10 Results found for "User:Logomaniac".

User:Logomaniac/What is a word

This is a discussion that took place on Wiktionary's IRC channel on December 19, 2009 about what a word really is. I guess the outcome of it was that Wiktionary's current definition of word represents accurately what we thought was a word. And I'm going to start using 'quorblagging' too . . . . . [12:00] I'm going to put about six cleanup and attention tags on [[word]] [12:00] http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/word [12:00] and [[phrase]] [12:00] http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/phrase [12:00] and [[idiomatic]] [12:00] http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/idiomatic [12:00] heh [12:00] word isn't bad [12:00] well, the first three defs anyway [12:00] we need better definitions [12:00] hehe [12:00] .? word [12:00] word — noun: 1. (linguistics) A distinct unit of language (sounds in speech or written letters) with a particular meaning, composed of one or more morphemes, and also of one or more phonemes that determine its sound pattern, 2. A distinct unit of language which is approved by some authority â[...] [12:01] I think our definition or word is pretty good [12:01] OK then I want a less techy-sounding one [12:01] .? idiomatic [12:01] I want a more techy-sounding one. [12:01] idiomatic — adjective: 1. Pertaining or conforming to the mode of expression characteristic of a language, 2. Resembling or characteristic of an idiom [12:01] wel, the composed of onwards is not definitino, it's clarification [12:02] I want one that I can understand [12:02] without several hours' worth of research [12:02] Me too.:P [12:02] and I don't want to move to simple.wikt [12:02] even though razorflame keeps begging me to [12:03] Morphemes and phonemes wouldn't take several hours. They're simple concepts. [12:03] word: The pieces which make up a language. In Latin based languages, such as English, French, and Spanish, it is a bunch of letters separated by spaces. [12:03] sdlksfdjk <-- but that is not a word [12:03] An elementary school student would know that [12:03] cirwin, "peanut butter" is a compound. There's a space in there, though. [12:03] that's the simple.wikt defintiion [12:04] Well, it's wrong. [12:04] I know [12:04] wow [12:04] Also, "bunch"? [12:04] a bunch of letters separated by spaces [12:04] implies that there is at least one space in each word [12:04] True. Didn't think of that. [12:06] What does it say about me that as I pack to go visit family, I bring with me an SF novel, a book of absurdist plays, a grammar of Irish, an Irish dictionary, a book on data structures, and a number of papers about Irish syntax or computational implementation of syntactic theory? [12:06] GEEEEEK [12:06] in a freindly way [12:06] (i.e. two of the letters have been cunningly transposed) [12:08] By "cunningly" I assume you mean "by the cunning craft of my fingers, without my prior knowledge". [12:08] something like that [12:08] word: A distinct unit of language, represented by sound in speech or symbols (as letters or pictograms) in writing which is used to represent a certain quantity or idea and consists of one or more morphemes as well as one or more phonemes [12:08] Oh yeah, and a book on linear algebra and a book of short stories in Irish. [12:09] I dunno [12:09] our definition needs work [12:10] because if I use 'quorblagging' to mean ... I dunno, sleeping, it is '(linguistics) A distinct unit of language (sounds in speech or written letters) with a particular meaning, composed of one or more morphemes, and also of one or more phonemes that determine its sound pattern, ' but it is still not a word. [12:11] Logomaniac, it's composed of one morpheme and one bit of nonsense. [12:11] a widely recognised unit of language? [12:11] isn't it? [12:11] it could be [12:11] "quorblag" is not a morpheme. [12:11] .? morpheme [12:11] morpheme — noun: 1. (linguistics) The smallest linguistic unit within a word that can carry a meaning, such as "un-", "break", and "-able" in the word "unbreakable" [12:11] it has -ing [12:12] and blag [12:12] quorblag and -ing [12:12] Yes, but it's not composed of morphemes. It contains one, but it isn't composed of them. [12:12] quorblag is a nonce morpheme [12:12] or quor is, and it has some relationship to blag [12:12] yep [12:12] and why is quorblag not a morpheme? [12:12] or quor and blag [12:13] indeed [12:13] Cassowaries, perhaps an idiolectic morpheme, but that doesn't do anyone any good. [12:13] It is "The smallest linguistic unit within a word that can carry a meaning, " [12:13] What meaning does it carry, outside of your mind? [12:13] I would interpret "quorblagging" (if it means "sleeping") as "stealing sleep" [12:13] note can carry instead of does carry :p [12:13] and therefore quor would mean sleep [12:13] so I impose meaning upon it [12:14] and therefore I impose morphemic status upon it [12:14] mhm [12:14] exactly [12:14] and therefore quorblagging is a [[word]] according to our defiintion [12:14] http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/word [12:14] Cassowaries, but how do you come to the conclusion that it means sleeping? In certain contexts, it might be possible, but in general not. [12:14] Leftmost, well, purely from being told [12:14] which is inelegant, but not invalid [12:15] how does one come to the conclusion that "sleeping" means sleeping? [12:15] and I would be perfectly happy calling "quorblagging" a word, even if I did not know what it meant [12:15] it's just a word I don't know [12:15] True. So now it has word status and I see no problem with that. [12:15] Logomaniac, language acquisition. [12:15] but it's still not really a word [12:15] Sure it is. [12:15] It's not a widely-accepted word, but it's a word. [12:16] yup [12:16] alright then [12:16] so there's a separate implication of "not a word" that we might want to deal with [12:17] right [12:17] people say, I don't know, "invalidness" is not a word [12:17] even though it has all the hallmarks of a word [12:17] because if I can make quorblagging a word, then what isn't a word? [12:17] "not a word" unless appears in 3 independant places spaced by a year? [12:17] would be useful if our defintion matched CFI :) [12:17] :) [12:18] Logomaniac, I mean there are therefore two meanings of 'word' [12:18] the technical one [12:18] I'd say quorblagging is a word, it's a nonce word [12:18] and ... the one that says [12:18] but not a word according to def 2 [12:18] with this meaning being something like "word (sense 1) that appears in common usage or a dictionary" [12:19] "any string of letters that lots of people use to mean something" [12:19] it's definitly not just letters [12:19] yeah, this is actually before we get into the multiple definitions of "word" used just within linguistics [12:19] alright, that was just off the top of my head [12:19] gotta go soon [12:20] pity, [12:20] syntactic words, prosodic words, orthographical words [12:20] etc etc [12:20] I think I'll save this discussion [12:21] yes [12:21] good discussion [12:21] Cassowaries, the term "prosodic word" was used repeatedly in my phonology class in the context of OT, but our professor couldn't explain it. Any help? [12:21] so "red herring" is a word [12:21] Mglovesfun, most definitely, but it's also two words [12:22] depending on what definition you're using [12:22] probably for a linguist yes, but for the common man, no [12:22] exactly [12:22] well, linguists just ignore spaces [12:22] most people would tell me it's two words [12:22] "herringbone" is one word and two words as well [12:22] lol [12:22] Leftmost, hmm [12:22] my name is John [12:22] would anyone ignore those spaces? [12:22] Mglovesfun, we ignore the spaces and then reconstruct what the words should be [12:23] so we'd end up with the same number of words as 'the common man' [12:23] good one [12:23] but in "this is a red herring", we wouldn't [12:23] well, maybe [12:23] see [[set phrase]] [12:23] http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/set_phrase [12:23] anyway [12:24] (needs t-gloss) [12:24] Leftmost, it's actually hard to adequately define [12:24] I find it intuitive, though [12:25] I (and most averaeg people you ask) would probably say "this is a red herring" is not a word, it's five words [12:25] but it's a phrase [12:25] "this is a red-herring" ? [12:26] ok, then, four [12:26] I would just say it's "four or five words" [12:26] so not very different [12:26] but red herring is two words which have one meaning [12:26] red-herring <- one word [12:26] All I have to go on, though, is "prosody" and "word". The combination of the two doesn't lead me to an immediate understanding. [12:26] it is idiomatic then (: [12:27] anyway, hierarchy of prosodic constituents: [12:27] mora - syllable - foot - prosodic word - phonological phrase - intonational phrase - phonological utterance [12:28] Ahh, so a unit composed of prosodic feet? [12:28] yes, helpful huh [12:28] Well, works for me.:) [12:28] but it essentially means that "I'm" or "to go" are prosodic words [12:29] hmm [12:29] they happen to also be feet, and the former is also a syllable [12:29] but you know [12:29] Yeah. [12:29] the latter is a syntactic word, right? [12:29] and the former is definitely not [12:31] .? syntactic [12:31] syntactic — adjective: 1. Of, related to or connected