Wiktionary:Information desk/2018/June

KANJIDICT is an online project with a creative commons license which allows copying with attribution. I wish to copy their translations for the (heretofore undefined) kanji 敢 From what I can tell from the help pages Wiktionary is fine with direct copying from public domain material and I have no reason to believe there would be a problem with direct importation from this resource either (though it has a creative commons license and is not public domain). For this project I believe a citation in a References section nested under the language would be sufficient. Does this work with the Wiktionary policy too? Bhbuehler (talk) 05:44, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

@Bhbuehler: IANAL, but my understanding is that attribution, ideally with a link, in a References section or even just the edit summary, should suffice for that license. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 11:33, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Thank you Μετάknowledge. You don't need to be a lawyer 😀. Copying something verbatim makes me feel uneasy (even with attribution and the correct license) so I needed a second opinion. Bhbuehler (talk) 05:03, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

In case anyone else needs this information in the future, there is also a KANJIDIC template which automatically puts a reference to the project in the appropriate place. Unfortunately it doesn't have a spot for the Heisig 6th edition number. (Only the old editions.) Bhbuehler (talk) 07:18, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

@suzukaze-c, who edited that template most recently, might be able to help. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 08:33, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Please upload information about RAAH BABA. Its a puja which is done all over BIHAR. I request you to please prove whole story or big information on Raah Baba.

राह बाबा (rāh bābā), पूजा (pūjā)

Wrong place. Please make your request at w:Wikipedia:Requested articles and hi:w:विकिपीडिया:अनुरोधित लेख. —Stephen ^(Talk) 23:13, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

If I go to a template page and click edit, there's no code. I'm trying to find the code for Template:zu-IPA.

Smashhoof2 (talk) 04:41, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

When you see #invoke that means there's a Lua module being used, in this case Module:zu-IPA. DTLHS (talk) 04:43, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Is there such a thing as giving a user special rights for a limited amount of time (like 48 hours)? I think I've seen it on Wikipedia before. (I need to move a bunch of entries to fix an orthography thing, and it would be nice to not leave a ton of redirects the poor admins have to delete). No worries if admin rights are restricted to admins only :-) — Julia ☺ ☆ ^{• formerly Gormflaith •} 00:23, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

@Julia: From a technical perspective, it's easy to grant someone a userright briefly. Policy-wise, I also don't think it's a big deal. My concern is that you may be a little off on what your task is in this particular instance: it's okay to have alternate orthographies or spellings (e.g. yogurt and yoghurt or Bahai, Baha'i and Bahá'í). Can you give me an idea of what you have in mind? —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 00:30, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

@Koavf: Moving all verb that end with "n" in Category:Alemannic German verbs (that don't have another language on the page of course). I've created 100% of them. The "silent n" is not used outside of dictionaries, and is only there to show a historical connection to Middle High German forms. See this discussion on my user page for more details. — Julia ☺ ☆ ^{• formerly Gormflaith •} 00:37, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

@Julia: Oh, well this seems very sensible then. Meine Deutsche nicht ist gut, so I'm not qualified to say anything about whether or not High Alemannic infinitives ended in -n, so if other knowledgeable contributors agree and you made the pages in the first place, it seems reasonable to me. en.wp has a page mover role that we don't have here which allows you to move a page without creating a redirect (i.e. you can delete a page when doing a move), so the only options I see are 1.) having a bot with admin abilities do it or 2.) having a bureaucrat give you admin privileges for 48 hours (which again, is a totally doable thing). —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 00:42, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

@Koavf: Honestly admin rights would be easier, because as I go through I can check WhatLinksHere, fix those, and I want to add a template as I go through. I probably will be done by like 04:00 UTC tonight or if not 14:00 (tomorrow morning for me), so you or someone else can take it away then. — Julia ☺ ☆ ^{• formerly Gormflaith •} 01:04, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

@Julia I'm an admin but not a bureaucrat. That's a user access level I cannot grant. But changing them comes with the option for them to expire, so no one even needs to deliberately take it away again. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:49, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

