Wiktionary:Grease pit/2025/April

I tried to create sorbigi with this content, but I get the following error: Error, edit not published. Caught exception of type MediaWiki\Extension\AbuseFilter\Filter\FilterNotFoundException What does that mean?

Thank you, 91.94.110.129 20:15, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

I think it means there was some kind of temporary glitch, probably in the inner workings of some abuse filter. Whatever it was, there's no trace of it in any of the logs.

In general, you'll have better luck with abuse filters if you create the entry first, then add the quotes. There are abuse filters that look for new accounts or IPs adding hard-coded external links, and the more content you have in the same edit, the higher the chance that something will look like the other things the filter is checking for. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:46, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

Just FYI, there has been an increase in temporary outages lately in MediaWiki servers. Apparently this is due to bots relentlessly scraping the servers for machine learning training content. Traffic has gone up at least 50% since a year ago, mentioned here: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2025/04/ai-bots-strain-wikimedia-as-bandwidth-surges-50/. FWIW at Amazon there is a whole team dedicated to detecting and filtering out robotic traffic for multiple reasons; e.g. it strains the infrastructure and it distorts things like recommender models that are supposed to be trained on human preferences (which have a very different profile from robotic traffic). Google certainly has the same thing (I've run into it periodically, e.g. if I have a bunch of tabs open and have to reboot, and Chrome hits all the tabs at once when it reloads). es Seems like MediaWiki need to do this too; these bots are straining their infrastructure too, and distorting things like cache prediction systems that try to figure out which pages are visited most so they can be cached in the CDN's. Benwing2 (talk) 20:22, 11 April 2025 (UTC)

Can wiktionary start doing the same thing, blocking access from robot traffic, at least from well-known IP addresses? And redirect them to a wiktdump page? Or this project https://github.com/tatuylonen/wiktextract?tab=readme-ov-file which I am currently using. It's great. I would think machine learning researchers would also prefer to have the training data locally anyway, and in a form they can tweak to their hearts content?

Killeroonie (talk) 21:17, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

Today I was trying to wikify 変体仮名 by replacing the HTML tags with {{unordered list}}. (Just using the "*" syntax for an unordered list does not work in an image caption.) That template has been deleted by User:Benwing, so I tried using the Module:List directly, as the template did. But then I got an error message that said "invoke" cannot be used in article space directly, and it had to be wrapped in a template. But it did not say which template to use. The module page seems to indicate that {{unordered list}} and friends were expected to be used. If there is a discussion about deleting this template, I can't find one. Does anyone know what I'm supposed to do in this situation? Is there another template? Are image captions not supposed to have lists? {{ordered list}} still exists. Also curious why #invoke can't be used directly, as it seems to work fine in previews. -- Beland (talk) 23:58, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

@Beland: First of all, you should never use "invoke" in entries. There is an abuse filter that looks for that and stops it. It doesn't give suggestions tailored to the context because it operates on every page in the Main namespace and doesn't know the context. As for what to do: {{col}} and similar templates generate bulleted lists inside of image captions.

The first thing to be aware of is that they take a language code as the first parameter and each of the unnamed parameters is a separate item in the list. Another thing is that {{col}} doesn't like {{m}} in its parameters. Also, like Wikimedia templates in general, it treats "=" as the boundary between the name of a parameter and the value assigned to it. That means you have to replace it with =, {{=}}, <nowiki>=</nowiki>, or equivalent.

It will probably take some tinkering with inline prefixes and other tricks to make the display come out the same. You'll have to read through the documentation at {{col}} to see what's available.

Good luck! Chuck Entz (talk) 02:26, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for the pointer! I'll try {{col}} and update the documentation on other templates. Do you happen to know why #invoke is forbidden or in what discussion that was decided? Beland (talk) 20:31, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

It's just considered bad practice to show raw template syntax and details about modules in entry wikitext. Maybe @Theknightwho. who created the abuse filter in question, can explain better. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:38, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

@Chuck Entz @Beland Longstanding practice. We do everything via templates for the sake of keeping things intuitive for the average editor, whereas {{#invoke:}} is treated as a building-block to create templates out of, and not something that the average editor needs to worry about. It's the same for things like {{#IF:}} and so on. Theknightwho (talk) 22:06, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

Template:RQ:Jewish Oral Law is dor quoting and uses switches between many values. I tried to make a version that sticks to some of the parameters and includes an external link by default: User:Danny lost/sandbox/Template:Oral Sefaria. It looks mostly fine, but breaks on the second case of the documentation, which uses another template Template:RQ:Mishnah to pass parameters to the main one. The break happens about the inclusion of |5=,as if a space is present but I can't find it. What's the problem?. cc: @Hftf (talk • contribs). Danny lost (talk) 06:04, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

 Done Danny lost (talk) 12:40, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

Like the title says, I should very much like these forms, specially the participle forms, be added to the template. The template is already extremely good and comprehensive, including arcane, obscure and seldom used forms like the second form -or conjugations or the jussive mood.; methinks it'd only add in beneficial ways to include the potential mood that Schleyer outlined in his works to be tied to the -öx ending, let alone the participial forms, which are notoriously unseen. 181.87.149.108 03:08, 6 April 2025 (UTC)

