Utilizador Discussão:Ooswesthoesbes

Olá, Ooswesthoesbes, bem-vindo ao Wikcionário!
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Importante!

Para facilitar a criação de verbetes seguindo as recomendações estabelecidas pela comunidade, leia também a pequena documentação existente em Predefinição:cria-entrada.

Se você é já um editor com conhecimentos do código wiki, tenha em atenção as seguintes recomendações: coloque em outra(s) página(s) uma ligação para qualquer página que você criar, senão ela vai aparecer na lista de verbetes órfãos e algum outro usuário vai ter que corrigir/completar o seu trabalho; coloque saídas para outros verbetes, senão o seu verbete vai aparecer na lista de páginas sem saída e algum outro usuário vai ter que corrigir/completar o seu trabalho; categorize seu verbete, senão ele vai aparecer na lista de verbetes não categorizados e algum outro usuário vai ter que corrigir/completar o seu trabalho; crie as eventuais categorias novas que você usar em seu verbete, senão elas aparecerão na lista de categorias pedidas e algum outro usuário vai ter que corrigir/completar o seu trabalho; neste projeto verbetes com iniciais maiúsculas e minúsculas são entradas à parte; assim, Brasil e brasil têm significados bem diferentes; Esta é a sua página de discussão, na qual pode receber mensagens de outros Usuários. Para deixar uma mensagem a um Usuário deve escrever na página de discussão dele, caso contrário ele não será notificado. No fim da mensagem assine com quatro tiles: ~~~~

• Desejo-lhe uma boa estadia no Wikcionário!

Valdir Jorge ^fala! 11h20min de 30 de novembro de 2008 (UTC)Responder

Thank you :) --Ooswesthoesbes 05h50min de 21 de setembro de 2009 (UTC)Responder

Hi Ooswesthoesbes!

You have already proposed joa for quick deletion, there's no need to put it to a vote as well.

--Valdir Jorge  ^fala!      18h43min de 20 de setembro de 2009 (UTC)Responder

Ah ok :) --Ooswesthoesbes 05h50min de 21 de setembro de 2009 (UTC)Responder

Hello! In this message, I was just asking him to see and fix that template you pointed. It's because Isaac loves to create and develope entries with countries names. Thank you for helping us!! (I'm sorry for my bad english.) --Jesiel_通信 16h05min de 23 de outubro de 2009 (UTC)Responder

Ok, thank you for your translation :) If you guys need any help you can always consult me here or at li.wikt. Your English isn't much worse than mine, so you don't need to worry about that :) --Ooswesthoesbes 16h07min de 23 de outubro de 2009 (UTC)Responder

Thanks so much for the revision, Ooswesthoesbes, that was awsome! I'll keep my eyes open for the next round with the European contries. :-) Thanks once again, -- Isaac Mansur ^Correio 16h22min de 5 de dezembro de 2009 (UTC)Responder

I created one of the two templates and you can complete it with the country names. This is the link: Predefinição:América/li. Just click "editar" and follow the pattern. I will create the other now. Thanks Ooswesthoesbes! :) -- Isaac Mansur ^Correio 18h43min de 5 de dezembro de 2009 (UTC)Responder

This is the other link: Predefinição:Oceania/li. Hugs, -- Isaac Mansur ^Correio 18h49min de 5 de dezembro de 2009 (UTC)Responder

Great job, Ooswesthoesbes! Thank you! :) -- Isaac Mansur ^Correio 18h55min de 5 de dezembro de 2009 (UTC)Responder

I also read all the revision you made in some entries and I thank you for that. I still don't know how to put an observation on Bèlsj telling people about the article before it, but I will discover a way to do it. Everything became easier with your help. Thanks again. :) -- Isaac Mansur ^Correio 19h26min de 5 de dezembro de 2009 (UTC)Responder

Yeah, I've already done them. It is ok, just take your time and come when possible. :) Hugs, -- Isaac Mansur ^Correio 17h20min de 7 de dezembro de 2009 (UTC)Responder

