User talk:Sarri.greek/2020

Sarri.greek ♫

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Could you please {{ping|Sarri.greek}} because this page does not alert. Thank you!

Happy New Year

So sorry - I really should have said something to you earlier. I took a couple of days off after new year and somehow lying in in the morning is habit forming. I will try to get back into the groove! Meanwhile, you had definite ideas about how {{el-verb}} should be - would you like to have a go at it? — Saltmarsh. 17:54, 14 January 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Saltmarsh! Hope your year began happily and the children enjoyed their gifts! I've been lazy all this time, but started practicing my piano again. -also doing corrections at el.wikt: lots of minor things, and blocking intruders-. I moved this talk page at .../2020, if that is ok. (makes it easier for me to make permanent links)

About {{el-verb}}! I forgot what the problem was: A.. yes I remember now: The placing of the parenthesis, and how long the expressions for the terms will be). I think, the shorter the better. And the parenthesis may always go to the end. (my trials) The idea is:

αγαπάω • (agapao) / secondformifexists^{e.g. αγαπώ} type= here if needed^{impersonal etc} (past: xxx • passive: xxxx • p.past: xxx • ppp: xxxμένος •)

and the passives:

αγαπιέμαι • (agapiemai) passive (past: xxx • ppp: xxxμένος • see active: xxxx •)

- imperfect is the first tense

- the toolotips of the tenses do not have to say if it is active or passive: the |type= is covering that.

- possibilities of doubles for everything, but do not worry, it does not occur often. And I would make sure that I avoid too many details.

This simpler el:Πρότυπο:el-ρήμα has no transliterations, and no parenthesis. Every form was being added as needed: one by one. There has never been an overall plan. The links for the terms are not blue (e.g. el:παίζω).

But please, do not bother yourself too much: You have been doing such an exciting work with the verbs, like the Appendix:Greek verbs/Α1! I promise to go on with replacing old templates from Category:Greek verb inflection-table templates, and add some new ones (my workpage: User:Sarri.greek/verbs)

The categorization of participles at {{el-part}} is another thing that would be nice to tackle later this year. I do not edit any of them for the moment, just in case there are changes.

Happy 2020, boss!!! sarri.greek (talk) 19:54, 14 January 2020 (UTC)Reply

And the same to you. I guess we have to leave to each editor, I was really only anxious that the line didn't grow to cover two. — Saltmarsh. 07:27, 15 January 2020 (UTC)Reply

Hello! I can only find these two websites that mention μυροβλύζω:

• http://hellenicglotta.blogspot.com/2011/03/blog-post_11.html
• http://www.antinews.gr/action.read/antimagazine/Περαστικά-στον-Μικρό-Οδυσσέα/6.83113

If you think it should be deleted please do 92.184.97.27 09:23, 30 January 2020 (UTC)Reply

Dear guest 92.184.97.27. About this verb, related to μύρο and this edit where I omit it. It is true, that it is also found in many other online news-articles concerning christian icons giving w:Oil of Saints. I presume it is a neo‑construction of μύρο + ancient βλύζω under the infulence of αναβλύζω (both ancient and modern). Constructions like this are frequently copied and recopied at blogs and online news. I am not sure whether it should be included, because there is no dictionary that I can find including it yet. Probably it will be stabilised in some years from now. I expect to see it in a less ephemeral source in the near future.

The existant verb that I can find in a dictionary is the 12th century μυροβλυτῶ ({{R:Dimitrakos 1964}}) at Πονημάτιον by w:Eustathius of Thessalonica. Thank you for your observation. sarri.greek (talk) 06:53, 31 January 2020 (UTC)Reply

You ask "Should all the infinitives at 'Perfect tenses' be linked too -the repetitions-?" There used to be guidance, on Wikipedia, that once a term had been linked on a page, any repetitions should be left unlinked. If I remember this was due to the computing "overheads" (I assume "processor time"). I am not sure if the rule applies here. In an inflection table I tended to leave repetitions of a term unlinked when they were close together, but felt that for a repetition a distance away from the first should be linked.
In short: it's really only a matter of personal preference. Do it the way which you think best. — Saltmarsh. 05:41, 18 February 2020 (UTC)Reply

Thank you @Saltmarsh, I understand: I will check the infinitives that are at a distance from each other. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 08:31, 18 February 2020 (UTC)Reply

Thinking about it now, there must be 50plus links in the average act/pass table. I think a few more to complete things won't make much difference. — Saltmarsh. 09:36, 18 February 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Saltmarsh Ok, yes, and the participle's link is repeated anyway. So: I'll link them all. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 07:08, 19 February 2020 (UTC)Reply

Greetings — Q. "Is the tooltip any better for example 1 αγαπώ? -I cannot remember what εσ3 is for."

Oh dear - I forget - so much information lost to posterity!

1. Do you mean: is αγαπώ/αγαπάω better than the original γαμώ? You obviously have infinitely more feeling for a good example than me. So I'm sure that you are right.

2. εσ3 - I'm not sure where I got those infix patterns from. If you are wondering if it is unused I can set up a trap to find out? Please say. It will be an if statement assigning a category - which will be triggered when someone views the verb (that might take a few years) or perhaps a week or so for the "system" to notice it (you'll be aware that assigning a category in a template doesn't necessarily take effect straight away.

Anyway - I hope you are well. — Saltmarsh. 15:28, 7 March 2020 (UTC)Reply

Hello @Saltmarsh! Corona-self-quarantined: lots of time for wiktionary!

2_ never mind. I am curious to learn your methods, but never mind: something will come up.

