User talk:Calak

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Enjoy your stay at Wiktionary! . --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 20:20, 29 March 2017 (UTC)Reply

Hi. Please use the language name "Central Kurdish" and the code ckb for Sorani (or Central) Kurdish. --Vahag (talk) 14:05, 12 July 2017 (UTC)Reply

@Vahagn Petrosyan Yes I know, thank you.--Calak (talk) 18:25, 12 July 2017 (UTC)Reply

…for the Iranian descendants on Proto-Indo-Iranian entries. —Aryaman ^{(मुझसे बात करो)} 01:53, 1 August 2017 (UTC)Reply

Hi Calak, I read on the Beer parlour that who knows the four Kurdish dialects (or languages). On the French Wiktionary, I am looking for the translations for the word "water" in all the languages of the planet. So, if you know it could you give the translation of "water" in Central Kurdish, Northern Kurdish, Southern Kurdish and Laki languages? Thank you in advance. Pamputt (talk) 21:56, 2 September 2017 (UTC)Reply

Pamputt, you have seen water#Translations, right? It seems a little silly to be working on the same project in different Wiktionaries and not cooperating. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 22:12, 2 September 2017 (UTC)Reply

@Metaknowledge I completely agree that we should cooperate for that topic (and for other as well ;-) ). Concerning water#Translations, I had a look just after posting this message here and actually it is fine since the translations for the four Kurdish languages are not yet present on this page. So, if Calak knows the translations, it could be added in water#Translations as well. Pamputt (talk) 22:27, 2 September 2017 (UTC)Reply

Actually, two of them already are present there. Southern Kurdish and Laki are missing (although those two dialects are quite similar). —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 22:31, 2 September 2017 (UTC)Reply

Hey guys, I added Southern Kurdish and Laki + Hawrami.--Calak (talk) 22:52, 2 September 2017 (UTC)Reply

Hi. Are you sure panjâr is a misspelling? I got it from Rhea. In modernized spelling it normalizes to pencar, which is different from pincar. Perhaps it is a dialectal form and not a misspelling. --Vahag (talk) 18:47, 24 September 2017 (UTC)Reply

Barev! There are several romanization for Kurdish language; we shouldn't follow them, Kurdish has its formal alphabet. If u want to keep this entry, plz move it without redirect to pencar. Yes, it is a dialectal form (). Thanks.--Calak (talk) 19:04, 24 September 2017 (UTC)Reply

I agree that we should modernize the spellings. We need a conversion table between Kurdish alphabets like the one I made for Udi: Wiktionary:Udi transliteration. --Vahag (talk) 19:21, 24 September 2017 (UTC)Reply

@Vahagn Petrosyan: Yeah good idea. Vahagn do you have any information about Armenian alphabet for northern Kurdish? I researched about it but couldn't complete it.--Calak (talk) 19:35, 24 September 2017 (UTC)Reply

No, I don't have information on the Armenian alphabet. Russian Wikipedia has this table. --Vahag (talk) 13:51, 25 September 2017 (UTC)Reply

I think you have conflated two unrelated roots here, one with a short a meaning ‘chariot’ and the other with a long ā meaning ‘way, road’. --Vahag (talk) 15:18, 29 September 2017 (UTC)Reply

I am not sure Vahag, however I created Reconstruction:Proto-Iranian/rāθa-.--Calak (talk) 18:57, 2 October 2017 (UTC)Reply

That entry is still confounding two roots, i.e. the Avestan word is for charioteer, not path, and is also not compatible with that reconstruction. The reconstruction itself is also incorrect, lacking the laryngeal (assuming it's from the same PIE root), and in stem form, when it should be in nom.sg. --Victar (talk) 20:29, 2 October 2017 (UTC)Reply

I've fixed it up. Let me know if you have any questions. --Victar (talk) 22:39, 2 October 2017 (UTC)Reply

@Victar Thank you for moving that page. @Vahag My resource for avestan word raⁱϑīm was Ľubomír Novák (2013):

170. (53.) road / path

rōs / rōt  rʾδ(h) rʾδ(δ)(h) rʾϑ /rāϑ/

< rāϑa-, rāϑi-; Ave. raⁱϑīm (acc.), Pasht. lār < *rāl, dial. lyār < *rāϑī-; Ōrm. rāī, Pers. rāh, rās, TMast. ra, TVarz. ro(h), ra(h), Pahl. rās, Kurd. rê, Balōch. rā(h); Ved. ratʰy -, Armen. ṙah