When using visual editor on mobile, @Saph, @Ardahan Karabağ and I have been experiencing a bug where multiple elements overlap, making the previewed edit illegible. example 1 example 2

Saph and I have tried to recreate this bug on other wiki's, but have been unable to, leading us to believe this may be an issue on Wiktionary's end, rather than an issue with Wikimedia. Does anyone have any idea as to what could be causing such a bug? — BABR・talk 17:55, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

Yeah, I also have tried on laptop but it was quite alright. And don't think that the bug is caused by the phone itself though. I wonder if there are other mobile users who has this problem. Ardahan Karabağ (talk) 18:49, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

If I try either on en.m.wiktionary.org from my desktop or from my iPhone, I can't even preview an edit because the bar at the bottom is all out of whack. Presumably something changed recently in some CSS or JavaScript to cause this, but I don't know what. Benwing2 (talk) 19:32, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

I can't replicate the issue on the mobile site, whether I use a computer or my phone. Has it gone away? This, that and the other (talk) 04:38, 8 April 2025 (UTC)

@This, that and the other I'm pretty sure it was due to a change made by @Ioaxxere to MediaWiki:Minerva.css on April 6 around 12:50AM UTC. We reverted the change and that seems to have fixed it. Benwing2 (talk) 04:46, 8 April 2025 (UTC)

MediaWiki message delivery 18:52, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

For whomever it may concern, a new edition of the Academy's downloadable dictionary has been published:
http://www.academiadelaragones.org/biblio/EDACAR14DACC.pdf
...just in case someone might take a notion to construct a template for using it as a reference. The most immediately noticeable difference is that the typeface is smaller, and so the document takes up only about half as many pages as the previous version. — HelpMyUnbelief (talk) 20:17, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

Hello. Go to https://www.wiktionary.org/. Fill in the form, for instance, with "a". Check whether from your side you're redirected to https://en.wikipedia.orghttps://dictious.com/en/A Pápiliunculus (talk) 07:29, 8 April 2025 (UTC)

Hi, this is being tracked on Phabricator already: phab:T391297. It is out of our control so hopefully it'll be fixed soon enough. Saph (talk) 14:30, 8 April 2025 (UTC)

Already was what I thought back in the day. I'm seeing this for way more than a week now, an eternity as these things go, and the report on Phabricator is about as old (it wasn't me). In fact it looked then like there was already a fix proposed, pull requested. And if there's a major break, and hardly being able to even access Wiktionary doesn't qualify, I wouldn't know what does. Someone cares a whole lot about this thing, that's for sure. And someone borked it big time. -2001:9E8:6AA5:7B00:6CF7:829F:E8AA:1B0F 10:57, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

It was not as dramatic as you make it sound; clicking a link in the popup search results or clicking the overarching link to English Wiktionary were still functional.

Nonetheless, I took it upon myself to shepherd the change ("pull request") through a WMF backport window and the bug is now fixed. This, that and the other (talk) 13:27, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

At the top right there is a menu marked by an ellipsis "..." and this menu contains an item "Pages for logged out editors - learn more". The link goes to Help:Introduction, which does not exist on Wiktionary. 2A00:23C5:FE1C:3701:F050:4AD7:86D3:BA99 16:23, 9 April 2025 (UTC)

I don't see any incoming links to it, but I redirected the page. Thanks. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 16:48, 9 April 2025 (UTC)

I've noticed that in the header templates for nouns and verbs, sometimes "form" is used and sometimes "forms" is used. Examples: heterographs : {head|en|noun forms} baggages  : {head|en|noun form} bagged  : {head|en|verb form} ashened  : {head|en|verb forms}

Is there a different template behavior between "form" and "forms", or are they synonyms/equivalents? Is one preferred to the other?

Thanks! Killeroonie (talk) 21:04, 10 April 2025 (UTC)

@Killeroonie Very much synonyms! See Template:head#Part of speech. This, that and the other (talk) 21:50, 10 April 2025 (UTC)

Under the header you referenced, it states "If the part of speech is written out in full, it is stylistically preferred to write it in the singular." So that's a preference there. I'm just dipping my toe into the templates here and am already drowning lol.

I'm confused by what this means, under Template:head#Parameters:

```

|2=

The part of speech category (such as "noun", "verb", "adjective" etc), which is used to add the entry to the appropriate category. This can be in either plural or singular form. In the latter case, the template will pluralise it automatically if it doesn't already end in -s. Exceptions can be added to the invariable list at the top of Module:headword/data if necessary.

```

It says if pos category like 'noun' is used in the singular, "the template will pluralize it automatically if it doesn't already end in -s."

So my new question is, what does "it" refer to in the above sentence? There are only 25 entries for cases where the head template pos is pluralized and 4,339 where it is singular:

head | en | nouns, 25 entries, e.g. say

head | en | noun, 4,339 entries, e.g. comics

So it would seem the "standard" is to use the singular, at least for English nouns. Both the Template:head#Part of speech and the fact that most entries use the singular 'noun' would seem to support this conclusion.

