User talk:Heyzeuss

Hi and welcome to the English Wiktionary. The Finnish future tense, which is frowned upon by language purists (teachers and the like) as incorrect grammar is formed by the (inflected) verb tulla and third infinitive illative (I just looked it up) of the main verb. For example, tulee tapahtumaan = is going to happen, or literally, "comes into happening". The third infinitive illative is formed with the suffix -maan or -mään. The future tense is used often and everyone understands it, although the present tense can be used as well, but then you often need to somehow indicate that it's the future you are talking about (and that is by far the most common way to express future things, not the future tense).

The gender neutral pronoun problem you are talking about is reversed when one translates from English to Finnish: the speaker can indicate the gender of the person who is being referred to by using he or she. The translator may then have to add some awkward word that indicates the gender or reformulate the complete sentence. By the way, I'm partial to using they instead of "he/she".

If you're serious about learning Finnish, I applaud your effort, because it's probably not the easiest language to master. ;) I'm curious to know how you as a learner see the division of the Finnish language into the standard form (kirjakieli or more properly yleiskieli) and the spoken form (puhekieli). The colloquial inflections are of course more important, unless you need to write something important. :) Wipe 00:50, 20 November 2009 (UTC)Reply

Continued on Wipe's talk page...

<-- Started on Tropylium's Wikipedia Talk Page

Requests for pronunciation in Finnish seems to be continuously empty (or just filled out as soon as entries are added). I don't usually to add English pronunciations, since for words that don't have any yet, there may too likely be some tripping points for L2 speakers.

If you're referring to something else, you'll have to be more specific…--Tropylium 23:35, 24 January 2010 (UTC)Reply

i added a finnish section for wiktionary. i'm curious about pronunciation. i also made a stab at declension, but I have a strong feeling that the word has not been carved in stone, so to speak. Heyzeuss 06:45, 8 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Actually, it's Wikisanakirja in Finnish (ie. simply wiki + sanakirja, pronounced straightforwardly ). --Tropylium 20:14, 9 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

(or perhaps hypercorrectly , I kno I say so at least, but then again I also say a lot of other things in a partially non-assimilated way: (encore), (Munich), and so on.)

ok. i was a little confused about that. i was trying to figure out if Wiktionary is a front or back vowel word, and if it exists in Finnish at all. i came to the tenative conclusion that it is a front vowel word, and that it does have some use in finnish. i did a search on fi.wiktionary.org for Wiktionaryssa and Wiktionaryssä and there were a lot of results both ways.

There's a lot of fluctuation in non-nativized loanwords (and not only in inflection: eg. primaarinen ~ primäärinen). I might say (nativization by pronunciation → front-vocalic) or , (nativization by orthography → can be either).

do you feel that it is appropriate to include the term in reference to the english language project? (deprecated template usage) Wiktionary

OIC… I'm not sure about that, maybe they'd kno over at fi.wiktionary if it's actually in use there?

btw i'm never quite sure how to assimilate words either, and it's difficult for me because even though english is germanic, it's vocabulary is ⅔ french and latin. wikipedia has extensive information on how to use french words; if they should be used as in the original form or be spelled/pronounced/defined differently. finnish is in the process of assimilating small parts of english and swedish, but the words undergo radical finnicisation (i made that one up myself). strand (-st, d->t, +a) = ranta.

That one comes all the way from Proto-Germanic *stranda so the -a is original, actually. --Tropylium 23:15, 11 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

thank you for getting back to me! ☺     heyzeuss 06:31, 10 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

You're welcome! There are yet a lot more suffix categories to create, and I haven't even begun the prefixes. A bot would be great for this kind of repetitive task. :) Capmo 11:39, 10 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

A few thoughs about your missing entries list conserning Finnish terms. Kirjaus means an entry, in an account for example. It can also mean a registration in some sense. It is derived from kirjata (see -us). "Hyvittäke" is not a word that I know of. Hyvitys means a compensation. Kuntayhtymä is a co-operative body of two or more communes (kunta) and yhtymävaltuusto or kuntayhtymävaltuusto is a council of such a body. Summautua (not "summauttua") means something like "to form a sum"; see also summata. Lainanlyhennys (lainan + lyhennys) is an installment of a loan (excluding the interest). A long-term liability is 'pitkäaikainen vieras pääoma' (more often such liabilities collectively, I believe).

