Wiktionary:Grease pit/2018/July

Can someone please add qualifier parameters to this module? A template displaying "diminutive suffix" in quotation marks (via t=) goes against our formatting standards. I just saw a new user change "t=" to "pos=" for this exact reason. It looks correct now, but it's silly that we need a workaround like that. Ultimateria (talk) 16:42, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

@Ultimateria:, that's no work around; that's how |pos= of supposed to be used in those cases. --Victar (talk) 19:06, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

I see. I looked at {{affix}} again and saw that |pos= and |posN= are two different parameters; I only saw the first one before and thought it was a mistake. Thank you. Ultimateria (talk) 21:20, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

But in testing it I've run into a dilemma: as a random example I've picked despacito (forgive me) which is both a diminutive adjective and a diminutive adverb. But |pos2= isn't for a second part of speech... I don't feel like |pos= is the right parameter for this function. Okay, maybe not |q=; I would suggest |gloss= but I see that we're deprecating it in {{der}}, {{l}}, etc in favor of a unified |t=. But there are just some glosses that shouldn't have quotation marks! Ultimateria (talk) 21:34, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

@Ultimateria: What were you trying to achieve with |pos2=? Its actual purpose is providing a part of speech (or other information that should be displayed without quotation marks) that pertains to the second element in the template (in this case, the suffix ito in {{suffix|es|despacio|ito}}). — Eru·tuon 22:11, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

I'm trying to display despacio ("slow; slowly") + -ito (diminutive suffix). No quotation marks around "diminutive suffix". That's my main issue. Then I should use (apparently) |pos2= to avoid the quotation marks that |t2= would create. But there is a different need for a parameter called |pos2=: a second part of speech. If I have |pos=adjective, then I can't also categorize the page as an adverb with |pos2=adverb, even though it belongs in both Category:Spanish adjectives suffixed with -ito and Category:Spanish adverbs suffixed with -ito. I only bring up the example as a case against using |posN= for non-translation glosses. Sorry, I know I've made this confusing. Ultimateria (talk) 23:10, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

@Ultimateria: I see. Well, I think the "suffixed" and "prefixed" categories with specific parts of speech (as opposed to just "words") might not be used very often. They might be most useful to disambiguate between two entirely different senses of a suffix: for instance, -en when it forms a verb (quicken) versus an adjective (wooden). But |idN= can also be used for this purpose (for instance, Category:English words suffixed with -er (action noun) is added using this parameter). — Eru·tuon 01:07, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

I've been doing a lot of work adding vernacular names of plants in various languages (mainly Icelandic) and there are a couple of missing topic cats that could be useful as I'm currently having to use high-level categories such as orders. A few useful ones I can think of would be:

• Category:Pondweed family plants (within Category:Alismatales order plants). Text could be: LANG terms for pondweeds and other plants in the family Potamogetonaceae
• Category:Rush family plants (within Category:Commelinids). Text could be: LANG terms for rushes and other plants in the family Juncaceae
• Category:Club mosses (within Category:Spore plants). Text could be: LANG terms for club mosses and other plants in the family Lycopodiaceae

Is it possible to add these myself (if so, how?) or is somebody else willing to do it barring any objections? Cheers, BigDom 15:33, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

I think @Chuck Entz is the go-to guy for that kind of thing. DCDuring (talk) 18:01, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

First of all, Wikimedia categories are a navigational device: they answer the question "what other pages are there like this one?". A category with only a couple of entries is pretty useless- better to put links in a "See also" section on the member pages. Many of the categories I create based on the requirements of English are useless for most other languages, and should be replaced by higher-level categories in those languages.

As for maximum size: grammatical categories are unavoidably huge, but my personal preference is to split up topical categories that look like they may reach the 200 that fit on one page in at least one language.

I typically use higher-level taxa when there aren't enough pages to justify lower-level taxa, but the parent category is too big in at least one language (generally English, since there are so many English common names in the dictionary). A smaller category might be justified if it's really intuitive or of great interest, as long as there would be more than one or two entries.

I'm skeptical about the pondweed family category: there are only about a hundred species in the Potamogetonaceae, and the vast majority don't have common names. It's not a terribly well-known family, so it wouldn't be that intuitive or of much interest. I'm surprised you were able to come up with as many as you have- are there many more?