But why are there *any* singular "noun" head arguments when then Template says it will pluralize "it" (maybe the web page source html doesn't count as "it?"

However, the vast majority of Eng. nouns are using the en-noun template, I suspect, which I will be looking into next.

Killeroonie (talk) 02:25, 11 April 2025 (UTC)

I think it means the parameter is converted to plural for the sake of the category. E.g. "bagged" and "ashened" are both placed in Category:English_verb_forms.--Urszag (talk) 02:48, 11 April 2025 (UTC)

Hmm... who do I talk to to make edits on Template:head#Parameters? I'd like to edit this section:

|2=

The part of speech category (such as "noun", "verb", "adjective" etc), which is used to add the entry to the appropriate category. This can be in either plural or singular form. In the latter case, the template will pluralise it automatically if it doesn't already end in -s. Exceptions can be added to the invariable list at the top of Module:headword/data if necessary.

to become:

|2=

The part of speech category (such as "noun", "verb", "adjective" etc), which is used to add the entry to the appropriate Wiktionary:Categories.

----

It's already stated in Template:head#Part of speech:

" If the part of speech is written out in full, it is stylistically preferred to write it in the singular."

And the text about pluralization is an implementation detail that happens behind the scenes that just adds confusion to this entry.

I'd also want to modify Template:head#Part of speech:

Where within two sentences of each other it states:

"Add the word "form" to indicate a non-lemma form. For example, use 'noun form' for plurals and inflections of nouns."

and also:

"For example, nf or nounf expands to 'noun forms', and compadjf expands to 'comparative adjective forms'"

I have confirmed that the head template will change an abbreviation like 'nf' to "noun forms" (plural), so I believe that is the intended style (plural), which contradicts the above section. (Where is the facepalm emoji??)

So I believe this section should be edited at the very least to indicate that "Add the word "forms" to indicate a non-lemma form. For example, use 'noun forms' for plurals and inflections of nouns." (forms plural) to be consistent with the Template.

Unless there is some other macro happening when a user enters "noun form" vs "noun forms" instead of "nf" that I don't know about. <shrug emoji>

THEN AGAIN...

there are only 25 entries with head|en|noun forms, e.g. say and over 309K entries with head|en|noun form, e.g. leaves, so on just this basis alone I'd submit that the standard should be "noun form" (singluar) for consistency.

Killeroonie (talk) 03:54, 11 April 2025 (UTC)

@Killeroonie The documentation is correct that noun form is stylistically preferred, but noun form and noun forms are equivalent. Under the hood, a singular part of speech is pluralized to get the appropriate category name, which is e.g. Category:English noun forms not Category:English noun form. The abbreviations like nounf and nf were added recently (by me) to reduce the amount of typing necessary; ultimately they map to noun forms just like noun form does. Maybe there's a better way of writing the documentation that wouldn't confuse you; if so let me know how you think it ought to be written. Benwing2 (talk) 20:10, 11 April 2025 (UTC)

Wow, very cool. I have the actual dev to ask about things! Does nounf or nf remain in the literal header text on the page, or does it get replaced to "noun forms"? I haven't seen any "head" arguments with "nf" so I am assuming that head|en|nf gets rewritten to be "head|en|noun forms" ?

And I understand that the *category* name for this is "English noun forms". But like I pointed out above, there are currently 309K entries with the singular "noun form" and only 25 with the plural "noun form." For consistency, I'd love to see these canonicalized to "noun form" in the header argument, even if the template adds it to the "English noun forms" (plural) category. The entry to which the tag applies *is* a single noun form, so "noun forms" doesn't seem grammatically correct. Whereas the category encompasses many nouns, so "noun forms" seems correct for that.

And I haven't even looked at the other parts of speech for the same issue ...verbs, adverbs, adjectives, etc...

I'm coming at this from a machine processing frame of mind where consistency is more important for machines. But it's also important for we humans :)

Killeroonie (talk) 06:20, 13 April 2025 (UTC)

@Killeroonie: You can find a few uses of "nf" if you search for them right (kapel, lupi, etc.). They seem to be pretty recent and some are associated with shortcuts like {{h}}, so it's possible you might have missed them in dump searches. I don't think anyone goes around replacing them. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:30, 13 April 2025 (UTC)

Hello, I am not fully familiar with the category tree system, however could I request that somebody adds the following to the Cornish category tree:

(under Cornish lemmas):

• Cornish mutation triggers:
  • Cornish soft mutation triggers
  • Cornish aspirate mutation triggers
  • Cornish hard mutation triggers
  • Cornish mixed mutation triggers

Let me know if not - I can revert my additions of these categories. Thanks :) Tesco250 (talk) 11:25, 11 April 2025 (UTC)

@Tesco250 What's a "mutation trigger" and what sort of entries go in these categories? I assume there are corresponding things in all the Celtic languages, so I'm confused why no one has seen fit to categorize them yet. Benwing2 (talk) 20:05, 11 April 2025 (UTC)

