Module talk:fr-verb

Note: See also Template talk:fr-conj-auto.

Could someone add assentir? Conjugates like sentir, not like finir. Renard Migrant (talk) 23:52, 20 August 2016 (UTC)Reply

@Renard Migrant Done. Does this verb take either avoir or être, like ressentir? Benwing2 (talk) 00:05, 21 August 2016 (UTC)Reply

Is there any intention to add support for reflex verbs? —JohnC5 05:01, 9 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

@JohnC5 There is supposed to be support for reflexive verbs already using |refl=1. It should be autodetected; I'll implement this soon. Benwing2 (talk) 13:49, 9 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

@2WR1 I added support for specifying the pronunciation of verbs when pronunciation respelling is necessary. For example, slicer uses {{fr-conj-auto|pron=slailcer}}. You can specify multiple pronunciations separated by commas, e.g. for knockouter: {{fr-conj-auto|pron=nocaouter,nocouter}} and for aimer: {{fr-conj-auto|pron=émer,aimer}}. Note that the latter case isn't quite right in the future and conditional; I'll fix this shortly. If you have a chance, can you fix up verbs that you know need respelling? The list of verbs that use {{fr-conj-auto}} can be seen by looking at Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:fr-conj-auto. Thanks! Benwing2 (talk) 05:15, 10 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

@Benwing2 Okay, great, sounds good! I'll take a look at those. I think at this point I'm almost done adding testcases, there's a few more things I wanted to try out. But let me know if there's any other things you want me to add there. 2WR1 (talk) 06:23, 10 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

@2WR1 Can you check out User:Benwing2/test-fr-verb? This is a test of new changes that will be applied soon to the verb module. In particular, please check out the pronunciations of the future and conditional, esp. the schwa or lack of schwa before the endings, and the pronunciation of 1p/2p present subjunctive and imperfect indicative (i.e. those forms with endings in -ions and -iez). Feel free to add new verbs to User:Benwing2/test-fr-verb as test cases. Thanks! Benwing2 (talk) 06:15, 11 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

@2WR1 BTW, the test cases acheter, mener and céder are still somewhat broken in their pronunciations, these will be fixed soon. Benwing2 (talk) 06:43, 11 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

@Benwing2 Looks pretty good! The only thing is that it might be good to show for the forms whose stem ends in -er that there is an optional schwa. 2WR1 (talk) 07:32, 11 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

@2WR1 Hmm, how should I display an optional schwa in something like /ɛm.ʁɔ̃/? Should it be /ɛm.ʁɔ̃/,/ɛ.mə.ʁɔ̃/ or something combined like /ɛm(ə).ʁɔ̃/ or /ɛ.m(ə).ʁɔ̃/? Benwing2 (talk) 14:02, 11 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

@Benwing2 I think the parentheses look best, and that's what they do on French wiktionary as well. 2WR1 (talk) 20:32, 11 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

@2WR1 With the extra syllable break, as in /ɛ.m(ə).ʁɔ̃/? I'll implement that. Benwing2 (talk) 20:37, 11 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

@Benwing2 Looks good! 2WR1 (talk) 05:10, 12 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

@2WR1, Renard Migrant, Angr, Kc kennylau Pinging those who might know ... Do these have /ɑ/ (as the spelling indicates) or /a/? Benwing2 (talk) 16:57, 11 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

@Benwing2 In these cases I don't think it would be. I double checked by finding some conjugation charts with pronunciations, and for a word with an /ɑ/ in it, like mâsser, they were shown as two different vowels, i.e. mâssâtes was /mɑ.sat/. 2WR1 (talk) 17:15, 11 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

@2WR1 Hmm. If you're looking at frwikt, it's possible that this is just a side effect of the way they generate the conjugation charts: In fr:mâsser, for example, the template call on the page is written {{fr-conj-1|mâss|mɑ|s|clé=masser}}, i.e. it specifies the /mɑs/ part, and then the template code that implements {{fr-conj-1}} adds all the endings, and it might be broken. Benwing2 (talk) 17:24, 11 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