Käyneellekin should probably not be a Wiktionary entry, as every nomini can have a variety of such suffixes in every inflected form. Palkallinen is an adjective meaning paid something, such as a traineeship or holiday. There is a close word palkollinen which means an employee (työntekijä, työläinen), especially traditionally in rural communities. Note that these words carry different connotations; työntekijä is the neutral word. Yleiskieli is the opposite of colloquial language. Besides formal (Finnish) language it can mean a lingua franca. I'd say that "hyvinhän tuo sujuu" is not an idiom, but a sum of it's parts (hyvin + -hän + tuo + sujua). Equally well you could say, e.g., "tämäpä sujuu huonosti" or "sujuuhan se kohtalaisesti" etc.

-Vn is a little strange entry. Maybe there should be -hVn also, for the dialectical variants. Wipe 21:04, 21 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

that's a lot of information; thank you! ~ heyzeuss 09:37, 24 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

FYI: you have this word on your user page, but it does not exist. You probably mean hyvitys. Another word that comes close is hyvittäkää, which is the plural second person imperative of (deprecated template usage) hyvittää. Regards, --Hekaheka 10:17, 27 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

I got the word when I was trying to strip off the ending and get the lemma of hyvittäen, which is the second infinitive instructive of hyvittää. Sometimes I can figure out the etymology by inserting a K between some vowels. This is something that search suggestions will not do for me, on google or wiktionary. It's frustrating! ~ heyzeuss 13:44, 28 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hi, please be careful with the conjugation. Consonant gradation is not always obvious, especially for non-Finnish words. You can consult the KOTUS word list if needed. --Jyril 19:58, 8 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

Will do. That was a particularly difficult word. The consonant gradation rules are quite consistent, if complex, and I have never seen an exception to the regular pattern of consonant gradation in a verb before.

I'm trying to create a model for Finnish Consonant gradation. The primary rules are the most common, except when the secondary rules apply. I've been adding rules as I go along. I have not yet included rules about quantitative and qualitative consonant gradation.

~ heyzeuss 11:47, 10 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

I don't know if one can say it's an exception, more like that word just don't have gradation (because the -nn- comes from the final -n in scan). It's quite normal that new loanwords miss gradation (cf. haiku (from Japanese)). --Jyril 17:26, 10 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

It has two! :( but thank you for pointing that out.

• haiku- {{fi-decl-valo|hai|k||u}} wiff of smoke
• haiku- {{fi-decl-valo|haik|||u}} poem ~ heyzeuss 18:24, 10 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

Can you please undo these changes, we do not use diacritics in Old English page titles. See WT:AANG. Ƿidsiþ 07:54, 20 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

Yes, I will. ~ heyzeuss 07:57, 20 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

working on it, thank you :-)

we've made a first try on en:wiki there Index:Haitian Creole

thank u for your interests

w:ht:user:masterches

I've put in an rfd on Wiktionary:Finnish inflection types/verbs/sanoa. Care to join the discussion? And if there's anywhere else you think this should be posted, please do so. --KJBracey 15:46, 3 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

Do you have a list of what you want deleted, to save you having to tag each one, then I have to find each one, I can just delete the whole list. Conrad.Irwin 10:37, 7 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

I can make a list, but it will come in chunks. I'm going through Wiktionary:Finnish inflection types/verbs and looking for pages that are no longer linked to from the main namespace. Is there a way to do that faster? ~ heyzeuss 10:46, 7 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

Yes, I can run a bot to check all the links on that page if you like. Conrad.Irwin 10:47, 7 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

Do you want them all gone, or just the named ones and not the numbers, or what? Conrad.Irwin 11:02, 7 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

That saves me some time! Yeah, go ahead. ~ heyzeuss 11:13, 7 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

Ok, I'll send them off in batches of ten. Conrad.Irwin 11:22, 7 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

Nouns too. Thank you very much! ~ heyzeuss 11:31, 7 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

Did you ever ask what User:Frous has to say about this? He's the one who created the tables and I assume it's been a huge job. Anyway, you have forgotten this: Wiktionary:Finnish_inflection_types/verbs/35. Any specific reason, why? --Hekaheka 08:03, 30 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

User:Frous hasn't been around, although he did not get invited to the main discussion, as he should have. You should have been invited too. See the discussion above this one. It is the invitation that User:KJBracey passed around. He's the one who has designed the conjugation and declension tables in their current form. I am confident that Frous' hard work has been preserved in the new appendices. The detailed notes that he wrote are especially important and I have referred to them often.

