Wiktionary:Information desk/2018/September

How do I signal a challenge to a grammatical affix that is only stored in a Lua module? Can I raise a tea room topic? To make matters more complicated, the affix appears in a separate module for each of the half dozen or so scripts the language is regularly written in. If a tea room topic is appropriate, should I attempt to raise the challenge in each of the modules, or just the most important one? If my doubts are confirmed, pages will have minor edits rather than being deleted. -- RichardW57 (talk) 00:51, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Would it be terribly obtuse to ask you to name the affix you are unhappy about. Equinox ◑ 00:57, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Pali dative singular in -atthaṃ for masculine and neuter a-stems, which I cannot find in my grammars. They only give -assa and semantically dodgy -āya for these stems. The main module is Module:pi-decl/noun/Latn; there are 8 other modules, which appear to have less use. I would be less bothered if I only had to change one or two master entries, but gluing on the affixes is fiddly, as the writing systems and their encodings variably use implicit vowels and visual non-phonetic order, and so each script has its own list of affixes.

(See w:User:RichardW57m for my aliases.) RichardW57m (talk) 12:43, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Whew, I suppose you can't RFV the guts of a module because it isn't an entry. I would suggest you use the proficiency templates to find any active users who are familiar with Pali, and start a discussion with them. Equinox ◑ 22:45, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Pinging users who have edited Module:pi-decl/noun and its submodule: @Octahedron80, @AryamanA. — Eru·tuon 01:21, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

The affixes are collected from the textbook. And it has every possible forms (because they are needed in poetry). I don't know how do you learn it but let's see Wikibooks. -atthaṃ is อตฺถํ you said. For verb, I gave up because there are totally near-hundred of forms. By the way, every rule has exception; some special words are not dealt with yet. --Octahedron80 (talk) 01:54, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Self-taught, I'm afraid, and not very proficient. I started work on a Hunspell-using spell-checker with a view to puzzling out Lanna Pali texts, as modern Pali seems to largely separate words by spaces. I had a list of 966,668 'words' sorted by frequency, which I've used to clarify matters. I used Duroiselle, "Mazard's version of Mason's..." and a new book I've actually bought, Steven Collins' A Pali Grammar for Students; all fail to mention any such case ending. Duroiselle is reported to have taken into account relatively recent versions of Pali, such as chronicles. The best I can come up with is that the accusative of Pali Text Society (1921–1925) “atha”, in Pali-English Dictionary‎, London: Chipstead can function as a postposition, and that often it forms a compound with the preceding noun instead. That would give the appearance of a dative case ending, but to count it as a case ending I'd want to be confident that tolerable Pali could have:

adjective_in_dative + noun_compounded_with_attha_in_the_accusative

That test assumes that adjectives don't compound with atthaṃ when they're qualifying nouns.

So where did the former user 'Khun panya' get the ending from? His Holiness's work?

On further digging, it seems that the dative singular in -atthaṃ is part of the Thai Pali grammatical tradition. - RichardW57 (talk) 08:07, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

You've missed that neuter plural nouns can form their nominative, vocative and accusative plural as though they were masculine nouns. I don't know what happens to their accompanying adjectives - could the adjective and noun appear to disagree in gender in the NVA plural?

I think we need to set up a database module for irregular noun inflections - some of the ablatives of a-declension nouns in -so and -to do seem to be real ablatives. I'd like to just set up a master entry in one script - we have eight scripts to support already, and inflections have only a very limited variation between scripts. Round AA v. tall AA is the worst complication to handle, though there are a few differences that would show up in Romanisation.

I was getting a lot of sandhi with ca, eva, api, and iti, and had added them to my spelling checker's inflection tables. If I hadn't suspended work, I would have added attā to the spell checker's adjective inflections ('vuttattā' was the commonest instance) - but I wouldn't have called it a case ending! - RichardW57 (talk) 19:21, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

@Octahedron80, @AryamanA, @Erutuon - RichardW57 (talk) 19:30, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

About tall AA of Myanmar and Lanna, it is stricted only to put after some consonants; it cannot be put anywhere or interchangeable with round AA. I already have logic to adjust that. --Octahedron80 (talk) 01:39, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Unfortunately, @Octahedron80, it is not as simple as that. In the Thai Tham script, there are five consonants which everyone who uses tall AA agrees should in general be followed by tall AA: BA (non-Lao Pali <p>), WA (Pali <v>), LOW TA (Pali <d>), LOW THA (Pali <dh>), and LOW KA (Pali <g>). There are differences of opinion as to LOW PA (Pali <b>) - the MFL uses tall AA after it, but Wyn Owen reports that the Tai Khuen don't. I've a feeling some people add HIGH CA (Pali <c>) to the list, but I haven't seen that in action. I've heard of a strange rule (may be it's the wrong way round) that tall AA should not be used in Northern Thai words of Pali/Sanskrit origin. The next problem is the exceptions to the rule. I believe it doesn't apply before spacing subscripts. This is an exception in the MFL, but perhaps Northern Thai and Pali behave differently. By this rule, the spelling of byagghā 'tigers' will depend on the shape of the subscript <gh>. (It may show up sooner in the nominative singular byaggho.) The existence of these different rules is why they are encoded differently in Unicode, though I'm sure the precedent of the recent disunification in the Myanmar script also affected thinking. In the MFL, <pr> and <br> also lack tall AA, but these are mostly native or Sanskrit words. Finally, Wiktionary is supposed to support common misspellings, so we can't appeal to grammar rules to eliminate alternative spelling styles! - RichardW57m (talk) 11:04, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