@Benwing2 That's true, let me try to get some more definitive answers and get back to you. 2WR1 (talk) 20:33, 11 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

@2WR1 I had to fix this module so it could support ressortir, which is conjugated either like sortir or finir depending on the meaning. Are there any other verbs like this that have two conjugations? Benwing2 (talk) 08:30, 14 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

@Benwing2 The only one that comes to mind right now is asseoir. 2WR1 (talk) 07:53, 20 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

Module:fr-verb currently has a long list of verbs that supposedly take either avoir or être in the passé composé. I'm pretty sure this list is almost completely wrong, and only a few verbs belong, e.g. descendre, passer. There's also a smaller list of verbs that supposedly take only être, which appears to be more or less correct. Could you look over the lists and let me know what they should actually contain? Thanks!

# List of verbs are conjugated using 'être' in the passé composé.
local etre = {
  "aller",
  "alterner",
  "apparaître",
  "arriver",
  "décéder",
  "entrer", "rentrer",
  "mourir",
  "naitre", "naître", "renaitre", "renaître",
  "partir", "départir",
  "rester",
  "surmener",
  "tomber", "retomber",
  "venir", "advenir", "bienvenir", "devenir", "intervenir", "parvenir", "provenir", "redevenir", "revenir", "survenir"
}

# List of verbs that can be conjugated using either 'avoir' or 'être' in the
# passé composé.
local avoir_or_etre = {
  "abdiquer", "abonnir","absconder","abuser","abâtardir","accommoder","acculturer","adapter","adhærer","admirer","aguerrir","aider","aliter","alourdir","alphabétiser","amerrir","anémier","apparenter","aspirer","attrouper","ausculter",
  "balbutier","barbeler","batailler","bloguer","bosseler","bouillir","bouturer","buer",
  "cagouler","candir","cartonner","cascader","caserner","cauchemarder","ceindre","cintrer","circuler","coincer","commercer","commémorer","comparaître","confectionner","connaitre","consentir","conspuer","consterner","constituer","contorsionner","contrister","convoyer","couver","couvrir","crever",
  "demeurer","déchoir","descendre","diplômer","disparaitre","disparaître","dormir","déborder","décapitaliser","déceler","découvrir","déficeler","défier","dégeler","déglutir","délaver","délecter","démanteler","démasquer","dénationaliser","dénoncer","dépendre","dépuceler","déshabituer","désister","déstabiliser","détériorer","dévaler","dévitaliser",
  "effoirer","emmener","encabaner","encapsuler","encaquer","encartonner","encartoucher","encaster","encommencer","endetter","endormir","enferrer","engrisailler","enlever","enserrer","envier","envoiler",
  "fasciner","ferrer","filigraner","fouetter","fourmiller","fringuer","fucker","fureter",
  "gargariser","gascher","gausser","geler","gnoquer","grincer","gémir",
  "haleter","harasser","hâter","hæsiter","hésiter",
  "identifier","impartir","inquieter","insonoriser",
  "larder","larmoyer","lemmatiser","lever","lier",
  "malmener","marketer","marteler","matter","maugréer","mener","mentir","microprogrammer","mincir","modeler","modéliser","monitorer","monter","muloter","multiplier","méconnaître",
  "niveler","obvenir","omettre","orner",
  "pailler","paraitre","paraître","parfumer","parjurer","parsemer","passer","permettre","perpétuer","peser","poiler","promettre","præsumer","prætendre","prélever","préserver",
  "qualifier","rainurer","ramener","rebattre","reboiser","reclasser","recoiffer","recoller","recomparaître","redormir","redécouvrir","refusionner","regeler","relancer","relever","relier","remonter","rendormir","repartir","repasser","repatrier","repentir","respitier","ressentir","ressortir","ressouvenir","restaurer","restreindre","restructurer","retourner","retransmettre","retweeter","réagir","réapparaitre","réapparaître","réentendre","référencer",
  "savourer","sentir","siffler","simplifier","sortir","soupeser","spammer","subvenir","suspecter","synchroniser",
  "taire","tiédir",
  "volleyer","ædifier",
  "élancer","élever","éloigner","étriver"
}