@Koavf I'll ask a bureaucrat tomorrow, then. Thanks for the help. — Julia ☺ ☆ ^{• formerly Gormflaith •} 02:34, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

@Julia, I've given you temporary admin powers for this purpose. They will expire automatically in one week. —Stephen ^(Talk) 07:24, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

@Stephen G. Brown Thanks so much. – — Julia ☺ ☆ ^{• formerly Gormflaith •} 11:50, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

@Stephen G. Brown Or maybe should I say thank you so much myself instead, as you gave the rights to me: Special:log/rights/Stephen G. Brown. I let you fix that. Haha :-) — Automatik (talk) 16:34, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Fixed. Wow, how weird. When I started to add Julia's bit, I decided to check on something and clicked out. Then I clicked back to Julia's page and added the bit without looking at the name. Obviously I clicked too far. Thanks for the headsup. —Stephen ^(Talk) 21:00, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

In many of the Wiktionary entries for Estonian I find “(genitive , partitive ) and “This adjective, noun, numeral etc needs an inflection-table template”. These are obviously requests that people have made for the stated forms but for some strange reason nobody ever provides them. I have provided the requested forms but my contributions have been ignored. What is the point of requesting something and ignoring it when it is provided? Here are the forms for teine (second, other, another) and a few other Estonian nouns. Will someone please enter them in Wiktionary instead of ignoring them?

Genitive singular: teise

Partitive singular: teist

Remaining forms:-

Illative singular: teisesse, teise

Inessive singular: teises

Elative singular: teisest

Allative singular: teisele

Adessive singular: teisel

Ablative singular: teiselt

Translative singular: teiseks

Terminative singular: teiseni

Essive singular: teisena

Abessive singular: teiseta

Comitative singular: teisega

Nominative plural: teised

Genitive plural: teiste

Partitive plural: teisi

Illative plural: teistesse

Inessive plural: teistes

Elative plural: teistest

Allative plural: teistele

Adessive plural: teistel

Ablative plural: teistelt

Translative plural: teisteks

Terminative plural: teisteni

Essive plural: teistena

Abessive plural: teisteta

Comitative plural: teistega

kapp (cupboard, wardrobe)

Genitive singular: kapi

Partitive singular: kappi

Remaining forms:-

Illative singular: kapisse, kappi

Inessive singular: kapis

Elative singular: kapist

Allative singular: kapile

Adessive singular: kapil

Ablative singular: kapilt

Translative singular: kapiks

Terminative singular: kapini

Essive singular: kapina

Abessive singular: kapita

Comitative singular: kapiga

Nominative plural: kapid

Genitive plural: kappide

Partitive plural: kappe, kappisid

Illative plural: kappidesse

Inessive plural: kappides

Elative plural: kappidest

Allative plural: kappidele

Adessive plural: kappidel

Ablative plural: kappidelt

Translative plural: kappideks

Terminative plural: kappideni

Essive plural: kappidena

Abessive plural: kappideta

Comitative plural: kappidega

kael (neck)

Genitive singular: kaela

Partitive singular: kaela

Remaining forms:-

Illative singular: kaelasse, kaela

Inessive singular: kaelas

Elative singular: kaelast

Allative singular: kaelale

Adessive singular: kaelal

Ablative singular: kaelalt

Translative singular: kaelaks

Terminative singular: kaelani

Essive singular: kaelana

Abessive singular: kaelata

Comitative singular: kaelaga

Nominative plural: kaelad

Genitive plural: kaelade, kaelte

Partitive plural: kaelu

Illative plural: kaeladesse

Inessive plural: kaelades

Elative plural: kaeladest

Allative plural: kaeladele

Adessive plural: kaeladel

Ablative plural: kaeladelt

Translative plural: kaeladeks

Terminative plural: kaeladeni

Essive plural: kaeladena

Abessive plural: kaeladeta

Comitative plural: kaeladega

Does nael (nail, pound) follow the same pattern as kael? Please check whether naelte occurs as one of the forms of the genitive plural or whether there is only the one form, naelade.

