User talk:Joonas07

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Enjoy your stay at Wiktionary! PseudoSkull (talk) 17:51, 22 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

I think you're doing it wrong... Equinox ◑ 21:25, 1 November 2019 (UTC)Reply

Right now I'm making rhyme categories for Estonian (Category:Estonian rhymes/e-, Category:Estonian rhymes/u-, etc) and I'm going to add pages to those later on. How would you do it then? Joonas07 21:29, 1 November 2019 (UTC)Reply

What is the trailing hyphen in the page title for? e.g. in English we have Rhymes:English/əʊz and it displays as -əʊz (not əʊz-). Equinox ◑ 21:32, 1 November 2019 (UTC)Reply

Your example is a rhyme page not a rhyme category - I'm making categories. I'm not going to do that for rhyme pages. Joonas07 21:38, 1 November 2019 (UTC)Reply

Oh, my mistake. Sorry. The fact they're blank (not yet filled) raised my suspicion basically. Equinox ◑ 21:39, 1 November 2019 (UTC)Reply

It's okay. I'm going to add pages when the categories are complete. Joonas07 21:41, 1 November 2019 (UTC)Reply

I don't think Rhymes:Estonian/ine is how rhymes work. These terms are, for the most part, stressed on the first syllable. —Rua (mew) 14:37, 9 November 2019 (UTC)Reply

Hi, am I right in thinking that in kaheksateistkümnene, for example, there should be two overlong vowels (the -ei- and the -ü-)? The {{et-IPA}} template claims to include the overlength when you add a "`" symbol but it doesn't seem to work. Cheers, BigDom 12:37, 30 December 2019 (UTC)Reply

Hi, the -ei- and -ü- are both overlong vowels, but the -küm- syllable (and thus the -ü- vowel) isn't stressed. Have a great day! - Joonas07 (talk) 15:47, 30 December 2019 (UTC)Reply

But this is my point - shouldn't the template indicate the length of the -ei-? At the moment it's just long (diphthong), rather than overlong. Am I mistaken? BigDom 16:01, 30 December 2019 (UTC)Reply

You mean, that the ` symbol should make a visual difference in the IPA, as in adding the ː mark after the diphtong? In my opinion, it isn't necessary, it makes no significant difference. - Joonas07 (talk) 19:25, 30 December 2019 (UTC)Reply

Fair enough. So in speech would you be able to tell the difference? Sorry if it's a silly question - I've been interested in Estonian for a while but the three vowel length system has really put me off so far so I'm trying to understand it a little better. BigDom 08:01, 31 December 2019 (UTC)Reply

I don't think any native speaker, including me, would be able to tell the difference in speech. It's not a silly question, it's perfectly normal to have a hard time understanding aspects of a completely foreign language. In my opinion, learning the system and phonology behind suprasegmental length makes it overly complicated. Even as a native speaker, I don't have a full understanding of suprasegmental length either, it just comes naturally for me. Keep on learning, you'll get it eventually! - Joonas07 (talk) 16:59, 31 December 2019 (UTC)Reply

Hello Joonas07,

Really sorry for the inconvenience. This is a gentle note to request that you check your email. We sent you a message titled "The Community Insights survey is coming!". If you have questions, email [email protected].

You can see my explanation here.

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 18:48, 25 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Also @Strombones. I feel like the current IPA transcriptions for Estonian are quite confusing: Even though it's supposed to be phonemic, it shows semi-voicing (a purely phonetic feature), uses stress to show length and overlength, rather than length symbols (ˑː) and uses one stress symbol for both primary and secondary stress.

Looking at pool for instance, if I hadn't read the entirity of the Wikipedia page on Estonian phonology, I would have no clue as to how it's pronounced and why it's transcribed /pˈoːl/ and not /ˈpoːl/, which kind of beats the purpose of a pronunciation section: Natives usually already know how the word is pronounced, and learners can't make heads or tails of the transcription system.

As such I have quickly written an alternative IPA module (Module:User:Thadh/et-IPA; see also User:Thadh/test for a simple demonstration), which I personally feel is more useful to readers. Now, I do not speak Estonian, so it's probably incomplete, contains some errors and uses symbols that you might not feel comfortable with (I don't know the Estonian tradition of indicating length and stress, so I just used ˈ'*- and hoped for the best).

