User talk:Njardarlogar

Hello, and welcome to Wiktionary!

If you have edited Wikipedia, you probably already know some basics, but Wiktionary does have a few conventions of its own. Please take a moment to learn our basics before jumping in.

First, all articles should be in our standard format, even if they are not yet complete. Please take a moment to familiarize yourself with it. You can use one of our pre-defined article templates by typing the name of a non-existent article into the search box and hitting 'Go'. You can link Wikipedia pages, including your user page, using ], {{pedia}}, or {{wikipedia}}.

Notice that article titles are case-sensitive and are not capitalized unless, like proper nouns, they are ordinarily capitalized (Poland or January). Also, take a moment to familiarize yourself with our criteria for inclusion, since Wiktionary is not an encyclopedia. Don't go looking for a Village pump – we have a Beer parlour. Note that while Wikipedia likes redirects, Wiktionary deletes most redirects (especially spelling variations), in favor of short entries. Please do not copy entries here from Wikipedia if they are in wikipedia:Category:Copy to Wiktionary; they are moved by bot, and will appear presently in the Transwiki: namespace.

A further major caveat is that a "Citation" on Wiktionary is synonymous with a "Quotation", we use these primary sources to construct dictionary definitions from evidence of the word being used. "References" (aka "Citations" on Wikipedia) are used predominantly for verifying Etymologies and usage notes, not the definitions themselves. This is partly to avoid copyright violation, and partly to ensure that we don't fall into the trap of adding "list words", or words that while often defined are never used in practice.

Note for experienced Wikipedians:

Wiktionary is run in a very different manner from Wikipedia and you will have a better experience if you do not assume the two are similar in culture. Please remember that despite your experience on Wikipedia, that experience may not always be applicable here. While you do not need to be an expert, or anything close to one, to contribute, please be as respectful of local policies and community practices as you can. Be aware that well-meaning Wikipedians have unfortunately found themselves blocked in the past for perceived disruption due to misunderstandings. To prevent a similar outcome, remember the maxim: be bold, but don't be reckless!

Having said that, we welcome Wikipedians, who have useful skills and experience to offer. The following are a couple of the most jarring differences between our projects that Wikipedians may want to learn up front, so things go smoothly for everyone. Changing policy pages on Wiktionary is very strongly discouraged. If you think something needs changing, please discuss it at the beer parlour, after which we may formally vote on the issue. You should also note that Wiktionary has very different user-space policies, we are here to build a dictionary and your user-page exists only to facilitate that. In particular we have voted to explicitly ban all userboxes with the exception of {{Babel}}; please do not create or use them.

We hope you enjoy editing Wiktionary and being a Wiktionarian. Conrad.Irwin 20:40, 30 May 2008 (UTC)Reply

Please do not put brackets around the variations of Norwegian, they just cause extra work for our format bot. See User:AutoFormat/Languages for the currently permitted list. Conrad.Irwin 20:40, 30 May 2008 (UTC)Reply

If you are working on a new inflection line template for Norwegian Nyorsk verbs, you might look at {{es-verb}} for ideas. It is a very recently written template (so the code is up-to-date) that automatically generates regular endings for Spanish verbs, but still allows irregular forms to be explicitly added. --EncycloPetey 22:03, 7 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

Hi. Thanks for the tip. I already think I am nearing something useful; although the amount of irregularity among the irregular verbs makes alot of variables necessary. All of the following four verbs should be generated from the same template:

leggja (present tense legg ; past tense la/lagde; past participle lagt)

liggja (present tense ligg ; past tense låg; past participle lege/legi)

lyta (present tense lyt ; past tense laut; past participle lote/loti)

vera (present tense er; past tense var; past participle vore/vori)

..and they all differ from each other. --Harald Khan Ճ 22:29, 7 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

Handling ittegular verbs can be done a variety of way. I can't offer meaningful help without knowing what is regular. If you could prepare a list showing what regular verbs do, or point me to a page that does this for the forms to be included in the template, then I might be able to help. --EncycloPetey 16:29, 8 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

I see now that I should have told what exactly I am doing. I have been modifying the template nn-verb. The reason that I started modifying it, was that alternative forms that certain verbs have, had been left out by the template creators. Now that these are in place, this template should be more or less fully functional (I've also asked for comments on Wiktionary talk:About Norwegian, since it is the first template I am editing on wiktionary). Thanks. --Harald Khan Ճ 15:41, 9 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

Hallo, Harald. Siden vi for tiden er svært få som arbeider med norsk her, har vi ennå ikke fått på plass noe standard oppsett for norske ord. (Det ble arbeidet litt med dette på Wiktionary:About Norwegian). Det store spørsmålet er naturligvis om alt skal plasseres under den felles overskriften «Norwegian», eller om vi skal ha to overskrifter «Norwegian Bokmål» og «Norwegian Nynorsk». Det er, slik jeg ser det, fordeler og ulemper med begge løsningene: Med én overskrift sparer vi plass og merarbeid, mens det blir mindre rotete og forvirrende med to overskrifter. Problemet med to overskrifter er imidlertid at ikke alt kan plasseres i kategoriene «bokmål» og «nynorsk». For det første har vi jo riksmål og høgnorsk. Kan det tenkes at noen vil begynne å legge inn overskrifter som «Norwegian Riksmål» og «Norwegian Høgnorsk»? I så fall kan vi potensielt få fire forskjellige seksjoner for ett norsk ord. Det neste problemet er dialektord som av og til kan forekomme i skrift, og som ikke umiddelbart kan karakteriseres hverken som «bokmål» eller «nynorsk». Dertil kommer historiske former (f. eks. kløive, haape, gjente) som vanskelig kan kalles «bokmål» eller «nynorsk», ettersom disse begrepene er forholdsvis nye...