1_ I meant, how does this Template:tooltip work with links?... e.g. at Template:el-conjug-sub5/Table we have

my test: ] which gives: ➤

previously {{tooltip|αγαπάω, αγαπώ|]}} which gives: ➤ but for some reason, I see only 'αγαπώ'. Is it my stupid browser? ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 16:22, 7 March 2020 (UTC)Reply

2_ search shows that it is not used yet. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 16:24, 7 March 2020 (UTC)Reply

Corona-self-quarantined, so sorry - I've emailed you.

1. You discovered how to get Tooltip to link to a single page, while showing something else! I failed at that. I shall have to try and remember how you did it! No you're not stupid - it's just the way that Tooltip works.

2. Search term=insource:εσ3 you're outpacing me, I didn't know how to do that either. I suffer because I never RTFM !

I can retire happy, meanwhile on with verbs appendixes! — Saltmarsh. 07:02, 8 March 2020 (UTC)Reply

Good morning! I think that is OK, I was only unsure about the capitalisation which I now this is correct. All the flummery of the British courts is appalling, but then I'm no respecter of persons! (flummery: pretentious and useless court dress). I hope that you are keeing your chin up — Saltmarsh. 06:16, 13 March 2020 (UTC)Reply

New template - superb! — Saltmarsh. 12:48, 13 March 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Saltmarsh I like the 'your ... ' british -thank you for new word: fummery. I think all civilizations have such expressions. We say αξιότιμος for judges, but also for any man.

New template needs an Active only version now. Thank you for confirming. They ARE anarchic, these verbs. I begin fearing that each Category will have too few members.

Self-restricted, Day 2, your ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 17:18, 13 March 2020 (UTC)Reply

Hello — I note that the declension

΄ωρ ΄ορος ΄ορα ΄ωρ ΄ορες όρων ΄ορες ΄ορες

on el:wikt has the vocative plural as 'ορ' not 'ωρ'

Please will you arbitrate. It was our comrade Flyax who created the original en:wikt template.

Thanks, — Saltmarsh. 15:06, 23 March 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Saltmarsh, the voc. is -ορ (διδάκτωρ, {{el-nM-ωρ-ορες-2b}}. It is katharevousa, exactly like the ancient declension (ἀλέκτωρ). I have also checked it at Table144 of the Vostantzoglou dictionary of Kath/Demotic ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 04:31, 24 March 2020 (UTC)Reply

Thank you for continuing with the verbs inspite of all your work on Βικιλεξικό. This is by way of an apology for my absence, I have a a trapped nerve in my neck which is leading to only short sessions here (like lumbago/οσφυαλγία can lead to "referred pain" in the leg - is that "αναφερόμενος πόνος" in Greek), so I have pain in the hand and arm. Anyway there's lots to do in the garden tomatoes, cucumbers, beans, courgettes, etc) which don't agravate the problem! - keep well — Saltmarsh. 10:46, 29 April 2020 (UTC)Reply

! @Saltmarsh, περαστικά! I shall try to add verbs daily: mainly the ones which differ, or, are irregular. Frankly, it will take some years to do all 4.000 of them: and yes! they ARE anarchic. At el.wikt, there is so much to be done, and no editors to do it. My apprenticeship under you, has taught me so much.

Today, was our first day without lockdown measures. Enjoy your gardening! Love, ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 18:23, 4 May 2020 (UTC)Reply

Thank you - our govt is dithering - heaven help us! Keep well, keep safe — Saltmarsh. 06:29, 5 May 2020 (UTC)Reply

Σας συμπαθώ πάρα πολύ.

Καλησπέρα σας. Εγώ είμαι ο Ξερόλας. Ο "γνωστός" φραγμένος χρήστης. Σας στέλνω αυτό το μήνυμα για να σας παρακαλέσω να με δεχθείτε και πάλι στο Βικιλεξικό (με νέο λογαριασμό αυτή τη φορά). Εάν μου δώσετε άλλη μία ευκαιρία να είστε σίγουρη πως θα βοηθήσω σε μεγάλο βαθμό το εγχείρημα μας. Τι λέτε; Θα με αφήσετε να ξεκινήσω μία νέα αρχή; --Ξερόλας (talk) 11:53, 18 May 2020 (UTC)Reply

Αναμένω την απάντηση σας. --Ξερόλας (talk) 12:04, 18 May 2020 (UTC)Reply

Καμία ανταπόκριση προς το παρόν. Πλήρης απογοήτευση. --Ξερόλας (talk) 12:15, 18 May 2020 (UTC)Reply

Θα περιμένω για άλλη μισή ώρα. Μετά... --Ξερόλας (talk) 12:57, 18 May 2020 (UTC)Reply

Μετά ξέρεις τι θα γίνει... --Ξερόλας (talk) 13:05, 18 May 2020 (UTC)Reply

Η μισή ώρα πέρασε. --Ξερόλας (talk) 13:28, 18 May 2020 (UTC)Reply

Σας παρακαλώ διαβάστε με προσοχή ολόκληρο το παρακάτω μήνυμα:

@Sarri.greek εάν δεν με αφήσεις να συνεισφέρω εκ νέου στο Βικιλεξικό και δεν με κάνεις διαχειριστή δεν θα αφήσω τίποτα όρθιο. Αυτές τις ημέρες σκέφτομαι να κάνω κάτι που δεν θα σου αρέσει καθόλου (θα βανδαλίζω με διαφορετικές ip μέχρι να βαρεθείς να με φράζεις συνεχώς). Ήδη έχω ξεκινήσει να κάνω μερικούς μικρούς βανδαλισμούς. Δεν έχετε δει ακόμη τίποτα. Αγαπητή Κατερίνα εάν με αφήσεις να φτιάξω νέο λογαριασμό στο Βικιλεξικό και εάν με κάνεις διαχειριστή σου υπόσχομαι ότι θα κάνω ότι μπορώ για να βελτιώσω και να εμπλουτίσω το εγχείρημα. Αλήθεια σου λέω. Εάν όμως αναιρέσεις το μήνυμα που σου στέλνω και απορρίψεις το αίτημα μου θα με αναγκάσεις να φερθώ αρκετά σκληρά. Ξανασκέψου το και έλα να το συζητήσουμε το θέμα. Ευχαριστώ. --Ξερόλας (talk) 19:20, 19 May 2020 (UTC)Reply