nael (nail, pound)

Genitive singular: naela

Partitive singular: naela

Remaining forms:-

Illative singular: naelasse, naela

Inessive singular: naelas

Elative singular: naelast

Allative singular: naelale

Adessive singular: naelal

Ablative singular: naelalt

Translative singular: naelaks

Terminative singular: naelani

Essive singular: naelana

Abessive singular: naelata

Comitative singular: naelaga

Nominative plural: naelad

Genitive plural: naelade, naelte

Partitive plural: naelu

Illative plural: naeladesse

Inessive plural: naelades

Elative plural: naeladest

Allative plural: naeladele

Adessive plural: naeladel

Ablative plural: naeladelt

Translative plural: naeladeks

Terminative plural: naeladeni

Essive plural: naeladena

Abessive plural: naeladeta

Comitative plural: naeladega

kuld (gold)

Genitive singular: kulla

Partitive singular: kulda

Remaining forms:-

Illative singular: kullasse, kulda

Inessive singular: kullas

Elative singular: kullast

Allative singular: kullale

Adessive singular: kullal

Ablative singular: kullalt

Translative singular: kullaks

Terminative singular: kullani

Essive singular: kullana

Abessive singular: kullata

Comitative singular: kullaga

One would have thought that this is a mass noun and as such has only singular forms. However, apparently plural forms occur. If desired, they are as follows:

Nominative plural: kullad

Genitive plural: kuldade

Partitive plural: kuldasid, kuldi

Illative plural: kuldadesse

Inessive plural: kuldades

Elative plural: kuldadest

Allative plural: kuldadele

Adessive plural: kuldadel

Ablative plural: kuldadelt

Translative plural: kuldadeks

Terminative plural: kuldadeni

Essive plural: kuldadena

Abessive plural: kuldadeta

Comitative plural: kuldadega

— This unsigned comment was added by Johnling60 (talk • contribs).

Sorry if it seems like we're ignoring you. Someone who knows Estonian needs to work on these. @Strombones is one of our Estonian editors. To add these forms, we have to use Estonian templates, such as one found here: Category:Estonian declension-table templates. Maybe User:Strombones could show you how to use the Estonian templates, and then you could add these forms yourself. —Stephen ^(Talk) 05:20, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Yep, noun inflection is all covered by templates. Verb templates have a few holes (like pidama, which has an irregular passive; there's no verb template for irregular verbs as far as I know). To see a noun's type, consult the ÕS - here's the page for "teine" - as you can see, it is type "oluline", and we have a template for it. It's just not been added to that specific page. For nouns with 2 declension types I usually just add 2 declension tables. For "nael", it is both type "hein" and type "leib". (in this case this is because it has 3 different partitive plurals - "naelu", "naeli", and "naelasid") Nouns also have an irregular template, as seen in lühida, which doesn't have a singular nominative. Strombones (talk) 09:12, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

keetma (to boil, to cook) - transitive

Presumably the conjugation of this verb will follow that of saatma (to accompany, to escort, to send), therefore the forms are as follows:

Present indicative active:

Singular: 1st person: keedan 2nd person: keedad 3rd person: keedab Plural: 1st person: keedame 2nd person: keedate 3rd person: keedavad Negative: ei keeda Passive positive: keedetakse Passive negative: ei keedeta

Past indicative active:

Singular: 1st person: keetsin 2nd person: keetsid 3rd person: keetis Plural: 1st person: keetsime 2nd person: keetsite 3rd person: keetsid Negative: ei keetnud Passive positive: keedeti Passive negative: ei keedetud

Perfect indicative active:

Singular: 1st person: olen keetnud 2nd person: oled keetnud 3rd person: on keetnud Plural: 1st person: oleme keetnud 2nd person: olete keetnud 3rd person: on keetnud Negative: ei ole keetnud, pole keetnud Passive positive: on keedetud Passive negative: ei ole keedetud, pole keedetud