For at arbeidet med norsk skal komme skikkelig i gang, er vi avhengige av å avklare formateringsspørsmålet. Derfor skulle jeg være interessert i hva du mener om dette, altså om vi skal ha én eller flere overskrifter, og hva vi skal gjøre med de vanskelige tilfellene jeg nevnte. Hilsen Kåre-Olav 11:15, 24 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

Hei sann.

På sida «her» lét eg det nett vera ei blanding; ==Norwegian== lot eg representera bokmål og nynorsk sidan me har ei lik tyding på båe språka. Eg oppretta òg ein nynorsk-bolk for tydinga som ikkje finst i bokmål sidan det er snakk om ein annan etymologi og ein annan ordklasse. Høgnorsk/landsmål og riksmål kunne ein jo ha plassert under nynorsk og bokmål respektivt, sidan det er tidlegare former i ubrotne rettskrivingar. Meir dialektale ord har vel òg gjerne ei naturleg tilhøyrsla i ein av dei to målformene; om ikkje kan ein vel plassera dei under ==Norwegian== desse òg, og spesifisera nærare kva slags ord det er.

Nokon lingvist er eg uansett ikkje ;-) --Harald Khan Ճ 14:26, 24 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

Hi, I've done this edit, because it seemed like a nonsense, but perhaps you'll want to do something else with the word (I've no Norwegian so I don't know if it's a real word at all). --Thrissel 22:56, 27 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

Hi, I'm not sure where that translation should be, if anywhere; but at least "på frifot" means "at large", where frifot is a noun that can be used in similar expressions. --Harald Khan Ճ 11:21, 28 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

Ok, I put it to "at large" so it's not lost altogether. Thanks for explaining. --Thrissel 23:15, 28 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

Hei Harald! Du får unnskyld for disse… Jeg prøvde å finne de skikkelige maler, men jeg er en gammel kronidiot med data og slike tinger, og jeg fant ikke dem. Så, hva jeg gjorde istf. de riktige malene skal tydeligvis slettes, tenker jeg òg.

Skulle det være mulig å ha så finne maler som vi under de svenske substantivene? Og så for de andre skandinaviske språkene?

Øøøh… Jeg trenger hjelp også til å få «unified login» opprettet, fordi det er noe i veien. Kunne du hjelpe meg, eller vet du hvem kunne gjøre den?

Takk på forhånd for svaret.

Vennlig hilsen. ৵ Kąġi Oȟąko ^Ƭ 14:34, 30 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

Åh! Mente du {{nn-decl-noun-m1}} and {{nb-decl-noun-m1}}? ৵ Kąġi Oȟąko ^Ƭ 15:13, 30 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

Why? Mglovesfun (talk) 11:48, 2 January 2010 (UTC)Reply

It is not the only word that uses the brackets. It is used to indicate that it is not a main form, but a secondary form that cannot be used in official writings by people hired by the state nor can they be used in school books. Pupils and everyone else can use them and still write a 100% correct, however. --Harald Khan Ճ 11:53, 2 January 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hi there. Norwegian entries should have the ==Norwegian== language header. See Wiktionary:About Norwegian for details. SemperBlotto 09:56, 28 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

No, that is just a draft. No policy has yet been established; see the discussion page for recent debate on the topic. --Harald Khan Ճ 10:00, 28 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hi,

By no means, I wish to make one version of Norwegian better than the other. The assisted method for Norwegian generates Norwegian for the language code "no", which seems to be a de-facto standard or "default" Norwegian if you wish. "nn" generates "Norwegian Nynorsk", which can be nested below Norwegian. If both are identical, there would be no need to display both variants at all but users would want to know the Norwegian translation. On a second thought I checked Wiktionary:About_Norwegian and see that both headers are used but this way:

* Norwegian
*: Bokmål: {{t-|no|mer}}
*: Nynorsk: {{t-|nn|meir}}

Sorry if I angered you. --Anatoli 11:51, 16 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

I'll reply on your talk page. --Harald Khan Ճ 11:54, 16 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

What does the Ճ in your signature mean? --Vahagn Petrosyan 23:46, 16 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hi there. It's not supposed to mean anything, I just thought that it was an awesome letter when I first found it. :-) (looks a bit like two crossed swords)

I am afraid that I know near to nothing about Armenian beyond this letter. --Harald Khan Ճ 08:40, 17 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