Verb group 35 hasn't been deleted because it is still linked to by two words: töötätä and tyytätä. ~ heyzeuss 10:17, 30 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

Isn't anymore. Regards, --Hekaheka 11:25, 30 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

I cleared out all of the main namespace links to appendices under Wiktionary:Finnish inflection types/verbs. Can you delete the rest of them?

Done (finally). Conrad.Irwin 21:25, 1 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

A few of the new appendices got nixed by accident:

• Appendix:Finnish_conjugation types/sanoa
• Appendix:Finnish conjugation types/voida
• Appendix:Finnish conjugation types/saada

and one old one got left behind.

• Wiktionary:Finnish inflection types/verbs/saada

Thanks in advance. :)         ~ heyzeuss 08:21, 2 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

Sorry! — surely you should be an admin by now? :p Conrad.Irwin 10:25, 2 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

Maybe sometime, if I become too much of a pest. For now, can you make me a AWB user? ~ heyzeuss 08:35, 3 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

Cool :). Sure, done — I'm not sure what the procedure is for AWB, be sensible with it! Conrad.Irwin 15:38, 6 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hello again Heyzeuss. Are anagrams a pasttime in Finland - and, if so, would you like Conrad.Bot to add anagrams for Finnish entries (it already does English, French, Hebrew, Icelandic and Italian). The only question I have is, how do you treat the letters with diacritics, are they interchangable, or distinct, does it depend on the letter? Conrad.Irwin 14:17, 11 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

The Finnish language has a "policy" on anagrams at Wiktionary:About Finnish#Anagrams, which I made up all by myself. Spaces and punctuation are ignored. Ä, Ö, and Å are unique phenomic letters that are not interchangeable with plain letters. ~ heyzeuss 14:36, 11 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

Perfect. Thanks. Conrad.Irwin 14:38, 11 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

The letters in question are located in the end of the Finnish alphabet, which is the same as English up to Z: ...Z, Å, Ä, Ö. --Hekaheka 08:24, 19 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

Restored - over to you to format it properly and clean it up. SemperBlotto 21:09, 22 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

FYI: your first guess for the conjugation was correct. The slang words are often tricky. --Hekaheka 17:01, 10 August 2010 (UTC)Reply

A community vote a few months ago (see WT:VOTE) decided to use the full language name rather then en:, fi:, fr: etc. So this category is correct. However there's been some debate over Finnish cardinal numbers or Finnish cardinal numerals. Once that issue is sorted, a bot could easily go through them and change them. So your edit was correct in the first place. Mglovesfun (talk) 12:47, 26 August 2010 (UTC)Reply

After reading some of the discussion (shoot me in the head), I decided that I still want to merge the two categories for now because otherwise people will continue to messily feed them both. I already spent some time moving entries from the old to the new one. The new one is mainly fed by Template:enum.

old: Category:fi:Cardinal numbers - contains good appendix information

new: Category:Finnish cardinal numbers - contains categorized entries

As you said, it can then be renamed when the vote ends. ~ heyzeuss 13:56, 26 August 2010 (UTC)Reply

Prince Kassad— Category:fi:Cardinal numbers contained usable information besides the categorized entries, but it had the wrong name and it was a redundant category. Can you merge the revision history into Category:Finnish cardinal numbers? ~ heyzeuss 19:08, 12 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

I moved the contents to Appendix:Finnish numbers, which seems like a better place to me. I would have restored the history too but as it seems, you can't move categories. -- Prince Kassad 19:38, 12 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

Thank you kindly! :)     ~ heyzeuss 19:58, 12 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

Special:Uncategorizedpages has about 30 entries that, apparently due to something you did in connection with trying to add inflections, have been trashed. You probably want to fix them. DCDuring TALK 14:27, 31 August 2010 (UTC)Reply

Checking... ~ heyzeuss 16:00, 31 August 2010 (UTC)Reply

Those were entries with conjugation information, but no definitions. I will put a definition needed template back in. ~ heyzeuss 16:07, 31 August 2010 (UTC)Reply

No, I was wrong. They are just normal form-of entries. I am restoring them now. I've been removing form-of definitions where foobar is an inflected form of itself: foobar. ~ heyzeuss 08:27, 2 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