I've been able to scrape together enough English entries to (barely) justify creating Category:Rushes and Category:Club mosses- they're fairly intuitive, but I doubt they'll be much use in other languages. Tipping the balance was the fact that I'm not all that fond of Category:Commelinids and Category:Spore plants: the first is rather obscure and the other violates the taxonomy-based organization of the life-forms categories, but the alternative was either overloading higher categories or creating tiny lower categories. Eventually I'd like to create and fill out the lower categories and get rid of those two. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:08, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation and for creating the two new categories. Similar to you, my motivation for wanting categories for rushes and club mosses was that their "parent" categories aren't like others. Having done some of those plants in Icelandic, there are definitely dozens of English vernacular names we don't have yet so we should be able to flesh those new cats out some more. As for the pondweeds, fair enough if you don't think there are enough of them - happy to defer to your judgement on that one. Cheers, BigDom 06:14, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Hey. So I unnecessarily created a new category - Category:Wiktionary archives, and renamed some archive pages, and in doing so I've almost certainly broken something. I planned to fix it now, but I ran out of time and will be away from WT for the next five years anyway. Sorry about that --Harmonicaplayer (talk) 12:04, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Could you identify the pages that you renamed? — SGconlaw (talk) 14:20, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, I came back early. It's fine now. I broke nothing. --Harmonicaplayer (talk) 16:19, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

Based on Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2018/July#Are comparative or superlative forms lemmas?, the consensus seems to be to not have the superlative forms marked as lemmas or adjectives. For this reason, we would need a bot to go over the entries at Category:Spanish adjective superlative forms, find all superlative forms where the definition line involves Template:superlative of, and change the head template from Template:es-adj to Template:es-adj-sup. SURJECTION _{·talk·contr·log·} 18:18, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

It's premature to say there's a consensus: only three people have posted in that thread so far. — Eru·tuon 18:29, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

I agree, albeit the current structure of the categories (where adjective/adverbs comparative and superlative forms are categorized under non-lemma forms) also would hint they are not lemmata. SURJECTION _{·talk·contr·log·} 18:33, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

(Discussion currently going on that BP thread). SURJECTION _{·talk·contr·log·} 18:40, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

@Surjection: It's true that adjective comparative forms and adjective superlative forms are under the corresponding adjective forms category, but comparative adjectives and superlative adjectives categories are under the corresponding adjectives category instead. — Eru·tuon 19:34, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

It does not actually matter whichever category it is: we can convert all of the ones to use es-adj-sup and then change the category that es-adj-sup uses. SURJECTION _{·talk·contr·log·} 20:03, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Good point. I'm all for consistency in template usage. — Eru·tuon 20:19, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

• Support. I just created a new batch of Spanish superlatives. The new template Seems OK to me! --Harmonicaplayer (talk) 09:14, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

I would be happy to help in the conversion if/when consensus is reached, feel free to ping me. - TheDaveRoss 12:14, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

I think there is already consensus to do the actual edit, since whether the superlatives will be categorized as lemmas or not can be changed in the es-adj-sup template later on. SURJECTION _{·talk·contr·log·} 14:48, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

What about diminutives, augmentatives, pejoratives, irregular comparatives and superlatives (e.g. Spanish peor, pésimo)? Matthias Buchmeier (talk) 08:58, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

There was a recent announcement about the plans to graduate the New Filters for Edit Review out of beta for this Wiki. The deployment was stalled to fix the performance issue related to the change. The performance of the new interface has been improved significantly as an outcome of the work by the developers . So, the deployment has been re-scheduled. The deployment is scheduled for this wiki on July 16th 2018.

Please let us know of any other issues or special incompatibility that you may face so that we could make sure they are solved before the feature gets deployed. -- Kaartic (talk) 20:22, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

The layout of the top of the Watchlist is hideous with lots of whitespace on the one hand, and cramped text on the other. Some this may have to do with our efforts to put reminders about votes, smallest discussions at the top of the page. To what email would I send a screenshot? DCDuring (talk) 16:23, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

I could see that the layout of the text shown above the new UI for watchlist is broken. I'm not sure this is an issue with the new filters UI as the text above the UI is well formatted in English Wikipedia which also has the same UI deployed. Maybe you would have to consider tweaking MediaWiki:Watchlist-details? If you're speaking of wasted white-space in places other than above the filters UI, let me know.