Lol. --Vahagn Petrosyan 14:05, 17 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

It seems to me, that the discussion on WT:BP#Norwegian headings ended with a consensus for only one ==Norwegian== heading. So would you please stop creating entries with ==Norwegian Nynorsk== and help me to change the existing ones to ==Norwegian==? --LA2 20:29, 2 March 2011 (UTC)Reply

I do not see any consensus there - let's not jump the gun. Njardarlogar 09:32, 3 March 2011 (UTC)Reply

So, as an experiment for the new consensus of splitting Norwegian into ==Norwegian Bokmål== and ==Norwegian Nynorsk==, I today split fjell into two sections. Hope that's fine. From mountain#Translations we need to specify both translations, but should we use {{t|no|fjell}} or {{t|nb|fjell}} for Bokmål? With nb, it will link to fjell#Norwegian bokmål (fine) but also to the non-existing nb.wiktionary. With no, it will link to the non-existing fjell#Norwegian. Most of the existing translations use t|no (4568 translations), t|nn (297 translations). Should we switch to t|nb and modify the template {{t}} so it links to no.wiktionary? --LA2 19:24, 15 March 2011 (UTC)Reply

It needs to be {{t|nb|fjell}} as that is the correct language code, which is thus also the one used for inflection templates etc. I have been thinking about requesting a change to the {{t}} template for a while, but never got around to it.

With a total split, we should also make no obsolete for translations, and make the script being used on the Wiktionary suggest the codes nb and nn instead, for greater usability. Njardarlogar 19:37, 15 March 2011 (UTC)Reply

Starting to use lang=nb for Norwegian Bokmål has the advantage that lang=no becomes a marker for old entries. Within English Wiktionary (which is my scope), it will be enough a change to the template so {{t|nb|...}} links to the existing no.wiktionary. I have no intention to change its domain name to nb.wiktionary.

I created a frequency list Wiktionary:Frequency lists/Norwegian and started from the top, splitting i, og, av ... and the 30 most common words into two sections. But the example sentences might have to be adjusted to each language. Can you check if som needs some more information from the Bokmål entry? And how should ved bli separated? --LA2 20:10, 15 March 2011 (UTC)Reply

By making no obsolete for translations, I do not intend to make it dysfunctional; only that usage of the code should be discouraged, and, if possible, that the script editor.js could inform users to either select nb or nn. Apart from the fact that the nb should refer to no.wikt, this has nothing to with domains. In fact, the no.wikt domain is correct as they have decided to use both language forms there (I think that is a poor idea, so I stick to the nn.wikt myself). The Bokmål Wikipedia, on the other hand, lies incorrectly at no instead of nb.

If you are going to split more entries, I think you need to use a dictionary. The Norwegian entry at som concerned both languages, while the Nynorsk entry concerned a meaning that is only preserved in Nynorsk. The usage examples at at both i and av were Bokmål and should not have been replicated to the Nynorsk entry. There is also no guarantee for that all the meanings for a word in one language form exists in another one. I have not much time myself at present to take part in cleaning. Njardarlogar 09:17, 16 March 2011 (UTC)Reply

The discussion is back at Wiktionary:Beer_parlour#Norwegian Bokmål/Nynorsk. --LA2 23:50, 8 January 2012 (UTC)Reply

Wiktionary:Todo/etyl_problems has a number of Norwegian terms, for some of which, at least, you have added etymologies. If you could understand and correct the problems, perhaps you would prevent them in the future. Happy editing. DCDuring TALK 00:57, 13 May 2011 (UTC)Reply

It concerns what was debated at WT:BP weeks ago. It has not been propagated for a while I think, at least not by me. Njardarlogar 09:06, 13 May 2011 (UTC)Reply

The header and the {{etyl}} problems are distinct. The {{etyl}} problem predates the discussion. I think there is a need to make the second parameter in the template coincide with with language name in the L2 header. DCDuring TALK 09:27, 13 May 2011 (UTC)```Reply

Yes, this "problem" is old - however, it is part of the same topic (e.g. with a two header-solution, there could be no such problem). Njardarlogar 13:30, 13 May 2011 (UTC)Reply

I've replied to you on my talk page. – Krun 16:49, 30 May 2011 (UTC)Reply

Could you please check and improve this entry so that we can delete its cleanup category? Thanks —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 02:46, 13 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

Could you help User:FredrikMH a bit with Norwegian templates? They're adding table code directly to entries, so I suggested that they use templates instead. But I'm not familiar with what's available for Norwegian. —CodeCat 23:14, 4 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Not only that, the tables are actually incomplete for at least one noun class, with some parallel forms missing. --Njardarlogar (talk) 23:27, 4 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Could you have a look please? —CodeCat 22:06, 20 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

A case of missing backwards compatability. The word in question is no longer part of the official standard, so the entry is kind of dubious in its present form, script errors or not. --Njardarlogar (talk) 22:23, 20 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

What would this be used for exactly? Wouldn't it make more sense to use Scribunto's built-in error function? And also, why is it using HTML elements that have been deprecated for at least a decade? :p —CodeCat 22:34, 3 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

I know "nothing" about HTML, that bit I've picked up somwhere. You can see an example of usage here. Hadn't thought about built in functions, but I am not sure if those are what I am looking for. Can't get error() to work for me. --Njardarlogar (talk) 22:44, 3 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

Really? It's just error("Message to display"). What happens when you use it? —CodeCat 23:07, 3 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

I get Script error. See e.g. this and the associated talk page. Do you have a working example? --Njardarlogar (talk) 23:17, 3 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

Have you actually clicked on the script error? XD —CodeCat 23:58, 3 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

I don't think it's mentioned anywhere that clicking on the red text will provide debugging information, despite this being pretty crucial..