--Calak (talk) 15:22, 3 October 2017 (UTC)Reply

@Calak: See Skjærvø (2006) "Old Avestan Glossary". --Victar (talk) 18:33, 3 October 2017 (UTC)Reply

Hey Calak, when ordering languages in descendant trees, you need to ignore modifiers, like Old and West, so that Parthian actually comes before Old Persian. --Victar (talk) 16:07, 7 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

Discussion moved to Wiktionary talk:About Persian.

Hey Calak, thanks for creating PIr entries from PII entries! If you could though, please add {{see desc}} or {{desctree}} to the PII entry descendents trees, so we don't have duplicate data. Thanks! --Victar (talk) 22:23, 20 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

Sure, thank you!--Calak (talk) 22:24, 20 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

Great, and keep up the good work! --Victar (talk) 22:26, 20 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

Calak, I noticed that you added |2=- to {{desc|inc-pro}} on *ĵʰáyas. If a level can be reconstructed, it shouldn't be nulled-out so that it can be added to a term requests category, ex. Proto-Indo-Aryan term requests --Victar (talk) 23:53, 22 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

Hey Calak, is there some reason you're still adding PII entries in stem form? We've chosen to add reconstructed entries in nom.sg. For instance, *pr̥šta- should be moved to *pr̥štas. Could you fix your entries to reflect this? Thank you. --Victar (talk) 06:00, 25 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

Hi Victar. Thank you for your explanation. Yes I know but when I am not sure about nom. form leave them in stem form.--Calak (talk) 12:13, 25 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

If you have the thematic vowel and gender, it's usually pretty straightforward from there. And if you make a mistake, don't worry, one of us will be even faster to correct you! =P --Victar (talk) 19:22, 25 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

Calak, here is an example from an entry you just created. *Haĉwatará- is 1. an a-stem, and illustrated by the thematic vowel, and 2. masculine in gender. This means that the nom.sg. ends in *-s. Please fix this entry, along with the PIR descendant, and this one *Haĉwabārá-. Thanks! --Victar (talk) 04:27, 27 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Victar: Thank you. How about unknown gender like this?--Calak (talk) 12:43, 27 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

Both male and female i-stem nouns end in *-iš. Are you sure this is an i-stem though? It seems like the etymology of the second element is fully fleshed out. Also, no PII reconstructed lemmas should be hyphenated. This is a good paper on PII declension tables, if you remember to reconstruct the largyangals. --Victar (talk) 15:40, 27 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Victar: Thank you for your guidance. Yes, in all resources reconstructed form is an i-stem (compare Achaemenid Elamite loanwords aspā̆stiya and asā̆stiya), but I am not sure it is Haĉwasti- or Haĉwāsti- or Haĉwa-asti-.--Calak (talk) 18:11, 27 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

Neither. The second element has a laryangal so it would be *-aHa-. --Victar (talk) 18:16, 27 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

Just FYI, the header level for references is 3 (===), not 4 (====). Thanks! --Victar (talk) 04:14, 27 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

@AryamanA, sending you a ping you as well. --Victar (talk) 04:20, 27 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

Hey Calak, you're still making the references headers at the wrong level, as with *stʰuHrás. --Victar (talk) 01:22, 1 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Victar Hi. No, you should ping AryamanA!--Calak (talk) 01:25, 1 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

@AryamanA --Victar (talk) 01:27, 1 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Victar: Oops, sorry! I always thought they were level 4. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 01:28, 1 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

@AryamanA: =) --Victar (talk) 01:31, 1 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Victar: What makes it worse is {{hi-new}} has always added level 4 reference headings, so now there are thousands of Hindi entries with the wrong format... —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 01:35, 1 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

@AryamanA: LOL. Bot fix? --Victar (talk) 01:37, 1 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

If the reference only applies to that particular part of speech it's fine to have level 4 references headers. DTLHS (talk) 01:37, 1 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

You are forgetting to add {{reconstructed}} though. --Victar (talk) 02:22, 1 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

Calak, perhaps you think this is optional, but it's not. --Victar (talk) 20:34, 5 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

