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Heya Dine2016, I think your comment there makes sense and is appropriate. Using both labels is something I also agree with, not least as it helps to ensure a minimum of ambiguity or confusion regarding what exactly is being described. Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 05:35, 26 January 2020 (UTC)Reply
- @Eirikr: Thanks. (I wanted to make sure my understanding of the difference of "inflecting" and "inflectional" was correct.)
- EDICT allows multiple POS labels on the same sense so the 国文法-形態論 mismatch can be easily solved. And on Wiktionary we can clarify the difference in Usage notes sections. But what about the headers? Should て be a particle or a suffix? If we're going to cover premodern Japanese under the JA L2 header, then I prefer basing our work on 国文法, which describes Classical Japanese and Modern Japanese consistently and we can use monolingual JA dictionaries as our framework. --Dine2016 (talk) 08:53, 26 January 2020 (UTC)Reply
- Re: て (te), where it attaches to verbs as the conjunctive ending, it should be listed as a suffix. Where it is used as a quotative, usually but not always geminate as って (tte), it should be listed as a particle.
- As a verb suffix, I suppose an argument could be made that this is also inflecting for classical and older Japanese, since て (te) is specifically the conjunctive form (technically, the 連用形) of completion suffix / auxiliary つ (tsu). But in modern contexts, I believe this て (te) is described as its own thing, and not a form of つ (tsu).
- Re: inflecting vs. inflectional, my understanding agrees (I think) with your EDICT comment. A suffix is inflectional if it is used to express an inflection of a word. A suffix is inflecting if it also inflects. So a suffix can be both inflectional and inflecting, or just one or the other.
- From that, I'd say that す (su) as the classical transitive / causative suffix is both inflectional -- expressing the transitive or causative inflection of the verb to which it attaches -- and inflecting -- since it inflects into forms like し (shi), さ (sa), せ (se), etc., with other inflectional suffixes possibly attaching.
- HTH, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:36, 27 January 2020 (UTC)Reply
I think it's okay to call it MSC. It's just a more formal register. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 20:05, 9 February 2020 (UTC)Reply
I don't intend to stop you from leaving, but I want you to know that I liked your ideas, even if I didn't comment on them. —Suzukaze-c◇◇ 17:40, 27 February 2020 (UTC)Reply
Hello, i'm only just beginning to learn Japanese however I am very interested in the etymology and morphological structure of grammatical structures.
I'm very interested in your comment on the shape of れる being -are(-/ru), since it's impossible to represent in the writing system or traditional grammar, but makes sense and alligns with the notion of godan verbs having consonant final stems.
Does this mean that the vowels at the end of various stem forms ALL belong to the following "auxiliary verbs", rather than to the stem, or as some kind of mediating infix? In that case why do only （さ)せる and （ら)れる seem to demand an intermediary kana to attach to ichidan verbs?
Can you provide a source for this specific interaction, and/or recommend a good resource for learning the history of Japanese grammar from a modern learner's perspective?
Thank you! SheilbyWright (talk) 04:24, 23 May 2025 (UTC)Reply