Is designed for the sort of thing you're currently doing. Mglovesfun (talk) 10:01, 14 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

I'll put one in before I continue. ~ heyzeuss 10:07, 14 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

Re "I've been removing form-of definitions where foobar is an inflected form of itself: foobar": Why have you been removing them? Is there a discussion in which people propose this or agree to this? --Dan Polansky 06:22, 15 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

Yes, at WT:RFFF. ~ heyzeuss 06:32, 15 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

Okay, I see there has been the request Wiktionary:RFFF#Redundant Finnish form-of glosses, 14 Semptember 2010, approved by Prince Kassad and Mglovesfun. But there is no discussion in RFFF, only a quick approval by two admins.

It seems to me that inflected forms that look the same as the lemma but have a distinct underlying form should better be represented explicitly. But I do not know of much precedent or a previous discussion of the subject. The Latin form abluvio, to take an example, is also a vocative singular of itself, and indeed has no inflected form section for vocative singular, so that fits to what you are doing. Hm. --Dan Polansky 07:29, 15 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

These glosses are normal in Finnish entries. Sometimes the inflected form is the same as the lemma, and other times not. Most of them were put in before the Finnish section of Wiktionary got its own conjugation templates. Now the conjugation tables make them redundant, where the lemma equals the inflected form. For example, in the conjugation table of visioida, ei visioida is shown in bold as the indicative present passive negative form. Since the information is shown once in the conjugation table, it doesn't need to be shown again as a gloss. ~ heyzeuss 07:43, 15 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

Conjugation tables placed in the lemma pages do not make inflected-form lines redundant. The conjugation table in abluvio does not make "dative plural of abluviō" and "ablative plural of abluviō" in abluvionibus redundant. To me, that an inflected form looks exactly the same as the lemma does not seem to justify a treatment of it that is different from those inflected forms that look different from the lemma.

In "visioda", the inflected form seems to be an express intention of Jyril (talk • contribs), placed to the entry together with the conjugation table. Have you talked to Jyril? --Dan Polansky 07:58, 15 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

They are not redundant when the conjugation table is in one entry and the inflected form gloss is in another entry, but I'm looking for entries where both co-exist and provide the same datum. Otherwise, the glosses are quite helpful when they point to another entry. Jyril has been taking a break, but he just came back. I'll mention it to him. ~ heyzeuss 08:14, 15 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

(unindent) Other than being on another page, they are equally redundant: the same information is presented in two different forms on two locations. The page "abluvionibus" could simply say "any of various inflected forms of abluvio", redirecting the reader to the lemma page, which already says which inflected forms are "abluvionibus". So the intention in the current practice not only in Finnish entries but also in Latin entries seems to be express or explicit representation of inflected forms even if redundant. But I admit, as I have above, that Latin abluvio does exactly what you propose for Finnish entries: it has no inflected-form glosses on the lemma page. --Dan Polansky 09:28, 15 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

We're pretty consistent in not adding them when they're the same as the lemma. Latin is the only exception I've ever seen. For instance in English, the verb play, you could have I play, you play, we play, they play. We don't list all of these. Mglovesfun (talk) 09:39, 15 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

"I play", "you play", "we play", "they play" in English, seen as forms of "play", seem to be not considered inflected forms. You have to look at inflected languages. --Dan Polansky 09:42, 15 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

Exactly and right now at least we don't list forms that are identical to the page name. Mglovesfun (talk) 09:44, 15 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

That is correct, for Latin anyway. --Dan Polansky 09:52, 15 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hi! I just answered your question of Sept 3rd on my User page. --Hekaheka 08:18, 19 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

FYI: I edited Wiktionary:About_Finnish#Part-of-speech. Please read it and you see why. Regards, --Hekaheka 09:17, 19 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hey, would you mind fixing this (particularly the etymology)? I know Finnish is different/awkward compared to English but having all those suffix categories on it is wrong. Why? Well, because valloilleen is for example clearly not a word that ends in -lle so it cannot be a word suffixed with it. perhaps type it as {{suffix|valloille|en}} iff that is correct, noting the rest of the etymology without use of the suffix template. 50 Xylophone Players talk 14:14, 30 November 2010 (UTC)Reply

This is one of my early creations. Now I'd think it's enough to say that it is an inflected form of the noun (deprecated template usage) valta. I protest against "awkward" - it's completely a question of point of view ;-) --Hekaheka 20:44, 30 November 2010 (UTC)Reply