Regarding the screen-shot, you could upload it to commons and share a link here. Or you could upload it to phabricator and share a link. If you feel strongly about not sharing the screen shot publicly, let me know and I'll share my email.

--Kaartic (talk) 06:24, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Screenshot. DCDuring (talk) 12:12, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

I suppose editing MediaWiki:Watchlist-details on this wiki would solve this issue. I can't do that myself as I lack the permission to edit the page. Let me know if I could help in any other way. Thanks, Kaartic (talk) 18:31, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

For this wiki I feel like just allowing admins to opt in is enough, rather than adding another layer of voting and policy. Also I wish I had thought to use all of our editors to mine cryptocurrency, so clever. - TheDaveRoss 12:19, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

This is categorizing all pages into English, regardless of |lang=. Ultimateria (talk) 19:07, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Undoing Dan Carrero's most recent edit to the template seems to have fixed it. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 19:33, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

@Erutuon, Metaknowledge, the template is throwing a "Lua error in Module:utilities at line 143". See transaudient. — SGconlaw (talk) 06:39, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

@Sgconlaw: Fixed, I think. Documented the parameters too. — Eru·tuon 08:10, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. — SGconlaw (talk) 08:49, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Is there a script to avoid having to do this manually? @Erutuon? Per utramque cavernam 06:59, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

@Per utramque cavernam: You mean a script to add a translation section (with the translation container templates) in the correct place? It would be convenient, but I haven't made one because I never or rarely add translation sections. — Eru·tuon 04:55, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

@Surjection, would you know how to write one? Per utramque cavernam 17:49, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

It's probably doable, at this point I'm not 100% sure how to make it into a gadget though, but that is probably something that can be figured out. SURJECTION _{·talk·contr·log·} 17:55, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

Does anyone know what this guy is asking about?: Wiktionary:Information desk/2018/July#Can this font be installed on Western Windows without any BSoD? —Stephen ^(Talk) 23:14, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

It oozes technological illiteracy to me, I don't think any version of Windows would have an issue where the system would crash because of installing a font. SURJECTION _{·talk·contr·log·} 23:15, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

In my experience it is sufficient to copy a font file to the Windows fonts directory (typically c:/windows/fonts). I agree that this shouldn't break anything unless the system already has some problem (graphics drivers etc.). And Western editions of Windows already ship with a selection of non-Western-script fonts; this has been the case for many versions. Equinox ◑ 23:21, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

The safer option for installing fonts in my opinion is to right-click the font file in Explorer and click Install, as there may be some registry changes that need to be made as well. SURJECTION _{·talk·contr·log·} 23:24, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Both templates used for similior, miserior and apparently all other Latin adjectives are apparently broken or incorrectly used due to the missing documentation. It should produce "comparative of similis", but similis is invisible despite being mentioned in the template. --Espoo (talk) 19:21, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

You mean {{la-adj-comparative}}, right? It hasn't been touched since @Kc kennylau edited it in 2016. I agree that this information needs to be mentioned somewhere on the page, though. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 21:54, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Although that template itself has not been changed, it actually uses Module:la-headword, which has changed much since 2016. --kc_kennylau (talk) 22:19, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

I was submitting an edit, and I got this error:

<quote>Warning: You're trying to save page with a <ref> tag but no tag! This action has been automatically identified as likely in error. If you believe this edit to be correct, you may click "Save page" again to confirm it. Otherwise, please fix it and then click "Save page". If you received this message in error, please report it at the Wiktionary:Grease pit.</quote>

I used {{reflist}} instead of <references/>. Is that bad? Looks fine to me. Page is vinescent. --NessieVL (talk) 15:12, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Unlike Wikipedia, Wiktionary tends to use plain <references/>. I suppose the filter should could accept {{reflist}} too, though. See WT:QUOTE for how to format quotations, btw. - -sche (discuss) 07:14, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Look how many pages use {{reflist}}, seven pages in the mainspace now. This is a template I do not not know the exact reasoning of, being a non-Wikipedian. See also Wiktionary:Grease pit/2017/November § Parallel universes in regard to reference formatting for another template created by @Sgconlaw that we have been surprised about.