Just any word that triggers a mutation of the following word - e.g. dhe in Cornish, an in Irish. Like I say I'm not familiar with the category tree, so if this isn't worth adding as categories then I can revert the changes. Equally, they might be better placed in a different part of the category tree. I just thought having categories for them might be helpful. Tesco250 (talk) 20:41, 11 April 2025 (UTC)

My initial reaction is that these seem like useful categories. Something that is worth clarifying: mutation sometimes applies in open-ended contexts, doesn't it? E.g. "after a feminine noun". I assume you wouldn't want to put all feminine nouns into a category just because of that kind of regular mutation.--Urszag (talk) 20:56, 11 April 2025 (UTC)

I agree with this; I think they're useful. However we need to settle on hyphen or no hyphen in the name; currently we have Category:Cornish mixed mutation triggers but Category:Cornish mixed-mutation forms with a hyphen. Also it would be good to add a trigger= argument to the Cornish headword templates that generates the category as well as displaying triggers soft mutation or whatever in the headword, so it doesn't have to be done manually in both places. And I would generally agree that if an entire class of words (e.g. feminine nouns) systematically triggers mutation, we probably don't need to enter all words of that class, as it will swamp the category and make it overall less useful. BTW this reminds me a bit of French liaison and I could maybe see categories being added for liaison triggers words, since it's not always predictable (e.g. et is supposed to never trigger liaison). Benwing2 (talk) 05:52, 12 April 2025 (UTC)

While yes gender does affect mutations - Welsh y and Cornish an cause soft mutation of feminine singular words - the words causing the mutation in these cases is still the article. Generally, as far as I'm aware, mutation triggers are only ever articles, determiners, prepositions, and pronouns - and cause mutation of the following word rather than previous words.

If previously existing categories are hyphenated then it would probably make most sense to hyphenate these new categories. Tesco250 (talk) 07:29, 12 April 2025 (UTC)

OK. I think in Old Irish, nouns in various cases cause various sorts of mutations of following words, but maybe that doesn't apply any more, or at least not in Cornish. Benwing2 (talk) 09:20, 12 April 2025 (UTC)

Currently CSS rules for .Hani, .Hans and .Hant (MediaWiki:Gadget-LanguagesAndScripts.css) are:

.Hans {
	font-family: 'PingFang SC', DengXian, 'Source Han Sans SC', 'Source Han Sans CN', 'Noto Sans CJK SC', 'Microsoft Yahei', SimHei, SimSun, NSimSun, SimSun-ExtB, Song, 'Heiti SC', HanaMinA, HanaMinB, sans-serif;
}
.Hani,
.Hant {
	font-family: 'PingFang TC', 'Source Han Sans TC', 'Source Han Sans TW', 'Noto Sans CJK TC', 'Microsoft Jhenghei', MOESongUN, PMingLiU, PMingLiU-ExtB, MingLiU, MingLiU-ExtB, Ming, 'Heiti TC', HanaMinA, HanaMinB, sans-serif;
}

.Hani,
.Hans,
.Hant {
	font-size: 120%;
	line-height: 1;
}

.Hani:lang(vi) {
	font-family: 'Nom Na Tong', 'HAN NOM A', 'HAN NOM B', Sun-ExtA, Sun-ExtB, Ming-Lt-HKSCS-UNI-H, Ming-Lt-HKSCS-ExtB, HanaMinA, HanaMinB, HanaMin, 'PingFang TC', MingLiU, MingLiU-ExtB, 'MingLiU_HKSCS', 'MingLiU_HKSCS-ExtB', SimSun, SimSun-ExtB, 'Arial Unicode MS', 'TITUS Cyberbit Basic', sans-serif;
	/* CJK Unified Ideographs Extension C and Extension D (U+2A700..U+2B734, U+2B740..U+2B81F)
	font-family: Sun-ExtB, 'MingLiU_HKSCS-ExtB', Ming-Lt-HKSCS-ExtB, HanaMinB, sans-serif;
	**/
}

I would like to add three fonts:

• Plangothic ('Plangothic P1', 'Plangothic P2'): sans-serif font based on Source Han Sans, supports CJK Ext. B to J;
• Jigmo (Jigmo, Jigmo2, Jigmo3): the official successor to Hanazono Mincho;
• BabelStone Han

Where should they be placed? (Notifying Fish bowl, Justinrleung, Geographyinitiative, Mxn, PhanAnh123, MuDavid): dringsim 16:28, 14 April 2025 (UTC)

I think Plangothic can be placed near (before or after?) the Noto/Source fonts in accordance with its derivation from those fonts, and Jigmo should be placed before Hanazono due to being the successor. As for BabelStone Han, I have no opinion, but perhaps it should be placed higher than system fonts due to its active maintenance.

(It's unrelated, but I also have doubts about unifying Hani to Hant. I think 臺標 is quite ugly and would prefer to see Hani + Hans.) —Fish bowl (talk) 22:12, 14 April 2025 (UTC)

MediaWiki message delivery 00:24, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

Are the Lua scripts used by Wiktionary released under the same licenses as the word data, or is there a different license scheme for those?