Benwing2 (talk) 06:35, 26 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

@2WR1, Renard Migrant Benwing2 (talk) 06:37, 26 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

@Benwing2 I'm not an expert on this, but I'll try to find a reliable source and check them. 2WR1 (talk) 02:27, 2 October 2016 (UTC)Reply

OK thanks! Note, in the meantime I reduced the verbs to a much smaller list:

local etre = {
	"aller",
	"apparaitre", "apparaître",
	"arriver",
	"entrer",
	"mourir",
	"naitre", "naître", "renaitre", "renaître",
	"partir", "repartir",
	"repasser",
	"rester",
	"surmener",
	"retomber",
	"venir", "advenir", "bienvenir", "devenir", "intervenir", "obvenir", "parvenir", "provenir", "redevenir", "revenir", "survenir"
}

-- List of verbs that can be conjugated using either 'avoir' or 'être' in the
-- passé composé. FIXME: This should be in the template, not here.
local avoir_or_etre = {
	"descendre", "monter", "paraitre", "paraître", "passer",
	"rentrer", "repartir", "ressortir", "retourner", "réapparaitre", "réapparaître",
	"sortir", "tomber"
}

Benwing2 (talk) 02:30, 2 October 2016 (UTC)Reply

@2WR1 Benwing2 (talk) 02:31, 2 October 2016 (UTC)Reply

According to Larousse, Académie française and Lerobert as well as Appendix:French_irregular_verbs, the verbs accroître and décroître should conjugate differently from croître and recroître in that they should have circumflex accents only in the 3rd person singular present form (accroît), the future and conditional forms (accroîtrai, accroîtrais...) and the 1pl and 2pl past historic forms which have an accent on all verbs (accrûmes, accrûtes). Right now the conjugation template shows an accent for all past historic forms (accrûs, accrût...) as well subjunctive imperfect (accrûsse...) and the past participle (accrû) but I don't know how to modify the module to fix this. Malhonen (talk) 22:09, 15 April 2022 (UTC)Reply

Sorry, forgot to mention 3rd person singular subjunctive imperfect (accrût) which should have the accent unlike the other forms of subjunctive imperfect (accrusse, accrusses...). Malhonen (talk) 22:18, 15 April 2022 (UTC)Reply

For the record, I just figured out how to fix it myself. Malhonen (talk) 00:33, 1 May 2022 (UTC)Reply

Currently avoir#Conjugation shows "auras or auras ¶ /ɔra/ or /ora/". Presumably we'd want "auras ¶ /ɔra/ or /ora". @Benwing2. Catonif (talk) 11:28, 28 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Catonif Will take a look. Benwing2 (talk) 19:07, 28 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

These sources give the imperfect indicative forms, and we can see some rare usage of these forms (for example éclosais)

• Dictionnaire de la langue française, Émile Littré, 1863
• Cédrik Fairon, Anne-Catherine Simon, Le petit bon usage de la langue française, Grévisse, 2018
• J. Castaréde, French Verbs, Super Review, 2002
• Paul Bercy, La langue française, méthode pratique pour l'étude de cette langue, 33e édition, William R. Jenkins, 1896

And éclôt can also be written éclot cf. Larousse Sayoxime (talk) 18:09, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Dictionaries mention the imperative of "valoir" as "vaux", "valons", "valez" https://dictionnaire.lerobert.com/conjugaison/valoir https://www.larousse.fr/conjugaison/francais/valoir/10967 Sayoxime (talk) 12:21, 23 January 2025 (UTC)Reply