User talk:AleksiB 1945

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Enjoy your stay at Wiktionary! --Apisite (talk) 09:51, 22 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

Apisite, Thanks! ive been editing wiki for quite some time now AleksiB 1945 (talk) 09:54, 22 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

GoateeBoi (talk • contribs) has an interest in adding Malayalam words. Do you have that interest also? --Apisite (talk) 09:52, 22 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Apisite, I can add Mal words if you want but what kinds of words specifically? AleksiB 1945 (talk) 09:56, 22 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

At least words like സഭ (as in സര്‍വശക്തനായ ദൈവത്തിന്‍റെ സഭ, or The Church of Almighty God), or any words you deem necessary to add. --Apisite (talk) 09:59, 22 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

Also, there's Wiktionary:Requested entries (Malayalam). --Apisite (talk) 10:42, 22 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

Add the requested entries for Malayalam to your watchlist. --Apisite (talk) 11:12, 22 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

I've noticed a few problems in some entries you've created...For one, you defined വഞ്ചിക്കുക as "to cheat", but the entry says it's a noun. Surely it's a verb, right? Also, Wiktionary entry titles are case sensitive and pretty much all nonproper nouns should have a lowercase initial letter. Finally, you created an entry recently which you defined as meaning "enough", but again you entered it as a noun. "Enough" is not a noun except in a rare sense which I doubt you meant, so that entry needs to be fixed too. User: The Ice Mage ^{talk to meh} 22:06, 22 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

You're still making the same mistakes as in the past. You need to be more careful with spelling words in definitions correctly, capitalising words when appropriate, and putting the correct part of speech. For example, you defined കൊച്ചു as an adjective, but you have called it a noun. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 22:44, 3 September 2021 (UTC)Reply

Please don't mass-create Sanskrit entries. They are messed up and have incorrect formatting. Thanks for understanding. —Svārtava² • 05:02, 3 September 2021 (UTC)Reply

Hi, the claim , "In Malayalam, words can only end with and " is not true. I think you missed some words. It just never occur as the first letter of any Malayalam word.

By the way, I am also a Malayalam native speaker. Nice to meet you! Vis M (talk) 19:58, 11 September 2021 (UTC)Reply

You're making POS-related mistakes again...you say this is a noun, but the definition, "obsolete", is an adjective or, perhaps more rarely, a verb. So, which is it? 37.110.218.43 13:48, 22 February 2022 (UTC)Reply

Seems to be fixed now :) Prahlad balaji (talk) 18:08, 22 February 2022 (UTC)Reply

Would you like this new fairy tale translated into Malayalam? --Apisite (talk) 11:55, 29 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

Translate it to wiktionary? AleksiB 1945 (talk) 14:13, 29 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

If you would like to help translate it, then it says on the website: For any issues concerning cooperation or usage of materials from this site, write to [email protected] --Apisite (talk) 14:22, 29 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

I created the bare minimum to get this working, but that's all I can do without learning Tamil. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:23, 3 April 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Chuck Entz I'm working on it. Prahlad balaji (talk) 19:08, 14 April 2022 (UTC)Reply

This entry had two parts of speech, proper noun and (probably mistakenly) noun— I've changed the latter to adjective. Please verify the change. Thanks. ·~ dictátor·mundꟾ 22:18, 4 April 2022 (UTC)Reply

Hi, is ലളിതം (laḷitaṁ) a noun or adjective? Prahlad balaji (talk) 16:55, 23 April 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Prahlad balaji yes an adjective it was a typo AleksiB 1945 (talk) 14:15, 25 April 2022 (UTC)Reply

OK, thank you! Prahlad balaji (talk) 19:35, 25 April 2022 (UTC)Reply

I noticed that "The 16th letter of the Tamil alphabet, called ஜ (ja). Represents voiced postalveolar affricate: . Transliterated as j." was changed to just "The fourth consonant in Tamil." As I added in hidden text, I only found sources that contradicts this. However, I literally started learning Tamil 9 days ago and am thus unsure how to correct the page or if the page needs correction. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 09:30, 5 May 2022 (UTC)Reply

@AleksiB 1945:@DerekWinters:@Emmanuel Asbon:@Goldenbrook:@Hk5183:@Info-farmer:@NeṭuMāran:@Prahlad balaji:@Zovlon:@エリック・キィ:Calling for attention to this. By the way, ஞ is currently listed as the fifth consonant, ட the sixth, ண the seventh, and த the eighth. What I have found contradicts this but I would like to ask for verification of my sources found on ஜ's hidden text. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 09:51, 5 May 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Fredrick Campbell Hi. Most Brahmic scripts list consonants by the way they are pronounced, from frontmost to backmost in your mouth. E.g. 'க (ka)' (frontmost) to 'ஹ (ha)' (backmost). As 'ஜ (ja)' is near the front of the mouth, it would be at the beginning of the alphabet; therefore, the assertion that it is in 4th position would be technically correct.