Thanks, Killeroonie (talk) 00:47, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

@Killeroonie All content (other than images, audio clips etc) on this wiki is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License (CC BY-SA) 4.0 as shown in the footer of the site. That includes Lua modules.

It's arguable the CC BY-SA license is not intended or suited for code, but it's what applies. This, that and the other (talk) 01:50, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

This is used as head arg 2 on бриґуюци, иснуюци, постояци, and шлїдуюци. But there is no pos "active adjectival participle" in the lemma/non-lemma pos tables in Module:headword/data. The nearest matches are "adjectival participle" or "active participle" . I don't know if this is a special pos category that exists in Russian, but even if so there is no wiktionary pos category for this. So this needs to be added, or more likely, the data is incorrectly entered on these pages. @Benwing2

Killeroonie (talk) 03:11, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

This is actually Pannonian Rusyn rather than Russian, and I think the use of active adjectival participle is a mistake that should be replaced with simply active participle, or maybe present active participle if there exist past active participles in this language (as there do in Russian). For example, the etymologically closest word to постояци (postojaci) in Russian is стоя́щий (stojáščij), which uses the POS present active participle. Benwing2 (talk) 19:11, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

pos_aliases has the entry "cnum": "cardinal number", but there is no corresponding "cardinal number" entry in lemma_pos nor non_lemma_pos. Is "cardinal number" supposed to be a legit pos, or is it just a page category (the kind of Category at the bottom of the page?) The only example of use I currently know of (within the last month) is sien#Ladino @Benwing2 Killeroonie (talk) 05:37, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

That entry is in fact the only one. The correct POS here is "numeral" (counterintuitive, but it's because the word "number" already has a meaning in linguistics). {{head|...|numeral|cat2=cardinal numbers}} would be the proper way to handle cardinal numbers. We should get rid of cnum. This, that and the other (talk) 10:23, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

Whoops, plus three in Galician that use cnum. This, that and the other (talk) 10:30, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

I've made those changes to all 4 entries.

Killeroonie (talk) 10:44, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

And I deleted cnum. This, that and the other (talk) 11:27, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

what about "onum": "ordinal number" in pos_aliases as well? There's just one entry for this: keiow. Killeroonie (talk) 21:35, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

Other Mokilese ordinals are entered as "numerals", which is doubtful, but the referenced grammar (Harrison 1976) doesn't seem to be very clear on what POS these belong to. I've changed that keiow entry and removed onum from the module. This, that and the other (talk) 02:02, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

Sometimes you submit an entry (create/update) and it fails with a wiki "RDBMS error" (pink banner). In the past, you just had to press the Back button to return to the edit page with your edited text still there, and submit again. But now when you go back (still using Chrome as I always did), the box is empty, and the work is lost. I believe the wiki interface (JavaScript etc.) must have changed so as to break this. A bad move! 2A00:23C5:FE1C:3701:E509:6B03:1FA8:8FA8 12:27, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

I agree that this is bad behavior but I'm not sure whether this is related to anything on our side that we've done. This may be a MediaWiki regression. In general I have never trusted the back button to work in such a circumstance; I've found it better to reload the page, which (at least for me) asks if you want to resubmit the form data, and click on "Yes". Benwing2 (talk) 18:50, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

I'm a little confused on the rules for Category naming. I'm talking about the automatic adding of a word to a category based on the head template data. I *thought* for non lemmas, it would append "forms" at the end of the Category name, but for hotter and hottest, they are just named English comparative adjectives and English superlative adjectives.

But then in the non_lemma_pos table we have: "comparative adjective forms", "comparative adjectives", "comparative adverb forms", "comparative adverbs", ... "superlative adjective forms", "superlative adjectives", "superlative adverb forms", "superlative adverbs",

I'm limiting my question to just the comparative/superlative adjective/adverb forms here because I know there are actually quite a few more form types for adjective and adverb. So how does the template work when you use the different variations above as arg 2 in a {head} template?

Thanks! Killeroonie (talk) 00:15, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure what your question is; are you asking what the difference is between comparative adjectives and comparative adjective forms, or what happens when you use e.g. comparative adjectives as the POS (arg 2) of {{head}}? In general, we treat comparatives, superlatives and participles as non-lemma forms, but they're a bit strange in that in many languages they themselves can be inflected like adjectives. So for example the Latin present active participle amāns of the verb amō (“to love”) is considered to be of POS participle, which is a non-lemma form, but it in turn can be inflected, e.g. masc/fem accusative singular amantem, which would be of POS participle form. Similarly the adjective grandis (“big”) has the comparative form grandior (“bigger”), which is of POS comparative adjective, and inflections of grandior such as masc/fem accusative singular grandiōrem are of POS comparative adjective form. Both comparative adjective and comparative adjective form are considered to be in the category non-lemma form, but in some sense grandior is also a lemma because it functions as the lemma form of grandiōrem. The terminology for this isn't completely fixed but I refer to something like grandior as an intermediate lemma, which in turn has a base lemma grandis. In English, adjectives are invariable so there isn't anything in the category Category:English comparative adjective forms (which is a non-existent category), and comparatives simply go into Category:English comparative adjectives. Benwing2 (talk) 19:03, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