Dear @Ξερόλας, since we are at en.wiktionary, we write in english. You were blocked by another administrator. You should report to him. Also, if you wish to be unblocked, a threat to 'ruin the place' is not a helpufl statement. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 06:37, 20 May 2020 (UTC)Reply

Δεν γνωρίζω αγγλικά. --Ξερόλας (talk) 09:35, 20 May 2020 (UTC)Reply

ΥΓ. @Sarri.greek Θα παρακαλούσα να σβηστεί αυτή εδώ η αναθεώρηση της σελίδας μαζί με το όνομα χρήστη. Ευχαριστώ --Ξερόλας (talk) 09:44, 20 May 2020 (UTC)Reply

Good morning, I hope that all is well with you — we survive! I write to ask about ανθόκηπος, where you changed the declension to give a proparoxytone gen.pl. Μπαμπι. gives it as paroxytone (and Google makes this form 20 times more common). Can I revert it? Or is there something subtle here that I'm ignorant of? — Saltmarsh. 05:42, 19 May 2020 (UTC)Reply

Dear @Saltmarsh! Yes, I' m well, not going out much. Not only verbs are anarchic, but nouns too. Compounds like this one tend to have persistent accent in demotic. The ανθοκήπων is a bit katharevousa. (Babi likes it). Yes, do revert it if you find it in google as more common. I will add it as note at el.wikt too. Thank you ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 06:27, 20 May 2020 (UTC)Reply

Dear Sarri — I meant to ref the resultant edits, hoping thant you were happy - or inviting you to edit as necessary! — Saltmarsh. 05:49, 23 May 2020 (UTC)Reply

Καλησπέρα κυρία Sarri. Συμφωνώ με ό,τι λέτε στη σελίδα συζήτησής μου, στο Βικιλεξικό.

Σας απαντώ εδώ διότι... είμαι φραγμένος επ' αόριστον στο ΒΛ. Κάτι σαν... εκφοβιστική ενέργεια είδα ότι συνέβη από κάποιον που χρησιμοποίησε την IP μου. Κι έτσι, αν και γραφειοκράτης, δεν μπορώ να κάνω τίποτα! :-) Βικιφιλικά, --Lou (talk) 20:10, 31 May 2020 (UTC)Reply

Sorry Lou, I have revereted this horrible misclick. Πώ πω @Lou Λυπάμαι γι' αυτό το λάθος. Επί πλέον ήμουν άρρωστη. Βεβαίως και το αναίρεσα το misclick-, -με ειδοποιήσe o Chalk19 αλλιώς δεν θα το είχα πάρει χαμπάρι. Συγγνώμη ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 04:24, 17 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Hi — I think I'm back!
I would like to enable {{el-verb}} to handle absent forms with for example past — (that's an em dash). At present only passive allows this but I would suggest that all should. Currently those others print a linked hyphen (eg past -) which shouldn't happen. I wouldn't intend that it should be used all the time - just when wanted.

What do you think? — Saltmarsh. 10:33, 1 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Saltmarsh! Hi! I am back too. An my med-exam was good, so, I only need a 3-month treatment, and I will be fine.

Of course a dash may be created for past. But also, it is covered by parameter |pres-imp found only in the present and imperfect tenses ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 04:43, 17 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Please to hear that your exam is done, good luck with the treatment. I started looking at this template and decided that I would rather leave it as it is! — Saltmarsh. 04:57, 17 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Saltmarsh, good morning!. I added blanks at {{el-verb}} for all pasts. The only thing is: when a verb starts as passive (the deponents), the next 'past' is just 'past', not p-past. But as the whole thing is in the passive, I hope this will be excused. Keep your fingers crossed! I hope your back is better. Your ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 03:04, 21 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for all your work with verbs and their templates - and my back, well it's a lot better than it was! — Saltmarsh. 04:21, 21 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Good morning! I hope that you are well.
I have just noted that Βικι uses el:Πρότυπο:el-κλίση-'όνομα' (inflecting -α) whereas here at Wiki we use {{el-nN-μα-ματα-3b}} (inflecting -μα). I have just been creating as a separate lemma ανθόγαλα — are there many other Greek neuter nouns ending in -α rather than -μα? — Saltmarsh. 06:52, 15 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

I suppose it would be more succinct of me to have said — how many neuter nouns in -α do not have the α preceded by a μ ? — Saltmarsh. 07:50, 15 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

I had an idea, which seems to have worked. By listing "Συνδέσεις προς εδώ" at el:Πρότυπο:el-κλίση-'όνομα' and manipulating the results I have:

el:ανθόγαλα, el:αφρόγαλα, el:ξινόγαλα, el:ορόγαλα, el:τυρόγαλα.

So it is worth creating a template. If there are any others they can be sorted later. — Saltmarsh. 08:46, 16 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Done! — Saltmarsh. 04:57, 17 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Saltmarsh mmm I have not dealt with neuters yet. And I have not noticed that grammars of modern greek refer to -μα rather than -α. Thank you for bringing my attention to it.