I don’t know what’s bad but I can inform you that

1. <references/> is good.
2. We do not usually use footnotes, we just write things and put the references at the bottom. We add <references/> only according to taste or expectations for example when we think someone will be too stupid to see the references and remove stuff as unsourced like in this diff; I think you understand and appreciate it, too. Our etymology sections can indeed contain information that cannot be found that way anywhere unlike by Wikipedia’s synthesis rule, we can talk about probabilities and apply linguistic methods.
3. It is not correct to put quotes or usage examples into footnotes as you have on vinescent. We use {{quote-book}} and so on for quotations, {{cite-book}} and so on for bottom references, see Category:Citation templates for what you need to know. @NessieVL Fay Freak (talk) 11:45, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

@Fay Freak: I created {{reflist}} solely for use with {{refn}} to enable a separate "Notes" section to be created. This was because there were views that footnotes that do not provide information about the entry proper should not be placed in the "References" section. See moccasin for an example. It is unnecessary to use {{reflist}} in "References" sections; the practice is to use the <references /> tag. — SGconlaw (talk) 11:57, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks @Sgconlaw, it looks fine on moccasin. You should amend the documentations of {{reflist}} and {{refn}} to make it obvious to users that these are, on Wiktionary, only used in cases of unlikely peculiar needs and in conjunction with each other. Fay Freak (talk) 12:14, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I intended to update the documentation pages of the two templates at some stage. The current pages were imported from the English Wikipedia and contain a lot of templates and information not applicable here, so it will take some time for me to go through them. — SGconlaw (talk) 12:16, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

In transcendentia we have {{inflection of|transcends|trānscendēns|nom|n|p|lang=la}}, which is wrong because the first parameter should be transcendens instead of transcends. Can we track the wrong Latin links similar to this one, perhaps in Module:links? --kc_kennylau (talk) 16:01, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

I wish the template {{gl-adj}} were updated so the category for Galician lemmas goes first, rather than the one for Galician adjectives, like in the entry tubular. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 22:05, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

 Done. That's about the only simple thing that can be done to this template, which is a vintage Daniel Carrero pre-Lua rat's-nest. Chuck Entz (talk) 22:23, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

I got as far as Module:auto cat and then didn't know where to look to fix it. Equinox ◑ 17:38, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

@Equinox: To find the module that contains the text, click "Edit category data" on the right sidebar. From there it should be easy to change the text. — Eru·tuon 17:55, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

 Done Equinox ◑ 18:00, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

See Wiktionary:Requests_for_cleanup#Category:English_merisms. DCDuring (talk) 18:36, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

Last June, I posted a quotation from Shakespeare with a template line in red (https://en.wiktionary.orghttps://dictious.com/en/insult#Verb) and an antonym 'truth' (in blue) for 'fiction' (https://en.wiktionary.orghttps://dictious.com/en/fiction#Synonyms) and nothing has since happened to both entries. What should I do to edit/correct them? Thanks. --J. Wiwat (talk) 07:02, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

 Done. In future, a better place to raise queries about specific words is at "Wiktionary:Tea room". "Wikipedia:Grease pit" is for technical questions. — SGconlaw (talk) 07:45, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Trying to edit a protected page, the fonts in the whole "environment" changed to bold. Is this intended or is a bug? --Xoristzatziki (talk) 17:39, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Hi to all. I am currently an administrator on Turkish Wiktionary. I created a helping tool that would speed up the process of creating a new entry for new users (see). The thing is, it uses all the languages within Module:languages, but I couldn't figure out a way to directly get the data from modules into javascript. Therefore I created another data file on javascript consists of arrays holding available languages on Turkish Wiktionary (here). I had some research and found out that some people could manage to do what I need with JSON, and these language modules have "toJSON" function and "javascript-interface" submodules. But from where can I find the help to use them? ~ Z (m) 10:01, 31 July 2018 (UTC) By the way the tool can be seen as an example on this page :tr:Hello World! ~ Z (m) 10:01, 31 July 2018 (UTC)