928). Erminwin (talk) 02:17, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

RFV of English Etymology 2, with the sense "a turn". At present this is identified as an isolated use with Shakespeare's Sonnet VII, line 9. The current etymology reads: " However, anything other than a "turn" does not seem to make any sense within the broader context of the cited Sonnet." This isn't true: it is rather obvious that the "weary car" in question refers to the chariot of the Sun; interpretations agree on this unanimously, as far as I am aware. -蒼鳥 _{fawk. tell me if i did anything wrong.} 22:50, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Some additional remarks (partly in reply to a comment that got reverted when I was mid-replying): at Shakespeare's time, it had been a well-established poetic metaphor, sourced from and/or reinforced by the Greek myths, that the Sun rode in a chariot. For instance, WS himself used it in Richard III, 5.3, in rather reminiscent wording: "The weary sun hath made a golden set, / And by the bright track of his fiery car ." In comparison, the reading "a weary turn" feels contrived, if possible at all. It also seems phonologically ungrounded: iirc the postulated Proto-Germanic etymon would expect /t͡ʃ/ in Old English, and subsequently in Modern English as well.

At any rate, the claim that "anything other than a 'turn' does not seem to make any sense within the broader context of the cited Sonnet" is just false. (Also, an isolated use would fail Wiktionary's Criteria for Inclusion anyway, but that's neither here nor there.) 蒼鳥 _{fawk. tell me if i did anything wrong.} 17:46, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. It is certainly a reference to Greek mythology. Nicodene (talk) 22:05, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

If this word is cognate to char, etymology 3 (see char#Etymology_3) it might be turn in the sense of a move in a game, i.e. "it's your turn", and not a steering. Indeed chore seems to be a direct cognate. And yet, the cognates in other Germanic languages hint at the fact that maybe those two senses aren't so far apart after all. There is also a theory that the intensive prefix ker- developed from an unpalatalized cognate of this word, though Im skeptical. —Soap— 02:04, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

No, this was added by a user with a long history of getting things confused, so I wouldn't try too hard to scrape up an obscure etymological explanation to back them up. Remember that we're talking about a poetic figure of speech used by Shakespeare in a sonnet accompanied by other references that fit Apollo quite well. No need to look for something that would make sense if read literally. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:38, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

The use of the mythological metaphor in Richard III 5.3 clinches it.  --Lambiam 13:28, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

1026 PMK *cpaat

Shorto, H. L., Sidwell, P., Cooper, D. (linguist), & Bauer, C. (2006). A Mon-Khmer comparative dictionary. Pacific Linguistics, Research School of Pacific and Asian Studies, The Australian National University. 汩汩银泉 (talk) 08:05, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Outer Manchuria is a neologism, see this 2011 convo: Talk:Outer_Manchuria#Neologism? So: How old is 外東北-- how old is this exact terminology with reference to the 1858/1860 ceded territories? The first Baidu Baike edit is May 2006 and the first Zh Wikipedia edit is July 2005 . --Geographyinitiative (talk) 23:09, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

It is well known that "Greece" derives from Magna Graecia, the Greek settlement in southern Italy. And that this derives from Γραικός, meaning "inhabitant of Γραῖα".

I am interested to examine this Γραῖα. It appears to derive from γηραιά "the ancient (city)", which may be an honorary title rather than an actual name. If so, what and where was it?

There are 3 other names we are given:

1. Τάναγρα (ταναός + γηραιά "large ancient (city)", a variation of the above;

2. Ποιμανδρία (ποιμήν + ἀνδρός + -ία), "shepherd place";

3. Ὠρωπός (possibly "foot of the mountain" though this is debatable).

Sorting all this out, it seems that (2) is most likely the original name, as shepherd was one of the original professions. If Γραῖα was an honorary name, it may have applied to an extended area, especially considering the number of people who claimed to have originated there. In that case, all of the above may have been included in Γραῖα.

Any thoughts on this? 24.108.18.81 16:34, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Reading through Minoica (Festschrift zum 80. Geburtstag von Johannes Sundwall, de Gruyter, 1958) there's a similar Mycenaean word for a body of elders, which would be equivalent to the semantics of senate. But I am not sure it's the same and I am unsure especially as to what your question is a pro-pos "the original name" – of what, the Old World?

More recently, Michele Bianconi (“The Etymology of Gerga and the Carian Word for ‘White.’” Historische Sprachforschung / Historical Linguistics, vol. 133, Vandenhoek-Ruprecht, 2020, pp. 27–42) does not mention it, but argues that placenames of that shape exist like the proverbial sand on the beach in the Aegeis (or greater Mediterranean), if that's what you mean. 2A00:20:604A:E02:B11:2D2D:EA8E:3F01 14:36, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Discussion moved to Wiktionary:Etymology scriptorium/2023/June#PIE *méh₂trih₂ks actually from *méh₂tēr,.