No I forgot. Thank you.--Calak (talk) 20:41, 5 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

Thanks! --Victar (talk) 21:45, 5 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

Hi Calak, Encyclopædia Iranica isn't peer-reviewed, and should be avoided when citing reconstructions. --Victar (talk) 17:00, 19 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

Also, when you can, please use inline references, so we know what you're actually citing in the reconstructions, be it the etymology, a descendent, or the reconstruction it. Thanks. --Victar (talk) 17:03, 19 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

Hi Victar. I never use Iranica as reconstruction source, just use it for descendants. That article is written by Garnik Asatrian, a famous historical linguistic.--Calak (talk) 19:10, 19 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

Cool, but then you're not adding a source for your reconstruction, which is more important. Also, despite the fame of the author, still not peer-reviewed. --Victar (talk) 19:16, 19 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

Yea, In that case PIIr had source, so I didn't copy-paste source to PIr, but I added new source for new descendants.--Calak (talk) 19:39, 19 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

The PII entry you created the PIr from had sources for both the PII and the PIr, so you forgot to move over the PIr source. More to the point though, please try and add sources for the actual reconstructions your create. Citing the descendants really isn't necessary, unless something is contentious. I think it was Tropylium that said, "sources or it didn't happen", haha. --Victar (talk) 19:53, 19 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

Calak, the etymology of *dmáHnam needs explaining. How does one go from *demh₂- to *dmeh₂- and not *dm̥h₂- If you have any sources. please add. Thanks. --Victar (talk) 21:05, 24 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

Hi, Yes this is my source. Thanks.--Calak (talk) 19:23, 25 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, Calak. Would you mind adding it to the page, as per my {{rfv-etymology}} request? Thank you. @Vahagn Petrosyan, if you have a few moments, could you go over this Russian source? --Victar (talk) 20:22, 25 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Victar, the Russian source treats PIE *dem- (“to build”) and *demh₂- (“to tame”) as separate roots. It derives IIr. dmāna from PIE *dm-eh₂-no, from *dem- (“to build”).

By the way, the second part of գերեզման (gerezman) is from this etymon. --Vahag (talk) 10:39, 27 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

Calak, I think you're using Inscriptional Pahlavi script where it should be Book Pahlavi. Case in point, *náyĵžʰam. --Victar (talk) 15:13, 3 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

Yes, you are right Victar. Please correct it. Thanks.--Calak (talk) 19:14, 3 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

Fixed. --Victar (talk) 19:20, 3 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

Hi! Can you help me find the modern spelling and identify the variety (Kurmanji/Sorani) of the Kurdish word zok, zuq meaning "pair" found in Jaba, Auguste, Justi, Ferdinand (1879) Dictionnaire Kurde-Français , Saint Petersburg: Imperial Academy of Sciences, page 226? It is borrowed from զոյգ (zoyg). --Vahag (talk) 12:29, 23 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Vahag: Barev! It is an obsolete word in northern Kurdish. The correct spelling is zoq.--Calak (talk) 18:12, 23 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

Thanks. I made zoq. The obsolence must be the reason I can't find the word in any modern dictionary. --Vahag (talk) 18:30, 23 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

The same question about tirtil, tirtir "caterpillar". What's the modern spelling, Kurdish variety and meaning? See Jaba, Auguste, Justi, Ferdinand (1879) Dictionnaire Kurde-Français , Saint Petersburg: Imperial Academy of Sciences, page 275a. I find Northern Kurdish tirtire (“a kind of leaf-eating worm”) and tirtirk (“butterfly; grasshopper”) in Kurdoev, but these do not have the same form and meaning. --Vahag (talk) 15:51, 26 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Vahag: In fact it means "caterpillar track". It is an onomatopoeia word, from tirr. The correct spelling is tirrtirre.--Calak (talk) 17:41, 26 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

That can't be the whole story. The sense "caterpillar track" is obviously an extension of the basic meaning "caterpillar", as in other languages. I found the forms tirtûl, tertûr but I am not sure if they are Kurmanji. All of these are borrowed from Armenian թրթուր (tʻrtʻur). --Vahag (talk) 20:22, 26 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Vahag: Found it. It has three forms tertûl, tirtûl, turtûr. It seems that the main form is tirtûl.--Calak (talk) 21:20, 26 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