Pluperfect indicative:

Singular: 1st person: olin keetnud 2nd person: olid keetnud 3rd person: oli keetnud Plural: 1st person: olime keetnud 2nd person: olite keetnud 3rd person: olid keetnud Negative: ei olnud keetnud, polnud keetnud Passive positive: oli keedetud Passive negative: ei olnud keedetud, polnud keedetud

Conditional present active:

Singular: 1st person: keedaksin 2nd person: keedaksid 3rd person: keedaks Plural: 1st person: keedaksime 2nd person: keedaksite 3rd person: keedaksid Negative: ei keedaks Passive positive: keedetaks Passive negative: ei keedetaks

Conditional perfect active:

Singular: 1st person: oleksin keetnud 2nd person: oleksid keetnud 3rd person: oleks keetnud Plural: 1st person: oleksime keetnud 2nd person: oleksite keetnud 3rd person: oleksid keetnud Negative: ei oleks saatnud, poleks keetnud Passive positive: oleks keedetud Passive negative: ei oleks keedetud, poleks keedetud

Imperative present positive:

Singular: 2nd person: keeda 3rd person: keetku Plural: 1st person: keetkem 2nd person: keetke 3rd person: keetku Passive: keedetagu

Imperative present negative:

Singular: 2nd person: ära keeda 3rd person: ärgu keetku Plural: 1st person: ärgem keetkem 2nd person: ärge keetke 3rd person: ärgu keetku Passive: ärgu keedetagu

Imperative perfect positive:

Singular: 3rd person: olgu keetnud Plural: 3rd person: olgu keetnud Passive: olgu keedetud

Imperative perfect negative:

Singular: 3rd person: ärgu olgu keetnud Plural: 3rd person: ärgu olgu keetnud Passive: ärgu olgu keedetud

Quotative present:

Active positive: keetvat Passive positive: keedetavat Active negative: ei keetvat Passive negative: ei keedetavat

Quotative perfect:

Active positive: olevat keetnud Passive positive: olevat keedetud Active negative: ei olevat keetnud, polevat keetnud Passive negative: ei olevat keedetud, polevat keedetud

Nominal forms:

ma-infinitive active: Nominative: keetma Inessive: keetmas Elative: keetmast Translative: keetmaks Abessive: keetmata ma-infinitive passive: keedetama da-infinitive: da-form: keeta des-form: keetes

Participles:

Present active: keetev Present passive: keedetav Past active: keetnud Past passive: keedetud

Please check that all the above forms are correct then create an inflection table template with the complete conjugation of this verb. Johnling60 (talk) 00:09, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

külmkapp (refrigerator)

Genitive singular: külmkapi

Partitive singular: külmkappi

Remaining forms:-

Illative singular: külmkapisse, külmkappi

Inessive singular: külmkapis

Elative singular: külmkapist

Allative singular: külmkapile

Adessive singular: külmkapil

Ablative singular: külmkapilt

Translative singular: külmkapiks

Terminative singular: külmkapini

Essive singular: külmkapina

Abessive singular: külmkapita

Comitative singular: külmkapiga

Nominative plural: külmkapid

Genitive plural: külmkappide

Partitive plural: külmkappe, külmkappisid

Illative plural: külmkappidesse

Inessive plural: külmkappides

Elative plural: külmkappidest

Allative plural: külmkappidele

Adessive plural: külmkappidel

Ablative plural: külmkappidelt

Translative plural: külmkappideks

Terminative plural: külmkappideni

Essive plural: külmkappidena

Abessive plural: külmkappideta

Comitative plural: külmkappidega

Johnling60 (talk) 00:23, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Please create an inflection table template for kael (neck) and complete with the declension already given. Johnling60 (talk) 00:33, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