• 1) γάλα genitive γάλακτος (also informal γάλατος referring to a can of milk) is irregular. Also its compounds. Just a note would be sufficient. Do not bother with a new Template...-I think-
• 2) -μα or -α? Νο, I cannot find -α neuters (plural -ατα) which do not end in -μα. The table el:Template:el-κλίση-'όνομα' (cf Cat 'όνομα' proparoxytones, Cat 'κύμα' -paroxytones) mark in pink colour the ending, not the etymological analysis: + suffix -μα. It is ending versus suffix. Actually, the correct thing would be to mark NOTHING, because in ancient greek these neuters have ZERO ending (root ονοματ- where the last τ is dropped). But do not bother yourself with the notion that the -μα Template should be changed. It is not wrong. It is just a different view. I have to study more this thing, because I cannot give you a valid answer at the moment. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 05:00, 17 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Saltmarsh, I have asked our philologist and beuraucrat, Mr Svlioras about this matter. The -μα, -ιμο grouping, he tells me, is preferred as fascilitating memory. It is just a handy style of grouping. He now helps to correct these pink endings -which have been an old tradition at el.wikt-, which should not worry you: these 'should' be correct etymologically, regardless of how the group is called. Thank you both, gentlemen! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 06:40, 17 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Dentonius (talk) 13:27, 29 August 2020 (UTC): Thanks for correcting my conjugation category for καλλιεργώ, @Sarri.greek. At first, I thought it was supposed to be the same as the verb being conjugated. (Now I know it isn't). So, just to confirm, the "cat" parameter is always the same as the example verb used in the Wiktionary:Greek_verb_inflection-table_templates?Reply

Hello, @Dentonius. Very nicely done. Difficult to determine the |cat= for verbs at the moment. I always consult {{R:Jordanidou 2004}} (found here). Still: too many categories are missing. My job here is to do verb conjugations. Our administrator for Greek, Saltmarsh, created some brand new Templates for verbs (active+passive together), and their application will take some time! You may also leave |cat= empty, and they will be categorized in time. The easiest method is to copy from a similar verb. Please forgive me for the many many undone examples.

I shall do some alterations for words Λευκαδίτης = Leucadian & λευκαδίτικος = relevant to Leucas/Lefkada or Leucadians. The adjective with lowercase, unlike English such adjectives. I hope you will not mind.

PS at Discussion pages, you may click the litte + button at the top of the page. Very nice job Dentonius! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 13:45, 29 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

Dentonius (talk) 14:04, 29 August 2020 (UTC): Thanks again, @Sarri.greek. Change any and everything; I don't mind :-) As long as we have a comprehensive Greek dictionary at the end of the day, I'm happy. How did you get Λευκαδίτικος to redirect to λευκαδίτικος? That was interesting. Can any user do that or just admins? In general, are adjectives of nationality lowercase in Greek?Reply

@Dentonius _1 Yes, anyone can move a page, but cannot have the source deleted in the same time: it stays there, with

#REDIRECT ]

I just changed the Inital redirect to Λευκαδίτης as λευκαδίτικος

_2. yes, uppercase words are fewer in Modern Greek than in English, or Ancient Greek (where the tradition is that all derivatives of Proper nouns retain their capital). Names of languages are also written with lowercase initial consonant (although some people are using the English manner nowadays, as a personal style). ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 14:14, 29 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

Dentonius (talk) 08:46, 31 August 2020 (UTC): Hi, @Sarri.greek. How are you today? You reverted the links in the example sentence in έθιμο. I assume you're about to do so for the other changes I made. But why? It seems to be common practice for other languages (e.g., Russian). It's also very useful: We can see which words aren't in the Greek dictionary and others who are non-native speakers of Greek can immediately get clarification about a word without having to copy and paste it back into the search field. Can we leave the links in the example sentences, please?Reply

@Dentonius, I am now writing a note at your page...‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 08:49, 31 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

Re: "fi yuh edits, irie" (<- Sarri) Wah, @Sarri.greek? Yuh a chat Patwa now? A weh yuh a seh. :-) Big up yuhself ;-) - Dentonius (talk) 13:37, 6 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

I love it! @Dentonius. Is there a Category:Jamaican Creole phrasebook! would be irie.

PS the greek pronunciation ipa at el.wiktionary uses a weird and a weird (which makes our lives difficult, but serves no purpose, not really). Here, we use the normal . ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 13:52, 6 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Noted. I'll try to keep it in mind. As for, the JC phrasebook, I'll get around to it eventually. I'll add it to my to-do list :-) Thanks for the suggestion. - Dentonius (talk) 13:55, 6 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

As you see, yot is between iota and kappa, not elsewhere, and several archaic letters are absent.

www.webtopos.gr/eng/languages/greek/alphabet/chart1.htm

both partially omits and wrongly sorts archaic letters, please fix table, since it should be corrected according to

www.unicode.org/Public/UCA/latest/allkeys.txt

*GREEK*LETTER* wildcard

as follows: Αα Alpha Ββ Beta Γγ Gamma Δδ Delta Εε Epsilon ϜͶϝͷ Digamma Ϛϛ Stigma Ζζ Zeta Ͱͱ Heta Ηη Eta Θθ Theta Ιι℩ Iota Ϳϳ Yot Κκ Kappa Λλ Lamda Μμ Mu Νν Nu Ξξ Xi Οο Omicron Ππ Pi Ϻϻ San ϘϞϙϟ Koppa Ρρ Rho Σσς Sigma Ττ Tau Υυ Upsilon Φφ Phi Χχ Chi Ψψ Psi Ωω Omega ͲϠͳϡ Sampi Ϸϸ Sho 2A0B:7280:300:0:1C00:C7FF:FE00:2326 07:58, 16 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Absent without leave — @Sarri.greek — we're off to Kent hoping that restrictions don't restrict us too much, and that Johnson/Cummins don't send us home! Back Saturday — Saltmarsh. 08:52, 20 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Thank goodness you're here. Half of the additions you made to the conjugation were just beyond me. Wow. Your language has so many forms! :-D - Dentonius (talk) 12:46, 26 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Dentonius, yes, some of them are tricky. Saltmarsh, calls them anarchic verbs. I am working on them... Whenever you need a verb, just call me: I have lists of groups, so, I know which Template to use. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 15:56, 28 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Wah gwaan, Katerina? :-) How's your Sunday going? I like your ux better. But I'm just curious, why did you change mine? Was the example faulty, "controversial", or was there some other reason? Re:

Στις ημέρες μας, βεβαίως, η μάσκα δεν συνιστά αντικείμενο, αλλά μέσον προστασίας.