Awkward might be an understatement. :) The etymology information that Hekaheka originally wrote was quite useful to me because I had a very hard time figuring out how a word could be suffixed with -illeen. I disagree with PalkiaX50's strict definition of suffix though, because words can have many suffixes stacked on the end, one on top of another. They are just suffixes that do double-duty as infixes. -lle should be categorized as a suffix because primarily it is one. Since valloilleen has -lle in it, it should show up under Category:Finnish words suffixed with -lle. It would be excessive to have another category for Finnish words infixed with -lle. It can be a suffix even though it's not the last one on the end of the word. ~heyzeuss

It would probably get quite complicated, if every Finnish plural was divided into its elements as thoroughly as valloilleen was in its earlier version. I might try to write usage notes under (deprecated template usage) sijamuoto which would explain general rules for forming the cases in Finnish. Note also that I added a noun section under the entry for valloilleen, which divides the word in two elements: (deprecated template usage) valloille + (deprecated template usage) -en. I don't think there should be a category for Finnish words suffixed with -lle. It would be similar to having an English category for words suffixed with -s and including all genitives and plurals into it. It would also be impractical. If it included all combinations of nouns and adjectives in elative singular and plural together with possessive and interrogative suffixes and degrees of comparison in case of adjectives, the category would potentially have millions of entries in it. --Hekaheka 11:48, 5 December 2010 (UTC)Reply

When you add a declension table using fi-decl-xxx, please change the fi-noun -template on the inflection line to infl|fi|noun. This is because otherwise the page will appear on the list Finnish nominals that lack declension type. Also note that proper nouns rarely have a plural, i.e. nopl=1 should be used in declension template (see e.g. (deprecated template usage) Pöytä, (deprecated template usage) Luoteisväylä). Note also that one should always be careful with consonant gradation ((deprecated template usage) Pöytä). --Hekaheka 00:13, 25 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

I think it's time to reinstate {{fi-noun}} because Category:Finnish nominals that lack declension type has nothing significant left in it. It just has vaaher (type sisar?) and an assortment of numerals. The other reason is that I'm tired of explaining all this to everyone else who expects us to stop using {{infl}}. We can finally detach the category from the template because the connection is no longer useful for finding undeclined words. We can do the same for {{fi-verb}}. It still has unconjugated words, but I went through all of them and categorized them manually, so that when the template is changed, they will remain in the category. ~ heyzeuss 03:44, 25 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

The category is empty right now, but who says there will not be new entries that lack declension in the future? If I recall right, we have some 35,000 Finnish nouns at the moment, but there are another 100,000 or so that we don't have. I cannot do the programming myself, but wouldn't it be possible to create a category for those Finnish entries that fulfil the condition that they are either nouns, adjectives, numerals or prononouns but do not have a declension -section? The category would be empty most of the time, at least as long as I am an active contributor, but to whom is that a problem? I don't mind reinstating fi-noun if that should be desirable, but it would be good if you could get the opinion of users Jyril and Frous as well, because they have done a lot of work with the structure of the Finnish language section. --Hekaheka 12:53, 25 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

The category is still useful, but the connection between it and fi-noun is not. It still has words in it, being fed by fi-noun and fi-adj, that have declension tables. If we disassociate the category from the template, all that will be left are nominals and vaaher. I don't think that it can be fed automatically, unless somebody wants to make a bot for that, but it can be fed fairly quickly by someone using the right search terms. AutoWikiBrowser is useful for that purpose. ~ heyzeuss 06:22, 27 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

I suppose that we could write something into {{fi-noun}} that checks the rest of the entry for the text fi-decl, but I'm not sure if that is possible. {{infl}} doesn't do it either, so that is just as useless for feeding the category. ~ heyzeuss 14:34, 27 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

Somebody does something like that for Greek nouns. I guess they have AWB look through Category:Greek nouns and scan for entries that don't have declension, and they add the category uhh let me find it... Category:Greek nouns lacking inflection. I'm sure somebody could do that for Finnish. — opiaterein — 14:41, 27 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

Reinstate {{fi-noun}}? A year or more has just been spent removing it! The decision to move from fi-xxx to {{infl}} had apparently been made before I started editing, and I've followed along. That decision is separate of whatever mechanism is used to identify entries without declension tables.