I felt that some of the text in the section List of headings was particularly unclear, in the sense that a reader would not get the intended meaning unless they already knew it. So I devised a replacement text. I cannot apply it myself; the page is locked to prevent editing. "View source" calls up a text that suggests recommending any additions or changes to the page on its talkpage. Which I duly did, here: Wiktionary talk:Entry layout#Indentation?. That was three-and-a-half months ago, but nothing happened.  --Lambiam 16:31, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

As the top of the page says, any change requires discussion, and any major change requires a vote. The forum designated for policy discussion is the Beer parlour; you can try posting your suggested changes there. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 11:31, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

 Done: posted at the Beer parlour.  --Lambiam 21:06, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

raha (money, currency) Genitive singular: raha Partitive singular: raha Remaining forms:- Illative singular: rahasse, rahha Inessive singular: rahas Elative singular: rahast Allative singular: rahale Adessive singular: rahal Ablative singular: rahalt Translative singular: rahaks Terminative singular: rahani Essive singular: rahana Abessive singular: rahata Comitative singular: rahaga Nominative plural: rahad Genitive plural: rahade Partitive plural: rahasid Illative plural: rahadesse Inessive plural: rahades Elative plural: rahadest Allative plural: rahadele Adessive plural: rahadel Ablative plural: rahadelt Translative plural: rahadeks Terminative plural: rahadeni Essive plural: rahadena Abessive plural: rahadeta Comitative plural: rahadega Johnling60 (talk) 17:18, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Why has nobody created an inflection table template for this word despite the fact that the full declension is available on the information desk? Johnling60 (talk) 17:21, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

There's only a few nouns with this exact type (both hein and leib), so there's really no point imo in making a special template for just this case. Strombones (talk) 17:29, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

The past participle of einchecken is eingecheckt, not eincheckt. According to duden.de --79.138.78.24 09:42, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

 Done  --Lambiam 11:16, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Do we have a category for mental illness terms like insanity, madness, delusion, etc.? ---> Tooironic (talk) 05:48, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

There is Category:Psychiatry. Wyang (talk) 06:45, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Frank. That's helpful. ---> Tooironic (talk) 08:48, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

self-entitlement

The entry for the word prolly currently states that it is an “Eye dialect spelling of probably.” That is wrong, because the definition of eye dialect (even its etymology) includes the notion of standard pronunciation, whereas none of the documented possible pronunciations of probably omit the second “b”.

I would correct it but I don't know what to put instead.

Does anyone know what is the proper designation of the phenomenon in question? Is prolly simply a corruption of probably? I find that the definition of corruption (in the linguistics context) is not an ideal match for this need. — This unsigned comment was added by 96.22.66.24 (talk) at 16:06, 23 June 2018 (UTC).

Maybe the correct category for this would be English pronunciation spellings. There were discussions about the fact that words are categorized eye dialect are often actually pronunciation spellings at Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2016/March § Eye dialect and Wiktionary:Tea room/2016/October § eye dialect. — Eru·tuon 23:23, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

In this case, I wouldn't even say it's a pronunciation (re)spelling, I would say it's a clipping of sorts, basically a new word, like tarp is not a respelling but a derived synonym of tarpaulin. - -sche (discuss) 01:37, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

I don't agree. I believe the pronunciation /ˈpɹɒ.li/ instead of /ˈpɹɑbli/ is the result of poor or lazy articulation, as when a speaker is very tired or drunk.

One may distinguish four possibilities (other than typos):

1. pronunciation standard, spelling standard;
2. pronunciation standard, spelling non-standard but "phonetic": pronunciation respelling and eye dialect;
3. pronunciation non-standard, spelling standard: spelling pronunciation;
4. pronunciation non-standard, spelling non-standard but "phonetic": pronunciation spelling.

An example of case 3 is /ˈɔftən/ for often. I would put prolly squarely in case 4. Another example of case 4 is nucular.  --Lambiam 01:50, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

At Category:XXXX participles (e.g. at Cat:GreekPRTP) I read: ... verbs not fully conjugated, usually to be used in compound conjugations. I cannot understand this. Could it be rephrased? for less learned readers? Like:

• at wiktionary participle: A form of a verb that may function as an adjective or noun
• at wikipedia w:participle: A form of a verb that /is used in a sentence to modify a noun, noun phrase, verb, or verb phrase, and/ plays a role similar to an adjective or adverb
• at SIL: a lexical item, derived from a verb, that has some of the characteristics and functions of both verbs and adjectives.

