User:Atitarev/2008-2010

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Please put translations of names only in a Translations section, and not in the definition of the word. --EncycloPetey 02:08, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Please see. You left out the definition. Categories should be at the end of the section. --EncycloPetey 01:07, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. --Anatoli 05:52, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Russian names are very welcome, but we don't have a clear policy on romanized names. They are sometimes frowned on. Entries like Anatoli and Kirill should be as short as possible. I have moved your translations into Anatolius and Cyril, and romanized spelling variants into Кирилл and Анатолий. If some of your translations refer to the Russian forms only, please move them into the Russian language entries as "Descendants" .

I don't know what to do with Nadezhda, though.It doesn't really have a true English form. If it derives from modern Russian, the translations could be put into the Russian entry as "Descendants", but I have the awful feeling it might derive from Old Church Slavonic or something similar - we'd have to wait until somebody makes an entry in that language.--Makaokalani 15:59, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

I am going away for a few days. Will discuss then. Nadezhda is obviously a pure Russian name, not Old Church Slavonic. Anatoli 19:05, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi EncycloPetey,

I undid large deletes from these 2 articles (Anatoli, Kirill) done by another user. Please check. Anatoli 21:01, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

The material probably should not have been deleted, but I understand why the anon made the deleions. It looks fine to revert the change as long as all the alternative spellings exist in English forms of the name. --EncycloPetey 03:49, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Anatoli, I created the template {{ru-adj11}} that we discussed, and tried to analyze and mark the way the different forms are used, but it still does not seem to be correct. Please have a look and see if you can make it more correct and easier to understand. —Stephen 14:19, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Stephen. I was planning of doing but didn't get around. Today I may be busy but I'll check when I have a chance. I am not used to the templates yet, please bear with me. Actually, Христов (Christ's) is declined as an adjective, not as a surname.

I will use an example to show what's correct. I can edit it myself or you can do it if you wish.

In Медведев the correct endings for masculine singular are:

instrumental case: Медве́девым

prepositional case: о Медве́деве

The neuter is not used with surnames (understandably) but if it is a place name (Медве́дево - Medvedevo - a village name), then Медве́девом (neuter, instrumental) would be the correct form in the instrumental case. Perhaps, there should be a note, as surnames in neuter are never used. Note the difference with the masculine surname.

The accusative of the surname (masc., singular) - Медве́дева only, as we are talking about people.

The plural form of the accusative is Медве́девых for the same reason.

Feminine -ою is never used with feminine surnames. It doesn't sound natural (e.g. с Ивановою), although it's only my native language feeling. May need to check some other sources.

In Христов the endings are opposite to Медведев, i.e. the correct ones are: Христо́вом (Inst., m. sg), о Христо́вом (Prep., m, sg), etc.

Looks like we have some work to do!

--Anatoli 21:52, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I corrected Медведев and Христов to reflect what you said. How do they seem? —Stephen 04:07, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Looks good! Thank you. Some users say, that neutral place names tend to become undeclinable. I don't quite agree but I noticed this trend. Some people say "о Рождестве́ Христо́ве" instead of "о Рождестве́ Христо́вом", which you confirm in google but this doesn't seem correct either. The reason for this common error is that possessive pronouns for some names are used much less often than genitive constructions, e.g. it's more common to say "машина Павла" than "Павлова машина". Hope I haven't confused you more. Can animate/inanimate be removed from ru-adj11? Russian grammar is really hard even for native speakers. I am double-checking again about instrumental case for neuter place names on a forum. --Anatoli 04:17, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I was amazed at the number of discussions about declinable / undeclinable - Иваново, Шереметьево, etc. Unable to find some solid sources for the moment. --Anatoli 05:45, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

We generally do not label entries or translations as "Chinese" because there are many Chinese languages. So, in your edit to sit and stand, could you specify which Chinese language you mean? --EncycloPetey 06:11, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't mind splitting as I have seen in some cases (far from consistent). It is Mandarin or Standard Chinese, of course. Shouldn't the split happen if someone decides to add Cantonese, Egyptian Arabic and other dialects of a language? Anatoli 09:36, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I'll see if I can find something. Right now, I niether, have Arabic input nor can I view Arabic, but I'll check later. Hakeem.gadi 06:01, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Hakeem. I received a message that will be back up soon. For inputting Arabic (apart from standard), I use - a great tool. Anatoli 06:04, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi, you have split the translation into two, moving Russian translations into city section? The translations are identical for the city and the first names, there was no need to split into two but if you do, do it cleaner, please :). Anatoli 21:44, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Two definitions should never be combined in a translation table. We cannot know if they are the same in every language of the world. Did you check each placename you added? The Spanish Wikipedia calls the city Vladímir, you say Vladimiro. The given name translations were added by an anon on 13 January 2009. They could be wrong. I had no time to check them, so I only put in the Russian one, trusting you had got it right.

