Wiktionary:Information desk/2025/February

I have no idea of the proper place to make block requests here, but this account could use a block. Thanks. Three Sixty (talk) 02:09, 2 February 2025 (UTC)

Thank you. See Wiktionary:Vandalism in progress. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 02:11, 2 February 2025 (UTC)

Ah, thanks! Three Sixty (talk) 02:12, 2 February 2025 (UTC)

Wiktionary:User scripts seems to have bunch of

* text

links. Do anyone know what happened there? Ca (talk) 10:26, 2 February 2025 (UTC)

@Ca: Looks like that page has not been updated for a while. I wouldn't recommend enabling random user scripts unless you're prepared to fix bugs yourself... but if you find one that's any good, maybe it should be added to Special:Gadgets? Ioaxxere (talk) 05:56, 4 February 2025 (UTC)

It looks like Surjection fixed the issue. Ca (talk) 06:26, 4 February 2025 (UTC)

Is there a how-to guide on how meta pages are organized? By "meta" I mean pages like this one, dedicated to the organization and creation of word entries (which is the main purpose of this site.) I'm new here. When I'm trying to find information I've seen before, I often have to idea how to get back to it and I always forget to bookmark pages.

Some examples:

I know there are "templates" that are used to auto-generate HTML for actual browser display. E.g., on a word page, for a Noun header the top of the source is something like "{en-noun|-}' (lol even that throws me for a loop. When I try to paste the actual "code" here, this text box process it and converts it to something else.) And I know this code is input to some template function, and I remember reading about header templates and some of the parameters that can be passed to it. But I can't find that again.

I also remember when I was trying to find information on how a template processes arguments to create noun inflections for pluralization, I found a big list of English irregular nouns, but I can't find that anymore.

To me it feels like the "meta" part of this site is much larger than I can currently conceive.

TL;DR : is there a page describing the structure of these pages and how to navigate them to find things? Or just a beginners guide to how wiktionary editing/creating pages works?

Thanks!!

- Rob Killeroonie (talk) 20:25, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

These "meta" pages is the Wiktionary namespace appended by the "Wiktionary:" in its page title. There are other namespaces like the "template" namespace. See Wiktionary:Namespace for more info.

You can see a what parameters a template has by going to its page in the template namespace, for example {{en-noun}} would be at Template:en-noun.

The list of irregular nouns is probably Category:English irregular plurals or Category:English miscellaneous irregular plurals.

Help:Contents#Editing can probably help you on how editing/creating pages works. 115.188.138.105 10:45, 6 February 2025 (UTC)

I saw a stylized depiction of this word or initialism (assuming my memory isn't faulty) on a sweatshirt. I don't find it in this wiktionary. Google Translate thinks it's Ukrainian for NIKE but the sweatshirt didn't include the swoosh trademark. Does anyone recognize it? —⁠71.105.243.101 04:55, 10 February 2025 (UTC)

The brand name comes from the Ancient Greek word for victory, which is also the name of a Greek goddess- see Nike. I'm certainly far from fluent in any Cyrillic-script language, but I don't think I've ever seen the soft sign Ь after a vowel. It's usually written after a consonant to indicate its effect on following sounds. Chuck Entz (talk) 05:59, 10 February 2025 (UTC)

Thanks. Maybe it was a Б instead of a Ь but nothing turns up for that, either. —⁠71.105.243.101 21:18, 10 February 2025 (UTC)

Could there have been a crease in the sweatshirt hiding an "Л" ? Perhaps it was a knockoff Nickelback (the Canadian rock band) sweatshirt, where the makers thought it amusing to put the "НИКЕЛЬ" on the front and a "бАК", well,....on the back? It's a massive stretch, I know.. :) DaveyLiverpool (talk) 23:47, 11 February 2025 (UTC)

I wanted to edit the entry pajeet, but there was no edit link. I guess the page is protected because it is an offensive word, but unlike on Wikipedia, there is no announcement of that status on the page itself? JulieKahan (talk) 21:12, 16 February 2025 (UTC)