It's definately not doing the same thing as my error message module. It's not user-friendly enough, and on the surface of it, it even looks identical to e.g. a syntax error in the module, which a template user with no knowledge of Lua and modules could not be blamed for. --Njardarlogar (talk) 10:40, 4 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

It's meant to show a script error, which isn't the same as just a syntax error, but more general. I think it is a good idea to use it when someone uses the template/module in a way they're not supposed to, because it automatically puts the entry in a category. —CodeCat 14:12, 4 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

Categorisation is as trivial to implement through modules as it is through templates, so that shouldn't be much of an argument.

I didn't mean to imply anything about syntax errors in particular, it's just that the information is more hidden with error(). I am sure throwing script errors has its uses too, but not in the main namespace; it would be too cryptic and unaccessible for the average user. --Njardarlogar (talk) 14:32, 4 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

Then I think that the display of script errors should probably be changed. It seems like a very bad idea to reinvent the wheel just because it doesn't have rubber tyres... —CodeCat 15:45, 4 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

Might want to consult the devs on this. --Njardarlogar (talk) 17:45, 4 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

I agree that this module should be deleted. The red, clickable error message is only going to be seen by editors, not by general users. Editors should know to click it. SemperBlotto (talk) 15:47, 4 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

It is pointlessly complicated. If a template is missing an argument, you want a simple in-line message, not a table/box that appears at a click. Keep it simple. --Njardarlogar (talk) 17:45, 4 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

I’m seeing this in some functions:

gender_text = {
         m = "<span class=\"gender m\" title=\"masculine gender\">''m<span class=\"gender-period\">.</span>''",
         f = '<span class="gender f" title="feminine gender">\'\'f<span class="gender-period">.</span>\'\'',
         n = '<span class="gender n" title="neuter gender">\'\'n<span class="gender-period">.</span>\'\''}

There are two opening span tags, but only one closing tag. I can’t tell where this function is called from, so I don’t want to mess with it, in case the tag is closed elsewhere in your code. —Michael Z. 2013-03-09 16:28 z

Wouldn't it be better to use Module:gender and number? —CodeCat 16:31, 9 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, I haven't gotten around to that yet. I'll look into it. --Njardarlogar (talk) 16:41, 9 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

This category currently contains a number of Norwegian verb and noun forms that have alternative forms listed in the link. I figured that there are probably dedicated Norwegian templates for this, so could you have a look and convert them please? —CodeCat 03:18, 16 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

I'll look into it. --Njardarlogar (talk) 18:44, 22 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

Cleared. --Njardarlogar (talk) 10:47, 27 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

This entry currently has a script error triggered by {{nn-noun-ium}} and Module:nn-noun-reg. There are also a few personal pages and templates in Category:Pages with script errors. Could you have a look? —CodeCat 19:24, 4 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

Is it an issue that user (sub)pages contain script errors? --Njardarlogar (talk) 09:02, 8 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

I moved them to a subcategory so it's not such an issue anymore. Of course it's still better if they don't have errors, though. :) —CodeCat 12:47, 8 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi, I wonder whether you can work on this entry at some stage? I have separated Nynorsk from Bokmål, but haven't succeeded in removing the reference to Bokmål in that infernal template. Donnanz (talk) 12:04, 12 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Fixed it. --Njardarlogar (talk) 21:47, 13 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Thanks a lot! Donnanz (talk) 22:02, 13 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

The n1 template doesn't work with "tre" for some reason. It's the same with juletre, which I am going to rewrite. Donnanz (talk) 09:40, 30 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Think I know what went wrong. Also think I'll experiment some with a test page that shows whether changes to scripts introduce errors. --Njardarlogar (talk) 11:39, 30 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

I tried that trick with juletre but it didn't work, have you changed something since? Donnanz (talk) 11:47, 30 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, the the word itself needs to be provided as the first argument to the template, as this is what the suffix -et will be added to. --Njardarlogar (talk) 11:49, 30 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

OK, I'm not a template expert. I have altered christmas tree to Christmas tree (Christmas is capitalised). Donnanz (talk) 11:57, 30 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

I've altered the module again so that it now assumes that -et should be added to all regular neuter words, so it's no longer necessary to use the argument for words like tre. Now it's only necessary to use it for neuter words that do not follow the rule indef. sg. + -et (of which I currently can't think of any examples). --Njardarlogar (talk) 16:00, 30 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

