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@Sarri.greek: Μπορώ να σας ζητήσω βοήθεια; Προσπαθώ να βρω άλλα παραδείγματα αυτού του φαινομένου. Βρήκα σαρμάκο/σαμάρκο εδώ αλλά τη δεύτερη λέξη δεν είμαι σίγουρος που υπάρχει. Τι νομίζετε; --Barytonesis (talk) 21:59, 1 November 2017 (UTC)Reply
- Και έχει διαφορά ανάμεσα σε "μετάθεση" και "αντιμετάθεση"; --Barytonesis (talk) 22:00, 1 November 2017 (UTC)¨Reply
from sarri: Bary @Barytonesis I'm checking now, and i will come with more examples for you.
- σαρμάκο NOT found at dict. Babiniotis or Dimitrakos
- σαμάρκο NOT found at dict. Babiniotis or Dimitrakos
- have no idea what they mean,
- @Sarri.greek: About σαρμάκο, there is this: "Σαρμάκο": Η σπάνια αυτή λέξη που δεν υπάρχει σε κανένα λεξικό έρχεται να ενώσει τα ρεμπέτικα με την ενετοκρατία. Πράγματι, είναι πολύ οικεία στους φίλους του ρεμπέτικου επειδή υπάρχει στον τίτλο ενός τραγουδιού του Βαμβακάρη, ο Μάρκος κάνει σαρμάκο. Υπάρχει και νεορεμπέτικη κομπανία με το όνομα Σαρμάκο. “Κάνω σαρμάκο” σημαίνει “στέκομαι αμίλητος προσοχή, αποφεύγω να εκδηλωθώ”. Στο τραγούδι ο Μάρκος βλέπει την αγαπημένη του με άλλον, αλλά “κάνει σαρμάκο”, “κάνει το κορόιδο” ας πούμε." --Barytonesis (talk) 16:07, 2 November 2017 (UTC)Reply
- from sarri @Barytonesis !!! I'm impressed. Are you making a list of rare idiomatic words...
- metathesis μετάθεση = any change of position.
- antimetathesis αντιμετάθεση = the MUTUAL change of position of 2 things.
- μετάθεση at Babiniotis.1998: verbatim
- VERBATIM EXCERPT ...4. ΓΛΩΣΣ. η αλλαγή τής θέσης γραμμάτων, συλλαβών ή φθόγγων μέσα στην ίδια λέξη κατά την γραφή ή την προφορά της, λ.χ. φούχτα, χούφτα || καράφλα, φαλάκρα ΦΡ. (στην αρχαία ελληνική) μετάθεση ποσότητας ή αντιμεταχώριση.
- TRANS.eng: 4. LINGUISTICS: the change of position of letters, syllables, or phthongi/sounds inside one word, at its script or pronunciation, e.g. φούχτα, χούφτα || καράφλα, φαλάκρα PHRASE (in ancient greek) quantitive metathesis or antimetachorisis.
- αντιμετάθεση at Babiniotis.1998.
- VERBATIM EXCERPTS: αντιμετάθεση, η (μεταγενέστερο) 1. η αμοιβαία αλλαγή θέσεως, η αμοιβαία μετάθεση. 3. ΓΛΩΣΣ: (α) η αμοιβαία αλλαγή θέσεως δύο διαδοχικών φθόγγων, λ.χ. γουρσούζης-γρουσούζης (β) αντιμετάθεση χρόνου ή αντιμεταχώρηση (βλ.λ.). -αντιμεταθέτω ρ. .
- TRANS.eng: αντιμετάθεση=antimetathesis, η (posterior ) 1. the mutual change of placing/position, the mutual metathesis. 3. LINGUISTICS: (a) the mutual interchanging of position of two consequtive phongus/sounds e.g. γουρσούζης-γρουσούζης (β) αντιμετάθεση χρόνου=quantitive antimetathesis or αντιμεταχώρηση=antimetachorisis (see word). -αντιμεταθέτω=transpose, commute verb . ---trans.note: μεταγενέστερος = posterior?? hysteron? at Babiniotis Abbreviations = 3rd century BC to 6th century AC
- μετάθεση from my old school-grammar, Tzartzanos, 1979
- ... i m coming back soon. with examples.
from sarri 5 minutes later: oh. I just saw that there are here already metathesis etc. so I ll come back with more examples.
from sarri 1 hour later: YOUR LIST in 2017.11.01:
- maybe put in alphabetical order?
- is the pair in chronological order? first the older version, then the product of metathesis.
- some, are strictly ancient greek?
- my notes in brackets. The uncommented words, i need to check in dictionaries. Can i hide my marginalia for sources? A hide-show thing? e.g. in an entry, i would like the documentation of what is written, but NOT to view it in-text.
- Yes, it's possible to do that; you have to write "<!--" before your message, and "-->" after, so: <!-- blabla -->
- αλυχτώ–ὑλακτῶ = ὑλακτῶ - ὑλαχτῶ - ἀλυχτῶ - αλυχτώ.