You can see when and how a page was protected as well as by whom and for whatever reason was placed in the edit summary in the page log. You can edit this entry if you become an autopatrolled user. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:36, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

What do I need to do to become an autopatrolled user? JulieKahan (talk) 10:06, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

Typically, an admin will just happen across your edits and propose it at Wiktionary:Whitelist, but there's no reason you can't explicitly ask an admin on a user talk page to nominate you, if you think your edits show a sufficient knowledge of the site's rules and you show good judgement. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 02:16, 18 February 2025 (UTC)

We should add another Middle Chinese pronunciation for 乂 according to 《集韻》「牛蓋切，去泰，疑。」 JoeyChen (talk) 07:14, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

@Wyang — JoeyChen (talk) 17:37, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

@JoeyChen: As I said below, Wyang is inactive so you're very unlikely to get a response. — Eru·tuon 18:08, 21 February 2025 (UTC)

We should add other two Middle Chinese pronunciations of 咻 according to 《集韻》「吁句切，去遇，曉。」and《集韻》「虛交切，平爻，曉。」JoeyChen (talk) 16:05, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

@Wyang — JoeyChen (talk) 17:38, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

We should add another Middle Chinese pronunciation of 休 according to 《集韻》「火羽切，上噳，曉。」 JoeyChen (talk) 16:26, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

@Wyang — JoeyChen (talk) 17:38, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

There is already a Wikipedia add-in in Word. Why can't there be a Wiktionary one? It would be a nice convenience during work and personal projects to have.LambrosTower (talk) 18:58, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

Erutuon We should add other Middle Chinese pronunciations of 佗 according to 《集韻》「他佐切，去過，透」and《集韻》「余支切，平支，以」JoeyChen (talk) 02:43, 18 February 2025 (UTC)

@Wyang — JoeyChen (talk) 17:39, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

Erutuon We should add another Middle Chinese pronunciation of 佛 according to 《集韻》「薄宓切，入質，幷」JoeyChen (talk) 03:54, 18 February 2025 (UTC)

@Wyang — JoeyChen (talk) 17:39, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

For some reason, Durga was automatically categorized as having both 2 and 3 syllables. Could someone explain why that happened and/or how to remove the incorrect English 3-syllable words category? 2600:8805:905:6C10:74A9:3227:F247:25E8 04:00, 18 February 2025 (UTC)

I'm not sure why but switching the /ɚ/ to /əɹ/ fixes it 2600:8805:905:6C10:F539:9C94:214B:D273 19:23, 18 February 2025 (UTC)

Erutuon We should add other Middle Chinese pronunciations of 佔 according to 《集韻》「陟陷切，去陷，知」and《集韻》「處占切，平鹽，昌」JoeyChen (talk) 11:50, 18 February 2025 (UTC)

@Wyang — JoeyChen (talk) 17:39, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

Erutuon We should add another Middle Chinese pronunciation of 伯 according to 《洪武正韻》「必駕切，去禡」JoeyChen (talk) 15:05, 18 February 2025 (UTC)

@Wyang — JoeyChen (talk) 17:40, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

Erutuon We should add other Middle Chinese pronunciations of 余 according to 《集韻》「羊茹切，去御，以」, 《集韻》「詳余切，平魚，邪」, and 《集韻》「同都切，平模，定」JoeyChen (talk) 16:12, 18 February 2025 (UTC)

@Wyang — JoeyChen (talk) 17:40, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

I was looking at WT:REDIR and it says that you shouldn't create redirects from accentless words to ones with diacritics. But, take the word "Belästigung" - unacceptable use #5 clearly states that creating a redirect for "Belastigung" would be incorrect, but what about "Belaestigung", the spelling one would use when umlauts are not available? It seems to imply that the best course of action would be to create a page with the {{alternative form of}} template, but that doesn't seem quite right since it isn't an alternative form per se. What is the best thing to do? Moire9 (talk) 23:33, 18 February 2025 (UTC)