I don't believe Finnish has any need for its own fi-noun specialisation now it no longer has any Finnish-specific information in the inflection line, so I believe it did make sense to retire it. And presumably the original intent was that changing {{fi-noun}}->{{infl}} and adding fi-decl would always be done simultaneously, so the category "entries without declension tables" would be what it says it is. But if people have been adding declension tables without removing fi-noun, then it will have become inaccurate.

Really then the category is "entries that haven't had fi-xxx removed yet". And if converrsely anyone has taken out fi-xxx, but not put in a declension table, I'm not sure how we identify that anomaly. Something botty, no doubt.

But you suggest people do expect us to stop using {{infl}}. Who, and why? I don't see anything in the infl documentation that suggests languages have to have their own template. It says "if a significant language requires a complex call a large amount of the time ... the language should probably have its own templates." But Finnish no longer has any special requirements. --KJBracey 14:43, 27 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

{{infl}} was designed to be used for languages with very few entries etc. It's been recommended from the beginning that it not be used for major languages. {{fi-noun}} has the "nominal type", which I assumed was a "special requirement". Anyway, it's not like this would be difficult to change, especially if we use a category specifically for entries that lack declension. The whole change to {{fi-noun}} etc could be made in 2 days. — opiaterein — 14:52, 27 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

You can find out which entries lack a declension template by using AWB. First, generate a list of all pages that transclude {{fi-decl-table}}. Then save the list to a file. Then, generate a list of all pages in Category:Finnish nouns (or another). And then finally, using the filter option, subtract the list you made earlier from the list you currently have. That leaves all entries that don't transclude the template, which is just what you need!

So, given that option, I don't think it's really useful to have {{fi-noun}} and such add a category. Rather, I think it would be better to reinstate those templates for general use. AWB or a bot could easily do a search and replace {{infl|fi|noun}} with {{fi-noun}}. —CodeCat 15:03, 27 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

It seems that AWB has a hard limit of 25000 entries in one list. But there are more Finnish nouns than that. I have made a post at the AWB discussion page, maybe they will increase the limit in future versions. —CodeCat 15:38, 27 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

I use my bot to switch templates like this pretty frequently. Just give me the word when we have the lists. (I still think it'd be useful to have a category for Finnish like Category:Greek nouns lacking inflection, I'm pretty sure that could be done with AWB, right?) — opiaterein — 15:54, 27 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

I made three lists, but these pages are VERY long so you might experience some lag when you open them!

• User:CodeCat/Finnish nouns
• User:CodeCat/Finnish adjectives
• User:CodeCat/Finnish verbs

—CodeCat 23:52, 27 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

It is Category:Finnish nominals that lack declension type and Category:Finnish verbs that lack conjugation type. Can somebody please show me where consensus was reached regarding the use of {{infl}} for only certain languages? It would be nice just to have the reference handy. ~ heyzeuss 16:02, 27 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

I don't get why everybody's so in love with {{infl}}... There was no "consensus" because it was just designed to handle a few things so it wouldn't be necessary to have raw shit like ] at the bottoms of entries. It wasn't made to be the only head-line template we'd ever need. — opiaterein — 16:10, 27 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

Words on these lists contain infl|fi|partofspeech but not fi-decl-

• User:Heyzeuss/fi-noun-no-declension
• User:Heyzeuss/fi-adjective-no-declension

Oh, but those lists are full of form-of entries. Here's an explanation of my method for making declension tables. It helps to pare down the list a little more quickly. There are still 5000 words left that can be converted from the old system to the new one. User:Heyzeuss/NSK to KOTUS ~ heyzeuss 20:28, 28 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

What about the lists I made, are they useful at all? —CodeCat 21:06, 28 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

They are, but I can't make complete list of what transcludes transclude {{fi-decl-table}}. I can't use that special NoLimits plugin because I have no admin or bot rights. ~ heyzeuss 09:39, 29 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

OK, now I understand what you did. I thought that the list of nouns contained all Finnish nouns, and that you were making it so that I could do the filter myself. ~ heyzeuss 09:57, 29 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

Sorry for the late input. I used {{fi-noun}} in order to find the words that lack a proper inflection table. If the inflections are OK now, no need to use {{infl}} template. --Jyril 15:43, 31 March 2011 (UTC)Reply

