Talk:pizza
Pizza is delicious
It seems to me like maybe a third plural for "pizza" is "pizza" itself: either that, or "pizza" has a 2nd sense which refers to the collective total of pizzas. Because we say "I like pizza", never "I like pizzas". —This unsigned comment was added by Language Lover (talk • contribs) at 14:07, 2 March 2007 (UTC).
- That’s a mass noun. It’s just like "I like cake", "I like beer", "I like Marmite", "I like ice cream", "I like spinach". —Stephen 15:21, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
- Of these examples you give, cake and beer, like pizza, have the weird property that sometimes we add an 's' to pluralize them, and sometimes we don't. Whereas, ice cream and spinach are true mass nouns in the sense that we never add an 's' to them. (As for Marmite, I have no idea!) What do we call words like pizza, beer, cake which sometimes get the plural ending and sometimes don't? —This unsigned comment was added by Language Lover (talk • contribs) at 18:49, 3 March 2007 (UTC).
- Again, these aren't plurals. You say: "Cake is delicious", "Pizza is delicious". You can't use "are" instead. And the fact that they aren't plurals is the simple and not at all weird reason why they don't get a plural ending. —This unsigned comment was added by 92.196.107.231 (talk) at 16:45, 13 February 2018 (UTC).
Etymology
Pizza, at Online Etymology Dictionary, Pissa, Liddell and Scott, "A Greek-English Lexicon, at Perseus, Pizza, at Dictionary.com — This unsigned comment was added by Unorthografair (talk • contribs) at 13:28, 13 February 2008 (UTC).
Repetitive definition
There must be some better way of writing this definition, without repeating the whole recipe. Interplanet Janet 14:07, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
Mandarin translations by wayward user
A user with multiple automatically generated IP addresses (known as Engirst, abc123, etc) is persistently inserting Mandarin translation as pizza. We have sufficient standard and common translations using Chinese characters. I will have to protect the page until further notice. Please advise if there are serous objections. --Anatoli 05:12, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
RFV
See also Talk:bacon.
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Two simultaneous listings merged. --Anatoli 23:21, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
Rfv-sense: the Mandarin section -- Liliana • 21:43, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
Does it have to be under a Mandarin header or is it simply a case of code-switching - and English word used by Chinese without really becoming Sinicised? We do have common nouns in mixed scripts or non-native scripts but is it the one? 比薩餅 / 比萨饼 (bǐsàbǐng) / 比萨饼 (bǐsà bǐng) or simply 比薩 / 比萨 (bǐsà) / 比萨 (bǐsà) are much more common and standard terms and other variants. How do we categorise and format this entries? The user must be from be form an overseas Chinese community or something with a significant language loss. Do we cater for hybrid languages much? --Anatoli 23:19, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
- Note that pizza饼 failed RFV and was deleted in August. - -sche (discuss) 23:37, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
- It's easy to find citations but I'd like to know if it's worth bothering. Fugyoo 01:05, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
- Mixing languages is common with some people, especially migrants but we usually don't create entries for words from one language under the headings of another, unless it's proven they are really assimilated into the target language, especially if a non-native script is used. You will find phrases like "I love 漫画" or recently cited "Москва" in English but these foreign words are not assimilated into English. "Pizza" has been both translated and transliterated into Mandarin (various terms exist). It doesn't stop people not knowing Mandarin well from speaking or writing in a hybrid language but it's neither common nor standard. --Anatoli 01:17, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
- "pizza" is very common in the world as well as in Chinese language. Engirst 01:26, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
- I don't deny it's being used, otherwise, I would just use
{{rfd}}, not{{rfv}}but the question remains, whether it's a case of code-switching. even if it's rather wide-spread. Mandarin is the largest language on the internet, you can now find all weird things. The simpliifed form "比萨" (in quotes) has about 27,000,000 hits, for which you didn't bother to create an entry. What's the value of the entry pizza#Mandarin if we already have both English and Italian? What's your agenda? --Anatoli 01:53, 4 October 2011 (UTC)- All languages in the world, big or small, should be equal. Engirst 02:06, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
- I don't deny it's being used, otherwise, I would just use
- "pizza" is very common in the world as well as in Chinese language. Engirst 01:26, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
- Surely if you don'y deny it's used in Chinese, it's an RFD issue, right? Mglovesfun (talk) 08:25, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
