Wiktionary talk:English set phrases

I disagree with the broad assertion that the insertion of modifiers is "usually fatal", as this depends on the parts of speech of the constituent elements. When the basic form of the putative set phrase consists of , then modifiers are indeed possible, albeit not hugely common. Consider the following variations of (deprecated template usage) eat humble pie:

• 1985, Virgil E. Baugh, Rendezvous at the Alamo, page 181

  But he was prepared to eat more humble pie because he wanted so intensely to square himself with his fellow citizens.

• 2003, Bettie B. Youngs, Debbie Thurman, & Jennifer Leigh Youngs, A teen's guide to Christian living, page 126

  We all mess up from time to time and have to eat that humble pie.

• 2006, Joseph C. Phillips, He Talk Like a White Boy‎, page 41

  I wish he had been thankful for the opportunity to eat his humble pie and spent the remainder of his time at OSU doing more than dreaming of dollar signs

These are only a few of the many examples I found easily for each possible combination. There are some set phrases that are less commonly modified, and there are some that are rather easily and frequently modified. This is not a Boolean criterion, but a spectrum of possibilities.

And to provide examples using kick the bucket:

• 1975, James Laughlin (ed.), New directions: An international anthology of prose and poetry, Volume 30‎, page 98

  So she had no other choice
  than to put up with mountains of dirty underwear
  and kick the final bucket
  when the pain became unbearable

• 1998, D. Keith Mano, Take Five‎, page 70

  I guess it depends what you wanna leave behind when you kick the big bucket.

• 2002, Piers Anthony, Swell Foop‎, page 349

  At such time as I kick that bucket in the Void, I hope to be remembered for two things: writing some good books, and helping change Parnassus (the publishing system) for the better.

• 2007, Paul Sterling, The Buggerum Intrigue‎, page 39

  By the end of three weeks, Blue told his Mum that if Dad did not kick his bucket soon he was going to migrate to South Australia and mine opals.

• 2007, Richard Burt, Shakespeares after Shakespeare, Volume 2‎, page 596

  Kick his own bucket? Well, a lot of us don't have it so good, and start thinking like that.

So, the example set phrase can also permit some variation. --EncycloPetey 03:34, 5 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

• Indeed, well researched EP. I don't have much to add, but it's very clear that the criteria are a lot more difficult to pin down than this page suggests. Rather than "set phrase", I prefer the term ‘common collocation’, which does not make any claims to exclusivity and does not preclude polysemy, but aims to recognise that certain words are regularly used together, rather than available alternatives, to denote a specific lexical idea. Ƿidsiþ 05:39, 5 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

• Determiners are arguable. I would be inclined to accept them. The inclusion of adjuncts seems like a stretch too far. As far as I can tell, a poetic hapax legomena is very poor evidence of any linguistic phenomenon. DCDuring TALK 09:18, 5 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

  I'm not sure what you mean by hapax legomena here. I very carefully made sure that (1) both "set phrases" investigated were of the form, and (2) found examples of each that included the use of "his" and "that", (3) found two examples of a descriptive adjective for the second one and two examples inserting a pronoun. The term hapax legomena refers to something that occurs only once, so it would not apply in a situation where a second example appears. --EncycloPetey 16:21, 5 June 2010 (UTC)Reply