Thanks for your great job here and for all your support. You know that I am visiting you sometimes to contribute with portuguese entries. ;) All the best ever, -- Isaac Mansur ^Correio 19h05min de 7 de dezembro de 2009 (UTC)Responder

Hello Ooswesthoesbes! You are now helping us with the Limburgish language. There is a thing I want to ask you: Do the Limburgish words has gender like Dutch words? And, if you want, you can also add the plural of a word using the Predefinição:p this way --> '''bola''' {{p|bolas}}. Thank you. --Jesiel_通信 20h07min de 7 de dezembro de 2009 (UTC)Responder

Yes. We have all three genders. Limburgish nouns have a little bit more declensions than the Dutch nouns have. At li.wikt we have a nice table for it, which you can see: here, so I can add plurals, but it would be best to create a declension template for nouns. --Ooswesthoesbes 20h13min de 7 de dezembro de 2009 (UTC)Responder

Hi Ooswesthoesbes! You changed the word pt:solfer in pt.wikitionary telling his word is not Limburgish. However in li.wikipedia you can find it in here. Are you sure, your're right? :-) EusBarbosa - "Por um Wikcionário LIVRE!" 14h23min de 13 de dezembro de 2009 (UTC)Responder

I'm as sure I'm right as Limburgish is my native language. I'll simply cite something I've already said before: «Li.wikipedia.org is a difficult situation. Instead of using the standardised orthography, they've decided to use different dialects of the 500 that exist, so the wiki is sort of a mess. Many page names are in Dutch (like "goud"), many IP-addresses contribute in non-existing dialects and every page has about ten redirects redirecting to it because of the dialectal variation. Of course this results in numerous endless discussions at categories and other structure pages like here, here, here etc, mostly this results in moving the page to a Dutch name. That's the reason why I've decided to only use the standardised orthography here<at li.wikt>».

With other words: it's a Dutch word used at li.wikipedia to make a stop to another discussion. If you take a look at the page "solfer" at li.wikipedia you'll see this: «Solfer (ouch wel z(j)wa(e)vel)...» This z(j)wa(e)vel-part shows the only correct ways to pronounce the Limburgish word. Written with the standardisation it's: zwaevel. --Ooswesthoesbes 15h59min de 13 de dezembro de 2009 (UTC)Responder

Hi Ooswesthoesbes!

I understand that you guys have a huge linguistic mess in your country and from the discussions you mention you can't come to a good conclusion among yourselves.

Now, it seems to me that if we accept your point of view on what is good Limburgish and what is not, we would only be privileging one of the dialects in detriment of all others.

I'm afraid that in the future another Limburgish person, from another dialect different from yours could come here and say that all this is wrong and want to change it all again. What would we be supposed to do in such a situation?

For me, our project must have a North, a guiding principle, and for me this guiding principle must be a good dictionary or encyclopedia of the language. If there's no "independet" source, then wikipedia should be our source.

Now, you say that the Limburgish wikipedia is a mess because it contains all the dialects in it, but is their another source where we can verify your statements?

Please don't take this personally, but as a project, we cannot rely solely on your word as a native speaker of the language. Of course this gives you credibility, but you said it yourself that there are 500 dialects in your language, so if we base everything solely on your word, we would be disregarding all others, which is not acceptable.

--Valdir Jorge  ^fala!
Liberdade sim, anarquia não! 02h11min de 14 de dezembro de 2009 (UTC)Responder

I understand your concerns, but let's make some things clear. First: I'm putting the pages in a standardisation, not in one of the 500 dialects. Actually I'm putting a page on one dialect in a page on all dialects.

The problem you say, someone from another dialect, could easily be solved by working with infolabels, f.e. putting (Maastrichts) or something like that before the definition, or even better: create a separate section for dialectual variation. If pages don't include any dialect label, it's a mess.