I think that is the case now. I cleared out as many as I could find, and gave them their own tables, based on what links to appendices in Wiktionary:Finnish inflection types/nouns. ~ heyzeuss 06:53, 1 April 2011 (UTC)Reply

I have now updated all the header templates and added short instructions how to use them. Basic things such as sorting, changing default head text work now. Additional categories for verbs, pronouns, numbers, and suffixes can be added (less messy than adding categories directly). Please refer to the documentation for further info. --Jyril 07:38, 20 July 2011 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the update! ~ heyzeuss 06:39, 22 July 2011 (UTC)Reply

I tried to fix the conjugation of haitata, but I could not figure out how to do it. —Stephen ^(Talk) 12:45, 7 February 2011 (UTC)Reply

Ei haittaa (No problem)! and thanks for catching that. ~ heyzeuss 13:23, 7 February 2011 (UTC)Reply

The ID of the button to enable the new scripts is YRNewStuff-enable-button. --Yair rand 06:57, 11 April 2011 (UTC)Reply

thx ~ heyzeuss 07:03, 11 April 2011 (UTC)Reply

Hi, I stumbled upon armas and noticed the comparative & superlative were wrong; the correct forms are armaampi and armain -- not "armampi" and "armin". It seems you have edited many other words of the same type, and the forms are incorrect in those, too. I will alter some of them but I'm not very active on Wiktionary, so my progress won't be very fast. ¦ hyark digyik 12:14, 30 June 2011 (UTC)Reply

...Actually several have been edited (by other people) to include the correct form previously, but several still remain. ¦ hyark digyik 12:20, 30 June 2011 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for catching those. Looks like my script took too many letters off the end. I can't get to them right away, but I will fix them. ~ heyzeuss 13:59, 30 June 2011 (UTC)Reply

OK, I think I got them all now. ~ heyzeuss 15:57, 30 June 2011 (UTC)Reply

I can think of plenty of them! Of course, there are no universal rules. I won't try to give an exhaustive list here.

Some final parts:

• -mäki: Riihimäki:Riihimäellä. This often doesn't apply to smaller areas, like (here in Jyväskylä) Mäyrämäki:Mäyrämäessä
• -saari: Viitasaari:Viitasaarella. This is related to water bodies, of course. But! Kemiönsaari:Kemiönsaaressa, Vesisaari:Vesisaaressa
• -kangas: Applies to all kind of areas. Länsikangas:Länsikankaalla (in Rovaniemi)

Some places have both possibilities, too...

Countries (mostly island nations):

• Eurooppa: Kypros, Malta, Valko-Venäjä
• Afrikka: Komorit, Madagaskar, Norsunluurannikko, Seychellit
• Amerikat: Antigua ja Barbuda, Bahama, Barbados, Dominica, Grenada, Haiti (also -ssa, I think), Jamaika, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent ja Grenadiinit
• Aasia: Malediivit, Filippiinit
• Oseania: Fidži, Kiribati, Marshallinsaaret, Nauru, Samoa, Salomonsaaret, Tonga, Vanuatu

Often a resort, especially on an island, is inflected in external cases: Kanaria:Kanarialla, Teneriffa:Teneriffalla, Jalta:Jaltalla. I think most islands out of Finland get external cases. Also: mountain ranges: Himalajalla, Harzilla, Appalakeilla

Some further notable cases: Tampere:Tampereella, Karjalankannas:Karjalankannaksella, pohjoisnapa:pohjoisnavalla, Ahvenanmaa:Ahvenanmaalla (ok it's composed of islands)

Kotus has some information about this in Finnish . Annnd the names of municipalities. The inhabitants of a certain Finnish place are the ultimate "authority" to tell which cases to use. ¦ hyark digyik 18:34, 22 July 2011 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, that's pretty helpful. I will have to make this into an appendix, or add it to the Wikipedia article sometime. :) ~ heyzeuss 11:39, 23 July 2011 (UTC)Reply

Thanks a lot for adding inflection tables, you saved me from huge work! But please take a close look on your edits. It seems that you have assumed u as the default ending in palvelu-type nouns resulting in inflections such as *palvelot. Also, I noticed you have made some mistakes with compound nouns (for example, vesi-ending words with back vowel harmony!) Of course, there are plenty of mistakes of my own too... Too bad I don't know how to detect mistakes automatically... --Jyril 12:53, 26 July 2011 (UTC)Reply