- I was hoping for more productive input. So far, I marked it as slang. The Chinese people don't write in Roman letters and normally can't even pronounce English words well. How does a native speaker pronounce "pizza"? I only heard "bǐsà" (比萨/彼萨) in Mandarin, even in Melbourne, where the Chinese know English well. When the do use, it's when they don't know Chinese well or are accustomed to use a language hybrid. There are many more common words for pizza in Mandarin. BTW, the vote I have set up won't deal with these type of entries, the vote is only for proper names. I RFV'ed the word as we don't have CFI for full words in Roman (not abbreviations, including OK#Mandarin under Mandarin headers, so no formatting or categorising was discussed. "Pizza" won't be part of any Chinese dictionary - book or online. I personally see no benefit of including it but if we do, we need a native speakers confirmation. --Anatoli 10:03, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'm probably one that satisfies the conditions above. In fact I use "pizza" (not "bǐsà") all the time when I speak "Chinese", yet I don't consider it a Chinese word. In writing, depending on whether I'm writing a formal Chinese article or a diary, I'll write "吃比薩餅" or "吃pizza". (Digression: I think the propensity to use native phonotactics (when spoken) increases when age increases. For example, my uncle, named "Simon", is addressed by me as /ˈsaɪmən/; my mother calls him /sa˥mən˨/ (weakened ɪ omitted); and my grandmother calls him /san˧˩wɤn˧˥/ (in accordance with Mandarin phonotactics). )60.240.101.246 12:17, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
- @60.240.101.246 "I don't consider it a Chinese word" but you do use it when speaking Chinese? I don't think you live in China. I know a Chinese guy who lived in New Zealand and Australia for 25 years, he won't be able to utter /piːtsə/. On this video, the woman has a strong Southern accent but she says 比萨 (bǐsà) "bǐsà" (at least once in the beginning of the video). That's what I also hear from Chinese in Melbourne (with some variations in tones). --Anatoli 12:54, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
- Here I hear accented /piːtsə/ (although not very clear) at about 0:04. --Anatoli 13:01, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
- Both of the videos actually say "pizza" (more like "pisa", since Standard Chinese lacks voiced sibilants). "bǐsà" would be much less aspirated word-initially, and the tone qualities would be different. However, this is not important, as they are only non-Chinese words placed in a Chinese sentence. Other languages may consider this as a loanword in these situations, but Chinese doesn't, because of the script difference. "Pizza" will never be used, for example, by Xinhua or news published in any other major Chinese newspaper in Chinese-speaking regions, just like "Thames河". 60.240.101.246 08:33, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
- Chinese doesn't consider it a loanword? That's anthropomorphizing, and as such in this context is terribly unhelpful.--Prosfilaes 09:23, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
- I did say this should be at RFD, RFV is for verifying things with citations, nobody's denying this can be attested. So it's a question of acceptability, not existence. Mglovesfun (talk) 09:30, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not denying its limited non-standard usage in Chinese. I personally think it's also a case of mixed language but we have OK#Mandarin and some others, which are acceptable in Mandarin. The new vote will only deal with proper nouns. I'm afraid without a new vote or some support from other editors it will be a bit hard, I think. You know how pushy abc123 is. So I'm not pushing for deletion at this moment, only for verification and categorisation. However, I don't want Mandarin entries to be full of Chinglish (or code-switching if you wish) either, so eventually there must be a CFI for other parts of speech of Mandarin. --Anatoli 10:23, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
- I did say this should be at RFD, RFV is for verifying things with citations, nobody's denying this can be attested. So it's a question of acceptability, not existence. Mglovesfun (talk) 09:30, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
- Chinese doesn't consider it a loanword? That's anthropomorphizing, and as such in this context is terribly unhelpful.--Prosfilaes 09:23, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
- I was hoping for more productive input. So far, I marked it as slang. The Chinese people don't write in Roman letters and normally can't even pronounce English words well. How does a native speaker pronounce "pizza"? I only heard "bǐsà" (比萨/彼萨) in Mandarin, even in Melbourne, where the Chinese know English well. When the do use, it's when they don't know Chinese well or are accustomed to use a language hybrid. There are many more common words for pizza in Mandarin. BTW, the vote I have set up won't deal with these type of entries, the vote is only for proper names. I RFV'ed the word as we don't have CFI for full words in Roman (not abbreviations, including OK#Mandarin under Mandarin headers, so no formatting or categorising was discussed. "Pizza" won't be part of any Chinese dictionary - book or online. I personally see no benefit of including it but if we do, we need a native speakers confirmation. --Anatoli 10:03, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