So, what do you think? And if you agree regarding the complexity of the current module, can you spot some errors in my module so I can fix them? Feel free to edit the test page, or use {{T:User:Thadh/et-IPA}} yourself to test out some features. Ette aitäh! Thadh (talk) 12:24, 17 September 2022 (UTC)Reply

Hey! To be honest, I've never paid much attention to the IPA module, and I've only used it for indicating places where spelling doesn't indicate pronunciation (such as palatalisation, overlong vowels, or dialectal/informal pronunciations). The /p'o:l/ instead of /'po:l/ thing is taken from ÕS, which marks stress this way. Fixing this would be good, I don't know why it was done this way here. For the stops, the current method of marking gbd with the devoiced diacritic is fine and is used elsewhere. For overlong vowels, the current method of ":" for long and "::" for overlong seems fine imo, and I'm pretty sure this is the most common transcription. The half-length diacritic isn't wrong per se, but idk. As for your examples, "händ" and "hänt" shouldn't be homophones. Final -d and -t are always distinguished, they are only merged initially (in foreign words), and in some cases you might even hear some sort of voicing here for written gbd, especially for partially adopted words. Strombones (talk) 13:53, 17 September 2022 (UTC)Reply

I disagree with the current method of ":" for long and "::" for overlong being fine, I think it's more neat if "ˑ" represented long and ":" overlong. Joonas07 (talk) 14:22, 17 September 2022 (UTC)Reply

The Estonian IPA template is indeed not very thorough or well put together and I agree there are quite a few problems with it. I don't know why the stress marker is before the vowel and not before the syllable being stressed in a lot of Estonian entries, but it's most likely taken directly from ÕS (the ÕS entry for 'pool'). In every Estonian entry I've created myself I've always put the stress marker before the syllable, not the vowel. Taking a look at your test page now:

• bdg should not be transcribed as /ptk/, the current transcription of /b̥d̥ɡ̊/ works well. Therefore, ptk should be transcribed as such, /ptk/, not /pˑ, tˑ, kˑ/.
• About secondary stress, it would make more sense for it to be represented by a new parameter, rather than - (or at the very least +) – secondary stress mostly occurs in compound words. I have always done compound words as two separate parameters in the template (for example in vastupidavus: {{et-IPA|vastu|pidavus}}, which creates IPA^(key): /ˈvɑstu/, , /ˈpid̥ɑvus/, ). I'm not sure if it's possible to code that the second (and third etc) parameters have seconday stress, but if not, the more logical option would be to use + ({{et-IPA|vastu+pidavus}})
• I don't know about * to represent half-length either, but I don't have a better proposal.

(just now read Strombones's answer as well and realised it mostly mirrors what I said) Joonas07 (talk) 14:21, 17 September 2022 (UTC)Reply

Also, there needs to remain some way of showing the pronunciation of words that are not stressed on the first syllable, which the current template enables but yours doesn't (?). If your template is to be implemented, there will probably emerge more issues that I didn't think about right now, as it's being used for different words. Joonas07 (talk) 14:26, 17 September 2022 (UTC)Reply

The way with my template for now is just adding the stress mark (ˈ) before the stressed syllable, like IPA^(key): /ɑi̯ˈtæh/, (it doesn't add initial stress if it can find a stress mark in the first parameter), maybe there's a better way to do this?

Sure, I could change p-pˑ to b̥-p quite easily, that's not a problem; Would that also be applicable to f-fˑ and ʃ-ʃˑ?

I used ˑ for long and ː for overlong, since that's also what I used for Ingrian, which would make cross-language comparison much easier, but I don't mind changing the Estonian equivalents to ː, ːː respectively if you agree on that.

As for using different parameters for stressed elements: Does Estonian have words that have different stressed variants? For instance, Finnish and Ingrian have the word maailma, which can be stressed either as a compound or as one word. If Estonian has such words as well, it would be impossible to note that if we decide to use parameters to indicate stressed elements. But as for using <+> instead of <->, sure, that's an easy fix. Thadh (talk) 15:02, 17 September 2022 (UTC)Reply

Would that also be applicable to f-fˑ and ʃ-ʃˑ?

No, I think it should only apply to stops, and I don't even know if Estonian has any words with "f" or "š" in such a position.

I used ˑ for long and ː for overlong

I think this is fine.

Does Estonian have words that have different stressed variants?