Thank you for verifying the spellings. --Vahag (talk) 15:45, 27 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

Hello, please could you check the etymology here (not added by me)? Thank you. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 17:11, 13 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

Hello, done.--Calak (talk) 16:17, 16 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

Thank you, Mr or Ms Calak. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 18:34, 23 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

Can you check the spelling of Kurdish cognates in چغندر (čoğondar)? --Vahag (talk) 17:38, 22 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

Hi Vahag. Where is your source for NK çarkindêle “carrot”? Evidently it means “beet”. I have no source but is seems that it is an Armenian loanword (an early borrowing before changing ł to fricative γ, i.e before the 12th century).--Calak (talk) 18:44, 22 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

My sources were Jaba, Auguste, Justi, Ferdinand (1879) Dictionnaire Kurde-Français , Saint Petersburg: Imperial Academy of Sciences, page 124 and Cabolov as quoted in the Persian page. I can find çarkindêle in many other dictionaries, some glossing it as "beet". Perhaps the word has both meanings. Ačaṙean too argues for an Armenian origin, but he proceeds from the assumption that ճակնդեղ (čakndeł) is a native formation with դեղ (deł). That is probably wrong. The interrelationship of all these forms is unclear to me. --Vahag (talk) 19:46, 22 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Vahag: Thank you. I think that Kurdish çewender is inherited but NK çarkindêle probably is an Armenian loanword.--Calak (talk) 20:06, 22 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

Thank you for creating Old Armenian entries. Can you please add {{attention|xcl|expand}} to them, so that I can later find them and flesh them out? --Vahag (talk) 20:39, 2 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

Sure! Thanks.--Calak (talk) 20:44, 2 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

Hello again! Do you use some specific source for Armenian etymologies? For example, where did you find this? --Vahag (talk) 11:21, 22 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Vahag: Hi! Yes, I found it here. Now I know the etymology of մարգարէ is wrong. I wanted to talk about it. Please read this pdf and correct it if you have time. Thanks.--Calak (talk) 11:28, 22 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

Interesting. Korn doesn't mention պաշտպան (paštpan), but it fits into the mysterious group showing an -ar- < PIr. *r̥ development. You can cite Korn using {{R:xcl:Korn:2013}}. I don't have time to deal with մարգարէ (margarē) now, but I wouldn't discard the traditional etymology so easily. The correspondence with Sogdian mārkarē 'soothsayer' is just too perfect, while Gippert's hypothetical *marγa-δē 'bird-watcher' would have no attested cognates in Iranian. --Vahag (talk) 19:26, 22 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

Calak, again, please don't create root and stem entries, as you did with *Hnax-. If you don't know what the full forms are, it's better to leave it at the PII or PIE entry for someone else to do. You also created a lot of outdated and incorrect reconstructions, like *naxau̯ara-. --Victar (talk) 14:57, 10 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

Well I don't create anything without reliable resources. It seems that you have not checked the resource.--Calak (talk) 16:51, 10 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

Yes, I have checked the source, but it is irrelevant to the issue at hand. Most published works reconstruct PII and PIr in stem form, but on this project, we do not, and instead reconstructions are in nom.sg. and 3sg. If you lack the knowledge to do so, please take my recommendation and add the information to parent entries, without creating child stem entries. Thanks. --Victar (talk) 17:07, 10 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

I have no problem about your guidance and receive them. I just followed PII from here (that was in stem form).--Calak (talk) 17:55, 10 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

Hello. Please bear in mind that {{etyl}} is deprecated; we now use {{bor}} (for borrowed terms), {{inh}} (for inherited terms) or {{der}} (when we can't or don't want to specify the relationship) in its place. Thank you! Per utramque cavernam 10:20, 28 December 2018 (UTC)Reply

Yes you are right, I forgot. Thanks.--Calak (talk) 10:24, 28 December 2018 (UTC)Reply

Hey Calak, do you have a source that gives the etymology of Northern Kurdish hêvî, Central Kurdish ھیوا (hîwa), Southern Kurdish ھِمێ (himê)? --{{victar|talk}} 19:55, 5 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

Hi Victar. Kurdish etymology resources are very limited, but consider Intervocalic MIr. m > NK. v, CK and partly SK w. Check "Ferhenga Kurmancî-lnglîzî" by MICHAEL L CHYET, hêvî entry, pp 252-253--Calak (talk) 20:20, 5 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

