Wiktionary:Votes/2021-02/Moving Novial entries to the Appendix

Voting on: Moving all Novial entries from mainspace to Appendix space, e.g. chokolate#Novial to Appendix:Novial/chokolate. All Novial translations in mainspace would also be removed, but Novial could still be linked to in other contexts. Novial would also be moved from the “excluded except” list to the “should have lexicons in the Appendix namespace” list at WT:CFI#Constructed languages.

Rationale: Novial was devised by Otto Jespersen in 1928, barely used by anyone beside him, and then ceased to see regular use with his death in 1943. One person using a language for 15 years hardly seems deserving of mainspace inclusion. Furthermore, under the new CFI for appendix-only constructed languages, Novial entries would have a good chance of surviving if they get sent to RFV, whereas they would likely all be deleted under mainspace rules.

Schedule:

• Vote starts: 23:00, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
• Vote ends: 23:59, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
• Vote created: —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 06:17, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

Discussion:

• Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2019/January#Novial entries are all lacking citations
• Wiktionary:Votes/2019-01/Moving Novial entries to the Appendix
• Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2020-12/CFI for appendix-only conlangs
• Wiktionary talk:Votes/2021-02/Moving Novial entries to the Appendix

1. Support —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 23:06, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
2. Support Fay Freak (talk) 23:48, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
3. Support. There has been at least one other prolific contributor in Novial since then, but that's still not a vibrant speaker community by a long shot. ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 08:53, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
4. Support — فين أخاي ^{(تكلم معاي · ما ساهمت)} 08:54, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
5. Support —Thadh (talk) 11:38, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
6. Support. Imetsia (talk) 15:24, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
7. Support. Ultimateria (talk) 18:48, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
8. Support --DannyS712 (talk) 01:06, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
9. Support — Dentonius 07:50, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
10. Support Allahverdi Verdizade (talk) 12:59, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
11. Support, --Robbie SWE (talk) 16:38, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
12. Support --Droigheann (talk) 09:07, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
13. Support 🔥शब्दशोधक🔥 15:45, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
14. Support Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 13:47, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
15. Support --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 22:52, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
16. Support --Numberguy6 (talk) 02:32, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

    Support. No way this would survive in main namespace. -- AnotherEditor144 (talk) 09:53, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

    Struck; not eligible to vote. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 20:01, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

17. Support -- Benwing2 (talk) 21:46, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

1. Oppose I think that entries of all auxlangs that have an ISO 639-3 code should be allowed in Mainspace. Reason: Such auxlangs have the potential to establish their own Wiktionaries (Novial has its Wiktionary on Incubator). Moving the entries to Appendix would affect interwiki links. For example, chokolate would lose the potential to be linked to the potential Novial Wiktionary, on which chokolate is obviously a legitimate Mainspace entry. This would make our site less user friendly. Jonashtand (talk) 12:55, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

   While that complication would indeed occur, Wiktionaries also have criteria for inclusion so that senses are attestable. It does not seem that Novial has very good chances of satisfying the criterion of three durable quotations per meaning. The result would be that many Novial entries would fail in RFV and that there will be very sparse coverage of Novial. ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 20:31, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

   ISO codes are also not what determines whether a language gets its own Wiktionary or not. Your hypothetical simply doesn't have much to do with how WMF actually works. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 20:47, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

   @Lingo Bingo Dingo If the difficulty in finding three durable quotations is a good reason for demoting Novial to an Appendix-only language, why aren't there any Appendix-only lesser-known natural languages? Jonashtand (talk) 18:30, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

   It is a matter of policy. Allowing LDL conlangs has proven unsellable. A practical consideration is that such LDL conlangs can be created without constraints, no such risk exists for natural languages. ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 18:45, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

   @Lingo Bingo Dingo Given that only ISO-coded conlangs are allowed in Mainspace, we don't need to worried about having unlimited LDL conlangs. Getting an ISO code for a conlang is no easy process. Jonashtand (talk) 15:12, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

   @Metaknowledge Having an ISO code is a necessary condition for a language to get its own Wikimedia project, afaik. It is obviously not a sufficient condition, though, as in the examples of artlangs, like Klingon. But, as I've mentioned, a Novial Wiktionary is eligible. Jonashtand (talk) 18:35, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

   It is neither necessary (languages without ISO codes used to be able to get Wikipedias, although that is unlikely to ever happen again) nor sufficient (many languages with ISO codes are not considered appropriate for Wikipedias). —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 18:39, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

   @Metaknowledge Anyway, the point here is that a Novial Wiktionay is eligible, and moving Novial entries to Appendix would prevent them from being linked to the correspondent entries on the future Nov WT, thereby decreasing our user-friendliness. Jonashtand (talk) 15:17, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

   Your argument about user-friendliness could be turned on its head.

   I could counter by pointing out that any future Novial Wiktionary is in the future, and thus any considerations are only hypothetical. Meanwhile, the presence of Novial in our mainspace does bear the current and concrete impact of making pages like ], ], or ] larger and less user-friendly than they would otherwise be.

   Granted, the impact on mainspace pages of having Novial in the mix is likely no more than a minor inconvenience. Similarly, should this hypothetical Novial Wiktionary come into existence, I suspect that the challenges of interwiki linking would amount to no more than a minor inconvenience. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 00:48, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

   @Metaknowledge To be consistent, what are the reasons for you not to also suggest moving Volapük, which is, like Novial and Interlingue, an auxlang that is rather obsolete? Jonashtand (talk) 09:32, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

   I considered it, but I ultimately determined that there actually is a lot more literature in Volapük, by a lot more people, over a much longer time. As a result, the problems of attestation aren't really relevant here. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 18:17, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

Passes 17–1. @DTLHS, you did the Lojban move; are you willing to do this one as well? —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 08:17, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I'll do it. DTLHS (talk) 21:15, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Someone will need to update the templates in Category:Novial headword-line templates. DTLHS (talk) 23:49, 9 March 2021 (UTC)