OK, brilliant. I'll see how it works with the next neuter entry I do. The Bokmål neuter templates are OK, except they don't work for sted if I remember. And tre words in Bokmål have to be done manually. Donnanz (talk) 18:44, 30 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Another thought. The Nynorsk m1 template doesn't work very well when the plural has a different spelling leaving out an "e" I think. I can get around it with the m1 template in Bokmål, but the same trick doesn't work in Nynorsk. Donnanz (talk) 19:15, 30 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Do you have an example? --Njardarlogar (talk) 19:38, 30 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Just remembered that eple is an example of a word that disobeys the previously mentioned rule. --Njardarlogar (talk) 19:49, 30 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

With eple (Bokmål) the n2 template applies. Anyway, I have dug up three examples - ankel (Nynorsk) (nn-noun-m1), which works OK with "ankl", jungel (Nynorsk) (nn-noun-m1) where "jungl" doesn't work, and handel (Nynorsk) where "handl" doesn't work (I've just tried it again with nn-noun-m1, and head|nn|noun|g=m is being used instead). Donnanz (talk) 20:18, 30 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

jungel and handel are now working. --Njardarlogar (talk) 20:43, 30 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Ah, wonderful! And the inflections for jungel were there all the time. So all the "el" forms should be OK now? Donnanz (talk) 20:49, 30 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Some existing entries might be incorrect due to a potential lack of backwards compatibility with the old m1 template that did not rely on Scribunto; but once they use the template like jungel and handel do, they should be correct. --Njardarlogar (talk) 20:57, 30 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Thanks. I think I have raised enough issues for one day... Donnanz (talk) 21:00, 30 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Actually...I think I'll have to revert the change I made for n1 yesterday, as the case -e → -et seems a lot more common than -e → -eet (as can be verified by browsing this list). So it's back with the argument for the trees. One group will need to have the argument, as there is no way to tell which word belongs to which group from the word itself. --Njardarlogar (talk) 11:03, 31 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

• Yeah, I added bartre (Nynorsk) only yesterday, using "nn-noun-n1|bartre". That works fine. Donnanz (talk) 14:13, 10 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

Do you think this entry should be scrapped? I think only mykje is used in Nynorsk, but I could be wrong. I added meste (Nynorsk) today, and linked it to mykje. Donnanz (talk) 13:57, 10 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

Since 2012 it has no longer been part of official Nynorsk; and I don't think it was used much while it were (part of the reason it was dropped, I presume). --Njardarlogar (talk) 13:49, 14 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

Oh, I see. I note that you have dealt with it, thanks. Donnanz (talk) 09:14, 18 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

https://en.wiktionary.orghttps://dictious.com/en/Wiktionary:Frequency_lists/Nynorsk_(NRK) what do they mean here?

There are some Nynorsk entries that have invalid parameters on this template, and they are now showing up as module errors. Could you fix these please? —CodeCat 16:43, 2 December 2015 (UTC)Reply

Throwing errors for unused parameters seems rather draconian. Is this a new policy? --Njardarlogar (talk) 17:33, 4 December 2015 (UTC)Reply

• I had a message yesterday from User:Chuck Entz on this subject, asking if I could help, but I'm not sure what to do. I think it's up to those who change templates and modules to rectify the damage caused. He gave a link to a list (Category:Pages with module errors). Donnanz (talk) 16:44, 8 December 2015 (UTC)Reply

I'm not happy with CodeCat for doing this, but I don't want to get into an edit war over it. Meanwhile, we have a number of module errors in Nynorsk entries that nobody's doing anything about, and I have no way of telling whether the old parameters are just extra or if they contain data that should be transferred to other parameters. I can see how it might be a bit galling to be put in this situation, but I'd appreciate your help, anyway. Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 02:14, 9 December 2015 (UTC)Reply

The problem is that the information passed as arguments to the template is not really invalid, yet I am not sure how to best handle it (they used to be rare, yet officially sanctioned inflected forms (but aren't any more)). Just removing these inflected forms from the entries doesn't really seem like a step forward; and I question the wisdom of throwing module errors over unused parameter names. --Njardarlogar (talk) 08:46, 9 December 2015 (UTC)Reply

I think it should be spelt vedunderleg. It was entered by Meco in 2008, who is now globally blocked. So should it be deleted and replaced by the correct spelling? Donnanz (talk) 12:24, 12 January 2016 (UTC)Reply

Hi again, I'm a bit confused about this prefix, which is listed for Bokmål but not in the Nynorsk Dictionary, which seems to suggest compounds of knall instead. I have just done entries for knallblå. However, Lexin says knall- is a prefix in Nynorsk too . Are you able to confirm this? Donnanz (talk) 19:54, 10 April 2016 (UTC)Reply

This seems to me to be more about semantics than anything. You can add knall to the beginning of words in both Nynorsk or Bokmål, but whether or not that makes knall a prefix is something a linguist is better qualified to answer.