Stis iméres mas, vevaíos, i máska den synistá antikeímeno, allá méson prostasías.

Nowadays, of course, the mask isn't just an object, but a means of protection.

-- Dentonius (talk) 10:14, 27 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Oh no, it was not wrong @Dentonius. Ι just felt it was not characteristic enough. uxes are usually very short and useful to a learner. Need to show the syntax, the meaning, or standard expressions. I guess that you find examples at the internet. But they are not always the ideal ux, even if they are correct. My problem is, that i can think of very characteristic examples, but I have trouble translating them. My English is not good enough. I miss the small nuances. In en.wikt, I only do ipa, inflections and related words. I never do new lemmata or anything that needs translation. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 16:05, 28 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Dentonius, I am moving it from 'Requested category':
θυσία (thysía, “sacrifice”) -- I'm neither sure of the definition nor the lemma form. / OK now.

Δεν έχει αν κάθε φορά λες τα ίδια πράγματα.. Hi, @Sarri.greek. I saw this sentence in my notes. I'm not sure where I got it from but is the sentence correct and does the expression mean something like "He doesn't regret it if he keeps saying the same things." ? -- Dentonius (talk) 07:58, 3 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

_1. your phrase makes sense with σημασία: literally: It has no sense if every time you say the same things = It does not matter

_2. Although *θυμασία is totally unknown to me I checked it at google, and apparently it is a bad transliteration of scanned pages of very old manuscipts, and most of the time it is the ancient feminine 'θαυμασία' of θαυμάσιος (thaumásios, “wonderful”) ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 08:07, 3 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Erutuon, Benwing2 I know you have better things to do, I know it is childish, but here it is:
Small wiktionaries have NO help for Lua and programming. I started a learning page for small wiktionaries. Could you possibly take a quick look and tell me to give up if it is vain? or, how to go about it.
When I became admin at el.wikt I found modules, back from 2010-15 by admins who knew Lua, but are inactive for some time. I had to continue. Not knowing a thing, except <br> <tr> <td> <dl>... I turned to the meta people for help, but there was none. You have both helped me in the past, especially Erutuon, who has saved me many times.
The en.wikt modules are SO complicated, that it is impossible to follow their example.
Small wiktionaries are condemned to html nothingness. Thank you. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 15:20, 5 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

Hi, Katerina. How are you? Eventually I'm going to set up a place for myself in the Greek Wiktionary. My main purpose there would just be to contribute Jamaican Creole (unless somebody wanted my input for something like English). Can you give me a heads-up about how I would go about contributing Jamaican Creole material there? What would be the appropriate name for "Jamaican Creole" there? On the German Wiktionary, for example, they have a five citation rule, where every entry needs to be backed up by five solid quotations. Do you have something like that where you are? What are the customs? What's important on Greek Wiktionary? Looking forward to hearing from you. -- Dentonius (my politics | talk) 09:54, 8 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Dentonius, sorry for seeing this so late -we have talked in the meantime-. This Talkpage/2020 does not send me automatic notice, and I did not see your note. Happy Sunday. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 13:39, 11 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

Hi, Katerina. :-) Someone's having fun with Lua over yonder ;-) -- Dentonius (my politics | talk) 06:15, 11 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

Hi @Sarri.greek,

How are you? I had an issue here recently and I've decided its better to restrict my contributions to Jamaican Creole and, occasionally, English. I'll still be active on Greek Wiktionary. But my contributions to this dictionary will mainly be for my dialect. It was fun participating in the Greek section. :-) But I'm afraid I don't want to take the risk any more as there are people watching my work closely now looking for any excuse to take punitive actions. -- Dentonius (my politics | talk) 06:37, 13 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Sarri.greek I hope that you don't mind, I've moved this discussion here since it makes it easier to link things. And I hope that I have got things straight, please forgive me if I've misread something which you have written.
I've list nouns using {{el-nM-ας-ες-2b}} at User:Saltmarsh/Sandbox and split them as seemed appropriate. Do you spot anything that I have missed. My gender politics are probably out of date, παρενδυσίας (parendysías, “transvestite”) is listed by Bambi as masculine - can I assume that they are exclusively male? Although it would be easier not to, I think it sensible (for those who come later) to split off all -ίας words into 2 new sets. Leaving the -ας words where they are — Saltmarsh. 18:37, 15 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

————

Good morning @Sarri.greek — I have modified Wiktionary:Greek noun inflection-table templates to show the proposed changes.

1. There is a "-ιας" section under "masculine nouns"

2. {{el-nM-ιας-ηδες-2a}} these nouns are proparoxytone and not paroxytone, it needs renaming to {{el-nM-ιας-ηδες-3a}} only 4 nouns are involved.

3. The 2 new templates will need 2 typical nouns which follow those paradigms — are "γαλαξίας" and "επιχειρηματίας" satisfactory?