I hope this makes it all a little bit easier :) --Ooswesthoesbes 06h12min de 14 de dezembro de 2009 (UTC)Responder

You wrote: "I'm putting the pages in a standardisation, not in one of the 500 dialects."

My comment: so are you saying that there is a standardisation for your language? Something that is above all the 500 dialects? Something that all speakers of the language see as the one language that they want to push for foreigners? If that is so, why don't they use that in li.wiki?

Let's make the following mental experiment: imagine that all users of li.wiki had the same interest in our own little project as you do. They would all come here and start contributing to our project. Would they agree with what you're doing? Or would they start the linguistic war that we see in the Limburgish wikipedia/wiktionary? If they would agree with you, why don't they do it in their own project?

Sorry for being such a pain...

--Valdir Jorge  ^fala!
Liberdade sim, anarquia não! 10h39min de 14 de dezembro de 2009 (UTC)Responder

Yes, there is a standardisation which is above all the 500 dialects. I can't really give a comment to «Something that all speakers of the language see as the one language that they want to push for foreigners?» because Limburgish people still tend to speak about their language as a "dialect", if you understand what I mean.

At li.wiki they've chosen not to use the standardisation for the following two reasons. Reason one, the biggest reason: Limburgish has two definitions. Definition one is the simple one and the one used at li.wiki: all languages spoken in the Dutch and Belgian provinces Limburg. Troubles of this definition: does not include linguistically Limburgish dialects spoken in other regions of those two countries and Germany. Definition two: all languages spoken in or near Limburg with at least all the following characteristics: tonality, a functioning case system, "soft g", ich and doe, diminutive on -kV(n), make, "t-deletion", sj- for old *sk-, use of umlauts and pronouncing -d as -d. This definition is the linguistic and not the politic definition of Limburgish and it excludes dialects spoken in the north, south and west of the provinces Limburg, while it includes the dialects spoken in Cranendonck and the Selfkant. Li.wiki has chosen for the first definition, because it includes more dialects (so obviously, more speakers) and because this is the definition used by the Dutch government, so it's a highly politically loaded definition. Reason two: the largest Limburgish dialect, Maastrichts, spoken by about 250.000 people which make up about 1/8th of the entire number of Limburgish speakers and is the most taught dialect, has it's own orthography. Because Maastrichts is one of the dialects with the most external influences of Limburgish, it doesn't quite fit in the standardised orthography and so many people of Maastricht refuse to write in it. 4 out of 5 admins at li.wiki is from Maastricht, so it's clear that they don't like the idea of putting all pages in the standardisation.

I've also done some research on the use of the word solfer in Limburgish: it's only used in the towns Maastricht, Valkenburg en Venlo (the last one being in a linguistically not-Limburgish area), so it does exist, but it's a quite recent loanword which is only used in a few places. --Ooswesthoesbes 17h47min de 14 de dezembro de 2009 (UTC)Responder

For my part I'm satisfied with your explanation. Thank you for taking the time and explaining it to me with so much detail. And sorry for putting you through this, but I really needed to know.

One final question: is there a source for this standardisation? Some web site where we can double check the information? If someone asks why we did the Limburgish in this way, I don't want to have to say "because Ooswesthoesbes said so"...

Non-important side note: interesting that you mentioned Venlo, for I'm planning to visit that city in 2012. There is a World Fair planned for that city, my wife and I will be visiting the Netherlands.

--Valdir Jorge  ^fala!
Liberdade sim, anarquia não! 18h10min de 14 de dezembro de 2009 (UTC)Responder

No, I don't know any websites, but I've got some papers about it. Most of them being dictionaries where I can give you the ISBN-number of, but I'm afraid you can't get them outside of this region.