The Northern Thai Dictionary of Palm-Leaf Manuscripts uses round AA after LOW PA. So does the neat handwritten text in Bunkhit Wachrasat's big blue book. When we look at Pali, the only consolation is that many of the opportunities for variation in the rules vanish - but there're enough there. We may even need to look at variation in the realisation of -tth-. While you'd think the subscript should be encoded <SAKOT, HIGH THA>, we're liable to find <SIGN HIGH RATHA OR LOW PA> and even <SAKOT, LOW THA>! We may need the Lana4 parameter when invoking {{pi-alt}} - and perhaps we need some displayable attributes, such as 'deprecated'. - RichardW57 (talk) 16:58, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

@Octahedron80: See the quotes supporting ᨻᩩᨴ᩠ᨵ (buddha). Both round and tall AA occur after the stem. - RichardW57 (talk) 02:31, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

I've also read a small book in Northern Thai that entirely lacked tall AA. - RichardW57m (talk) 09:43, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

The usage of tall AA is already standardised. If you read old and unstandardised version, you surely met random round/tall AA. The reason tall AA is used because to distinguish forms against other consonants that have same final curve. For example, <ga> must be always followed by <tall aa> because <ga>+<round aa> looks like <ka>. <va> must use <tall aa> to distinguish from <ta>. etc. In case of cluster, shape of aa is considered by the first consonant at the top of stack. So <byaggha> you said then must be followed by <tall aa> since it has <ga> on top. I have Northern Thai dictionay either. --Octahedron80 (talk) 02:05, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

By the way, you can still add manual alternatives in the "pi-alt" template for some obsolete forms; I already think about those. And I also recommend to include automated form as modern one. --Octahedron80 (talk) 02:38, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

One of the reasons for the Myanmar script's disunification is that the rules have changed in Burmese; Christian materials still tend to use the old rule. If Burmese Pali has had the same rule change, then there will be different forms for old Burmese Pali and modern Burmese Pali. - RichardW57m (talk) 09:43, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

@Octahedron80 If you read Phaya Luang Maha Sena's Learn fast to read Tham characters in Lao Texts (ແບບຣຽນໄວ ເຫຼັ້ມສອງ ຣຽນອ່ານໝັງສືທັມ ຂຽນເປັນພາສາບາລີ), you'll find that any international Pali word that can be written with tall AA can also be written with round AA in some region. That doesn't mean that sabbadā can be written with subscript LOW PA and round AA. - RichardW57 (talk) 08:07, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Fix the error on Pyraminxes for me please. Torrent01 (talk) 11:02, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

• It was fixed before you asked. SemperBlotto (talk) 11:10, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Does Wiktionary have a "one-person-per-account" rule like in w:WP:NOSHARE? — This unsigned comment was added by Torrent01 (talk • contribs).

No. DTLHS (talk) 00:58, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

In other words, I can let family and friends use this account if I like? Torrent01 (talk) 09:36, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

You will be held accountable for all ensuing mishaps.  --Lambiam 12:20, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

If I were you, I wouldn't have told us about it, TBH. BTW, what's our sockpuppet policy anyway? --XY3999 (talk) 06:14, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Why can there be a summer's day and a winter's day but not a spring's day or an autumn's day? Equinox ◑ 00:55, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Who says there can't be? DTLHS (talk) 03:40, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Google does: I searched for "spring's day", and it gave me the results for "spring day" instead because "spring's day" had only about 300 hits, while "spring day" had over a million. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:51, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

And how is that relevant? , , , . DTLHS (talk) 05:11, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Well, it is totally normal and natural to say the first two, but the second two sound weird and wrong — perhaps only in my local British English? I suspect more widely. Equinox ◑ 05:49, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

The same in Canada. "Spring's day" sounds like something a non-native speaker would say. Only "spring day" and "fall day" seem natural (or "autumn day," but we prefer "fall" in Canada). Conversely, "summer day" and "winter day" sound fine (and are more likely to be used in speech than the possessive forms). Andrew Sheedy (talk) 14:17, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

I have a couple of questions about a type of noun phrase that consists of a possessive or genitive element, a gerund and a direct object. For instance: "The hunters' shooting large game roused a passionate diversity of opinion." Any potential for ambiguity aside, is this considered informal or regional as opposed to the hunters' shooting of large game or the hunters shooting large game? Is there a term for this kind of construct? Could this also work for indirect objects (e.g. "The assembly has approved their giving the victims support", which doesn't sound too flash to me)? ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 13:01, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