4. {{el-nM-ιας-ιες-2b}} will be the same as {{el-nM-ας-ες-2b}} — the duplication is intended to keep all the -ιας nouns together

Does that all seem OK? — Saltmarsh. 06:36, 16 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

Reply.Sarri:
How nice your work is, @Saltmarsh.

• Template:el-nM-ας-ες-2b is fine. παρενδυσίας (rare learned word): I don't know. Yes, I would say it also for fem. But let's stick to the dictionary.
• _1&4. -ίας MF. I think, the way to do it, is like βουλευτής, with a note. There is no special treatment for common (MF) nouns template-wise. They are all done with a note. Their marking comes from the headwordline. So, I think επιχειρηματίας.words should be treated in the same way, individually, with a note?
  There are many common gender nouns and the reason we treat them separately in el.wikt (like here) is the presence of the article which demands a much more detailed categorization. (Also, for surnames (masc) have special declensions).
  
• _2. {{el-nM-ιας-ηδες-3a}} involves more words = Cat γυαλάκιας@el

Thank you @Sarri.greek cat renamed to Category:Greek nouns declining like 'γυαλάκιας' to match el and linked at bot end. It would be nice to link alignable categories — Saltmarsh. 09:59, 16 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Sarri.greek it's me again. A few years back I assigned αετιδέας (sourced from Bambi an alternative to αετιδεύς), -έα, -έες, -εών, perhaps with insufficient thought. Do you think that the plural should be αετιδείς. — Saltmarsh. 11:58, 16 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Saltmarsh ancient = βασιλεύς ἀετιδεύς = modern. βασιλέας αετιδέας -έα, -έα, -έα!. Plural: -είς,- έων,-είς,-είς. For some arcahic there may be notes for voc.singular. in -εύ! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 12:41, 16 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

Hi @Sarri.greek,

In general, if you want me to check sentences or translate stuff, don't hesitate to ask. I'm here :-) -- Dentonius (my politics | talk) 15:22, 18 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Sarri.greek ακρογωνιαίος is one of the model pages, in this case for terms which are chiefly found in expressions. Responding to a request I changed the previous text:

1. (used chiefly in):

ακρογωνιαίος λίθος ― akrogoniaíos líthos ― cornerstone, quoin

to what you see in the current entry. Is "fundamental" a reasonable translation, or do you think that it was better before the latest change? — Saltmarsh. 14:55, 3 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Saltmarsh, yes, fundamental is the translation of the synonym θεμελιώδης. But the word is used also literaly by architects: it is exactly the cornerstone, the meeting point of two walls. (as in DSMG). The expression is: ακρογωνιαίος λίθος. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 15:07, 3 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Sarri.greek thanks for the quick response - hmmm... I'm not sure how to reword the entry - any ideas? — Saltmarsh. 15:12, 3 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Saltmarsh, I have added the usual material from DSMG. Both literal and figuative senses occur as in the expression. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 15:32, 3 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Sarri.greek Ευχαριστώ — Saltmarsh. 15:33, 3 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

See Module:category tree/poscatboiler/data/lang-specific/el. I converted all the 1st-conjugation categories so that they have proper breadcrumbs at the top and fit into a unified category scheme. The description text comes from the existing text you put into the categories. Can you help fill out the remaining category descriptions? There is an explanatory comment in the module explaining how to enter new verb groups and "like-verb" categories. I didn't convert the 2nd-conjugation categories because their text isn't structured in the same fashion as the 1st-conjugation categories, and there are lots more categories that need to be created. Here's the full list:

• Category:Greek verbs conjugating like 'βάλλω'
• Category:Greek verbs conjugating like 'φέρω'
• Category:Greek verbs conjugating like 'δέχομαι'
• Category:Greek verb conjugation group 'κρατάω-κρατώ'
• Category:Greek verb conjugation group 'βάλλω'
• Category:Greek verb conjugation group 'καθιστώ'
• Category:Greek verbs conjugating like 'αποδεικνύω'
• Category:Greek verbs conjugating like 'σπάω'
• Category:Greek verb conjugation group 'δέρνω'
• Category:Greek verb conjugation group 'κρίνω'
• Category:Greek verb conjugation group 'φέρω'
• Category:Greek verbs conjugating like 'βοηθάω-βοηθώ'
• Category:Greek verbs conjugating like 'καταστέλλω'
• Category:Greek verbs conjugating like 'κερνάω-κερνώ'
• Category:Greek verbs conjugating like 'οδηγώ'
• Category:Greek verbs conjugating like 'συναχώνομαι'
• Category:Greek verbs conjugating like 'τείνω'
• Category:Greek verb conjugation group 'άζω, ίζω'
• Category:Greek verb conjugation group 'δέχομαι'
• Category:Greek verb conjugation group 'ελέγχω'
• Category:Greek verb conjugation group 'κείμαι'
• Category:Greek verb conjugation group 'ορίζω'
• Category:Greek verb conjugation group 'πίνω'
• Category:Greek verb conjugation group 'πλάθω'
• Category:Greek verb conjugation group 'στέκω'
• Category:Greek verb conjugation group 'ψάλλω'
• Category:Greek verbs conjugating like 'αναφύομαι'
• Category:Greek verbs conjugating like 'ευρίσκω'
• Category:Greek verbs conjugating like 'ευχαριστώ'
• Category:Greek verbs conjugating like 'κοιτάω-κοιτώ'
• Category:Greek verbs conjugating like 'λαμβάνω'
• Category:Greek verbs conjugating like 'ξύνω'
• Category:Greek verbs conjugating like 'παρακαλώ'
• Category:Greek verbs conjugating like 'σιχαίνομαι'
• Category:Greek verbs conjugating like 'σιωπώ'
• Category:Greek verbs conjugating like 'σσκώ'
• Category:Greek verbs conjugating like 'τιμάω-τιμώ'
• Category:Greek verbs conjugating like 'φυλάω-φυλώ'