However, since 'ஜ (ja)' is mostly only ever used in loanwords, it is usually placed at the end of the alphabet with other consonants like 'ஹ (ha)', 'ஷ (ṣa)', 'ஶ (śa)', 'ஸ (sa)', etc. in contrast to the letters that are used in native words. Prahlad balaji (talk) 13:18, 5 May 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Fredrick Campbell Hi, I've only ever seen this type of placement in online sources alone. Maybe it is like that to keep it identical with other Indic scripts for quick learning, since speakers of other Indian languages are more familiar with that style of arrangement. But, to this day, the way it's taught in schools and strictly practiced by Tamil speakers looks like this,

உயிரெழுத்துக்கள் (uyireḻuttukkaḷ, “vowels or soul letters”): அ, ஆ, இ, ஈ, உ, ஊ, எ, ஏ, ஐ, ஒ, ஓ, ஐ (a, ā, i, ī, u, ū, e, ē, ai, o, ō, ai)

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ஆய்த எழுத்து (āyta eḻuttu): ஃ (this is a special letter which in Old/Middle Tamil was used inbetween short vowels and hard consonants, but in modern Tamil, it is used as a prefix combined with specific consonants to make, f(ஃப), z(ஃஜ), kh(ஃக) sounds. On its own, it sounds like 'ugh' or 'ah')

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மெய்யெழுத்துக்கள் (meyyeḻuttukkaḷ, “consonants or body letters”): க், ங், ச், ஞ், ட், ண், த், ந், ப், ம், ய், ர், ல், வ், ழ், ள், ற், ன் (k, ṅ, c, ñ, ṭ, ṇ, t, n, p, m, y, r, l, v, ḻ, ḷ, ṟ, ṉ)

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உயிர்மெய் எழுத்துக்கள் (uyirmey eḻuttukkaḷ, “alphasyllabic letters or living letters”) க, ங, ச, ஞ, ட, ண, த, ந, ப, ம, ய, ர, ல, வ, ழ, ள, ற, ன (ka, ṅa, ca, ña, ṭa, ṇa, ta, na, pa, ma, ya, ra, la, va, ḻa, ḷa, ṟa, ṉa)

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வடமொழி எழுத்துக்கள் (vaṭamoḻi eḻuttukkaḷ, “letters from the northern tongue”): ஷ, ஶ, ஸ, ஜ, ஹ, க்ஷ (ṣa, śa, sa, ja, ha, kṣa) (native Tamil words do not need these letters, and since all these letters are a later addition, they're always placed in a seperate category.)

--

Unlike other indic scripts, Tamil consonants doesn't inherently have the 'a' vowel sound in them. This is how letters are categorised in Tamil and this is how it's taught in every institution that teaches Tamil. And this is how I was taught in my school. Also, if someone asks a Tamil person how many letters are there in Tamil, their reply would be 247 (that is with all the vowels, consonants and the alphasyllabic letters including and excluding the northern letters) and some people don't even know what northern letters are, that is because people simply replace these sounds with the closest native sounds, ex: ச replaces ஷ ஶ ஸ ஜ and க replaces ஹ. I hope this clarifies your doubt regarding the placement of ஜ. Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 14:50, 5 May 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Prahlad balaji:@Emmanuel Asbon: Thank you. I'm not too sure how to edit it so that it reflects the reality more accurately, but I'm considering. "One of the letters in the வடமொழி எழுத்துக்கள் (vaṭamoḻi eḻuttukkaḷ, “letters from the northern tongue”)." If this is fine, I would start to edit some of the letters in the series over the next few days. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 03:57, 6 May 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Fredrick Campbell fine with me. Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 04:13, 6 May 2022 (UTC)Reply

Sure! I think that would be a great idea, as long as you give a little explanation to people not familiar to it. Prahlad balaji (talk) 17:23, 6 May 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Prahlad balaji:@Emmanuel Asbon: I'm considering changing "letters" to "Tamil consonants" as that is how Wikipedia's page on Tamil Script and suganthinadar.wordpress.com phrases it. I plan on doing but I may take some time. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 10:35, 8 May 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Fredrick Campbell I think that would be fine, as long as you don't do the aytam and vowels. Prahlad balaji (talk) 16:54, 8 May 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Fredrick Campbell hi, that's fine. I simply translated what it meant. You can change it to make it more relevant for English. Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 13:58, 9 May 2022 (UTC)Reply

Hi. Actually, I am not sure how to handle suffixes for Malayalam. While definitions in entries for -ക്കുക and -അം are correct, I don't know what should be the proper representation of the suffix. -ഉക is a more accurate suffix for present tense of verb (as in ചാടുക, പാടുക, etc.)

As there are several important suffixes and they play a vital role in Malayalam grammar, I think we should represent them in a standard format. I will check about it and inform you. Thank you. Vis M (talk) 04:25, 10 May 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Vis M, should it be listed under alternative forms? there is also -വുക alternating with -കുക like in പോകുക~പോവുക AleksiB 1945 (talk) 08:58, 10 May 2022 (UTC)Reply

Yes. Also, this happens because the letter "ക" gets replaced by "വ" and sometime "മ" in certain Malayalam words when it occurs at the middle or end. e.g., ചുവപ്പ് - ചുകപ്പ് - ചുമപ്പ്; കൂകൽ - കൂവൽ, etc Vis M (talk) 20:10, 10 May 2022 (UTC)Reply

Hi, see "Wiktionary:Redirections" for acceptable uses of redirects. Unlike Wikipedia, Wiktionary do not use redirects for synonyms, misspellings or root forms of lemmas. e.g., മേഘ should not be redirected to മേഘം. For other policies and guidelines, you can check out "Category:Wiktionary policies". Thank you. Vis M (talk) 06:37, 22 May 2022 (UTC)Reply