The Danish cognate of this Slavonic name is Valdemar, but Lenin and Putin and the city are Vladimir in Denmark. Given name "translations" may be cognates or transliterations, but translations of transliterations is going a bit too far...You and Stephen G. Brown had a lively discussion on the talk page of Kirill. Here is some more discussion. My solution would be that transliterations are "Translingual", with a minimal entry, and they be listed as "Descendants" of the original word (Владимир), not in English translation tables. I never knew how complicated names can be until I joined the Wktionary:)--Makaokalani 14:06, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

I was going to post a message giving you credit for the work involved in creating Transwiki talk:List of Chinese exonyms for places in Japan, but I immediately learned that you'd already discovered this curious anomaly. No worries. --Tenmei 22:03, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. 恐れ入ります。 哪里哪里。 :) It's worth reformatting it to look better (table). The two East Asian languages (Japanese and Chinese Mandarin) + Arabic have been my main interest for a few now. BTW, you don't have a talk or user page. Anatoli 22:09, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Привет. Я вполне понимаю ваше желание упростить статью и хотя я ожидал, что кто-то из сербских участников возразит первым, получилось, что это я. Скажите, почему вы удалили первую дефиницию как A former region of the Republic of Serbia? Имея ввиду позицию большинства русских, да и в общем-то большинства славян, я действительно ошеломлен фактом, что именно участник из России удалил A former region of the Republic of Serbia. Тем не менее, все государства вне ООН (как это) остаются регионами каких-то других государств, несмотря на наше отношение к этому. The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 13:48, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Привет. Извините, если обидел, Bogorm. Честно говоря не помню, зачем удалил, может быть по ошибке. Хотя моё отношение к Косово (к Косову?), подобно Абхазии и Южной Осетии - рано или поздно их признают, причём Сербия признает Косово, раньше России. Если вы не заметили, я повысил статус Сухуми и Цхинвали (новая статья) на английском до столицы. Я не буду менять определение Косова (Косова). Этот вопрос очень чувствительный, и не хотелось бы его сильно политизировать. Кстати, недавно вёл беседу по поводу склоняемости, как вы считаете, нужно ли и можно ли склонять Косово? Я добавил комментарий, что можно не склонять, хотя похоже на практике, как раз реже склоняют по-русски. Anatoli 21:32, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Раз это произошло невзначай, я не могу сердиться. Я целиком поддерживаю то, что вы сделали с Сухуми и Цхинвали. Я бы предпочел не высказываться насчет склоняемости слова Косово, я всего болгарин, учивший русский язык, но сколь бы прилежно ни учил, я не осмеливаюсь вмешиваться в этот вопрос. The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 21:50, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Common usage? Saw a KGB general say it, how is it written? User:Mallerd (Zeg et es meisje) 15:30, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi. I replied in Talk:товарищ. Anatoli 23:27, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi, I notice you're adding a lot of translations, would you like to try user_talk:Conrad.Irwin/editor.js which can make edits like without needing to edit the wikitext directly? If not, just ignore me, if so I'd be interested to know your opinion of it. Conrad.Irwin 23:52, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, Conrad.Irwin. It looks interesting but I haven't quite understood how to use it. I'll read the description and I will try it later. Not promising that I will use it but thank you anyway, you seem you have done some work here. Anatoli 00:09, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Note that you can easily add multiple translations at once using editor.js. You don't need to save every time after adding a translation. -- Prince Kassad 10:49, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, Prince Kassad. That will reduce the number of edits. Sometimes I still use the conventional editing. Anatoli 11:08, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Anatoli: Normally I have been adding the transliterations. And yes, the system you suggested is the best option, I agree. It's much faster to add transliterations than can be typed using a normal English keyboard. It's not the prettiest system, but it gets the job done. We have a chance to create a great translation resource for under-served languages like Arabic, and I'd say we are already half way there. --Aghniyya 09:05, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Oh, one thing: Please don't add a "t" in paratheses after taa marbuuta (ة). That really is overkill and it's very uncommon in any transliteration system (I've never seen it, and I'm a graduate student). If a person wants to simply pronounce a word and doesn't know Arabic, you don't need a (t). If they are going to use it, they will need a knowledge of Arabic grammar to know when the "t" is added anyway, and any knowledge of Arabic grammar presumes a knowledge of Arabic script. In short, I like your transliteration suggestion because it is simply and gets the job done. This is an unneeded complication. --Aghniyya 09:09, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