Benwing2 (talk) 00:26, 22 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

!!! @Benwing2 Thank you for experimenting with modern greek verb categorisation. I am also notifying my administrator and dear mentor, @Saltmarsh. We would need some time to consider the problem of autocating greek verbs. I cannot understand very well the Module/el but,
_0. could I possibly make some changes as examples, rather than explaining in many words? Here are my thoughts:

a) Unfortunately, I cannot answer properly yet to all questions, because I categorise as I go (my notes>>for -pt-o).
My solution for the moment would be
_a1.Categories: move all the undecided (red cats, like the above examples), under

• Category:Greek verbs - uncategorised
• Category:Greek irregular verbs (more than 100 categories or lonely verbs could move here. They are officially described as 'irregular' in bibliography, so, it is not wrong.)

_a2.Desciptions.

• are OK up to 'stem'. e.g. Category:Greek consonant-stem verbs in -z- But perhaps renamed to Category:Greek verbs of 1st conjugation with consonant stems in -z-
• Group descr: I think that all group-descriptions should be removed from the module. e.g. άζω/ίζω. They are suitable for an Appendix, not the Module. (e.g. these german verbs have notes, not auto cat desciprtion.)
  • So, never mind with bold characters. Discard all this blah blah.

_a3. Category:Greek 1st conjugation verbs by inflection type = Category:Greek verbs of 1st conjugation ("by inflection type" is not necessary? cf. b2.)
_a4. the 'groups' e.g. group 'αλείφω' should appear only at Category:Greek consonant-stem verbs in -f-, not repeated at Category:Greek 1st conjugation groups

b) Questions:
_b1. Benwing2, are there any finalised standard styles of verb-categorising proposed for every language? I check verbs by lang but very few are categorized
Naming categories is a most difficult decision.
_b2. Proposed cat.titles. I would have tried never to break the expression XXX verbs to get all possible results when typing in Search. e.g. Cat:Greek verbs (not Cat:Greek + trying to imagine what words apply to verbs)

Category:Greek verbs

Category:Greek verbs of 1st conjugation / or: Greek verbs - conjugation 1

Category:Greek verbs of 2nd conjugation

Category:Greek verbs - irregular

Category:Greek verbs of 1st conjugation with consonant stems / or: Greek verbs - conjugation 1 - consonant stems

Category:Greek verbs of 1st conjugation with consonant stems in -z-

Category:Greek verbs of 2nd conjugation class A

Category:Greek verbs of 2nd conjugation class A1

Category:Greek verbs of 2nd conjugation class A combinations

Category:Greek verbs of 2nd conjugation combinations (that is, A and B)

And under the above, we get:

>> Category:Greek verbs conjugation group xx (_b3. Benwing2, do we need the horrible apostrophs?) >> Category:Greek verbs conjugating like xx / and lonely verbs

group xx = all kinds of similars, but NOT identical. +Exceptions.
like xx = here, we expect the members of the category to conjugate exactly like the paradigm

c) Why so difficult to decide
It is the first time where active+passive forms are presented together in the same table (with the new beautiful tables by Saltmarsh). A very exciting project.

• Active is more stable but passive's patterns vary tooooo much. If one combines them, the expected total number of paradigmata becomes very high. Another problem is the criteria, the structure and naming (experts' views vary).

_ w:Bescherelle includes 12,000 french verbs in 95 tables (active+passive together).
_ {{R:Jordanidou 2004}} includes only 4,500 modern greek verbs in 235 tables! (separate active, passive) Striking variety!
_ en.wiktionary now attempts 4,500plus verbs, in 400?, 500? categories? (active+passive together). Groups were created to avoid Categories with one to five members. We have discussed this problem with Saltmarsh, and decided to "toss" the 'lonely' ones in the 'Groups', not in dozens of little categories 'like x'.
I apoligise to both of you, Saltmarsh, Benwing2, for proceeding so slowly. Thank you (and thank you Benwing2 for helping at el.wikt!) ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 20:13, 22 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

Hi Sarri. Thanks for your detailed responses. I will try to make the changes as I understand them. Some individual points:

1. b1: There aren't really any standard language-agnostic ways of categorizing verbs on Wiktionary. For East Slavic verbs, we have things like Category:Russian verbs by class and Category:Russian verbs by class and accent pattern, and similarly for Ukrainian and Belarusian. In this case, we decided to follow Andrey Zaliznyak's classification of Russian verbs and use the same scheme for Ukrainian and Belarusian verbs, because they are so similar. For Bulgarian, we have Category:Bulgarian verbs by conjugation, using a different classification scheme, as found in the Wikipedia article Bulgarian conjugation; I don't know how standard this is but at least it's something. At least for Germanic languages, the classes 1 through 7 are pretty standardized. Categorizing by stem consonant and then by groups using a prototype verb, as you do, is probably as good as you can get in Greek.
2. b2: Category names generally don't use dashes in them, and we also try to avoid using of. So we might have:

   'Greek verbs'

   'Greek irregular verbs' (this is a standard category that exists for many languages, see Category:Irregular verbs by language)

   'Greek first-conjugation verbs' (or 'Greek 1st-conjugation verbs' or maybe 'Greek conjugation 1 verbs')

   'Greek first-conjugation consonant-stem verbs'

   'Greek first-conjugation consonant-stem verbs in -z-'

   'Greek second-conjugation class A verbs'

3. b3: Absolutely, we can get rid of the apostrophes, I don't like them either.
4. I am fine with moving the descriptive text to an appendix. The auto-cat description can simply link to the appendix.
5. For the remaining red-linked categories, can you identify the stem consonant of each group, and the group of each "like"-verb category? That way I can add them to the module and create the categories.
6. I will make the fixes you suggest in a2 through a4 above.
7. Finally, don't worry about going slowly! Better to take our time and get it right than make a mess of things. Benwing2 (talk) 21:41, 22 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

OK, @Benwing2. I wonder how Category:Ancient Greek verbs by inflection type will go. It would be desirable for both of us, to have the same pattern of titles. Perhaps even the catchwords. Our 1st and 2nd conjugation, matches the ancient 1st and 1st contracted. The pattern of stem-endings also.