with syntax [12:31] >_> [12:31] .? syntax [12:31] syntax — noun: 1. A set of rules that govern how words are combined to form phrases and sentences, 2. (computing, countable) The formal rules of formulating the statements of a computer language [12:31] right [12:31] can I get a copy of those rules? [12:31] haha [12:31] do a masters in syntax [12:31] and you'll get a fifth of them [12:32] o_O [12:32] um [12:32] aren't they downloadable on the internet somewhere [12:32] or on wikipedia [12:32] by no means [12:33] [12:33] they're in your head already though [12:33] I took a class on syntax this semester. We got a really, really brief introduction to the theory up to 1985. [12:33] so you've already got more of a copy than linguistics has in total discovered [12:33] right... [12:33] *** opio has joined #wiktionary [12:33] ok [12:33] hello opio [12:34] opio: Without looking at a dictionary, what do you think of as a word? [12:34] incidentally [12:34] I just realised I don't know whether English diphthongs are monomoraic or bimoraic [12:34] as a word? [12:34] my instinct is that they're bimoraic, but I don't honestly know [12:35] uh [12:35] well. anything that conveys meaning, i suppose [12:35] are we differentiating between word and term? [12:35] so you'd call "un-" a word? [12:35] Cassowaries, hmm. I'd guess bimoraic too, but not sure. [12:35] is 'quorblagging', which I made up to mean 'sleeping' about 15 minutes ago, a word [12:35] i'd call un- a prefix [12:35] but it conveys meaning, surely [12:35] Is there any way they could be like, 1.5 morae? [12:36] dunno [12:36] probably not [12:36] yes, i suppose. i guess that brings up the question 'is a prefix a word' [12:36] I would say no [12:36] "anything that conveys meaning", or rather the smallest thing that can convey meaning, is a morpheme [12:36] i don't really care either way... this is one of those debates that never will get anywhere [12:36] [[literally]] [12:36] which can be but is not a word [12:36] http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/literally [12:37] *** Mglovesfun has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.6/20091201220228]") [12:37] anyway, Leftmost, I know languages vary on their treatment [12:37] perhaps, then, any non-affix that conveys meaning [12:37] and some, like Old English, have both monomoraic and bimoraic diphthongs [12:37] or [12:37] the things between spaces in a sentence [12:37] there, that's a word. [12:37] haha [12:37] but is 'quorblagging' a word? [12:38] it doesn't convey meaning to me [12:38] it means 'sleeping' [12:38] but then, neither do lots of words [12:38] because i don't know them [12:38] now is it a word? [12:38] If I tell you it means 'sleeping' [12:38] yeah, i caught that earlier [12:38] is it a word [12:38] yes [12:38] not necessarily a valid one lol [12:38] yeah [12:38] so Logomaniac, this is the discussion we've all just had [12:38] right [12:38] so at least know opio is like us [12:39] we know* [12:39] I'm getting another opinion tho [12:39] I dunno, it might be dangerous to have me in your group [12:39] How about "red herring", opio? Is that a word? [12:39] * opio tends to attract controversy [12:39] I would call red herring a term, at first glance [12:39] because it's two words with no hyphen [12:39] but I don't know what a term or word is "officially" [12:40] so you'd say "red herring" is a term, not a word [12:40] because it's two words [12:40] right? [12:41] it depends [12:41] does wiktionary include terms? [12:41] if not, then i would modify my opinions for the purposes of this conversation :D [12:41] but yes [12:41] we aren't talking about wikt >_> [12:41] alright [12:42] Alright, I must away. Ta. [12:42] *** Leftmost has quit ("Ex-Chat") [12:42] soo... the question raised earlier but not answered [12:42] What then is not a word? [12:42] what isn't a word? [12:42] a sentence [12:42] >_> [12:42] >_> [12:42] define term [12:42] 'term' is English: A limitation, restriction or regulation. terms and conditions A word or phrase, especially one from a specialised area of knowledge. Relations among people. [12:42] lol [12:42] not quite what i was looking for [12:42] I suppose we'd all agree that 'ieoidsldas' is not a word [12:43] because it carries no meaning [12:43] none that i know [12:43] are names words? [12:43] and I just randomly typed it. [12:43] not all names carry meaning [12:43] especially negro names ^_^ [12:43] names carry meaning in the same way "I" carries meaning [12:43] it points out a person [12:43] But the name "opio" carries the meaning that it's you [12:43] yes [12:43] "A word or phrase, especially one from a specialised area of knowledge." [12:44] term^ [12:44] so term is even more broad than word [12:44] so i guess i would call red herring a phrase [12:44] term needs a better definition [12:44] i guess i would have to * [12:44] I'd call red herring both a term and phrase [12:45] well, if a term can be a word or a phrase, then yes [12:45] in the same way that a square is a rectangle [12:45] but ieoidsldas becomes a word as soon as I give it a meaning? [12:45] I dunno, it might be dangerous to have me in your group [12:45] If I give it the meaning "blanket" then is ieoidsldas a word? [12:45] yes, but what would the point be? lol [12:45] you're in the group of "people who aren't really sure but have various conflicting intuitions I guess" [12:45] which includes most linguists [12:45] so I'm happy [12:46] Trying to figure out what isn't a word [12:46] well, on wiktionary there are a number of people with whom i make absolutely no attempt to be civil [12:46] Too much effort vs not enough payoff [12:46] why logo? [12:47] Logomaniac, yes, it would be a word then [12:47] So that we can have better definitions at [[word]], [[term]] and [[phrase]] [12:47] http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/word | http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/term | http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/phrase [12:47] an unusual one, but a word [12:47] alright [12:47] so a word is only a string of letters (or symbols or sounds) that carries a meaning [12:47] why symbols? [12:47] chinese [12:48] that would make mathematical equations words [12:48] but it would also be a word if you didn't give it a meaning but just said "I've never liked ieoidsldas" (and there was no transmission error) [12:48] i wouldn't use the words symbols, it's too vague [12:48] alright [12:48] which I suppose carries an implicit meaning [12:48] but i can't think of anything else offhand that would describe what chinese characters are [12:48] so we're all leaning towards the semantic interpretation of what a word is [12:48] which is pretty much our definition [12:48] pretty much [12:49] is logograph a word? [12:49] but does 'ieoidsldas' contain morphemes? [12:49] define logograph [12:49] 'logograph' is English: a character or symbol that represents a word or phrase; a logogram. [12:49] or phonemes? [12:49] Logomaniac, one [12:49] there, that's what a chinese symbol can be [12:49] we don't know what phonemes it consists of [12:49] ideogram [12:49] its graphemes are very unusual for English [12:49] hmm [12:49] or rather, its combination of graphemes [12:50] but we assume it contains phonemes which correspond, however loosely, to the graphemes [12:50] morphemes are the smallest units of language that carry meaning, right? [12:50] yes [12:50] like affixes and such [12:50] but also like "apple" [12:50] ah yes [12:50] i guess that would make everything in chinese a morpheme [12:50] i mean every individual character^ [12:51] it means they represent morphemes, sure [12:51] I say that in that pedantic way [12:51] hm [12:51] because you both keep talking about "symbols" [12:51] which is true [12:51] but morphemes are symbols [12:52] (phonemes are not) [12:52] sooo ... our definition of [[word]] needs no changing [12:52] http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/word [12:52] ?? [12:52] I don't think so [12:52] in that it's accurate [12:52] define phrase [12:52] 'phrase' is English: A short written or spoken expression. (grammar) A word or group of words that functions as a single unit in the syntax of a sentence, usually consisting of a head, or central word, and elaborating words. (music) A small section of music in a larger piece.. [12:52] How about that [12:52] I wouldn't worry about improving our english definitions [12:53] if things keep going the way they have been, wiktionary is always going to suck [12:53] from some aspect or another [12:53] well, that has the same drawback that our definition of 'word' has [12:53] well, if we improve the definitions of word, phrase, idiom, term etc [12:53] it focuses on one aspect of language (in this case syntax, in word's case morphology) [12:53] to the exclusion of other aspects [12:53] then we can improve CFI [12:53] and then improve wikt [12:54] so actually [12:54] if we say "prosodic word" and try to interpret it using our definitions [12:54] we're going to get the wrong answer [12:55] because a prosodic word is not about morphemes, in that it's blind to whether they exist or not [12:55] anyway [12:56] I'm not confident this is going to get anywhere [12:56] *** Typhoon has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.15/2009101601]") [12:56] and I need to run off now [12:56] so trah [12:56] cya