One more comment. I much prefer the usual qalam system of distinguishing between hamza and ayn. The "3" is baffling to non-Arabs, who are the target audience of these translations. I certainly learned the Arabic alphabet years before I learned that 3 means ع. Thus ' and ` are better choices. They match their respective letters and are not confusing for neophytes. --Aghniyya 09:16, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, you missed the discussion to which I invited you but you didn't join (http://en.wiktionary.orghttps://dictious.com/en/Wiktionary_talk:About_Arabic#Romanization_proposal). I had the same reservations against 3 and I am not so happy about -a(t) either but I wanted to be consistent, so that we establish some rules and follow them. The rules were suggested by User:Beru7. Please reignite the discussion if you are not happy. Anatoli 10:33, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Hi Atitarev, I added some Chinese definitions of big shot using your template, does that look right to you? Cheers - Tooironic 05:11, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, looks right. I sometimes use "assisted" translations to get something like

• {{t|zh|酒店|tr=jiǔdiàn}} produces 酒店 (jiǔdiàn). This entry is linked to the Chinese Wiktionary.

But I move from "Mandarin" to "Chinese". Cantonese, etc. dialects usually go underneath "Chinese" with prefix :* for tabulation. The Chinese methods are far from perfect here and people seem to disagree on many things.

{{zh-tsp|旅館|旅馆|lǚguǎn}} produces trad. 旅館／旅馆 (lǚguǎn), simpl. 旅馆 (lǚguǎn) (pinyin: lǚguǎn) Anatoli 05:56, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Please do not edit {{zh}} again before bringing this to discussion e.g. at WT:BP. DAVilla 20:23, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Regarding the translation of East Slavic,

Ukrainian руський, in various contexts, is a translation of Rus’ or Rusian, Ruthenian, Old Russian, Old East Slavic, common East Slavic, and also just East Slavic.

Examples:

• Magocsi 1996, p 100: “. . . or was it preceded by a period during which there existed a common East Slavic or Rus’ language, from which in turn, Ukrainian Belarusan, and Russian subsequently developed?”—Ukrainian: “руська мова.”
• Kort 2006, p 8: “During the ninth century the first East Slavic state developed along what was called the river road, . . .”—Ukrainian “руська держава.”

 —Michael Z. 2009-05-18 05:01 z

But this is all referring to the old Русь, which happens to be East Slavic. The term itself doesn't refer to the East Slavic languages. I'll have a look at your source. Also, the main reason why I removed it, руський has a somewhat negative modern connotation in Ukrainian (despite its origin), meaning Russian, is used instead of both російський or more commonly (ethnic) росіянин. In Ukraine, most people would think about this meaning first. Please consider the connotation before restoring, Michael. Otherwise, it would need to be commented with sources. Anatoli 05:11, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I did revert before I read your note, but willing to discuss.

I've always thought of selections for the Translations section to be chosen like the Synonyms section: all possible translations belong there, interpreted broadly. Тhe definition including connotation, any qualifiers, and usage notes would appear in the relevant entries.

I've grown up speaking the language in Canada, its roots being in western Ukraine, and руський doesn't carry a connotation of “Russian” among Canadian Ukrainian-speakers (I presume because most of them don't speak Russian at all, and are unaware of русский, in contrast to Ukrainophones in Ukraine).

I consider Ukrainian руський to be a very close synonym to English Old East Slavic. I think the question here is whether we accept that East Slavic means Old East Slavic in a historical context. —Michael Z. 2009-05-18 05:32 z

My preference is to mark it as historical, otherwise, it is the same as teaching users that the Russian word for Jew is жид, which is historically OK but not currently. The word жид is still used in literature but it is a taboo outside the linguistic class. руський is not as abusive as жид and not by all speakers, it is still used by Rusyns to refer to their own language and often by some uneducated Ukrainians or Cossacks (who mix Russian and Ukrainian) just to mean Russian (without any connotation). Anatoli 05:38, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't know if our policy is to include context labels in translations or rely totally on entries, but I have no problem with it. On the other hand, this is obviously a complex explanation, and it would take a full entry to do justice to either of these examples. (Note that this one is historical, meaning we may use it when discussing history, but the example жид is obsolete as far as I understand, meaning we don't use it any more—although the concepts do overlap) —Michael Z. 2009-05-18 05:50 z

Привет. Помогите, пожалуйста, найти правильное написание имени Яхуд (Yahud ?) (рус. Иуда) на арабском - нужно для ciufut#Etymology и Шаблон:этимология:чифут. Кроме того, согласно одному лингвистическому труду тур. слово происходит из какого-то арабского диалекта, где оно звучит ğehud, но я не разбираюсь в арабском письме. The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 16:51, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Привет, я в арабском не настолько силён. Вот что нашёл. Иуда по-арабски يهوذا (yahuudhaa), а يهودي (yahuudiy) - еврей, множественное число - يهود (yahuud). Заметьте, что там разные согласные в первом и втором слове ذ и د. Не понял, в чём разница между Judas и Judah, по-русски оба слова Иуда. Добавил арабский (и другие) перевод в Judah. Anatoli 21:57, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

noun:make-up;)