Regarding this, the endings are correct, but I am not sure how to proceed with them. I think we have to look more deeply about it and find what the standard form for representing Malayalam adjective formation is. See also the participial adjective of English. Thanks. Vis M (talk) 14:16, 24 May 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Vis_M, where can you check words and suffixes? and in how do search the word? and there are some suffixes for which i am not sure of the meaning like -വ്‌ as in pithaavu raajaavu and nilaavu, i once heard its epenthesis but if it was it wouldnt be in multiple words in a uniform way right, another version of -പ്പ് like in thanuppu? AleksiB 1945 (talk) 15:27, 6 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

Please stop hastily creating Sanskrit entries without checking. There are multiple good sources so please do your research and don't feel the need to guess. Best -- Prahlad balaji (talk) 16:39, 26 May 2022 (UTC)Reply

Regarding അച്ചായൻ, check out w:ml:അച്ചായൻ article on Malayalam Wikipedia. It is used to refer to Syrian Christian men of Kerala. Same with ഇച്ചായൻ (ml:ഇച്ചായൻ). Thanks. Vis M (talk) 10:26, 5 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

Hi, the letter ஃ is been in use since the time of Old Tamil, but it was not called aytam then, it was known as mupparpulli meaning 'three dots.' It is mentioned as part of the Tamil alphabet in Tolkappiyam which is the oldest known Tamil grammar book till date. Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 16:01, 10 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Emmanuel Asbon, yea but in modern Tamil its only used to write foreign sounds like ஃப (fa) right? I meant the old Tamil way of using it between a vowel and a consonant like in பஃது (paḥtu) was it used like that in Middle Tamil? AleksiB 1945 (talk) 14:10, 11 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

The old usage is still practiced, not so prevalent you could say. Words like அஃது (aḥtu), இஃது (iḥtu), எஃது (eḥtu) are still used in formal and literary Tamil. Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 11:21, 17 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

Hi, I removed = 't͡ɕː', from ta-IPA module, since it's producing /t͡ɕuːɾijaɡaːn̪d̪i/, instead of /t͡ɕuːɾijaɡaːn̪d̪i/, . Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 11:23, 17 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Emmanuel Asbon, I meant to make ச்ச as because it was showing as before but the code got messed up (iirc even in spoken Tamil ச்ச doesnt become right?) AleksiB 1945 (talk) 11:43, 17 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

Yes, that's correct. ஸ்ஸ produces /s:/ sound and ச்ச produces /t͡ɕː/. Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 13:31, 17 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

@‪AleksiB 1945‬ sorry, my bad. I tagged you in an edit by mistake. Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 20:13, 21 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

Hi, as far as I know, there is no such suffix as கை in Tamil. Even in the words where this letter is present, it is not necessarily a suffix, you can simply assume that it gives a complete form to the word, which would otherwise sound incomplete or dangling.

To give it with an example, take a look at this word: எண்ணு (eṇṇu, “to think, count, recollect”) ⬇️ எண்ணி (eṇṇi), translates to 'think and' or 'count and.' ⬇️ எண்ணிக்கை (eṇṇikkai), translates to 'count, estimation.' Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 08:51, 27 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

FYI, I did search further but I don't find anything convincing because I don't know the languages. Mayrhofer for one does mention a possible influence from Dravidian. I am not sure if that makes for a reliable reference, because he presents the idea as someone else's. He himself prefers contraction from वि- and some verbal root, which was maybe contaminated with Dravidian. That seems possible if the word is not vedic, attested as early as 5th century AD epic poetry.

I can get you a copy of Mayrhofer's entry and another dictionary if you need it. ApisAzuli (talk) 11:02, 19 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Hello. Please do not create hard redirects like the one you placed at chillu. Malayalam does not use the Latin script, and it adds confusion for anyone trying to look up the word chillu as it is used in English. Theknightwho (talk) 23:42, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

Did you intend to redirect ആൺ, which ends in a chillu, to ആണ് (āṇŭ)? I have rearranged the hard redirects and contents so that ആൺ (āṇ) (atomic chillu) and ആൺ (original encoding) lead to the same content, while ആണ് (āṇŭ) is isolated. --RichardW57 (talk) 11:58, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

ആൺ (āṇ) (with chillu) is another version of ആണ് (āṇŭ) (with the epenthetic vowel) and the one ending with ŭ is more common; the original encoding of chillu letters is messed up AleksiB 1945 (talk) 12:02, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

One what? Do you mean form of the word for 'man', 'male'? It looks to me as though one needs cross-links at the level of lemmas (as opposed to spellings). --RichardW57 (talk) 15:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

In both pronunciation and writing ആണ് (āṇŭ) is more common, all words ending with ൺ (ṇ) are now pronounced with the epenthetic vowel "ŭ" to ണ് (ṇŭ) but both ആൺ (āṇ) and ആണ് (āṇŭ) are considered correct AleksiB 1945 (talk) 15:27, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

Importantly, we don’t add hard redirects in situations like this. We should always use soft redirects. Please don’t do this. Theknightwho (talk) 22:23, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

Hi, I recently came accross an issue with 'ta-IPA', it's rendering incorrect pronunciations after you made some changes to it recently. For instance, its rendering /n̪ɐʈɐnɐm/, for நடனம், which is incorrect. The word is never pronounced as n̪ɐʈɐnɐm, it's either /n̪ɐɖɐnɐm/ or /n̪aɖanam/. And another one is /mukɐm/, முகம், which is either muɡɐm or muɡam. Please fix this issue. Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 09:01, 1 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Emmanuel Asbon, voiced plosives are still not phonemic in standard Tamil, it is a feature of colloquial Tamil which is why i made (for eg.) ஆடு render as phonemic /aːʈu/ and phonetic instead of /aːɖu/,