I think it would be a waste of time but we have the template {{de-umlautless spelling of}}, which is only used with a small number of words, see also Wiktionary_talk:About_German/Archive_1#dafuer, dafuer. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 23:53, 18 February 2025 (UTC)

Erutuon We should add another Middle Chinese pronunciation of 侗 according to 《集韻》「徒弄切，去送，定」JoeyChen (talk) 02:06, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

@Wyang — JoeyChen (talk) 17:40, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

I've looked through the templates and I just can't seem to figure out how to document specific verbs, due their alternate accepted spellings when these alternates fall in both the 1st and 2d conjugation groups.

The entry for γυρίζω doesn't include the alternate spellings:

• active first person present tense: γυρίζω, γυρνάω, γυρνώ
• passive first person present tense: γυρίζομαι, γυρνιέμαι

(I'm using Lexigram as my primary source for inflection validation: https://www.lexigram.gr/)

• The alternate forms of γυρνάω and γυρνώ are mentioned on the page as alternates, but aren't included in the inflection table.
• The alternate for the passive form is not listed anywhere on the page.

What's the "right" way to update this entry?

I'm aware I could manually enter every element into the table for every conjugation...that seems to defeat the purpose of templates though... (I'm assuming it's entirely appropriate to include all conjugations of all the variations...)

Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Some more verbs with multiple variations (these are not synonyms, they are alternate spellings of the same word)

• φτερουγίζω (πτερυγίζω, φτερουγάω, φτερουγώ)
• σφυρίζω (σφυράω, σφυρώ)
• αποδεικνύομαι (αποδείχνομαι)
• παριστάνω (παρασταίνω, παριστώ) & παριστάνομαι (παρασταίνομαι, παρίσταμαι)
• προφταίνω (προφθαίνω, προφθάνω, προφτάνω)
• λυσσάω (λυσσιάζω, λυσσάζω, λυσσώ)
• ταράζω (ταράσσω, ταράττω) & ταράζομαι (ταράσσομαι, ταράττομαι)

Katananers (talk) 02:14, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

Hello @Katananers! Thank you for your questions. A very brief answer, and we can use our Talkpages for details: γυρίζω (gyrízo) with -ίζω and γυρνάω/γυρνώ (gyrnáo/gyrnó) (-άω/-ώ is considered as one) are 2 different forms (not just spellings=different letters forms=different formations, not same pronunciation). Each form has its own page (what a luxury to have plenty of space at wiktionaries!) and is mentioned at 'Alternative forms'. You mentioned lexigram (unfortunately I have only checked sample pages because one needs to pay subscription). I have noted, that it often presents a fusion of 'learned' different forms in its tables: a matter of style and house rules. Some of them, are dated or Katharevousa. Here, we have a table for γυρίζω and a table for γυρνάω/γυρνώ. These 2 are different, but they may share common inflectional.forms e.g. γυρίστηκα (gyrístika). Note, that printed dictionaries do not have ample space and often include variants of verbs at one lemma; like γυρίζω & γυρνώ,-άω @DSMG where each form has a different code of conjugation here. Our main verb.reference is mainly this one with strictly Standard forms plus we take a look at dictionaries for learned and less common inflectional forms. Thank you ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 18:00, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

Thank you, Sarri.

I did read that the "talk page" is best suited for a particular page, but I'm not sure how to create/start a discussion/comment on a page. (Where do I find the how-to?)

I thought this forum would still be appropriate, because it was in regards to more than one word.

I understand that the 2 variations would get different pages (I can see how that would keep the content much easier to read and understand, as well).

What is the best way to document the alternatives between pages - as they are not synonyms - and shouldn't be confused as they have similar meanings and they have identical meanings.