The Bokmål dictionary entry does not really call it a prefix, but says that it is used in compound words (samansetningar). --Njardarlogar (talk) 11:27, 13 April 2016 (UTC)Reply

Ah, OK, I had better qualify that prefix entry in some way, rather than deleting it. In compounds it seems to take on a different sense to knall (Bokmål) and knall (Nynorsk) though. Donnanz (talk) 14:27, 26 April 2016 (UTC)Reply

I just noticed that the entry in the Nynorsk Dictionary on knall contains the compound sense ("forsterkande i somme samansetningar"). And yes, knall does indeed appear to have a different meaning when combined with other words, so maybe a prefix entry is the best solution.

To complicate matters further, it seems to me that knall may also take on an adverbial sense in actual usage, like in knall rosa ('sharply pink'); although this can also be a misspelling of knallrosa, depending on the author's intention. --Njardarlogar (talk) 17:57, 27 April 2016 (UTC)Reply

Yes, I noticed that in the Nynorsk dictionary. And regards combining or not combining words, I came across boksøl (canned beer) which isn't the same as en/ein boks øl (a can of beer). It's all fun working it out. Donnanz (talk) 18:13, 27 April 2016 (UTC)Reply

Being a pest again - is this an (adverbial) form of sommartid (just entered) in the same manner as sommerstid (Bokmål)? I can't find any dictionary listing for this, but there is one for vinterstid in Nynorsk. DonnanZ (talk) 10:18, 14 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

Judging by the Nynorsk dictionary, it seems that the words with the -s- interfix can be used both as adverbs and nouns; although they are probably used more as the former than the latter (as indicated by the særleg remark). It might be that there is a difference between Nynorsk and Bokmål here. I also presume that the omission of sommarstid from the Nynorsk dictionary is more or less arbitrary. --Njardarlogar (talk) 19:51, 14 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

Yes, there's a lot of words missing, I find sometimes that a word appears in one language but not the other, yet I discover that it is used in both. I wonder whether the move from Oslo to Bergen University will bring any difference. Den Danske Ordbog seems to be more complete. Anyway, I will have a think about sommarstid. DonnanZ (talk) 20:05, 14 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

Hello. I've been looking for a citation of åverk and came across this.

• 1923, Ivar Kleiven, Gamal bondekultur i Gudbrandsdalen: Lesja og Dovre, Aschehoug, 310.

  Me'a 'n såt sålest sette dæ på å braske og bråkå i skoga, og dæ va hørandest te, at turrkvisten vart skjyr — 'n Anders smatt attom ei gjømsle og ha haug te sjå, kåfor eit åverk dæ va som va ute og fór.

A lot of the forms look similar to Nynorsk to me, but it also looks incredibly non-standard. Do you know what it is? Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 13:47, 15 October 2016 (UTC)Reply

It's dialect. Non-paired ' is sometimes used in Norwegian when using or quoting dialectal words to indicate where the equivalent word in standard language has extra letters (or something to that effect); not terribly unlike the way it is used in English to indicate contraction (like it's). --Njardarlogar (talk) 15:35, 15 October 2016 (UTC)Reply

Right, so it's similar to fo'c's'le or the apologetic apostrophe. Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:52, 19 October 2016 (UTC)Reply

Hello!

I have stumbled into making some edits here, mainly on Norwegian Nynorsk words. You seem to be one of the main contributors in Norwegian Nynorsk, so I just thought I'd say hi. I've edited in Wikipedia before, but not in Wiktionary. I'm trying to follow conventions, but I'm sure I'll make some faux pas or other, and maybe already have. If so, please feel free to let me know, and be assured all my edits are done in good faith. I have a few questions, which I will ask on my own discussion page, so others can also weigh in. Hope you will take the time to reply! --Barend (talk) 14:27, 10 December 2016 (UTC)Reply

Dette ord blev tilføjet på da.wikt, og definitionen antyder, at der er tale om et norsk ord (evt. stavet anderledes). Kan du sige, om det er pis?__Gamren (talk) 13:29, 30 March 2017 (UTC)Reply

Eg har aldri høyrt om det, men rett nok er eg ingen skientusiast. Rett bokmål ville vel vore «danskehull», men det gjev berre eitt Google-treff. --Njardarlogar (talk) 14:39, 30 March 2017 (UTC)Reply

An old form of anbefaling? DonnanZ (talk) 19:42, 28 September 2017 (UTC)Reply

Also do you know anything about stormenner? I have sent it to RFD, but it may be an old form (entered in 2008) DonnanZ (talk) 20:42, 28 September 2017 (UTC)Reply

They are "old" in the sense that they were removed from the official form of Nynorsk with the 2012 reform. They still show up in the dictionary. --Njardarlogar (talk) 07:39, 4 October 2017 (UTC)Reply

Ah, stormenner is Nynorsk. I should have checked Einar Haugen's Norwegian-English Dictionary, it's shown as being Nynorsk in there. Thanks. DonnanZ (talk) 09:26, 4 October 2017 (UTC)Reply