• why 'first' 'second'? Better 1st 2nd for economy of space.

I will remove all verbs from the above red categories.

I shall not add any new Category, until all verb-patterns are done. Otherwise, I would not be able to choose a good name for them.

Salt, do you agree? to wait for everything to be clear... In the meantime, I will be adding conjugations to the lemmata, do not worry. I will just put them to uncategorised or irregular, if that's ok with you. I will be working on my notes in the meantime: no need to spoil the module with names which change again and again, until crystallised. (Lockdown.2 helps!) ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 00:21, 23 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

PS Please ping me! I do not get messages from here... ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 00:47, 23 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Sarri.greek, Benwing2 Choosing cat names later seems very sensible, as does creating similarities between Ancient & Modern — I hope that you'll forgive me if I take semi-retirement on more routine/mundane tasks. — Saltmarsh. 08:02, 23 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Sarri.greek Greece seems to be suffering much more than earlier in the year - I hope that you are keeping well and out of trouble! —Χρόνια πολλά — Saltmarsh. 11:57, 25 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

O! Thank you, @Saltmarsh, you remembered St Catherine's day :) as for the lockdown: I have spent as a pianist most of my life practicing alone, so, I am trained to be isolated. The many people who are sick in Greece are mostly the ones who would go to parties, who did not like to wear masks, and church goers (also do no like masks). The rest of us are well. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 14:30, 25 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

Καλησπέρα @Sarri.greek - someone (a single entry person created an entry for "η πλειονότητα", which someone else has moved to πλειονότητα. I see that "η πλειονότητα" is entered as a translation for everything, is this correct and should the entry for "πλειονότητα" mention this? — thanks — Saltmarsh. 18:51, 4 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

Hello, boss! Yes, @Saltmarsh, PUC is Barytonensis who is an excellent speaker of mod.gre(and ancient, and, and...), and he did very well to move it. The 'everything' sense is understood. It is just a syntax with the artible.

I added the antonym μειονότητα which is reserved for sense 'ethnic minority'. And the -ψηφία words (πλειοψηφία, μειοψηφία) are also used as general terms, not only referring to number of actual votes.

PS. My love to Fr., please tell her, I remember Paxoi often. / PS2. -just joking: I have grown accustomed to lockdown: missed some very boring obligations! - ουδέν κακόν αμιγές καλού (el) (oudén kakón amigés kaloú) nothing bad comes without something good- ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 23:21, 4 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Sarri.greek Thank you so much. We had snow yesterday, the temperature was 2° and rising, so it hasn't lain on the ground for long - and we are stuck inside anyway! — Saltmarsh. 05:55, 5 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Sarri.greek I hadn't appreciated that PUC was Barytonensis,etc, else I wouldn't have queried. ! — Saltmarsh. 07:33, 5 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

Snow!! here only rain @Saltmarsh, Yes, Bary taught me a lot about greek etymology... but Bary, you keep changing names! :) ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 07:37, 5 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Sarri.greek as my fount of Greek knowledge please comment on αντιπερασπισμός which I found in my cheap pocket Greek produced bilingual dictionary. I assumed that it was a misprint. But the word, while uncommon, appears in print . Are you happy with the entry? — Saltmarsh. 12:41, 17 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

Dear @Saltmarsh, I have never heard αντιπερασπισμός, and I also checked the Dimitrakos large dictionary -which has practically everything- It is not there. Georgakas does not have it either. I will need to ask people at el.wikt to look it up, because i can see it at google ... αντιπερισπασμός is OK, a well known word from anti-περισπασμός, counter-distraction. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 14:09, 17 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Sarri.greek Since it has appeared more than a few times in print it meets Wiktionary's criteria for inclusion, so I think it should stay — if necessary with comment. — Saltmarsh. 14:42, 17 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Saltmarsh. Yes, of course. I am now asking at el.wikt, what it means. I have no idea what it means. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 15:02, 17 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

Sorry @Sarri.greek, I should have said at the beginning that the only dictionary I have found it in is edited by George Magazis and published by Efstathiadis in Athens (he also edits the en-el Langenscheidt dictionary). The English is given as "diversion" hence the entry I created. — Saltmarsh. 07:13, 19 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

Thank you @Saltmarsh. I have put the question at el.wikt and one person said he has heard it before. Otherwise, I have no news. But if you have seen it at a dictionary, that is ok. Perhaps it would be a good idea to put a ref at the lemma. I always do, if a word is not found neither at DSMG nor at Bab. Salt! have a nice Xmas 'vacation' (well: we are on vacation all the time, but I hope you have a good time) ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 10:43, 19 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ @Sarri.greek - it would be nice if I {{ref|ed}} all my entries, but this would slow down things too much. bah humbug, I don't really do Christmas but the rest (paticularly female) do. So a brave face is required. Common sense has reigned (unfortunately absent from Downing Street) — our daughter & family will not be visiting form S.London. — Saltmarsh. 11:30, 19 December 2020 (UTC)Reply