- χούφτα–φούχτα = φούχτα - χούφτα
- καραφλός–φαλακρός, καράφλα-φαλάκρα
- φαιλόνης–φαινόλης
- σκερπάνι–σκεπάρνι
- πλακουτσωτός–πλατσουκωτός
- τσαγκρουνώ–τσουγκρανώ
- είνορο–όνειρο ]
- βρούτσα–βούρτσα
- καμηλαύκι–καλημαύκι
- πουρνό–πρωινό
- τούρλα–τρούλος .
- πουρνάρι–πρινάρι
- MORE PAIRS with METATHESIS for you
- Μυτιλήνη-Μιτυλήνη (name of the island of Lesbos).
- Δανούβιος-Δούναβις (gre.old-gre.mod)
- Πνύκα = Πύκνα
- Ιθάκη-Θιάκι
- are you doing any PAIRS of words
- PAIRS with aphomiosis:
- Do you do PAIRS with CHANGES of vowel quality, but which do not mean the same thing?
- λέγω - λόγος· βρέχω - βροχή· ἀμείβω - ἀμοιβή· λείπω - λέλοιπα, λοιπός· σπεύδω - σπουδή· ῥήγνυμι - ῥωγμή
- from sarri @Barytonesis: (sorry for my messy wikitxtwriting). This category suffixes with ή? e.g. 'αγορά'? What do you mean? sarri.greek (talk) 16:31, 2 November 2017 (UTC)Reply
- @Sarri.greek: well, that issue is not completely settled, but etymologically it makes sense to have "-ά" and "-ή" together, because "-ή" = "-ά" behind "ε, ι, ρ" (in Attic); it's still the same suffix, only under a different form (allomorph). Cf. the Ionian form ἀγορή. See this discussion. --Barytonesis (talk) 22:29, 2 November 2017 (UTC)Reply
- sarri to @Barytonesis: So you love categories and lists. Well, sorry i cannot really help, except as a layman: if I needed Lists? There are two paths, τα εξής τρία.
- 1. starting from the standard-grammars-categorizing. For every κλίση/category/law and sub-category and sub-sub-category, you make a list adding words. The production of root+suffix or the law of production is the key, and becomes the heading (επικεφαλίδα) of the list. Even a unique exception is a sub-sub-sub-category in itself. DIFFICULT: the correspondence of ancient-modern words in the same group.
- 2. starting from the visual aspect: what one sees written. You group them by criterion of εμφάνιση, e.g. xxxά group. More like a list of rhyming words. Then you may subgroup them xxxκά, xxxμά, xxxρά... You do not bother about grammar. xxxή is a different group. Again, you ignore diacritics. Doesn't matter if anc. or mod. greek.
- 3. starting from the sound: αίxxxx and έxxx are in the same xxx group. κακέ & κακαί are in the same group. etc...
- So, as a reader, I need to know at a glance: are you doing type 1 or type 2 lists? sarri.greek (talk) 03:55, 3 November 2017 (UTC)Reply
from sarri to @Barytonesis yes, the words are gre.mod. Here is what I found at Babiniotis.1998 TYPING VERBATIM for your lemmata-collection (I keep them too). :
- φαιλόνιο (το) ΕΚΚΛΗΣ ο μανδύας χωρίς μανίκια, τον οποίο φορούν εξωτερικά οι κληρικοί. τού καθημερινού λεξιλογίου, που προέρχεται από το αρχ ρ φαίνω / -ομαι και το καταληκτικό επίθημα -όλης].
- --where μτγν = μεταγενέστερος, -η, -ο ενν ελλην (3ος αιώνας π.Χ. - 6ος αιώνας μ.Χ.)
- --τού , he liked accenting those, in 1998.
- --So, yes it is AGr? what do you call 3rd c.BC to 6th AC? in wiktionary terminology.
There is also a lemma φαινόλη, the chemical thing.
Can I ref. to you here? or is this still a private-work? Ta-ra. sarri.greek (talk) 04:25, 6 November 2017 (UTC)Reply
- @Sarri.greek: Yes you can, nothing is really private on a wiki! Also, I've left several of your questions unanswered, but I'm not forgetting them, I'll try to answer them later. --Barytonesis (talk) 21:42, 19 November 2017 (UTC)Reply
- @Barytonesis: You are very kind, don't bother, i get answers little by little. By the way, these words are inspired by your greek pairs. sarri.greek (talk) 21:50, 19 November 2017 (UTC)Reply
Lost @Barytonesis! Got some new ones here. I don't think you have them. They are:
Until your next name.. sarri.greek (talk) 08:35, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
Yes Bary,Reply
- αμαρτωλός–αρματολός DIFF ety. (αμαρτωλός . αμαρτία=sin - αρματωλός < άρματα=weapons)
- about ήρεμος - ήμερος I have not checked. DSMG stops at Hellenistic and anc.
Moving to yout other list, your other name now. sarri.greek (talk) 01:57, 22 January 2018 (UTC)Reply