Some of your files have ended up in here, a category I'm trying to empty. Would you be so kind as to move them if it's possible? Cheers. DonnanZ (talk) 22:44, 13 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

Good job on the cleaning up. I'd add that in the vast majority of cases, {{inherited}} is more precise than {{derived}} for Nynorsk and Bokmål when it comes to Old Norse words. Also, I don't think {{R:Dokpro}} and {{R:Dokumentasjonsprosjektet}} should be used, but instead {{R:The Nynorsk Dictionary}} and {{R:The Bokmål Dictionary}}, as appropriate. The project the first template names refer to was actually finished in 1997, and much have changed since then for the online dictionaries. --Njardarlogar (talk) 08:57, 20 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

You're right of course, but I'm not a believer in using {{inh}} or {{bor}}; anything I have done can always be revised, nothing is chiselled in stone. I only discovered {{R:Dokpro}} recently, found it works very well and started using it for new entries, it saves a few keystrokes. Thanks for moving the files, I should finish this Nynorsk cleanup in a couple of days. DonnanZ (talk) 10:16, 20 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

I'm back again! I would use these adjective templates, but they are out of date and don't create lemmas. The only one that does create lemmas is {{nb-adj-form}}, created in 2015. The problem is that other users use them, and then their entries need cleaning up - I have been working through a list User:DTLHS sent me, changing them to {{head|nb|adjective}}, which I use anyway because of the lemma problem. I think you must have dealt with this for Nynorsk. I would rather use templates that don't automatically create comparatives and superlatives, but which can be added if they are used. There have been some horrible comparatives and superlatives created in the past where mer and mest should really be used. Besides that, the templates don't need to show masculine and feminine, just "neuter singular" and "definite singular and plural". DonnanZ (talk) 17:41, 26 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

Don't let cleanup list take precedence over everything else. A missing lemma category is a minor thing. By substituting specialised templates with more generic ones, maintenance and standardisation of entries becomes more arduous in the long run. Categories can also be added manually without the use of templates.

If you want templates to add pages to a lemma category, you just need to include <includeonly>{{#if:{{NAMESPACE}}||]}}</includeonly> on the template page (the if statement ensures that the category is only added in the main name space), like this. In concordance with the Nynorsk templates, I've changed {{nb-adj-1}} to use meir-type infleciton if mer is passed as the first argument (- seems also to be used currently, but I guess it should be reserved for adjectives that are incomparable). I'll edit more of the templates later. --Njardarlogar (talk) 10:33, 27 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

I'm mixing clean-ups with other things actually. Some of them have been difficult, especially entries made by Meco back in 2007-8. I'm no whizz kid when it comes to improving templates though, I'm quite happy to leave that to you! At your leisure of course. DonnanZ (talk) 16:44, 27 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

I'm not sure whether the edit on etterpåklok added the category "Norwegian Bokmål adjectives that lack comparative forms", which is hardly true, as mer and mest are added. That category needs to be scrapped, I think. DonnanZ (talk) 17:06, 27 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

I tried using {{nb-adj-1}} when creating klok (Bokmål), but it doesn't generate the definite superlative (klokeste), yet {{nn-adj-1}} generates klokaste, so there's a difference between the two templates somewhere. And what happens when you don't want to create comparatives? There may be another template for that scenario. DonnanZ (talk) 18:26, 27 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

That category bit was copied from another template, and yes, it might not be appropriate for e.g. {{nb-adj-1}}. It does seem appropriate for {{nb-adj-3}}; I interpret 'form' here to mean an inflected form of the adjective itself, so I view e.g. etterpåklokare as a comparative form and meir etterpåklok as a "comparative construction", or whatever would be the correct terminology. I don't see why you'd want to not show the comparatives if the adjective actually has them and is comparable.

The Nynorsk adjective templates have a fundamental difference in that they are implemented in module code. Ideally, the Bokmål templates would also be migrated to module code, but that's low on my priority list. Then again, it might actually be just as fast to migrate them to module code as to edit the template code, as I am doing now, so I might just migrate now them anyway. We'll see. --Njardarlogar (talk) 14:20, 10 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

Ok, I've created a module for regular Bokmål adjectives, patterned after the Nynorsk one. {{nb-adj-irreg}} is still dumb, but it should now add the lemma category. --Njardarlogar (talk) 17:03, 17 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for what you've done so far. I used {{nb-adj-3}} today for neglebitende and bitende, both are comparable so that was OK, and -ende adjectives would only use mer and mest I think. The problem was deciding whether neglebitende is derived from bitende or bite, but in "bitende hund" or "bitende insekt" it wouldn't normally be comparable, so I guess they come from the present participle. Not being a Norwegian I have to test each adjective to see whether it's comparable. DonnanZ (talk) 19:57, 18 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

naglebitande presumably comes from bita negler. I think most adjectives can have senses that are not binary (and are thus comparable), though in many cases the non-comparable senses might be much more common. So unless it does not make much logical sense for the senses of an adjective to have non-binary complementary senses (like for maksimal), it should be a pretty safe bet to have the comparatives in the template.