Another issue i noticed was phonetic /ɲt͡ɕ/ displays as instead of like இஞ்சி as /iɲt͡ɕi/, ; i tried to fix it by adding " ='ɲd͡ʑ', ='ɲd͡ʑ'" but its not working AleksiB 1945 (talk) 12:35, 1 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

ஆடு in standard Tamil is still pronounced as /aːɖu/ or /aːɖɯ/, never as /aːʈu/. I think it's better to revert it back to the old form, it's the most accurate and proper rendering of the Tamil script both for standard/colloquial Tamil. Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 14:52, 1 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Emmanuel Asbon, Yes it is pronounced as but phonemically it is /aːʈu/, voiced plosives are allophones of the voiceless plosives as (in native standard) they only occur between vowels (+ some other sonorants) and after nasals whereas its pronounced unvoiced initially and when doubled which is why they are spelt with a single letter like த in ததத்தந்த is pronounced as and but spelt with only 1 letter as their distribution is predictable; real pronunciation is written with brackets and phonemes with slashes /t̪at̪at̪:an̪t̪a/. I reverted the changes by the way AleksiB 1945 (talk) 19:17, 1 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

Yes, you're right, but it's also producing incorrect outputs as a result of that. Just now I tried it on சிரபுஞ்சி (cirapuñci), it's only yielding /t͡ɕiɾɐbuɲd͡ʑi/ (I can manually fix the /b/ to /p/, that isn't the problem, why isn't it yielding /sɪɾəbuɲd͡ʑi/? It's the actual Tamil pronunciation of the word. It just outright neglicts the /s/ sound. Is there a way to rectify that? Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 19:05, 7 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

Before it was rendering சசச்சஞ்ச as sɐsɐɲsɐt͡ɕːɐ I changed to to t͡ɕɐsɐɲd͡ʑɐt͡ɕːɐ better than ɲs atleast but i dont know how to make it as actual sɐsɐɲd͡ʑɐt͡ɕːɐ

maybe @Bhagadatta can help AleksiB 1945 (talk) 13:11, 8 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

I'm sorry to keep bothering you, I'm not really good with modules. Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 19:07, 7 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

@AleksiB 1945 Re: // real pronunciation is written with brackets and phonemes with slashes /t̪at̪at̪:an̪t̪a/ //: In that case, can we use the ISO or IAST notation for the latter? Is there any value using IPA for something that doesn't reflect the pronunciation? -- Sundar (talk) 08:04, 12 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

I have deleted your entry *colay as it only accounts for the Tamil-Kannada branch. Krishnamurthy may mention it as "*col(ay)", but when it comes to reconstructing it, he reconstructs it as *col because it can accomodate all the other descendants. *colay is just the specific derivation from which the Tamil, Kannada and Malayalam terms are descended. Your entry was also a poorly created stub, with only Tamil and Malayalam descendants. I have added all the necessary info to the entry *col. In general, you have been hastily creating a lot of half hearted stubs which only increase the work for other editors. Please slow down and put more effort into your entries. -- 𝓑𝓱𝓪𝓰𝓪𝓭𝓪𝓽𝓽𝓪^{(𝓽𝓪𝓵𝓴)} 02:12, 7 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Bhagadatta The only thing I dont include is all of the descendants as im only familiar with Malayalam and Tamil also other than ml, ta, kn and te its really hard to find words in other Dravidian languages, in I tried to find cognates in the central/south-central languages and then gave up. Then there is the issue of scripts, many dont have a proper orthography or written form like Toda is written with the Tamil script even though it really cant be written with it AleksiB 1945 (talk) 14:49, 7 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

Hi, AleksiB_1945. I wanted to let you know that I created the table you suggested. I tried to find the best images I could to represent the tastes, but they can obviously be changed at any time. I think those objects are a great shorthand for the tastes, but there could be e.g. a more square picture of a watermelon that I was unable to find. If you ever want to make more in the future, I could also show you how just so more people know, but I also wouldn't mind doing it myself either. Thank you again for the suggestion! :) TheTechnician27 (talk) 18:16, 16 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, the images are okay they dont need to be changed AleksiB 1945 (talk) 14:10, 17 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

Your changes result in the heading and the headword languages not matching, which is non-standard. Translingual is “mul”, whereas Malayalam is “ml”. J3133 (talk) 12:09, 24 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

I see your changes have already been reverted by Kwamikagami. J3133 (talk) 08:21, 25 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

Please consult the people that worked on the Proto-Dravidian entries you're moving before you move them. You also can't create headers for languages that don't have language codes, like you did for Reconstruction:Proto-South Dravidian I/karumpu. @AryamanA, Pulimaiyi -- {{victar|talk}} 15:05, 7 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

There are talks on adding the code for Dravidian branches and the word can only be constructed to PSD1 stage ; as for *pinccVr the author too says its likely from a -ncc- and the 2nd vowel varies AleksiB 1945 (talk) 15:12, 7 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