Venlo is a big city, well, 50.000 inhabitants maybe, so for Limburg it's big :) --Ooswesthoesbes 18h21min de 14 de dezembro de 2009 (UTC)Responder

According to your latest edit, I suppose our Limburgish periodic table is all wrong :(... Malafaya ^disc. 17h48min de 12 de Maio de 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, it's actually fully Dutch, except for a few like zèlver and iezer. At li.wikt we have a full table (updated with "112 - kopèrniesjóm") you might want to use :) --Ooswesthoesbes 07h53min de 13 de Maio de 2010 (UTC)

You know me too well ;). Thanks. Malafaya ^disc. 10h44min de 13 de Maio de 2010 (UTC)

:) If you want me to help you creating the Limburgish articles here, I'd like to do that with much pleasure :) (never knew I could create such bad English sentences :P) --Ooswesthoesbes 12h46min de 13 de Maio de 2010 (UTC)

Sure :) That'd be great! You can follow any of these examples: potasiu, kalin. I see you're doing some corrections too. Don't forget to correct the translation in the Portuguese word page too if you don't mind (I already corrected the "li" translation in Chipre). Thanks a lot, Malafaya ^disc. 09h51min de 14 de Maio de 2010 (UTC)

Ah ok, I'll do that too the next time :) --Ooswesthoesbes 13h46min de 14 de Maio de 2010 (UTC)

Thank you very much for all your work. Malafaya ^disc. 13h58min de 14 de Maio de 2010 (UTC)

No problem :) --Ooswesthoesbes 13h59min de 14 de Maio de 2010 (UTC)

Could you please update li:Sjabloon:lim-mendelevstaofel with Nh through Og? My guess (probably wrong) would be nihonjóm, fleerovjóm, móskóvjóm, livèrmorjóm, tenèsjóm, óganésón. Urhixidur (Discussão) 16h00min de 26 de agosto de 2019 (UTC)Responder

Hi Ooswesthoesbes!

On May 22nd, 2010, you moved Jupitter to jupitter with the explanation "not capitalised". I find it really hard to believe that the name of a planet, a proper noun, would be written in all lowercase. Would you care to comment on that? And show references that would prove that? The only reference I have is the Limburgish Wikipedia, which shows the name written with J instead of j, as it would be expected.

--Valdir Jorge  ^fala!
09h41min de 26 de setembro de 2011 (UTC)Responder

Well, li.wiki uses another spelling than li.wikt. The Wikipedia spelling is based on Dutch, so yes, then it's capitalized. The Wiktionary spelling is based on Limburgish itself and it is not capitalized, for two reasons:

1. "maon" (Moon), "aerd" (Earth), "zón" (Sun) are not capitalized as well.
2. in order to discriminate between "Jupitter" (the Roman God) and "jupitter" (the planet).

So, in short: in the Maastrichtian dialect it's Jupiter, in the High Limburgish variants it's jupitter for the planet and Jupitter for the Roman God :) --Ooswesthoesbes (Discussão) 18h39min de 26 de setembro de 2011 (UTC)Responder

Un-freaking-believable! How do you guys keep all this straight in your heads? ;-)

Anyway, from what you say, we do need a full entry for Jupitter (for the Roman god), not just a redirection. Is that right?

--Valdir Jorge  ^fala!
19h15min de 26 de setembro de 2011 (UTC)Responder

Yes, if you want to be complete, you should add the Roman God and the planet at Jupiter (with the label Maastrichtian dialect), the Roman God at Jupitter (with no label) and the planet at jupitter (with no label). And you're right that the spelling isn't the easiest one there is, but it's still not as bad as English ;) --Ooswesthoesbes (Discussão) 06h40min de 27 de setembro de 2011 (UTC)Responder

Here "* verbos: forma no imperativo." it says that verbs are in the imperative form (in English it's equivalent to the infinitive without "to"). Is that true for Limburgish? Or should it be the infinitive? Malafaya ^disc. 15h03min de 29 de maio de 2012 (UTC)Responder

Ow, I forgot "no" means "in", I though it said: forms not imperative :) I think I fixed it now :) --Ooswesthoesbes (Discussão) 15h10min de 29 de maio de 2012 (UTC)Responder