@Benwing2 I was going to reply to a similar effect, but then I noticed that e.g. grandiōrem has POS "adjective forms", not "comparative adjective forms". Indeed, Category:Comparative adjective forms by language is only comprehensively populated for German and Latvian. Do we need it at all, given that ACCEL is unlikely to ever be able to cope with it? This, that and the other (talk) 22:55, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

This is a good point. ACCEL can be fairly easily made to handle it by adding an accel-pos param that can be specified e.g. by {{head}} or the appropriate inflection code, but it's worth asking whether it makes sense to do that. The general consensus is against creating things like adjective plural forms and adjective feminine forms (which in fact I removed maybe a year ago). Comparatives, superlatives and participles are kind of special in that they function somewhat as lemmas, somewhat as non-lemma forms, which is why we didn't automatically deprecate comparative adjective forms and past participle forms and such when things like adjective feminine forms and noun plural forms were deprecated. But maybe we should; I dunno. Benwing2 (talk) 23:26, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

@Benwing2 it's worth noting that German treats comparative adjective forms as forms of the positive adjective (and the declension table is at that entry), while e.g. Latin treats them as forms of the comparative adjective (with positive and comparative having distinct declension tables). I wonder if this is just an artifact of the way these entries were first set up, as opposed to a definite difference in the way these two languages are traditionally grammaticalised. I tend to prefer the Latin setup, but it does give rise to the unusual situation where a non-lemma form has its own non-lemma forms, which the German approach avoids. In any event the special comparative adjective forms POS/category doesn't seem very useful, even for German. This, that and the other (talk) 06:54, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

@This, that and the other I also prefer the Latin setup. Let's see if anyone else comments on whether we should get rid of comparative adjective forms. Benwing2 (talk) 09:05, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

Hello,

I was recently trying to upload an American English pronunciation of the word "dickbutt" and it flagged the edit as harmful.

I am being as genuine as one can be when discussing this topic, we were looking at the etymology of the word and I noticed it did not have a pronunciation audio file so I created one.

I also added a definition that had to do with the historical context of the word, as it wasn't really used harmfully in the context I know it. If that was the offensive edit, I can remove that.

The "abuse rule" mentioned in the error was "vff".

Here's a link to the page: https://en.wiktionary.orghttps://dictious.com/en/dickbutt

Also, here's my proposed edit (the first definition in the list is my edit, and the Etymology and Pronunciation are both added by me, the sound file uploaded just fine and seemed to work in the preview).

==English==

===Etymology===
From {{compound|en|dick|butt}}.

===Pronunciation===
* {{audio|en|En-us-dickbutt.ogg|a=US}}

===Noun===
{{en-noun}}

# An internet meme from a 2006 webcomic by K.C. Green.
# {{lb|en|offensive|vulgar}} A ] ].
# {{lb|en|offensive|vulgar}} {{non-gloss|A term of abuse.}}

Let me know, thanks! ColoradoJoe2 (talk) 06:51, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

@ColoradoJoe2 thanks, done. I didn't add the extra sense as I don't believe it meets Wiktionary's criteria for inclusion, nor is it defined properly (what does it actually mean?). This, that and the other (talk) 04:15, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

I attempted to post the following text on Talk:congestion and it was refused with a reference to "online shopping spam":

I don't think the sense used in energy markets is adequately covered here, although sense 1 comes close: the inability to receive energy from the lowest-cost supplier due to the demand for power being in excess of the transmission capacity between the user and the generator. In a deregulated wholesale market, prices may be broken down into the cost of the energy, the losses in the transmission system, and a congestion uplift, which is the additional cost to deliver power where it's needed relative to the cheapest supplier on the grid. See Le Sieutre BC and Eto JH, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, "Electricity Transmission Congestion Costs: A Review of Recent Reports" (Oct. 2003), p. 1, for an official definition, which distinguishes this sense from traffic congestion.

207.180.169.36 22:55, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

This is a global filter, we cannot do much about it. I don't think there is any forum for reporting these. The closest might be meta:Talk:Global AbuseFilter. — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 23:05, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

Hi Wiktionary editors — I drafted a new entry for moral distress, a well-documented term used in psychology, ethics, and healthcare literature. However, my submission was flagged as “automatically identified as harmful,” even when trying to save it in my own sandbox.

I’ve followed the formatting guidelines carefully and included a properly formatted quote-journal citation. I believe the automated block may be due to my new account or the external citation URL.

Would someone be willing to help review and move this entry forward? I’m happy to make any edits needed.

Here’s the full draft below.

Thank you in advance — I’d really appreciate your help and feedback!

== English ==

=== Etymology ===
From {{af|en|moral|distress}}. The term was first used in clinical nursing literature in the 1980s.