Hi, please wait for the code to be added before creating these reconstructions. I will get around to adding these codes shortly. Also, regarding the earlier conversation we had, it is not just the lack of descendants that makes a reconstruction shoddy; you should scrutinize well whether it deserves an entry or is better left to the etymology section. Be a bit more conservative in your approach to reconstructions; when linguists are not sure of the vowel and simply place a V in place of a vowel, it is best not to add entries for them or even if they are added, it is courteous to sort the descendants form-wise instead of just dumping them all together. I will be adding the codes, I just need more input on whether it is PD -> PSD -> PSD I & II or PD -> PSD & PSCD (Proto South-Central Dravidian). Kindly wait till then. -- 𝘗𝘶𝘭𝘪𝘮𝘢𝘪𝘺𝘪^{(𝘵𝘢𝘭𝘬)} 15:24, 7 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Pulimaiyi: Please see my concerns with the first schema below. Also note that North Dravidian is disputed. Another question that should be asked as well is, are the Dravidian subbranches distinct enough that their reconstructions aren't just going to be the same as Proto-Dravidian? If the differences are minor, perhaps labels would be better, like used in Germanic, ex. Reconstruction:Proto-West Germanic/lagu. --{{victar|talk}} 07:30, 12 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

• On Discord, I asked Sundar (talk • contribs), who specializes in Dravidian, about this and he procured the following information:

"There are two separate naming schemes (see Krishnamurti 2003, p. 21). In the first, PSDr > PSDr I and PSDr II, and in the second (an unnamed source language) > PSDr and PSCDr.
However, PSDr almost exclusively refers to the latest common ancestor of Tamil-Kannada and Tulu in any conversation I’ve had with Dravidianists..."

I'd like to know your input on this before a code is added. Also inviting @Kutchkutch. -- 𝘗𝘶𝘭𝘪𝘮𝘢𝘪𝘺𝘪^{(𝘵𝘢𝘭𝘬)} 04:46, 9 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

There are many terms reconstructable at the common ancestor of Tamil-Tulu & Telugu-Kui stage so it would be better to have a name for it and there isnt a common name for the ancestor likely because until the 70s SCD was grouped inside CD so it was just a North-Central-South division before with Tamil-Tulu as South for a long time AleksiB 1945 (talk) 12:49, 9 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Pulimaiyi: Thanks for the invitation and procuring the clarification regarding the two naming schemes. AleksiB_1945's example entries have used the roman numerals naming scheme. PSDr almost exclusively refers to the latest common ancestor of Tamil-Kannada and Tulu and AleksiB_1945's response above suggests that (an unnamed source language) > PSDr and PSCDr should be the naming scheme. This naming scheme has the advantage of avoiding ambiguous roman numerals. However, the difficulty is what to call the unnamed source language. Proto-Unified-Southern-Dravidian? Should the naming scheme for the codes be dra-nor-pro, dra-cen-pro, etc?

@AleksiB_1945 Thanks for the reconstructed example entries. However, creat headers for languages that don't have language codes is one of the reasons I suggested placing the example entries in the user namespace at Category_talk:Proto-Dravidian_language#Old_Telugu_&_Old_Malayalam rather than the reconstruction namespace until the language codes are created. Kutchkutch (talk) 03:42, 10 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

I was actually talking about PSD > PSD I, PSD II as PSD is already used for Tamil-Telugu, wouldnt it be better to use it and instead of PSD I, PSD II we could use PSD 1, PSD 2 AleksiB 1945 (talk) 14:22, 10 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

@AleksiB_1945 Thanks for the clarification regarding your position. It appears I misunderstood your response. So you support the PSD > PSD I, PSD II naming scheme because it allows for there to be a named common ancestor for PSD I, PSD II, which is not present in the (an unnamed source language) > PSDr and PSCDr naming scheme. {{R:dra:DL}} does use the PSD > PSD I, PSD II naming scheme more frequently. Kutchkutch (talk) 22:46, 10 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

• I'm really only interested in Dravidian terms borrowed into Sanskrit, but on the entries I did create, I used the Ethnologue tree, which separates the two southern branches into South-Central Dravidian and Southern Dravidian. With the grouping of the Dravidian sub-branches being disputed, it seems the safest best. --{{victar|talk}} 20:02, 10 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

  PSD > PSD I, PSD II is used too like glottolog uses PSD > PSD I, PSD II AleksiB 1945 (talk) 15:06, 11 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

  Yes, I'm aware of the Glottolog tree, but also keep in mind that there genetic groupings, and then there are non-genetic areal groupings, like Southeastern Iranian. See Dravidian_languages#Classification. --{{victar|talk}} 07:07, 12 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

• @Pulimaiyi: The South branch gets too big when you include Telugu-Kui too while Central has only 4-5 langs and North 3-4, how about Macro-South > South, South-Central? It is used commonly too now AleksiB 1945 (talk) 11:07, 30 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

• {{R:dra:Southworth}} also mentions many cases where BK reconstructs terms to PD when they are restricted to certain branches like PSD or PCD further saying it should be reconstructed only to the proto branch only AleksiB 1945 (talk) 11:27, 20 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

There are now 6 entries in CAT:E with module errors. First there were ഇരുപത്തൊന്നാം and ഇരുപത്തൊന്ന്, where something changed that made the {{number box}} unable to match the entry names with anything in Module:number list/data/ml, which you just edited. Then came 4 more entries where it was @Vis M who added {{ml-IPA}} to the entries, but you had just been working with the module that's throwing the errors, Module:ml-IPA. I don't really know what happened or how to correct it, but you seem to be the person to figure that out and fix the problems. Please do so. Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 02:39, 10 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

I tried fixing the mod for chillus and its working in pages like ആൽ and ആൽഡോസ്റ്റിറോൺ but not in most other pages fsr AleksiB 1945 (talk) 14:22, 10 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

Hi, Vis M here. The errors for first 2 entries came from a typo on their latest edit. I have fixed it with this edit: .