I guess all shorter compound words could technically also be pronounced as one word. Joonas07 (talk) 16:04, 17 September 2022 (UTC)Reply

Alright, I've changed the module accordingly, and added a few more tests to User:Thadh/test. Could you check whether it's correct, maybe add a couple of testcases if you don't see how a feature is tested? Also, if you come up with a better way to mark stress, I'm open to suggestions! Thadh (talk) 17:31, 17 September 2022 (UTC)Reply

Added some notes on your test page. If anything else springs to mind, I'll update there. Joonas07 (talk) 19:02, 17 September 2022 (UTC)Reply

So, Surjection helped me out and switched the modules, but this means that the pages that had IPA pronunciation now need to be fixed by hand. You can see them all at Special:WhatLinksHere/Module:et-IPA/old. Make sure to let me know if anything needs fixing or if you need help with anything! Thadh (talk) 15:46, 30 September 2022 (UTC)Reply

Hi! Sorry for the long wait, September/October is usually really busy for me. I looked at your test cases page and the paper you linked, and the only thing I would change is that even word-final stops should be voiceless /bd̥ɡ̊/, not /ptk/ (IPA^(key): /ˈykskord̥/, should be etc.). I don't really have time to go into this in-depth or fix old pages manually. The Estonian language I find is really under-represented on Wiktionary, so there's probably a lot more to do. If and when I find time for that, I might find many more places for improvement, but until then, the current module is quite OK! Joonas07 (talk) 20:37, 30 September 2022 (UTC)Reply

Alrighty, no rush, the old module isn't going anywhere ;) Take your time, and make sure to approach me when you come around to it. Thadh (talk) 20:50, 30 September 2022 (UTC)Reply

If we are changing the pronunciation template, could we also copy Finnish "fi-pronunciation" and add rhymes and syllabification/hyphenation automatically? And even homophones if that's even possible. Supevan (talk) 07:25, 19 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

Is võtma (“to take”) really partitive/atelic? The usage examples look like they're using the 'accusative' (nominative or genitive) to me: võta kott ja lähme! (instead of kotti), vares võttis leivatüki noka vahele (instead of leivatükki). (The Finnish cognate, ottaa, is fairly often telic). — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 12:25, 29 April 2023 (UTC)Reply

Yes, you are right. I usually just look at what is in Sõnaveeb. It is atelic in its subdefinitions though. Joonas07 (talk) 15:11, 14 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

Tere, just two questions about your changes to "aasta". I understand why you removed aasta- and changed the IPA template, but why did you remove "inh+" and two references? Just curious, because that seemed correct to me. Supevan (talk) 07:29, 19 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

For consistency. Yes, they are correct in principle, but most Estonian entries don't use inh+ or the two removed reference templates. Joonas07 (talk) 17:29, 19 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

Wouldn't it be better to start adding them then :D Inh+ was recently introduced, so I don't think any language is really consistent with it yet, and more references is always a good thing. Supevan (talk) 19:52, 19 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Supevan: That's definitely not true: Many languages are very consistent with its usage or not usage. Finnish and Ingrian are two languages that consistently don't use {{inh+}}, while Slavic languages are a bunch that consistently do use them. Not everyone likes the plus templates. Thadh (talk) 19:54, 19 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

Then the whole thing is just inconsistent, there's no reference point so how would one know whether or not you can use it. I've been using it for Estonian entries I've created. Supevan (talk) 20:00, 19 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Supevan: You discuss it with other editors of the language (such as you do here), and come to a common conclusion. If no conclusion can be drawn (which is an extreme scenario, I would suggest you do decide on something), you can opt for a rule like "the choice of using either template stands with the person who adds it first". Thadh (talk) 20:03, 19 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

Where did you find that this noun is neuter? Stríðsdrengur (talk) 22:45, 19 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

I think it's safe to assume that, as its predecessors as well as its modern Swedish descendant are neuter gender. Joonas07 (talk) 20:12, 20 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

Õigus jah, minule täitsa uudiseks et sellised vormid nagu "riigesse" on üldsegi olemas. Eks ma loen liiga vähe :)

Kõnekeeles on ikkagi ainult "riikidesse" - võiks panna alla mingi märkuse, a la "short plural forms with -e- are uncommon". Strombones (talk) 19:06, 14 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Mhm, nii, nagu on märge pikkade sisseütlevate kohta (st nt pigem "riiki" kui "riigisse"). Joonas07 (talk) 17:35, 15 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

What do you think of this Estonian entry? The etymology doesn't convince me and there's a lot missing from the page, would you like to do something about it? Stríðsdrengur (talk) 17:24, 26 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

Improved the entry. The etymology is correct, but I clarified it a bit. Joonas07 (talk) 18:26, 26 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

thanks Stríðsdrengur (talk) 18:47, 26 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

