Talk:van
Dutch
Regarding Dutch pronunciation: I was under the impression that this would be pronounce as /fan/. Eclecticology
There are two things to consider here:
- Within western Europe, there are lots of slightly differings ways of pronouncing labial fricatives (w, v, f), to the extent that speakers of English make fun of German speakers' apparent inability to pronounce the 'w': 've have vays to make you talk' -- while in fact German has both a 'v' and a 'w'.
- Within the Netherlands, speakers of the dominant dialects of the Western provinces of Holland tend to devoice the voiced front consonants and voice the voiceless front consonants. For some strange reason, in this case the pronunciation of the dominant dialects has not become w:Algemeen Beschaafd Nederlands. So, de zon in de zee zien zakken (to see the sun descend into the sea) is pronounced in those provinces as de son in de see sien sakken; Amsterdammers go even further and pronounce suiker (sugar) for instance as zuiker (with a voiced 's', so to speak).
To wrap it up, I don't know which of these two facts causes the confusion; and maybe I made a mistake by using the wrong notation: I have been using the w:SAMPA Chart, except for shwa's, which I copied from the entry for The. --Branko.
Thanks. I should have suspected something like that. Although I favour IPA, the IPA and SAMPA may not differ on this word. Preferring a standard pronunciation for all languages should be supported; I think that it will be impossible to do justice to any dialects in any language. Having the English and Dutch words with the smae pronunciation may also be problematical with the English vowel sound being more like a /æ/ than the Dutch and the English "n" being more strongly vocalic. Eclecticology
I don't see a problem in having a limited set of phonemes. After all, it is not as if people should learn to speak a foreign language from this resource. And if I cannot write the exact pronunciation of a word, somebody else will. Branko
The pronunciation of the Dutch word 'van' is /vɑn/ rather than /van/, /van/ (written vaan) means 'flag' or 'banner'. So I changed the notation
Old senses
In Prescott's The History of the Conquest of Mexico, written about 150 years ago, van seems to be used in a sense related to but not synonymous with vanguard. Can anybody shed light? I'll try to find a quotation where both are used. — Hippietrail 15:48, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Camionet
In the dutch "translations to be checked" I saw the word camionet. I'm not sure of the spelling and I can't find the gender. Maybe somebody else can take care of this.
1800s verb
https://books.google.ca/books?id=x1k2AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA422 Transactions, Volume 8 American Institute of Mining Engineers The Institute, 1880 - Mineral industries
- A portion of each sample was carefully vanned by an expert. The coarse and the fine sands yielded no free copper, proving that all the float copper is less than 0.4 mm.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=4rJQSKx6A7QC&pg=RA1-PA77 Journal: Appendix. Reports, Volume 4 California. Legislature 1891
- The skimmed dross so obtained is then pulverized and vanned, by which means all of the globules of metal will be readily separated.
Is anyone able to help with understanding these? I see no definition explaining. ScratchMarshall (talk) 19:52, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
- @ScratchMarshall, see the third etymology section. — Ungoliant (falai) 20:00, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
Ah thanks, hadn't noticed the additional verb entries, that clears it up. ScratchMarshall (talk) 20:16, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
RFV discussion: April–May 2019
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Short form of caravan (i.e. procession). The given citation says "In the Army of the Union, we are marching in the van", but I would understand this to mean marching in the vanguard (etymology 2), i.e. in the lead, at the front. Can anyone confirm/deny? Equinox ◑ 23:29, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- (1) “To march in the vanguard” is definitely established idiom, used by scores of companies presenting themselves as doing such. (2) The “Song of the Anderson Zouaves”, found in a book entitled Songs of the Soldiers that also contains the lyrics of “The Army of the Free” (quoted at the contested sense), uses the collocation “to lead in the van”. “The van” occurs many more times in these songs, next to a few occurrences of “the vanguard”, while no mention is to be found of any “caravan”. The conclusion that in these songs “van” is a shortening of “vanguard” appears inescapable to me. --Lambiam 11:56, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
- I too would imagine that "van" in the song means "vanguard". I found a few potential instances of "van = caravan" in the caravanning/camping context, e.g. "Situated on a large 21 acres of lush, green grounds, Andergrove Van Park is the perfect spot to park yourself (and your caravan) as you explore the beautiful region of Mackay and all that it has to offer" . However, it is hard to be certain that these are shortenings of "caravan" especially because of the existence of the camper van. Mihia (talk) 20:05, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
- Me too. DCDuring (talk) 00:36, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
RFV-failed Kiwima (talk) 21:02, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
RFV discussion: October–November 2022
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Finnish. Allegedly a direct borrowing of English van. Not mentioned in Nykysuomen sanakirja even as a slang term. In my personal experience, a van is just pakettiauto or paku for short. Kapulakone (talk) 17:09, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
- Appears to be attestable, but definitely deserves a "rare" label. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 18:46, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
- By googling "ostin vanin", "mentiin vanilla", "vanilla pääsee" etc. one can find a reasonable amount of usage, but not so much quotation-quality material. I would say keep and keep the labels "informal" and "rare" as well. --Hekaheka (talk) 10:55, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
- Many of those seem to be referring to various models with "Van" in their names. I was also wrong about finding quotes for this - there was only one, and even that is questionable, so RFV-deleted. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 15:52, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
- By googling "ostin vanin", "mentiin vanilla", "vanilla pääsee" etc. one can find a reasonable amount of usage, but not so much quotation-quality material. I would say keep and keep the labels "informal" and "rare" as well. --Hekaheka (talk) 10:55, 21 October 2022 (UTC)