The other four are from a known bug in {{ml-IPA}} when handling Malayalam "chillaksharam" letters. I think someone with Lua or coding knowledge will be needed for it. Thanks. Vis M (talk) 03:40, 10 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

I always have to manually fix them by substituting the "chillakasharam" with needed IPA characters, like this: to remove the error. Vis M (talk) 04:03, 10 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Vis M: Word-medially, the chillakasharam could be replaced with the non-chillakasharam form plus virama such as at ചർമ്മം and ഗീവർഗീസ്. Kutchkutch (talk) 04:30, 10 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

It can actually become an issue once IPA for "non-chillakasharam form plus virama" becomes fixed. It's pronounced differently. Vis M (talk) 04:34, 10 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

From my perspective, the issue that the vowel_diacritics table is incomplete, but I don't know enough about Malayalam script to fix it properly. Please fix ASAP, thanks! Benwing2 (talk) 22:09, 10 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

The error comes up when the adjoining consonants have the inherent "ɐ" vowel. See Module_talk:ml-IPA#Output_errors Vis M (talk) 16:03, 12 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

This needs to be fixed immediately, either by fixing the module or by adding the workaround IPA. Otherwise, the {{ml-IPA}} template will have to be removed from the entries with module errors. Having templates in entries that display nothing but module errors is a really bad idea, and cluttering up CAT:E makes it hard to spot unrelated errors. At the very least, @Vis M needs to stop adding the template where it throws an error. Chuck Entz (talk) 23:53, 10 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

I have fixed all 12 entries by adding the workaround IPA for now Vis M (talk) 01:18, 11 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

• @Vis M: There are now Malayalam entries in CAT:E with module errors. Kutchkutch (talk) 01:26, 14 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

  Ok, it was added yesterday by me. Sorry about that. Removed now. Thanks. Vis M (talk) 05:31, 14 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

The term Old Oriya should only be used if it can be supported by a reference. If this is not the case for the entries in Category:Kuvi terms derived from Old Oriya, could they be changed to or? Kutchkutch (talk) 01:26, 14 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

There is a listing of historical Oriya numerals (with some minor differences) on page 131 Evolution of Oriya Language and Script, so the etymologies seem plausible. However, the time period analysed in that reference is from 1051 to 1568, which roughly corresponds to Middle Oriya rather than Old Oriya according to Wikipedia. Kutchkutch (talk) 03:59, 14 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

Your edit to Module:mr-IPA has caused extra new lines to appear in transclusions of T:mr-word-final-schwa (see the entries in Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:mr-word-final-schwa). Is there a way to resolve this? Kutchkutch (talk) 01:26, 14 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

You seem to have made many language code/name errors here: Your L2 header says Adiya, the lang code you used for most things is for "Ravula", and you have used {{ml-IPA}} which is for Malayalam... Acolyte of Ice (talk) 13:47, 19 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Acolyte of Ice, Adiya(n), Yerava and Ravula are the same language (according to wiki) and the source uses Adiya as the name. As for IPA, as the script and pronunciation of the letters are the same, im using ml-IPA, also faster than {{IPA|yea|eːʋu} }; making a new IPA template doesnt work like tcy-IPA is still not working. AleksiB 1945 (talk) 14:01, 19 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

I see...well, we need to either start using Ravula as the L2 header for entries or change the template/module systems to use Adiya instead of Ravula. Acolyte of Ice (talk) 14:03, 19 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

Will use Ravula as the L2 headers AleksiB 1945 (talk) 14:09, 19 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

The entries you created recently were not mentioned in Malayalam script in the referenced document. Namely, "പുയ്ജു", "മിയ്ജ", etc. Those words give 0 search hits from google search. Vis M (talk) 16:03, 19 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

Malamuthan is spoken in Malappuram and as they are tribal dialects and the literacy rates among the population is probably like 10-20% there arent any written versions of them but they are attested forms mentioned in the article, i mean no dialectal or colloquial terms are really written like ഓര് ഞമ്മള് ഗ്രീൻ ലെവെൻ are never found in written form apart from maybe in chatting even though these words are used commonly in speech AleksiB 1945 (talk) 16:24, 19 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

Yes, tribal dialects like these have to be added, but we should also be careful while assigning Malayalam letters to words that were only described phonetically in the source. Regards Vis M (talk) 21:53, 19 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

Btw, if you are interested, you can join meta:Wikimedians of Kerala usergroup, as well as attend online events that we have been conducting regularly these days. Malayalam lexemes and its documentation has been a focus topic. Vis M (talk) 22:03, 19 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

In many of your edits that add IPA pronunciation to Dravidian languages, the language of the entry and the language in the category name do not match. Using {{ml-IPA}}, {{ta-IPA}}, {{te-IPA}}, {{kn-IPA}} or {{or-IPA}} instead of {{IPA}} may be faster, but this causes incorrect categorisation if the corresponding template/module system is not designed for the language. Even if the transliteration scheme is mostly the same, it may be better in some cases not to show pronunciation unless there is justification for it rather than hypothesising what it should be. Kutchkutch (talk) 23:44, 19 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Kutchkutch, Changed to {{IPA}}, the only differences in pronunciation tend to be in intervocalic voiceless plosives where i didnt include the template. Can you add their, Koragas, Bellari, Kudiya, Manda and Pengo's transliterations too? AleksiB 1945 (talk) 11:17, 21 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