Hi, I was wondering if you'd like to join our WT:Discord server, it's handy for quick communication :) Thadh (talk) 13:35, 4 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

There's a discord?! Sure I'll join. Joonas07 (talk) 18:12, 5 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hi Joonas, Surjection and I would like to know if the declension pattern of kuritöö is 26 or 26i, thanks for your time :) Stríðsdrengur (talk) 15:47, 5 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

26i, as in the article. (you and Surjection?🤨) Joonas07 (talk) 18:18, 5 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

Eh... It's a long story, it's just that on the Sõnaveeb website it states that the declension is type 26, so I came to talk to you since you are a native Stríðsdrengur (talk) 18:24, 5 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hi - changes like this aren't a good idea, because (1) we lose the proper script handling for Cyrillic, and (2) it links to the wrong section as soon as someone adds a new language above Russian with an etymology 2 section. We use {{senseid}} and {{etymid}} for doing this, which is added to the relevant part of the target page, and you then simply use id= to link to the right place. In this case, I've added {{etymid|ru|but}} to etymology 2 of the Russian section, which is now linked to from the Estonian entry with {{ncog|ru|а|id=but}}. Theknightwho (talk) 14:22, 27 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

Right now CAT:E is flooded with false positives, so you may not be aware that {{et-decl-puri}} and the entries that use it (puri, tari and veli) all have module errors. Chuck Entz (talk) 17:29, 2 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Ok, found the mistake. I set gradation to true, which it is, but the module doesn't support that and I don't know how to code 🙃 Joonas07 (talk) 17:57, 2 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

What do you think of the idea of translating the hymns by Plethon into any traditional language of Europe? -- Apisite (talk) 22:55, 22 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Uuh sure ? Joonas07 (talk) 23:11, 22 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hello Joonas07! I'm a Belarusian editor and I saw you created some entries a few weeks ago, and I'd like you to look at the most recent discussion we had about the language in general, thanks for your time. Наименее Полезное (talk) 17:51, 12 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

Why do you claim {{bor+}} can’t be used for Estonian? Why did you add a rhyme category which does not exist? _{(parla con me)} 19:13, 24 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

Because the convention is that Estonian, and all Finnic languages for that matter, don't use +-templates. What do you mean rhyme categories don't exist? They are created. Joonas07 (talk) 19:16, 24 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

It would make sense to create a rhyme cat if there were at least two different terms that belong to it. But you do you. _{(parla con me)} 19:18, 24 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

There are probably many terms that belong to it, they just aren't created entries yet or haven't been categorised. Joonas07 (talk) 19:21, 24 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

Ma arvan, et me võiksime luua selle sõna jaoks tesauruse, sest sellele sõnale on palju sünonüüme. Auringonlasku (talk) 00:04, 14 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Pmst võib, kuid tasuks mainida, et Sõnaveebi "sünonüümid" ei ole alati sünonüümid, lihtsalt sarnased sõnad, ja kõiki ei tasu lisada. Selle sõna puhul võib lisada, aga vaata sünonüüme SYS-ist pigem. Sünonüümid ütlevad kultuuri kohta palju, eskimotel on tuhat sõna lume kohta, meil on tuhat sõna joodiku kohta :) Joonas07 (talk) 02:29, 15 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Ma vaatan et sa võtsid siit "Descendants" osa ära. Kas sellel on mingi põhjus ka? Minuarust võiksid saksa "Wierland", ladina "Vironia" jne küll siin artikli all mainitud olla. Strombones (talk) 18:01, 21 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Esiteks pole neid artikleid olemaski ja teiseks pole need ju sõnast "Virumaa" laenatud. Äärmisel juhul saaks väita, et on tõlkelaenud või siis sõnast "Viru" (et:Viru + land sks ja et:Viru + -onia lad), aga ausalt öeldes need punased lingid lihtsalt riivasid silma :) Kuigi see sõnaosa "Viru" pmst esinebki ainult "Virumaas" ja ma ütleks, et see sõna on olulisem teistele keeltele etümoloogiliselt kui meile semantiliselt; soomlaste nimetus kogu riigi kohta, "Viro", tuleneb ju ka ainult sellest osast. Joonas07 (talk) 18:11, 21 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Tere Joonas, nägin, et postitasite oma kasutajalehele, et olete vaimsetel põhjustel passiivne ja soovin teile head, loodan, et teiega on kõik korras :p Auringonlasku (talk) 13:13, 13 September 2024 (UTC)Reply