• 1 Should be they only be identified at the top of the page under `=== Alternative Forms ===`? Both active and passive alternates?
• 2 Should they be listed as alternates and in the conjugation table heading?
• 3 Should they be mentioned in the conjugation tables?
• 4 If mentioned in the conjugation tables (even if the inflection isn't included, how do you add present tense, 1st person passive alternates to the table? (Or can your direct me to a resource that explains it? I wasn't able to find it in the template pages...but there's a lot of information there.)
  • 5 for example, I wanted to update παχαίνω, which doesn't have the alternate passive form documented anywhere (παχαίνομαι & παχύνομαι; although now I'm going to look it up in the verbs resource you've just provided)

I definitely use the DSMG resource regularly - but the other resource is new to me. There seems to be more terribly unreliable information available than accurate so I really appreciate this book! Katananers (talk) 22:00, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

M @Katananers _>>our Talk pages<< e.g. you may ask a question for a specific verb at my User talk:Sarri.greek (assuming that here, in this room, people might be interested in more broad issues). _1.2.3 all of them are good. Alternative forms at the top is required (readers of wiktionary are accustomed to look there for forms). Inclusion in conj.tables is good too: placing is up to the editor, also explaining at table.notes or explain more difficult cases at a Usage section. _4, at the moment with have |alt-form= at the 1st.sg.present.active. If the verb has a passive voice in the table, we do not repeat the altform indication. _5 παχαίνω (pachaíno) is a tricky one. {{R:Babiniotis 2002}} dictionary does not give a passive at all for the Standard -αίνω. But the ancient παχύνω, formal, yes it is still used in the passive but hardly in the active. Sorry, I need a lot of time to make a table. I could try in the next days. In the meantime, try editing, and I can make corrections which you can see if a page is at your Watchlist. In most Grammars active and passive conj.sets are detached and studied separately (because active is fairly steady but passive can be very unstable=many variants). For more, check my -νω verb notes (check βαραίνω and -ύνω) & my refs. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 23:10, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

Erutuon We should add another Middle Chinese pronunciation of 佹 according to 《集韻》「俱爲切，平支，見」JoeyChen (talk) 04:07, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

@JoeyChen: Sorry, I know almost nothing about Chinese languages and should not be messing with Middle Chinese pronunciations. How did my name come up as a person to talk to? — Eru·tuon 06:10, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

I thought you were the person since you protected these modules.JoeyChen (talk) 06:17, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

@Erutuon JoeyChen (talk) 06:32, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

Protecting modules just requires seeing how much they are used and how much they are vandalized. You need to talk to someone who edits them. — Eru·tuon 17:28, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

@Erutuon The pronunciations were created by a bot. Who should I turn to then? — JoeyChen (talk) 15:33, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

What bot? Find the bot owner, who should be listed on the bot's page. — Eru·tuon 17:34, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

Sorry, the bot was owned by a user who is now inactive. User:Justinrleung might be able to help. 🤷🏻‍♂️ — Eru·tuon 17:36, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

@JoeyChen, Erutuon: We do not add Middle Chinese pronunciations based on Jiyun at the moment, as Jiyun is a very "liberal" work compared to Guangyun. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 17:39, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

Hi, sorry if this question is out of place. Anyway, I like the idea of a collaboratively created dictionary but I'm wondering how you determine the correctness of the information posted here. Some of the information clearly contradicts a huge number of sources. 5.172.255.245 23:35, 21 February 2025 (UTC)

When it comes to definitions and such, WT:CFI and WT:RFV are the most important. When it comes to various other information, it depends, especially etymology, where we have numerous discussions such as at WT:Tea room or WT:ES. Vininn126 (talk) 23:39, 21 February 2025 (UTC)

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Dichopatric: Pertaining to populations or species having geographic ranges separated to the extent that individuals from the two populations never meet and gene flow is not possible; macrodichopatric; dichopatry; cf. allopatric, parapatric, sympatric. Etymology: Greek dickho-, apart, in two + patra, fatherland. 2407:7000:8200:2400:A9E2:32E3:7E08:9932 23:46, 28 February 2025 (UTC)