It's a minor issue but you have been consistently doing this (latest at 𑀯𑀟𑁆𑀠𑀺 (vaḍḍhi) so I thought I should bring this to your attention. In many of your Proto-Dravidian edits, you arbtrarily order the descendants. I have told you this before via an edit summary: the descendants should be ordered alphabetically. This means Tamil comes after Malayalam. Kindly follow this format in the future; thanks. -- 𝘗𝘶𝘭𝘪𝘮𝘢𝘪𝘺𝘪^{(𝘵𝘢𝘭𝘬)} 04:50, 10 July 2023 (UTC)Reply

Hi - page moves like this are not a good idea. There are multiple languages on that page, and we don't just follow whatever governments say the official name is - especially when those governments are only talking about one language (English). This is why we didn't move Kiev to Kyiv or Turkey to Türkiye.

I'm going to move this back, and I suggest that you create a new page at Keralam. I strongly suggest you raise this at WT:RFM as a move request. Theknightwho (talk) 14:12, 30 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Seconding this: DO NOT move spellings to a "main spelling". This is not how page moves work on Wiktionary. Create the main spelling as a new entry and edit the older entry to be an alternative form, when appropriate. Only use page moves for spelling mistakes. — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 14:30, 30 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

> I strongly suggest you raise this at WT:RFM as a move request.

Has been debated on w:Talk:Kerala#Requested_move_12_August_2023 the decision was to not change the name. AleksiB 1945 (talk) 15:10, 30 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

@AleksiB 1945 This is Wiktionary, not Wikipedia. Theknightwho (talk) 16:07, 30 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

but the result of the talk will be the same AleksiB 1945 (talk) 17:42, 30 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

AleksiB_1945, don't add {{d}} to pages with content. If you think a page shouldn't exist, use {{rfd}} or {{rfe}} with corresponding requests. -- Sokkjō 18:11, 31 October 2023 (UTC

Adding an {{rfd}} to a page doesn't mean you should also wipe the page. Read T:rfd/documentation. --{{victar|talk}} 20:50, 2 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Adding links to illegal copies of books and journals is a copyright violation. If you do so again, you will face a block. --{{victar|talk}} 09:06, 11 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Old Tamil with the language code "oty" has been a full language here since at least 2011, so why would you have entries with an Old Tamil header, but everything in the entry using "ta", the language code for modern Tamil? That puts the entries in categories such as Category:Tamil letters and Category:Tamil lemmas, but not in Category:Old Tamil letters or Category:Old Tamil lemmas. More importantly, it also puts them in Category:Tamil entries with incorrect language header. If modern Tamil does use Old Tamil brahmi for modern Tamil, there's no reason not to have separate Tamil and Old Tamil sections, each with their own language codes. The way it's set up now, we're lying to our readers by telling them that an entry for one language is really an entry for another language. Chuck Entz (talk) 06:40, 24 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Chuck Entz all forms of Brahmi are long gone, it was a typo. oty and ta should be kept different there are much differences b/w them AleksiB 1945 (talk) 10:51, 24 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

@AleksiB 1945 1) He only lists it as a possibility.

2) He doesn't reconstruct the term even once. This reconstruction is completely unsourced.

Illustrious Lock (talk) 16:07, 3 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

I am asking you not to create Urdu entries if you are not familiar with it. You used Arabic ه (ههه) for Urdu ہ (ہہہ) on ضمیمه. I had to move the entry to the right page: ضمیمہ RonnieSingh (talk) 17:56, 24 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

I need you to cite a source on this cuneiform. It was added at पिञ्जर by a user who explicitly stated that the cuneiform for this could not be verified, so he was adding it based on his knowledge. It appears as though you went ahead and created the entry nevertheless, likely using that entry itself as a source. As I have said several times before, it is one thing for an entry to mention another term in the etymology without a source; but creating an entry for it requires more stringent standards. We do not have enough editors knowledgeable in Hurrian to verify this.

I can see on your talk page that several users have asked you to stop recklessly creating entries in areas you are not familiar with. It compromises on the quality of this dictionary. If you persist and continue to ignore people's requests to not create entries in languages you do not know, consider this a warning - you may face a block. -- 𝘗𝘶𝘭𝘪𝘮𝘢𝘪𝘺𝘪^{(𝘵𝘢𝘭𝘬)} 05:29, 18 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

DO NOT create new pronunciation modules by copying old ones. This is a bad idea. It leads to a zillion slightly different versions that inevitably get out of sync, and someone else has to clean up the mess. Instead, create a single module that can handle multiple similar languages. If your coding skills aren't up to this, don't create pronunciation modules at all, full stop.

I see also from other comments on this page that you have been a serial abuser of Wiktionary quality standards, and tend not to respond to other people's messages. Since you are active as of today, I'm giving you 3 days to respond to this message and to User:Pulimaiyi's, User:RonnieSingh's and User:Victar's messages above; otherwise I will block you. Benwing2 (talk) 03:15, 30 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Benwing2 I used to add the main language's module to other entries until someone said the mod must be specific to the language and one cant use the mod of other languages. Wont be adding them again.