=== Noun ===
{{en-noun|-}}

# A form of emotional or psychological distress that occurs when a person knows the ethically appropriate action to take but is prevented from acting due to external constraints, resulting in feelings of guilt, powerlessness, or moral compromise.
#* {{quote-journal|en|author=Dr. Jenny Shields|title=Moral Distress at Work: Naming the Guilt You Can’t Quite Explain|magazine=Shields Psychology & Consulting, PLLC|passage='''Moral distress''' is what happens when conscience and compliance collide—and compliance wins.|date=2025-04-20|url=https://www.drjennyshields.com/blog/moral-distress}}

==== Usage notes ====

* ''Moral distress'' was originally coined in nursing ethics and first formally described by Andrew Jameton in 1984. It has since been adopted more broadly in fields such as medicine, education, nonprofit leadership, law, and other high-stakes professional environments.
* Often contrasted with ], which typically refers to trauma resulting from actions taken rather than inaction.

==== See also ====

* ]
* ]

{{C|en|Psychology}}

Drjennyshields (talk) 06:14, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

@Drjennyshields thanks for your contribution. Despite the fact that you cited what appears to be one of your own works, I can confirm the existence of this term in the sense given in your definition, so I've created the entry: moral distress. This, that and the other (talk) 07:00, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

@This, that and the other - Thank you so much for reviewing the draft and for moving the entry forward. I really appreciate your clarity around the use of self-citations and your willingness to include the term based on its documented usage. I'm glad to be learning from this process and will look for opportunities to supplement the entry with additional independent citations where appropriate. Grateful for your support and guidance!

Drjennyshields (talk) 18:36, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

MediaWiki message delivery 21:00, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

I recently created Category:LLM Coinages, but as an IP editor I am not able to place it in the category tree. Would it be possible for someone with edit access to add an entry like

labels = {
	description = "{{{langname}}} terms that have been coined by LLMs, not humans.",
	parents = {"terms by etymology"},
}

to Module:category_tree/poscatboiler/data/terms_by_etymology? (I assume that I or someone else would also have to move Category:LLM Coinages to Category:English LLM Coinages since the tree appears to expect these terms to be grouped by language.) Thank you. 166.181.81.148 18:45, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

 Done, see CAT:English LLM coinages. Svārtava (tɕ) 04:02, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

Thank you! 166.181.81.148 07:10, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

@Benwing2: A gremlin has crept into entries for places in Welsh county boroughs. The wording is now "borough county borough", which is a bit bizarre. I first noticed it at Jersey Marine, and I checked a couple of others, Llandudno and Cowbridge, which now "feature" the same gremlin. DonnanZ (talk) 10:02, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

Yeah I know about that issue. I just finished a big refactor of the place known-location code; I'll see if I can fix this tomorrow. Benwing2 (talk) 10:15, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

I tried looking into this and it's too complicated for me to fix myself, but it's happening between lines 1441 and 1461 (need_affix is being set as true after display is already handled, so ] borough is getting affixed anyway), if that helps. Saph (talk) 12:57, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

Currently, all the locations for these categories have to be passed by hand, but I've mocked up how this would work at Special:Permalink/84643422, which automatically grabs all the locations from Wikidata. I still need to work out a few kinks, particularly adding the correct article, if possible, but otherwise, any objections? Saph (talk) 16:14, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

I was reading Wiktionary:Entry layout#List of headings and it describes what the header levels of various sections should be, i.e Noun should be level 3: "===Noun===" but for dog, the Noun section header is level 4: "====Noun====" Is the Entry Layout article just a loose guideline, or does this need to be enforced? I am just starting to work with parsing wikitext via mwparserfromhell, and I know it uses the levels to identify sections on the page, so I would think this is something that would be enforced. Killeroonie (talk) 06:47, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

@Killeroonie see the example starting "Sometimes..." at WT:EL#Etymology. This, that and the other (talk) 06:56, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

Wow. You know All The Things. :)

Thanks!

Killeroonie (talk) 08:34, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

I've been here almost 18 years and I'm still learning... This, that and the other (talk) 12:40, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

I tried to fix the language headings for tru by moving the Pyu (Myanmar) section, but it won't let me! All it says is that I hit an "img" abuse rule. I guess it has to do with how the numerals for this language are rendered?

If someone else wants to fix this for me, this Pyu language should go after Pacoh and before Sranan Tongo.

Thank you, 83.28.247.254 11:26, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

I moved it for you, but there's a bot that fixes these and there are other pages with the same issue (caused by @Mellohi! changing the language header without moving the section to the right place on the page). It would be nice if the abuse filter could tell the difference between adding content and moving it, but that would not be trivial to code. Chuck Entz (talk) 18:35, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

With some relational/possessive adjectives, the Rusyn-Serbian dictionary provides -ов(и) (-ov(i)), while the Rusyn-English dictionary prefers just -ови (-ovi). Case in point: водови (vodovi). So I think it would be good to standardize which form to use as the standard (and to link to from nouns which have it as relational), and which one to link to the standard and have in the "alternative forms" section, for adjectives where both -ov and -ovi forms exist. What do we think? I know I'm sort of asking a void since I'm pretty much the only active contributor to Pannonian, but it'd still be cool to get some input from other folks. Personally, I vote -ovi over -ov where available.