You are welcome, and the templates and appendices created by you and Frous have been invaluable to me in learning Finnish. Hekaheka has been helpful answering my random questions. My Finnish courses are all complete now, which lasted about two years. If I had studied with more focus instead of editing wikis, I should have become more fluent by now. I'll try to make a list of entries with those kinds of errors with autowikibrowser, otherwise I'll have to search a dump with a regular expression. -Heyzeuss

Only two years? I must confess I am a bit impressed of your Finnish inflection skills. :) I am sure editing Wiktionary helps in getting familiar with the different inflections. Vast majority of your edits seems to be perfectly OK. We just have to be very careful not to propagate errors, as this website seems to be the source of many online dictionaries. --Jyril 18:46, 30 July 2011 (UTC)Reply

I think I found all of the faulty vesi and palvelu type words. ~ heyzeuss 02:56, 31 July 2011 (UTC)Reply

I would like to hear your opinion on the formatting of Finnish entries for word forms made up with clitics and suffixes, presented here. --Hekaheka 17:14, 29 August 2011 (UTC)Reply

...is no longer needed. Therefore, you do not need to add it to pages. -- Liliana • 13:19, 17 November 2011 (UTC)Reply

Sweet, thanks. It's nice to not have to kludge anymore, so I'll put away my roll of duct tape. One of us can remove it from the list of templates at the bottom of the edit page. BTW, totally off topic, are you still running Autoformat? Is it just fixing German entries? ~ heyzeuss 13:30, 17 November 2011 (UTC)Reply

I'm currently busy removing the count page template from all pages, which should take one or two weeks. After that, I'll fire up AutoFormat again and possibly do some more German verbs. -- Liliana • 13:35, 17 November 2011 (UTC)Reply

Our Finnish entries have some issues like puctuation, bullets, and depreciated PoS templates that might be well suited to Autoformat. ~ heyzeuss 15:25, 17 November 2011 (UTC)Reply

Hi there. German nouns begin with a capital letter. Cheers. SemperBlotto 22:35, 29 November 2011 (UTC)Reply

While most of the words on your list are valid Finnish words or word forms, some are not:

1. myrrhä is probably a misspelling of myrrha
2. Rumiko appears to be Japanese given name
3. prielipas appears to be Lithuanian
4. hesa is capitalized: Hesa
5. hesari is capitalized: Hesari
6. thanh appears to be Vietnamese
7. mitripela appears to be Bislama
8. I've never heard taht ei voi mitään ("can't do anything) would be a term for thumbless mitt
9. tehdä Räiköset is spelled tehdä Räikköset, but it has no set meaning. It has been used in Finnish newspaper of many different things that Kimi Räikkönen has done
10. I did not find any meaningful usage for tehdä Nykäset

Cheers, --Hekaheka (talk) 12:56, 26 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

Thanks. :) ~ heyzeuss 21:47, 26 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

Ta-da!!! See also Tea room, I have a little task for the community. --Hekaheka (talk) 12:40, 25 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

Voi hyvänen aika, sä teet sen. Kiitos hirveästi! ~ heyzeuss 09:38, 29 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

Terve,
you had created {{R:Hakkinen 2004}} some time ago for Nykysuomen etymologinen sanakirja, but it turns out we also had an older version of the same book at {{R:Hakkinen 2005}}. I've merged the two as {{R:fi:NSES}}. The old templates redirect to the new one though, so feel free to keep using whichever.

I suspect there could be minor differences between the '04 and '05 issues, but probably nothing major. --Tropylium (talk) 23:28, 17 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Thank you for clearing that up. ( ̑ ー ̑ ) ~ heyzeuss 03:31, 18 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Hi, Would you like to update this page: User:Heyzeuss/fi-noun-no-declension and the corresponding page for adjectives? I could then add declension tables to where they are still missing. --Hekaheka (talk) 09:00, 9 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

This is a list of words that still contained the old template: infl|fi|noun, but not the newer template fi-decl. I need to delete the list because I had already gone through the list and replaced one template for the other, for each entry. I'll also delete the corresponding list of adjectives. There are still of course entries for nominals without any declension table, but I don't have a list of those. ~ heyzeuss 09:54, 9 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Influencer @_heyzeuss on all platforms 2600:1700:2DB1:C2F0:48FB:D9BD:1B53:97A4 02:38, 14 October 2022 (UTC)Reply