About Ronnie's comment, this source showed it searches words with both types of h's so i thought both were used; i pinged him while making the entry and he had already fixed the entry by that time i saw his comment. I havent add any Urdu entries after that.

About Pulimaiyi comment, i made the entry from the red link and after his comment i marked the entry for deletion. I have only made sourced entries after that, also adding their sources for the smaller languages. Most of the time i made them as they were the source or had a descendent from the main languages i add.

On Victar's comment, i didnt know that copy was illegal; ive only added sources from JSTOR, archive.org and other sites after that.

About Illustrious comment, i dm'd him about that reconstruction/sources and he had agreed with it. AleksiB 1945 (talk) 07:52, 30 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

@AleksiB 1945 OK, thank you. Please be extremely careful from now on not to add unsourced material or material in languages you don't know, and not to make assumptions of the sort you mentioned above for Urdu h's. Given your history, you will probably be monitored, and if you persist in adding material for languages you don't know, you will likely be blocked. Sorry to be a stickler about this but we do not have enough knowledgeable editors to review and correct sloppiness and mistakes esp. in more obscure languages, meaning if you add garbage, it will likely persist for years. Benwing2 (talk) 08:01, 30 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Benwing2 It is ultimately not @AleksiB 1945's fault that DDSA has Urdu computerised badly. RonnieSingh (talk) 10:37, 30 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

Your entry for नाडिका, which you created less than 2 days ago, exactly copies the DDSA dictionary. This is a copyright violation, so I have deleted the page. Please do not do this again, or you will be blocked. Benwing2 (talk) 22:47, 30 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

How can bare meanings of words have copyrights? AleksiB 1945 (talk) 08:54, 31 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

you can ask User:BD2412 for more details, but the particular wording and arrangement of senses can be copyrighted. In general you can't copy verbatim anything more than a trivial amount of text. Benwing2 (talk) 08:56, 31 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

Agreed. The specific wording of definitions in a dictionary can indeed be subject to copyright. An attributed quote would be permissible, but we should not need to resort to this to write dictionary definitions. bd2412 T 02:10, 1 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

What did you mean to do when you created this entry? Was it meant to be something else and you mistakenly copy-pasted this name? Or did you mean त्र्यम्बक (which does NOT refer to Shiva's bow)? Of course, the entry has to be deleted, but I want to know what you were thinking when you created it. Pinging @Svartava as the one who brought this to my notice.

If you ignore this message, it will not bode well for you. You have committed a lot of errors lately. -- 𝘗𝘶𝘭𝘪𝘮𝘢𝘪𝘺𝘪^{(𝘵𝘢𝘭𝘬)} 𝘗𝘶𝘭𝘪𝘮𝘢𝘪𝘺𝘪^{(𝘵𝘢𝘭𝘬)} 06:43, 17 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

This word ml:w:ത്രയമ്പകം AleksiB 1945 (talk) 09:28, 17 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

The link you subsequently placed on the entry itself presumably refers to:

https://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/scans/csl-apidev/servepdf.php?dict=PUI&page=2-038

which has the transliteration "Trayambaka" but does not have the Devanagari form. Old dictionaries such as this may have inconsistent transliteration schemes. The equivalent of

ത്രയംബകം / ത്രയമ്പകം / त्रयम्बक / त्रयंबक etc.

may be common in Malayalam and other languages since त्र्य is an awkward consonant cluster, but other than a few results on Google Books (perhaps influenced by the simplified spelling in modern languages) it appears to be a misspelling for Devanagari Sanskrit. Kutchkutch (talk) 06:20, 18 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

On this basis, I am deleting the entry. @Kutchkutch, Svartava: The user seems to have no idea what they are doing, if they can change the meaning from "Shiva's bow" to just "Shiva", it's a strong indication that they do not know what it means in the first place. They also created मातृक as a noun rather than as an adjective - even after being warned so many times, they haven't paid any heed to Wiktionary's quality standards. -- 𝘗𝘶𝘭𝘪𝘮𝘢𝘪𝘺𝘪^{(𝘵𝘢𝘭𝘬)} 02:53, 23 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

You created मातृक and mis-classified it as a noun. It would generally be considered a minor error but you have been repeatedly told to be careful about the quality of your edits and you have taken none of it to heart. It seems to me that you lack the knowledge to be creating Sanskrit entries but you create them anyway, just like how you create Hurrian entries. I am blocking you for a week; please be more mindful of the quality of your entries in the future. -- 𝘗𝘶𝘭𝘪𝘮𝘢𝘪𝘺𝘪^{(𝘵𝘢𝘭𝘬)} 03:02, 23 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

• You have learned nothing from your last block and are STILL adding Sanskrit entries en masse and making mistakes while doing so. I am done tolerating this; now every successive offense will result in longer blocks! -- 𝘗𝘶𝘭𝘪𝘮𝘢𝘪𝘺𝘪^{(𝘵𝘢𝘭𝘬)} 12:32, 13 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

If I catch you editing anonymously again, I will extend your block. This is your final warning. -- 𝘗𝘶𝘭𝘪𝘮𝘢𝘪𝘺𝘪^{(𝘵𝘢𝘭𝘬)} 15:03, 23 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

You get a 6 month ban for not heeding my warning. Next stop will be a year. -- 𝘗𝘶𝘭𝘪𝘮𝘢𝘪𝘺𝘪^{(𝘵𝘢𝘭𝘬)} 13:42, 26 September 2024 (UTC)Reply