Wiktionary:Votes/2024-07/Remove "Quotations" sections

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Remove "Quotations" sections

Background:

  • Currently, the Entry Layout policy states that any time "there is more than one being provided", the quotes no longer go under the relevant definitions but in "a separate section", ====Quotations====. This has been unchanged (and unheeded) since 2006, before we had javascript to collapse quotations or a Citations: namespace. (Indeed, the policy makes no mention of Citations: pages and says any quotes that can't go under definitions—including gibberish too nonsensical to assign to a sense, and potentially quotes from senses that fail RFV—should be mixed into ====Quotations===== sections alongside quotes for well-attested senses. Here is what an entry might look like if it followed this policy: some definitions' quotations under the definitions, other definitions' quotations in an undifferentiated heap at the bottom.)

Voting on:

  • Removing ====Quotations==== sections. Anything in such a section should be placed under the relevant definition(s) or on the relevant Citations: page(s). In particular, the "Quotations" section of WT:EL, which is:
===Quotations===
:Main article: Wiktionary:Quotations
Quotations are generally placed under the definition which they illustrate. If there is more than one being provided, or where this is not possible (e.g., a very early usage that does not clearly relate to a specific sense of the word), a separate section should be used. Quotations here are formatted normally but without definition numbers.
* 1561, Flat Footed (translator), Platypus (author), Odes, chapter 3, line 12:
*: The hrunk it hrunketh every day.
will be changed to this and moved the "Definitions" section:
Definitions may be illustrated by quotations. Quotations are generally placed under the definition which they illustrate. Where this is not possible (e.g. if a usage does not clearly relate to a specific sense), they should be placed on the Citations page. Less illustrative quotations may also be put on the Citations page. For details of how to format quotations, see Wiktionary:Quotations.
  • WT:" will be updated accordingly.

Schedule:

Discussion(s):

Support

  1. Support About time we did this. This, that and the other (talk) 11:04, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
  2. Support Urszag (talk) 11:28, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
  3. Support This is just codifying standard practice --Overlordnat1 (talk) 11:42, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
  4. Support — Sgconlaw (talk) 14:07, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
  5. Support: The quotations section is so confusing that our readers have to spend several extra minutes staring at it in a desperate attempt to comprehend anything – this results in longer viewer retention for us! Truly genius. Only a naïve, kind freethinker who values our reader base would want to get rid of something like this. LunaEatsTuna (talk) 16:53, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
  6. Support This policy is completely ignored, which is probably why I never realized until now that multiple quotations should go in a separate section. Makes sense to update it to reflect longstanding practice. Megathonic (talk) 17:00, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
  7. Support: I have got rid of some in the past, but couldn't decide on some where given names are the same as surnames. DonnanZ (talk) 17:37, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
  8. Support. I already remove these on sight, if at all possible. They aren't helpful for polysemous words and aren't necessary for monosemous ones. — This unsigned comment was added by Andrew Sheedy (talk • contribs) at 19:17, 25 July 2024.
    Oh my gosh – a ghost! LunaEatsTuna (talk) 20:21, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
    Ghosts are still eligible to vote as long as they meet the requirements. Inqilābī 20:32, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
    LOL, I've gotten so used to these "reply" buttons that add in my signature automatically that I forget it when I have to actually used the "edit" button... Andrew Sheedy (talk) 04:41, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
  9. Support per all the above. Theknightwho (talk) 22:29, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
  10. Support —The Editor's Apprentice (talk) 22:43, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
  11. Support J3133 (talk) 06:45, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
  12. Support MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk) 07:34, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
  13. Support. Imetsia (talk (more)) 17:25, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
  14. Support Akaibu (talk) 00:22, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
  15. Support Benwing2 (talk) 07:54, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
  16. Support — Fenakhay (حيطي · مساهماتي) 21:09, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
  17. Support I like the way quotations and excerpts have become organized now, and see no reason to have any mention or use for the "old" way. Kungming2 (talk) 14:07, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
  18. Support —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान) 18:59, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
  19. Support as commonsense measure. Whoop whoop pull up Bitching Betty ⚧️ Averted crashes 22:31, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
  20. Support tbm (talk) 11:26, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
  21. Support I couldn't find a single Quotations section that wouldn't be of the format For quotations using this term, see Citation:<term>, which are absurdly redundant. Mölli-Möllerö (talk) 17:49, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
  22. Support — excarnateSojourner (ta·co) 15:00, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
  23. Support —Tcr25 (talk) 15:47, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
  24. Support per nom. ;) IMO everything in these sections can be moved to cites pages. In the past, one objection was that cites pages aren't obviously linked-to from entries on some versions of our mobile site, the way they are on desktop (where every page has a "Citations" tab), and this is true: if I view the mobile version of a page on a computer, I do see the "discussion" and "citations" tabs, but if I view the same page on an actual mobile device, I don't see either link. (How history pages display is also different.) However, that's a UI problem we need to fix (or pitch a fix for to the devs) regardless of whether we have quotations sections or not! - -sche (discuss) 06:28, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
  25. Support — BABR・talk 09:07, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
  26. Support —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 08:06, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
  27. Support — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 20:55, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
  28. Support — Voltaigne (talk) 20:24, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

