Talk:bottle

I'm no expert on American-style IPA because I've never found a dictionary that uses it but this doesn't seem right to me at all.

1. Dquare brackets are used for narrow transcriptions which are not what dictionaries use. Dictionaries use /slashes/
2. In words such as this some dictionaries allow a syllabic l, that means it doesn't use a vowel to be a separate syllable. Others use a schwa. Yet others indicate an optional schwa. The third is rare but it's what I do on Wiktionary so as to cover the other two views in a single pronunciation. The problem is that schwa can never carry stress, primary or secondary. Most English disyllabic words only have a primary stress. Compare "goaty" which would have stress only on the first syllable, and "goatee" which has stress on both syllables.
3. "ʈ" is not a sound used in English – it would be a retroflex "t". Narrow transcriptions may use a few symbols but in dictionaries only "t" is used.
4. I'm not an expert but as far as I know, dark l "ɫ" is not used in American English. It is used in British English but is only shown in narrow transcriptions. Dictionaries just use "l".

I would recommend /bɒt(ə)l/ for British English, and /bɑt(ə)l/ for American English. — Hippietrail 07:16, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. We were talking about this before on IRC, but I forgot to fix it. Incidentally, the velarised alveolar lateral approximant (dark L) does appear in most US dialects, from my recollection. Ask Muke, he'll know. Anyhoo, I'll add those in, since I entirely agree with the transcriptions you have there (though I'll add /ˈ/ to both as well). --Wytukaze 16:24, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

At the time of writing the pron section looks thus:

• IPA^(key): /ˈbɒt(ə)l/ (UK) or /ˈbɑt(ə)l/ (US) obsolete or nonstandard characters (K), invalid IPA characters (//UK//US)
• Template:X-SAMPA /"bQt(@)l/ (UK) or /"bAt(@)l/ (US)

• Audio (US):

  (file)

• Audio (Canada):

  (file)

It's lacking an American dictionary style pronunciation section, only has audio for some regions, the printed guides' regions dont' match the audio regions, there are no rhymes sections. None of this is a problem but we'll need a robust and flexible format to accommodate all these when they are added pice by piece.

Various attempts have been made at tables in the past but imho none have been satisfactory. They seem to take up a lot more space, don't look very professional, and have proven difficult for new contributors to add to. Again, this doesn't mean that a nice solution using tables is not possible.

Let me try to integrate the extra info into the format I've been using for my pronunciation sections...

• (UK): xxx, IPA^(key): /ˈbɒt(ə)l/, /"bQt(@)l/

  Homophones: not needed in this case

  Audio: not provided yet in this case

  Rhymes: -ɒt(ə)l

• (US): xxx, IPA^(key): /ˈbɑt(ə)l/, /"bAt(@)l/

  Homophones: not needed in this case

  Rhymes: -xxx

  Audio:

  Audio (US):

  (file)

  ,

  Audio (Canada):

  (file)

1. My "American Dictionary" style pronunciation (elsewhere still known erroneously as "AHD") is designed to unify British and US to a large degree so splitting it up won't really work and dup'ing it doesn't seem optimal.
2. There are may British dictionaries using IPA to serve as a guide, American dictionaires less so but there's a bit if we work at it. But Canadian IPA? Is there something to guide us? And if we don't have a separate line for Canadian, where does the Canadian sound belong? Can it share a line with US version? What if we label that line "North American"?
3. Rhymes are also unified so we can't really have two rhymes entries when the differences between the "commonwealth" and "north american" are systematic and predictable.

Let's hear some great ideas (-: — Hippietrail 07:17, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

According to this dictionary, bottle is from Anglo-Norman via Middle English. Mglovesfun (talk) 14:30, 12 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

If it's from Modern French, what was the English word for bottle pre-1600? Mglovesfun (talk) 14:35, 31 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

So you need a translation, do you. Try {{trreq}} Middle English. ? DCDuring TALK 20:45, 15 July 2011 (UTC)Reply

I don't see how a translation would help; both sources cite a Middle English form, but one says from Old English, one from Anglo-Norman. Butler seems to be from the Old French/Anglo-Norman word meaning officer in charge of a bottle. --Mglovesfun (talk) 20:51, 15 July 2011 (UTC)Reply

It's not from modern French, it was still called a bottle in Middle English ((deprecated template usage) botel). The OED's first cite is from c.1375. Ƿidsiþ 20:53, 15 July 2011 (UTC)Reply

I thought this derived from the older phrase (deprecated template usage) Dutch courage -- i.e. from the effects of gin (originally a Dutch recipe) and its usefulness in working up the nerve to go into battle. Is there some other derivation at work here?

And either way, would someone please add a derivation for this sense? -- Ta, Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 23:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

I'm no expert, but how does one articulate an alveolar flap followed by a syllabic l with no intervening vowel? Again, I'm no expert, but after examining my own articulation carefully, I've become convinced that I (with what I think is a typical general American accent) precede the syllabic l with an (alveolar) lateral flap - a phone I was surprised to learn is in my repertoire! Am I atypical in this, or should the phonetic transcription be altered? 166.137.208.31 07:00, 17 May 2014 (UTC)Reply

It was also used to mean some type of container for liquids made out of other materials, such as leather. I believe this is probably the meaning intended in Matthew 9 KJV 174.124.136.252 01:48, 29 May 2016 (UTC)Reply

I assume that's sense 1. We say "typically made of glass or plastic", not "always" made of those things. Equinox ◑ 03:02, 29 May 2016 (UTC)Reply

I saw this phrase in Tom Jones (citation below), meaning to stand somebody a drink. Should it be documented under this entry, or under be someone's bottle? Equinox ◑ 01:23, 12 December 2016 (UTC)Reply

• 1749, Henry Fielding, The History of Tom Jones, a Foundling, volume (please specify |volume=I to VI), London: A Millar, , →OCLC:

  The wine being now at an end, the barber pressed very eagerly to be his bottle; but Jones absolutely refused, saying, “He had already drank more than he ought: and that he now chose to retire to his room, where he wished he could procure himself a book.”

Seen in a few books of slang but can't find citations: there's too much about real bottles of drink etc. Equinox ◑ 16:10, 7 November 2021 (UTC)Reply

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bottle

Rfv-sense: "(obsolete) A bundle, especially of hay; something tied in a bundle." Tagged by WF as he was removing a Chaucer quote from under this sense. This sense is in OED, but I'm currently unable to check the actual content of the entry (I blame New Year gremlins). This, that and the other (talk) 05:56, 4 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

The 1888 edition has these cites under a separate etymology (unlike our entry, which currently groups this together with glass bottles), deriving it from "Old French botel, diminutive of *bot, masc. form of botte" whence botte (“bundle”).- -sche (discuss) 07:01, 4 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

This seems to have had three cites under it already at the time it was listed. I've added a {{seeMoreCites}} to the rest and moved it to its own etymology section. - -sche (discuss) 07:20, 5 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

RFV-resolved, thanks -sche! This, that and the other (talk) 01:34, 7 January 2024 (UTC)Reply