I have -- he gives no etymology. Like mentioned in here, the MP looks to me to be better derived from Proto-Iranian *hamwátiš. So I'm wondering where that leaves these Kurdish forms. --{{victar|talk}} 20:32, 5 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

FYI, see this paper. --{{victar|talk}} 00:18, 23 April 2019 (UTC)Reply

victar: he refers to another article. Well I read it, he purposes this chain: mēγ > mē > meh .--Calak (talk) 08:12, 23 April 2019 (UTC)Reply

Yep, I agree. --{{victar|talk}} 08:16, 23 April 2019 (UTC)Reply

victar: I don't disagree, but I think mih in other Iranian languages should be a loanword from Persian.--Calak (talk) 08:19, 23 April 2019 (UTC)Reply

/ɣ/ > /y/ is common in all modern WIr. languages. --{{victar|talk}} 08:27, 23 April 2019 (UTC)Reply

RMaung (WMF) 14:34, 9 September 2019 (UTC)Reply

RMaung (WMF) 19:14, 20 September 2019 (UTC)Reply

RMaung (WMF) 17:04, 4 October 2019 (UTC)Reply

Oof, with a controversial etymology like that, you need to provide some sources. --{{victar|talk}} 10:14, 17 December 2019 (UTC)Reply

I'm confused, why did you move şeket to شەکەت? Shouldn't the word have a Latin-script entry? Southern Kurdish is listed as using both Latin and Arabic scripts in its category page.

I moved the entry back to şeket and then moved شەكەت to شەکەت instead to fix the spelling. Then I got confused between Kurdish languages and deleted şeket because Central Kurdish doesn't use Latin script, then undeleted it because the entry was Southern Kurdish, not Central Kurdish. I'm sorry for all this mess due to my unfamiliarity with the differences between the languages. I should have asked for clarification first. — Eru·tuon 20:30, 31 December 2019 (UTC)Reply

Hi @Erutuon: All Kurdish dialects (ckb, sdh, lki) except kmr use Arabic script. We don't need Latin script for these dialects. In Iraqi Kurdistan, kmr uses Arabic script as well. --Calak (talk) 20:32, 31 December 2019 (UTC)Reply

Calak, a few things I need to point out with your *Háĉru entry: 1. it should be at *Hácru instead, which is how we're transcribing it now, 2. it was missing {{reconstruction}}, and 3. please add sources to new reconstruction entries you create, even if you're copy pasting them from an existing one. --{{victar|talk}} 09:59, 14 January 2020 (UTC)Reply

In the linked discussion people seem to prefer ć, also claiming that it is most common in academia. So why c? ć is equally easy to type with a mildly reasonable keyboard layout, and c is horribly ambigous, I don’t even know how Calak’s name is pronounced because of this. /t͡ʃalak/, /d͡ʒalak/, /t͡ʃʲalak/, /t͡salak/, /kalak/, or /ʕalak/. Really. And it is inconsistent even with Proto-Indo-Iranian. Fay Freak (talk) 13:10, 15 January 2020 (UTC)Reply

Thank you for your guidance Victar, I will consider them. For c I also agree with Fay Freak. For example c and j stand for t͡ʃ and d͡ʒ respectively in Avestan transliteration (@Fay Freak: ,"framed":false,"label":"Reply","flags":,"classes":}'>Reply

Either of you are welcome to bring it up in the discussion linked above.

To my second point, Calak, can you please include sources in the entry? It's been a over a week since my request. Thanks. --{{victar|talk}} 22:35, 23 January 2020 (UTC)Reply

Hi there. I see you're doing some work in Kurdish. That's great! We don't have much coverage for the language, which is probably not so surprising actually. Anyway, what we do have is some very simple entries, which were made by a robot over ten years ago, and which nobody has checked, so they could be incomplete or wrong. You can see them at Category:Tbot entries (Kurdish) (343 at the moment). It would be great if you could check some of the pages in that category, and remove the Tbot tag at the bottom of the page. --Gorgehater (talk) 15:40, 4 April 2020 (UTC)Reply

Hi. Sure, I will check them gradually.--Calak (talk) 06:49, 5 April 2020 (UTC)Reply