Wiktionary:Votes/2024-02/End date for Usenet's durably archived status

Background: On 22 February, Google Groups ceased archiving new Usenet messages. No Wiktionary user has been able to identify a website that continues to archive Usenet messages. This, combined with the very low textual traffic on Usenet (it is now mainly used for file sharing, à la BitTorrent), means it is appropriate to revoke Usenet's special status as far as it concerns newly-generated Usenet messages from 22 February onwards.

We can also take this opportunity to tidy up the relevant section of CFI to reflect current practice. In particular, the proposed text of Option 1:

• resolves an inconsistency in terminology ("durably archived" vs "permanently recorded")
• clarifies that, at RFV, there is an expectation to supply durably archived sources (a counterbalance to the "where possible, it is better" wording at the beginning of the sentence)
• adds the words "if possible" to the request to include ISBNs, noting that older books do not have ISBNs.
• adds a request to include an archive URL for online sources.

Option 2 omits these amendments and includes only the change regarding Usenet.

Voting on:

Option 1 (Usenet status change plus amendments to reflect current practice): To replace the following part of CFI, under WT:CFI#Attestation:

Attestation

“Attested” means verified through

1. clearly widespread use, or
2. use in permanently recorded media, conveying meaning, in at least three independent instances spanning at least a year (different requirements apply for certain languages).

Where possible, it is better to cite sources that are likely to remain easily accessible over time, so that someone referring to Wiktionary years from now is likely to be able to find the original source.

• As Wiktionary is an online dictionary, this naturally favors media such as Usenet groups, which are durably archived by Google.
• Other online-only sources may also contribute towards attestation requirements if editors come to a consensus through a discussion lasting at least two weeks.
• Print media such as books and magazines will also do, particularly if their contents are indexed online. When citing a quotation from a book, please include the ISBN.
• Other recorded media such as audio and video are also acceptable, provided they are of verifiable origin and are durably archived.
• We do not quote other Wikimedia sites (such as Wikipedia), but we may use quotations found on them (such as quotations from books available on Wikisource).

with the following text:

Attestation

“Attested” means verified through

1. clearly widespread use, or
2. use in durably archived media, conveying meaning, in at least three independent instances spanning at least a year (different requirements apply for certain languages).

Durably archived (new L4 heading)

Where possible, it is better to cite sources that are likely to remain easily accessible over time, so that someone referring to Wiktionary years from now is likely to be able to find the original source. The use of such sources to show that a term meets the minimum attestation requirements will be expected if the entry is challenged at requests for verification.

• (moved up) Print media such as books and magazines are a durably archived source of attestation, particularly if their contents are indexed online. When citing a quotation from a book, please include the ISBN if possible.
• Usenet messages posted on or before 21 February 2024 are durably archived by Google.
• Other online-only sources may also contribute towards attestation requirements if editors come to a consensus through a discussion lasting at least two weeks. When citing an online-only source, please include an archive URL to a Web archiving service such as the Internet Archive.
• Other recorded media such as audio and video are also acceptable, provided they are of verifiable origin and are durably archived.

(removed bullet) We do not quote other Wikimedia sites (such as Wikipedia), but we may use quotations found on them (such as quotations from books available on Wikisource).

Option 2 (Usenet status change only): To replace the following bullet point under WT:CFI#Attestation:

• As Wiktionary is an online dictionary, this naturally favors media such as Usenet groups, which are durably archived by Google.

with:

• Usenet messages posted on or before 21 February 2024 are durably archived by Google.

Votes will be counted as follows:

• First, calculate (Option 1) / (Option 1 + Option 2 + Oppose). If >= two thirds, Option 1 passes.
• Otherwise, calculate (Option 1 + Option 2) / (Option 1 + Option 2 + Oppose). If >= two thirds, Option 2 passes. This is because Option 1 is a superset of Option 2, so supporters of Option 1 are deemed to also support Option 2.
• Otherwise, fail or no consensus.

Schedule:

• Vote starts: 00:00, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
• Vote ends: 23:59, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
• Vote created: This, that and the other (talk) 23:22, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion:

• Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2024/January § Google Groups to stop archiving new Usenet posts
• Wiktionary talk:Votes/2024-02/End date for Usenet's durably archived status

1. Support as proponent. This, that and the other (talk) 10:01, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Support, but I'd like to see wording about DOIs and the like, such as that drafted by the vote's proponent on this vote's talk page, included in the proposed changes. 0DF (talk) 17:38, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Support. lattermint (talk) 17:41, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Support. JeffDoozan (talk) 21:38, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Support as a commonsense measure. Whoop whoop pull up ^{Bitching Betty ⚧️ Averted crashes} 01:19, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Support MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk) 02:24, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
7. Support Megathonic (talk) 03:16, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
8. Support Ioaxxere (talk) 03:25, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
9. Support tbm (talk) 05:20, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
10. Support – seems logical; a necessary implementation. LunaEatsTuna (talk) 23:07, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
11. Support CitationsFreak (talk) 20:04, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
12. Support. This is sensible considering the fact that Usenet is no longer being archived and it's good to reword things so that 'durably archived' and 'permanently recorded' don't both appear for clarity's sake. --Overlordnat1 (talk) 19:57, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
13. Support. — excarnateSojourner (ta·co) 07:19, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
14. Support. — Sgconlaw (talk) 12:56, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
15. Support — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 18:10, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
16. Support — Cnilep (talk) 02:29, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
17. Support — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 21:17, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
18. Support I agree with others that this vote is pretty common sense and appreciate that it represents both a timely response to the changing corpus landscape and that we are taking this opportunity to also do some copy editing/clean up of the "Attestation" section as a whole. I do think it wouldn't have been a bad idea to more consistently cite this vote next to proposed additions of text, but I think that is ultimately a minor matter given things like WikiBlame exist. —The Editor's Apprentice (talk) 01:41, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
19. Support fucking hell, google Binarystep (talk) 06:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
20. Support I never understood why usenet featured so prominently. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 12:35, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
21. Support — Voltaigne (talk) 12:53, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
22. Support. Though I do think Usenet's elevation is still rather weird. AG202 (talk) 20:52, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Abstain I doubt that we can rely on any institution to provide durable archiving of any digital-only content. The Internet Archive will a slender reed to rely on until it has an endowment of many hundreds of millions and servers in diverse jurisdictions. The pressure to limit/prohibit certain kinds of content and the consequences of profit-maximizing/cost-minimizing behavior by all institutions make the Usenet case an example of why durable archiving of digital content will always be a problem unless our standard for durability is measured in decades not centuries, let alone millennia. DCDuring (talk) 13:45, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Option 1 passes unanimously (22-0-0). Thanks all. This, that and the other (talk) 00:57, 26 March 2024 (UTC)