In general, comparability versus non-comparability seems like a pretty hairy topic, and one could probably argue that one could just as well show comparative forms for all adjectives, and then let the user decide if they are relevant for them or not. --Njardarlogar (talk) 10:59, 19 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said "comparability versus non-comparability seems like a pretty hairy topic". I have just finished vekselvarm (Bokmål) and vekselvarm (Nynorsk), and I decided it isn't comparable. That prompts me to suggest a "not comparable" option, something like how {{en-adj|-}} works, which could translate to {{nn-adj-1|-}} (which doesn't work at present, I tried). I don't know what you think of that idea. Apart from that, {{nb-adj-2|ere|st}} and {{nn-adj-2|are|ast}} both work quite well. DonnanZ (talk) 00:04, 26 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

Oops, I should have read the template documentation, you have already made provision for that! {{nn-adj-1|non-comp}} does the job quite satisfactorily. DonnanZ (talk) 00:34, 26 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

That's correct (also, the arguments passed with {{nb-adj-2|ere|st}} should not do anything). Some templates (like {{nb-adj-3}}) have different default settings and do not generate -are, -ast forms regardless of arguments; but beyond that, the arguments should be the same for all templates, like described in the documentation. --Njardarlogar (talk) 10:31, 26 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

"st" and "ste" aren't mentioned in the documentation for {{nb-adj-2}}, only "est" and "este", I can't remember whether both forms are used with that template, but "st" is definitely used for words with -ig endings, like giftig. DonnanZ (talk) 14:23, 26 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

These lines of code are supposed take care of the -igst superlatives. They assume that all adjectives of class 2 ending in -ig should have the -st form for their superlatives (an assumption that seems to be correct). I try to make the module code as clever as possible, where all exceptions that can be handled automatically are handled automatically. The documentation for the Norwegian templates tends to be somewhat incomplete (most of these templates also tend to be work in progress). --Njardarlogar (talk) 15:40, 26 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

Yes, I tried using {{nb-adj-irreg}} for uomskåret, but it didn't work and I'm not sure what it's designed for, so I used {{head|nb|adjective}} for that and uomskåren, omskåret and omskåren. I subsequently had a look at {{nb-adj-6}}, but you haven't touched that one. DonnanZ (talk) 19:21, 26 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

{{nb-adj-6}} looked redundant, so I've claimed it for adjectives like -skåret, -skrevet etc. This category of adjectives seems to roughly correspond to a subset of the adjectives derived from verbs that ended in -it in the neuter past participle in Old Norse (as opposed to -at, like many of the adjectives that use {{nb-adj-3}} or {{nb-adj-4}}), with another subset of them inflecting appropriately for {{nb-adj-5}}. --Njardarlogar (talk) 20:04, 26 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

Wonderful, all your wizardry is going to make entering adjectives much easier. Thanks yet again. DonnanZ (talk) 12:59, 27 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

I have come across a couple of these recently, kommuniké being the latest. I don't think these are a problem in Nynorsk with the existing parameters for {{nn-noun-irreg}}, but it's a different matter in Bokmål where {{nb-noun-irreg}} can't be used, especially with n3-type nouns. The parameter ds2= is probably enough for the definite singular, but ip3 (and possibly ip4) is needed for indefinite plurals, and dp3 and dp4 for definite plurals. Entering these inflections can be a real pain! DonnanZ (talk) 22:24, 13 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

Accents in commons nouns and the other classes of words are always optional, as far as I understand it, so I have added support for their automatic handling with the templates for regular nouns. Currently, accented versions of a, e and o automatically lead to alternative non-accented inflected forms being provided.

The rules for the circumflex are less clear to me. For example, the dictionary entry for vêr does not give the option of using the circumflex in the indefinite singular and then not in the other inflected forms; so I am leaving the circumflex out of the automatic handling for now. --Njardarlogar (talk) 11:40, 24 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

Trying to remember all the information provided in that link makes my head spin a bit, so I may have to refer to it again. Yes, I have often noticed the accent is dropped in inflections, but is used for the indefinite singular. Anyway thanks once again, so now {{nb-noun-n3}} and {{nn-noun-n1}} can now be used here, and {{nb-noun-m1}} and {{nn-noun-m1}} can now be used for masculine nouns with -é endings. That's great! DonnanZ (talk) 16:34, 24 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

I'm unclear about the etymology where -semd is concerned. Does it come from the adjective verksam (no Nynorsk yet) or from verk or verke/verka? -semd is listed as a suffix used to create nouns from -sam adjectives. DonnanZ (talk) 14:54, 21 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

I don't think I can add much beyond what the Nynorsk Dictionary entry on -semd says. Note that the first definition in the dictionary's entry for verksemd defines it as the state of being verksam, which is consistent. At first glance, the list of all entries suffixed with -semd in the dictionary also seems consistent with this general etymology. --Njardarlogar (talk) 13:56, 23 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

OK, from verksam it is then, I had better add a entry for that too. And the 2nd definition comes from the first. Thanks a lot. DonnanZ (talk) 14:32, 23 February 2018 (UTC)Reply