User talk:Gavantara

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Enjoy your stay at Wiktionary! Chihunglu83 (talk) 09:20, 8 July 2025 (UTC)Reply

ok, thanks Gavantara (talk) 10:11, 8 July 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hi Gavantara, just dropping some thoughts on the proto-form entry because it really needs better handling if we want it to look serious.

First, the root *lərəs itself is actually plausible. It makes sense for a meaning like ‘straight’ or ‘right’ since we see it reflected in Javanese and Sundanese leres. So the basic idea isn’t completely off.

However, the so-called Proto-Austronesian form *tulədəs is pretty suspicious. I can’t find it in Blust’s or Adelaar’s reconstructions. Cebuano tul-id does mean ‘straight’ but linking it directly to betul in Malay is a stretch. If you’re claiming they share the same proto-root as leres and lurus, at least cite a published source or explain the sound changes. This is the crux of the matter that gets right to the heart of why that entry doesn’t hold up.

Just to clarify something important here: Javanese and Sundanese leres do not actually correspond to Malay lurus. They may look similar in meaning (right and straight), but the sounds don’t match up. If we reconstruct *lərəs for Proto-Malayo-Polynesian, you can’t just say it turns into lurus in Malay without explaining the sound changes, and if the proto-form is really*lərəs, the expected Malay reflex would be something like **leras, not lurus. Malay normally preserves the root vowels quite well in native words, unless there’s a regular, known sound change to explain it. There isn’t any evidence of an *-ə- regularly becoming -u- in Malay.

Also, the main problem is the structure. There are no proper references, the etymology chain is too hand-wavy, and it mixes modern forms with unverified proto-roots. If you want an entry like this to stay on Wiktionary, it really needs evidence, like a citation from Blust’s Austronesian Comparative Dictionary or a standard reference. Otherwise it just looks like guessing.

In essence, the idea behind the entry is fine but the details are sloppy. Next time, double-check the proto-forms, explain the sound changes properly, and always back it up with a credible source. That’s the difference between a good etymological entry and one that looks like personal guesswork. RookieHere (talk) 04:57, 11 July 2025 (UTC)Reply

I also thought so before, the possibility I could not force the model, except Malay borrowed it directly from the Javanese who have experienced changes to the sound of O before U, maybe through Sundanese, before the final should canceled my edited first to Malay. Gavantara (talk) 07:43, 11 July 2025 (UTC)Reply

I want to double that. This is a serious project, so please don't edit based on guesswork. There are templates to request, verify, delete so please familiarize youself how and when to use it. Old Sundanese language is btw osn, you used the wrong code. Chihunglu83 (talk) 16:22, 11 July 2025 (UTC)Reply

However it seems like I have to make scientific papers first and find more similarities, so I can refer to my own paper, Actually I doubt the proto *lərəs, it could be a metathesis from Malay benar, or proto shape, *bəNər → beler → seler → leres(metatesis), b → s compare to banget vs sanget, bareng vs sareng, This change may be similar to Sundanese W → C, Sawa → Sanca , Kiwa → kénca, rawa → ranca, If w → c, c → s. banget → wanget → canget → sanget, beler → weler → celer → seler metathesis→ leres, This will re -reconstruct the form of *bənər to *bəNər, leres Actually it is a polite form of the word (bener) in Javanese and Sundanese, so the possibility of metathesis and changes b → s and n → l, made intentionally by Javanese and Sundanese.Gavantara (talk) 03:25, 12 July 2025 (UTC)Reply

Now I kinda understand your thought on why you said *ləqəm went through a metathesis. Do you have any more examples or references for the b → w and c → s sound changes that happen in these languages, such as banget → wanget and celer → seler? Sponge2490 (talk) 09:52, 12 July 2025 (UTC)Reply

i have more w → c in sundanese, lawah(spider) → lancah(spider) compare to Indonesian "laba-laba" reduplication "laba" from "labah" from "lawah" from "lawaq".

kambuh(relapsed), "kawuh"→ kanceuh(relapsed), missing link

waduk(shit) → caduk(shit)

biu(banana:balinese) → cau(banana:sundanese)

c → s, in sundanese

ciga(like) → siga(like)

cuda(pure, white) → sunda(pure, white, clean)

coklat → soklat (some sundanese language)

I am actually confused, why b → s, This is not natural:

bareng(with, together)→ sareng(with, together, and)

banget(very) → sanget(very)

The pattern of change is only possible if b → w → c → s

For b → c or w → c is very common in Sundanese, but c → s is very difficult to find, because Sundanese likes c sounds, so rarely change to s.

On the contrary, usually s → c, for example in the name of a person:

Salsa → caca

Nisa → (N)ica

the only reason why c → s is only because of the policy of language politeness, the sound c is too hard, so they change it to s that's more smooth and soft, so that's why:

careng → sareng

canget → sanget

I just found that I was, the rest I'll look for again !! 😂 Gavantara (talk) 10:58, 12 July 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hello Gavantara, what sources or readings you found that state a similar etymology? Rentangan ^{(talk, contribs)} 20:48, 11 July 2025 (UTC)Reply

Enemish language concept by Laurent Sagart, but i forgot what the name of the source that have i read, he said that there is *Nəm form in Siraya, Basay, and Makatao to mention three, So he concluded that enem might be a reduplication of Nem (nəmnəm → əmnəm → ənəm), But i did not find the form of Nem in those languages, I only found the "ruma" form in Makatao. I saw that the duha → ruha in Makatao, so I concluded that the "ruma" might come from the "duma(other)" other = third person? . (sorry for my English)😂 Gavantara (talk) 03:04, 12 July 2025 (UTC)Reply

Please be more careful/thorough when creating pages. There are no definitions at the pages Reconstruction:Proto-Malayic/ləgəm, Reconstruction:Proto-Malayo-Sumbawan/lehem, and Reconstruction:Proto-Malayic/gələm.

Also, when nominating a page for speedy deletion, I don't understand the reasons you're giving ("a3", "g9", etc.). You can just say "created in error" in the future. Ultimateria (talk) 18:05, 13 July 2025 (UTC)Reply

thanks Gavantara (talk) 06:37, 14 July 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hi, please use

• {{R:pzh:BZCD}} as a ref, that's the only written dictionary for us to source the spelling, thank you .

Chihunglu83 (talk) 08:00, 14 July 2025 (UTC)Reply

thanks again. Gavantara (talk) 08:02, 14 July 2025 (UTC)Reply