In response to a recent “Translation of the Week” request, which asked for translations for, amongst other things, child, I added the Welsh word, plentyn, defining it using a template that I created for that very purpose as: {{singular of|plant#Welsh|plant|lang=Welsh}}, which became singular of plant I did this because in Welsh, certain words’ simplest forms are plural, and they go on to form singular forms by inflexion (for child, the plural “plant” forms the singular “plentyn” by the addition of the singular suffix “-yn”), which is different from the invariable rule in English that words inflect for the plural, but not vice versa.
However, I was told by EncycloPetey that this is a tad controversial (see our conversation on my talk page). He went on to suggest that I post this proposal which asks that:
What have people to say regarding this proposal? † Raifʻhār Doremítzwr 22:32, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
We need to have guidelines for how Welsh entries look, and to actually keep to them. @Angr, Embryomystic is there anyone else active who cares about Welsh? If so, please ping them. Some things that I think are important:
{{mutation of}}
, {{cy-noun-mutated}}
, or {{form of}}
? I actually prefer the latter, because then we can specify which mutated form it is. In which case perhaps {{cy-noun-mutated}}
oughtn't to exist.I'll add more concerns as I think of them. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:34, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
{{cy-mut-new}}
, which is poorly written (so please test it!) but can do the job of all of them without any arguments, while keeping backwards compatibility with {{cy-mut}}
. However, we shan't be able to use it on mutated forms, but I think those entries shouldn't have mutation tables anyways. Please tell me what you think of all this. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 09:46, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
{{ga-lenition of}}
for Irish, and for the other mutations I use {{eclipsis of}}
, {{t-prothesis of}}
, and {{h-prothesis of}}
with a lang= parameter. I've been thinking of making similar templates for Welsh: {{cy-soft mutation of}}
, {{cy-nasal mutation of}}
, {{cy-aspirate mutation of}}
, or the same things without the "cy-" (but then taking a lang= parameter) so that the same templates can be used for Middle Welsh, Breton, and Cornish. There's also {{lenition of}}
, which could be used for soft mutation if we're willing to refer to SM as "lenition" (which it is, though it isn't usually called that). Irish also has Category:Irish mutated forms with subcategories for mutated adjectives, nouns, numerals, pronouns, and verbs; I'd recommend the same thing for Welsh and the other Celtic languages. I agree that entries for mutated forms shouldn't have mutation tables, just like entries for inflected forms shouldn't have inflection tables. Since Welsh nouns don't decline, I think we can use Category:Welsh plurals rather than Category:Welsh noun forms. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:56, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
{{mutation of}}
and used that with lang=cy
? Also, do you think that mutation section should exist if the word can't mutate (just to show that indeed nothing changes)? I personally oppose it, by {{cy-mut-none}}
does exist... Hmm, cleaning all this up looks like it'll be a monumental task; many of the entries simply haven't formatting at all (plaintext explanation). —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:59, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
{{mutation of}}
would also work, but if we want it to categorize according to mutation type (as Irish already does: Category:Irish lenited forms, Category:Irish eclipsed forms, Category:Irish h-prothesized forms, Category:Irish t-prothesized forms) we have to make sure people put exactly the right name in. Current practice for Irish is already not to include a mutation table for nonmutating forms; I think anyone who knows the language well enough to know what the mutation table is there for will know when a form is nonmutating. The table is there more to supply links than to inform people with no knowledge of the language how to mutate. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:46, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
{{head|cy}}
? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:54, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
{{head|cy|mutated noun}}
, {{head|cy|mutated verb}}
, {{head|cy|mutated adjective}}
, and so forth. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:59, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
{{cy-noun-form}}
? Pinging User:EdwardH to join in the discussion. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:46, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
{{cy-noun-form}}
since Welsh nouns don't inflect. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 11:00, 1 March 2014 (UTC){{cy-some mutation of}}
templates which would be less error-prone than parameters on {{mutation of}}
. EdwardH (talk) 19:21, 1 March 2014 (UTC)I've adapted one of Angr's templates to show colloquial conjugation and was wondering if anybody had any comments about it. EdwardH (talk) 07:55, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
inflected colloquial forms |
singular | plural | ||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
first | second | third | first | second | third | |
future | yfa i, yfaf i |
yfi di | yfith o/e/hi, yfiff e/hi |
yfwn ni | yfwch chi | yfan nhw |
conditional | yfwn i, yfswn i |
yfet ti, yfset ti |
yfai fo/fe/hi, yfsai fo/fe/hi |
yfen ni, yfsen ni |
yfech chi, yfsech chi |
yfen nhw, yfsen nhw |
preterite | yfais i, yfes i |
yfaist ti, yfest ti |
yfodd o/e/hi | yfon ni | yfoch chi | yfon nhw |
imperative | — | yfa | — | — | yfwch | — |
Does anyone know how to treat stems ending in an i when forming the future tense? For example, I'm pretty sure that 'ffonii' is not the correct way of saying 'I will phone'. EdwardH (talk) 20:23, 22 March 2014 (UTC)