- This should be deleted since it has not actually entered the lexicon as it is. Mandarin words spelt with Latin letters should only be included if they have a meaning that differs from the original word, like "high" or "feel" which I can't believe we don't have. Anything else is just code-switching. After all, we can't include every English word which happens to be popular in Chinglish, that's just silly. ---> Tooironic 10:26, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
- I agree but it's a bit too much for me. Engirst has exhausted me a bit. Thanks for finally joining! Talk:pizza饼 can be a good start, RFV failed before as User:-sche said. --Anatoli 10:30, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
- Deleted, like Москва (discussion here). Non-mixed-script, non-Hanzi entries (like "pizza", which is entirely in the Latin script) should in the future be taken to RFD or speedily deleted, rather than taken to RFV, unless there is reason to believe the words have taken on new meaning in Chinese (for example, if Chinese speakers used "pizza" to mean "貓"). - -sche (discuss) 23:07, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- How about OK#Mandarin? 2.27.73.100 23:17, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- You have to prove that pizza#Mandarin is also a Mandarin word, not an English word used by Chinese people. OK#Mandarin is an established exception, included in Chinese dictionaries. Also, don't go asking questions if you don't answer any. If you continue using the backdoor, making everyone upset, your entries will be deleted. Prove first that "pizza" and "bacon" are also Chinese words. Protecting entries from you will disadvantage anonymous users who act in good faith but you leave no options if you continue pushing your agenda. --Anatoli 23:26, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- How about OK#Mandarin? 2.27.73.100 23:17, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
nl-pron
inBELG/pi(short)za/i'dsay213.49.94.111 09:39, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
italian section
Nell'articolo italiano, file audio non ha pronuncia italiana. Grazie della correzione.
In the Italian article, the audio file is not with an Italian pronunciation. Thank you for correcting. — This unsigned comment was added by 185.213.20.74 (talk) at 00:06, 24 October 2018 (UTC).
Is Pizza Translingual?
I don't know the exact guidelines for what it takes for a word to be considered translingual, but every single entry for pizza (21 for "pizza", 2 for "Pizza", and 1 for "pizză") has the same definition. There has also been some talk earlier on this talk page of "pizza" with latin letters being used in languages not using the latin alphabet. Just pointing it out for anybody who does know the policy to decide if this counts. — This unsigned comment was added by 96.241.99.48 (talk).
RFD discussion: December 2023–February 2024
The following information has failed Wiktionary's deletion process (permalink).
It should not be re-entered without careful consideration.
Rfd-sense all adjectival senses: not adjectives, but attributive uses of the noun. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 07:06, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
- Delete sense 1. I could potentially be persuaded on sense 2, since it’s transformative. Theknightwho (talk) 14:20, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
- Hmm... to me, it seems easier to view pizza bagel (or pizza breadstick, etc) as also still using the noun pizza attributively to attribute the flavours or elements of pizza to the bagel; if we view this as transformative, a lot of other words are used the same way — does that mean garlic bread is an adjective "With the toppings of garlic bread." in garlic bread bagel, and everything bagel is an adjective in everything bagel hot dog? (What about e.g. ranch in ranch ice cream?) I would sooner view these as all still attributive uses of the noun, though I admit language is a bit fuzzy. - -sche (discuss) 15:47, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
- That's a good point - I hadn't heard of either of those, but they make it pretty clear that it's an attributive noun. Theknightwho (talk) 16:59, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
- Hmm... to me, it seems easier to view pizza bagel (or pizza breadstick, etc) as also still using the noun pizza attributively to attribute the flavours or elements of pizza to the bagel; if we view this as transformative, a lot of other words are used the same way — does that mean garlic bread is an adjective "With the toppings of garlic bread." in garlic bread bagel, and everything bagel is an adjective in everything bagel hot dog? (What about e.g. ranch in ranch ice cream?) I would sooner view these as all still attributive uses of the noun, though I admit language is a bit fuzzy. - -sche (discuss) 15:47, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
- Either delete both, or move both, lock, stock and barrel, to the noun as attributives. It's not an adjective, not in this form anyway. DonnanZ (talk) 21:06, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
- Delete both. It's simply just not another meaning of the word, it's just an attributive sense of the noun. Hzrn (talk) 19:50, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
- RFD failed as bullshit Demonicallt (talk) 09:20, 16 February 2024 (UTC)