The issue becomes a bit clearer if the term for the agent does not end on an s, so that one can also hear the difference. “In 1984, the U.S. Congress passed a bill that limited the insanity definition to the defendant not knowing that he was acting wrongfully.” Or, “In 1984, the U.S. Congress passed a bill that limited the insanity definition to the defendant’s not knowing that he was acting wrongfully.” Aristotle said that “the pride of man proceeds from his not knowing himself.” Here, you cannot insert “of”: ✲“his not knowing of himself.” I see no problem with indirect objects, as in, “I expressed my uneasiness at his giving me so often the appellation of yahoo, an odious animal, for which I had so utter an hatred and contempt.” (Jonathan Swift, Gulliver's Travels – To the Houyhnhms.) I do not know the answers to the other questions.  --Lambiam 02:08, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

There's a Korean manhwa named "Angry" or "앵그리".

My question:

• Is "앵그리" just a transliteration of the English word "angry"?

Thanks in advance. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 21:25, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

I think so. It is used in many titles in hangul that are obviously transliterated English, like the titles of Angry Mom (앵그리맘) and Angry Birds (앵그리버드).  --Lambiam 00:40, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

I have babel on my user page. Am I doing it right? Torrent01 (talk) 09:35, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Looks good to me! Andrew Sheedy (talk) 14:18, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Like wicked, sick, ill (in hip-hop), perhaps gnarly, and bad itself. Has this been studied at all? Is it for example some kind of linguistic revolt against the dominant culture (or parents/school!) by using words to mean their opposites — but in that case, why do positive words like "sweet", "lovely", "good" not end up meaning "bad"? Equinox ◑ 22:11, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

And when do we have to categorize such words as contranyms? Fay Freak (talk) 08:19, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

terrible can be confusing too. Per utramque cavernam 08:31, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, I know how to cook a real mean steak. It’s terrific.  --Lambiam 11:38, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

And then there's using awfully as an intensifier for positive adjectives. Though since awful itself started out more positive than negative (“provoking awe”), maybe it's not in the same category. — Eru·tuon 19:24, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

In some cases, like "awfully" and "wicked", I wonder if the words were initially intensifiers for negative adjectives, and then became general intensifiers. Mitt Romney once described himself as "severely conservative" evidently intending "severely" to have positive or neutral connotations instead of the negative ones it often has. And you can still use both as intensifiers for negatives: "that's awfully rude", "wicked ugly", etc. - -sche (discuss) 21:22, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Oxford wrote a bit about the history of inverted meanings, but not much about the why. - -sche (discuss) 21:22, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

I made Appendix:Hip hop slang and have always meant to expound upon it. My recollection is that it's 1.) ironic and 2.) a way of "taking back" language that denigrated African-Americans' music. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 06:29, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Prompted by a question on the feedback page, I was wondering: are the adjective senses we list over at pet not just attributive uses of the noun? — Mnemosientje (t · c) 16:28, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Which noun sense could be used for the professor's "pet theory"? It's not an animal or a darling person. Equinox ◑ 17:17, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

It's metaphorical use of the "darling" sense, though the "pet rock" sense is the "animal" sense, as would be "pet hamster". Chuck Entz (talk) 18:54, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

I think it's sufficiently common and distinct from the noun sense to merit a definition as an adjective. If I were a non-native speaker who was unfamiliar with that usage, I probably wouldn't immediately understand it solely based on the noun senses. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 19:11, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

On the global usage list, why isn't Wiktionary listed? Torrent01 (talk) 22:30, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

If the domain name is en.wiktionary.org (https://en.wiktionary.orgview_image.php?q=Wiktionary:Information_desk/2018/September&sq=Wiktionary:Information_desk/2018/September&lang=en&file=File:Pyraminx_solved.jpg), en.wiktionary is the previous section. —Suzukaze-c◇◇ 22:33, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

The usage list is for "other wikis". DTLHS (talk) 22:34, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

I think it's Latin; what does it mean? Thanks. --J. Wiwat (talk) 15:36, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

• It's Italian, borrowed into English - see chiaroscuro. SemperBlotto (talk) 15:38, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

What's the procedure for getting rid of garbage citations that are mere mentions and can't reasonably be verified? Like this one?  ? Can I take them to RfD or something? 83.216.93.76 07:55, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

You can remove it but you should replace it with something better. DTLHS (talk) 16:29, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

I am unfamiliar with editing Wiktionary. The entry for practice, practice, practice is incomplete at best. There should be mention of the origin (punchline to "How do I get to Carnegie Hall?"). Here is a good source:

• Pollak, Michael (November 27, 2009). "The Origins of That Carnegie Hall Joke". nytimes.com. The New York Times Company.

My apologies for this drive-by post; it is unlikely that I'll find my way back to this page. --2606:A000:1126:4CA:0:98F2:CFF6:1782 17:20, 25 September 2018 (UTC)