  1. Weak oppose — I agree that these sections are undesirable on the whole; however, they do have one legitimate use-case, AFAICT: Citations that definitely belong to one of an entry's defined senses, but to which one in particular a given editor does not yet know. This case came up just now when I created Ancient Greek σημείᾱ (sēmeíā): Unfortunately, the LSJ entry for the word cites a number of sources in its discussion of the word's spellings, without assigning them to a particular sense. Those which I couldn't work out by triangulating with Bailly and Pape I ended up adding under σημεία#Quotations. Yes, they could go to Citations:σημεία instead, but it would be better, I think, to keep them where they are and to have the entry added to a quotations-section–related clean-up category. 0DF (talk) 20:46, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
    Good point sir. In fact, I think it wouldn’t hurt if we instead abolished the Citations page and used the Quotations sections for the same purpose we use the Citations mainspace now. Editors could then easily relocate a quote from the Quotations section to one of the definitions whenever necessary without any hassle, as I talked about below. Inqilābī 12:49, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
    The Citations pages allow an almost uncensored collection of quotations of varying value or significance or uncertain meaning or accuracy to be collected in one place for deeper analysis, whereas the quotations on entry under each term are the refined, curated material for the elegantly maintained dictionary. Some words have multiple potential etymologies, and it can be impossible to sort out their origin without some comparison and thinking, which the Citations page facilitates. Is Changtzu an alternative form of Zhangzi or Changzi or both? Could be both, but the real question is: what was in the minds of the original authors and the original translators? I can't be sure precisely but I can guess and process and think about things on the Citations page for the word. I strongly advise against ending Citations pages. Some of the evil authors and evil quotations I've seen could not exist on Wiktionary mainspace- Wiktionary would be ended immediately if it were tried-- too fringe for a dictionary, even if you want to parade descriptivist values. But there is some utility in having that material somewhere so that a relatively more objective analysis of the relevant terms can be made, and so that the dictionary has a mechanism to help us all avoid self-censorship. Geographyinitiative (talk) 19:14, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
    @Inqilābī: This vote concluded weeks ago and passed easily, and though I weakly opposed it, I feel it necessary to respond to your proposal, for the record's sake. I second those I understand of Geographyinitiative's points. Moreover, citations pages are incomparably more valuable than quotations sections. We should think of the Citations: namespace as the cabinet of infinite dimensions which holds this project's lexicographical slips (q.v.) — the empirical basis of any dictionary worth its salt. Ideally, all quotations would exist in the Citations: namespace, with those chosen for inclusion in entries copied (not cut and pasted) thence; illustrative quotations for other terms could then more easily be found by searching for a given term within the Citations: namespace. For that reason, please don't have citations pages deleted in future. 0DF (talk) 14:06, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
  2. Weak oppose Thadh (talk) 11:40, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Abstain

  1. Abstain Looks okay to me. I am not offended by the Quotations sections conceptually, but the majority of its uses looked sorry for themselves, and we remove one complication of layout options benefiting automated processes. Fay Freak (talk) 10:30, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
  2. Abstain. Even without codification, one could easily get rid of a Quotations section. But I can’t do the same with a Citations page: I come across lots of Citations pages with quotes unnecessarily lying there (I mean pertinent, non-controversial quotes for attested senses) which ought to be relocated to the dictionary entry. I feel like moving the quotes and tagging the page for speedy deletion, but the fact that I don’t have deleting perms deter me (see also WT:RFDE#Citations:timid as a rabbit); I once did this and Eq deleted the Citations page, but he isn’t anymore, and other admins are possibly reluctant to do such chores. Good luck and best wishes. Inqilābī 16:45, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
  3. Abstain。 --Geographyinitiative (talk) 12:05, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
  4. Abstain. I feel like there might be niche use cases for this, but not enough to oppose. AG202 (talk) 04:57, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Decision

Passed 28-2-4. Vininn126 (talk) 17:46, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Shouldn’t someone now carry it out? ☺ MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk) 02:48, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
OK, I've updated WT:EL and WT:QUOTE. Removing quotations sections from entries may take some time because it's probably best done by a human (rather than a bot) who can figure out which sense to assign the quotations to, or whether they do not apply to any sense and need to be moved to the Citations: page. A bot could probably remove quotations sections that consist only of "seeCites", though. - -sche (discuss) 19:21, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
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