At Category:XXX participle forms (e.g. at Cat:Gr.PRTCPforms) I read ...participles that are inflected to display grammatical relations other than the main form.

• maybe: Xxxx inflectional forms of participles? (or something like that?)

Thank you sarri.greek (talk) 17:03, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

Even though the verb of which a participle is a form may, semantically speaking, have a subject, in most languages the subject does not affect the verb form, also in many languages that otherwise indicate the person of the subject in verb conjugations. So while you say, "I am happy and he is happy too", in "my being happy and his being happy are not the same" the form does not change. I suspect that that may be the intention behind "not fully conjugated". I do not understand the intended meaning of the phrase "used in compound conjugations" – or, for that matter, the meaning of "compound conjugation". So a bit of rephrasing may be indicated. The confusion about whether a participle may function as a noun (Wiktionary) or not (other sources) may be due to the particular role of the English gerund. It is a verb form classified (by modern, "linguistically informed" grammarians) as a participle, while it functions, grammatically, rather as a noun. For example, "Even at the Kurdish wedding feasts, I had not seen such merry dancing in circles." Here, dancing, classified as a noun on our Wiktionary, is actually a gerund, and thus (if you believe these informed grammarians) a participle.

So it would seem that a participle is a verb form that may function, grammatically, as an adjective, adverb, or noun. However, which of such verb forms in a given language are actually considered participles depends on the tradition in the grammatical studies of the language in question. A boilerplate text for all languages is presumably not helpful. In German, an infinitive like Essen can serve as a noun, but I don't think German grammarians would call it a participle – presumably because they aimed to apply the traditional concepts of Latin grammar to German, and the Latin grammarians did not call the infinitive a participle. I guess.  --Lambiam 01:09, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

"Compound conjugation" refers, I think, to "am going", "are going", "will be going", "was going", where going is only part of verb. I think "not fully conjugated" is the more confusing part of the label, and would just drop it as unhelpful/unnecessary. Frankly, perhaps the whole thing should be dropped and replaced with " participles", letting our entry explain what participles are. - -sche (discuss) 01:41, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

I agree. Participles are so many things in so many languages that it would require an essay to fit every language that has them. I still have trouble wrapping my head around some of the uses of Ancient Greek participles, for instance. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:54, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

I believe the concept of compound conjugation as explained above is very much not language-agnostic. Turkish has a rich set of participles, but nothing comparable to such "compound" conjugations.

Assuming there is decent text at "]", referring there would be an improvement in clarity, but these entries might be hit by SOP objections. And as far as I see, we have exactly zero such entries: no Latin participles, no Greek participles, no English participles. So why not put the appropriate texts that would have to be created anyway directly on the category pages?  --Lambiam 02:06, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

"English participle" would certainly be SOP: the definition should be at participle. Why put definitions on category pages and not in the appropriate entry? Any information which is not definitional to "participle" but rather language-specific could go on the language's About page. The category boilerplate text is, as far as I know, boilerplate applied to all participles. - -sche (discuss) 02:48, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Who's to say we should house a language-agnostic comprehensive explanation in mainspace? Either make an appendix and link to it, or link to Wikipedia. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:06, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

The L3 header 'Ideophone' was approved and added to WT:EL, but Category:Chichewa ideophones still throws an error. Where am I supposed to add this? —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 21:09, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

I would assume you would add it into one of the poscatboiler data modules (Module:category_tree/poscatboiler/data). SURJECTION _{·talk·contr·log·} 21:13, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks! Apparently it belongs at Module:category tree/poscatboiler/data/lemmas. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 23:42, 29 June 2018 (UTC)