Also, if anyone is reading this and has the technical know-how to do it, it would be nice to fix the rsk-IPA template. Particularly, the handling of the spread of consonant devoicing, so будз (budz) should be not , диждж (diždž) should be not , Французка (Francuzka) should be not , and вчера (včera) should be not , just for instance. The scheme isn't totally identical to Polish; -ство (-stvo) is not for example, but most of it is pretty similar if anyone knows from that. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 04:02, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

Why does every entry I try to edit have this Category at the bottom of the page? It's only visible when editing. And they're always in red (not yet created.) What are those for? Killeroonie (talk) 05:03, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

@Killeroonie: Category:Entries with incorrect language header by language is probably relevant. I hope that helps. 0DF (talk) 05:21, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

@Killeroonie This is an artifact of the fact that the headword module Module:headword checks to see if the section it's invoked from has the right header, which is won't if you're previewing a portion of the page. Normally this category goes away when you save the page; if not, it's an actual error and you presumably misspelled the L2 section header. @Theknightwho said that at one point he'd disable the generation of this category in page preview mode. Benwing2 (talk) 07:54, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

So that was the guilty party, it was annoying when it happened. DonnanZ (talk) 10:04, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

MediaWiki message delivery 19:31, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

In the declention template of the Swedish term ID (“ID”), all terms are redirected to the Indonesian Wiktionary.

I know that the cause of this is because ID:t (“the ID”) (and so on...) is the same as linking to the Indonesian Wiktionary, but how do I prevent this? Christoffre (talk) 21:31, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

@Theknightwho Is there a way of making the unsupported title code recognize these and handle them appropriately? Benwing2 (talk) 22:50, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I'm just doing something wrong, but parameters which change the descriptions for these (def, region, fulldef) entirely do not work when used in the data modules. For example, the label Turatea at MOD:labels/data/lang/mak has

def = "most of ], and southeast ]."

and this does not show up at all on CAT:Turatea Makasar. The only way I've found to change the description is by passing parameters to auto cat itself as at Special:Diff/84679070. Saph (talk) 16:41, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

@Saph Lect fields in labels are only recognized if the parent field is set on the label. Because labels are used for multiple things, I needed a way of specifying that a given label is a lect, and I repurposed the parent field for this purpose since all lects should have it (use parent = true for top-level lects that go directly under Category:Regional Makasar or whatever). I think this is mentioned in the documentation, although probably it should be made more prominent. Benwing2 (talk) 05:43, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

I edit in Visual edit on Wikipedia and find it extraordinarily difficult and frustrating to edit in Source. The Edit button does not give me the choice to edit in Visual mode. Please place a Visual Edit button on Wiktionary. I would also like to add some citations to an entry I just made on "clobber passages". How do I add references and links to examples of the use and definition of a "clobber verse"? Do I create the citations page and then do a reference list? And can I do this in Visual edit? LPascal (talk) 05:46, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

@LPascal welcome to Wiktionary! Unfortunately VisualEditor is not available on Wiktionary (unless you turn it on in your preferences and invoke it manually by editing the URL). This is because of our heavy reliance on templates, which are cumbersome to edit using VisualEditor. Editing the source code is faster - once you know which templates to use, of course!

As for your specific question, your best shot is to follow the examples in Cat:English terms with quotations and/or Cat:English citations.

In future, the folks at WT:ID can help you out with queries of this type. This, that and the other (talk) 08:14, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

I need help to find out how to make pronoun template for proto-germanic plzzzz. Edleif (talk) 07:16, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

In the realm of Pannonian Rusyn, there are several places within Serbia which have specific dialectal words. For instance, ґришталь (grištalʹ) is only used in Kocur (rsk) or Kucura (sh). But that's what I want to ask. Коцур (Kocur) is the Pannonian name for the village which is known as Kucura in Serbo-Croatian. So if I want to make an lb label at Module:labels/data/lang/rsk, should I name it Kocur or Kucura? I'm leaning towards Kucura since at least there's a standardized way to write that name in the Serbo-Croatian Latin alphabet, whereas there doesn't exist a standard Latin transliteration system for Pannonian. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 13:08, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

There isn't a completely established practice for this. In general we prefer to use however the place is normally spelled in English, following "common practice" guidelines, which in this case probably argues for Kucura. But we normally set up aliases for alternative names, so that e.g. in this case, Kocur would be an alias for Kucura, i.e. both would work as labels and would be normalized to Kucura when displaying the label. The considerations may be different if there are political ramifications to the choice of one name over another; in that case, it might make more sense to choose the language's endonym as the canonical form. (These are of course IMO, and others may have their own views.) Benwing2 (talk) 06:10, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Good to know! Insaneguy1083 (talk) 08:30, 1 May 2025 (UTC)