Hi, I have noticed that you edited "upload". I am a Simplified Chinese speaker, and "上传" and "下载" is used in Simplified Chinese. In Tranditional, they use "上載". Sometimes, "上載" will be simplified into "上载"， but it's rare.--Dingar 07:04, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

The convention here is to use traditional, simplified with pinyin (if they are different). There is an agreement how this should be displayed. If you prefer to highlight which one is which, you can use trad. 上載／上载, simpl. 上载 (pinyin: shàngzài) but it becomes crowded if there are too many translations. Anatoli 05:15, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Как поговорка 'live and let live' по-русски? Жить и ... жить. Что 'let' по-русски? Hope I wrote it well. Just because you said we could contact you in Russian. I haven't learned and tried to speak Russian for about a year ;) Last attempts in December. Ferike333 14:51, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

You can say: "живи и дай жить другим", I added the translation in live and let live. Anatoli 19:50, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Ah, you have it a bit different. I had it totally wrong, didn't use the imperative form above... I thought of zhit ili ne zhit. Thanks for adding it. What is the literal meaning of the other one given in the entry? It seems to be too hard to understand for me. Ferike333 20:25, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

"сам живи и другим жить не мешай" means literally - live (you) yourself and don't impede others to live. Anatoli 21:00, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Spasibo. Ferike333 10:13, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

When used as a L3 header, this should precede Etymology, as noted in WT:ELE. --EncycloPetey 00:55, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining and fixing. Anatoli 00:59, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Cheers, Tooironic 02:07, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Check it out, I used that little trick you taught me hehe! :) Tooironic 23:23, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Cool, a nice entry too! Anatoli 23:50, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

used2clean here=tw,ijust burnt myskin w/it[rubin2hard igues--isearched4hrs..:(

• styrofoam was sugested,butnolook_expandedPS..--史凡>voice-MSN/skypeme!RSI>typin=hard! 10:26, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, Sven, I couldn't find this word. This must be a brand name used in Taiwan? Anatoli 21:52, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

ta-mite be--evrytw kno it tho-dict.s soo bad,我好挫折。。 嘉義-braveNv.gud as useflentry!!--史凡>voice-MSN/skypeme!RSI>typin=hard! 00:32, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't understand much, even if I try. I added Jiayi as an alternative spelling to Chiayi and a simplified form 嘉义 for 嘉義, as it is referred to by mainland China and some sources. I realise there is a lot of resistance to hanyu pinyin in Taiwan (even after Jan 2009) and non-acceptance of jiantizi. Anatoli 01:45, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

yes,wel infrmd!-unles like fe w/變when usd by ja[ucan c jianti here if jpnese use it;+som ofmy kindagivn books R i/non-standed pinyin:( a.Kaohsiung<BADpy!!--noget-whichword/groups?

• but notmine :(--史凡>voice-MSN/skypeme!RSI>typin=hard! 04:13, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

I tried to understand but gave up. Sorry!!! I only understood "why, well informed". I am not reading Chinese articles much, my level is enough for short stories I read, focusing on jiantizi. Recently started parallel reading of manga in Japanese and Chinese (in fantizi) but I am a bit too slow. Don't understand your question/comment about 變 and Kaohsiung at all. --Anatoli 05:35, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

u use reader~MDGB?--史凡>voice-MSN/skypeme!RSI>typin=hard! 07:33, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

No, I don't use it but I use similar tools - e.g. Firefox plugins. I've got Wenlin on desktop and a number of dictionaries on my pocket PC. Anatoli 21:49, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Firefox plugins-which1s usefl pl?--史凡>voice-MSN/skypeme!RSI>typin=hard! 01:35, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

For Chinese I use - Chinese Perapera-kun, it's pretty good better than others. There were some issues with some versions of Firefox but it's fixable. Anatoli 03:23, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Anatoli, thanks so much for helping me with заклёпка--Rosswood40 09:21, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

You are welcome, Rosswood40. --Anatoli 09:28, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Do you think you might be able to contribute a Russian or German translation of the Wiktionary logo vote page? --Yair rand 05:16, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Is this just one page or more? I am a bit confused about where to start - what's the name of the Russian page, is there a template? Can this be the address of the Russian page: ? I could perhaps, have a go at Russian, as I haven't done translations into German in many years. If this is required urgently, then I won't be able to do it. Please advise how soon it's required. --Anatoli 05:38, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that is the correct address. There is no deadline for this; it's likely that the other translations won't be complete for quite a while so there's no rush. Thanks. --Yair rand 05:49, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Nice work so far on the Russian voting page. The voting has been scheduled to begin December 7th so it looks like there is a deadline after all (sorry). After you're finished the voting page, could you also notify the Russian Wiktionary of the schedule (full schedule was announced in the beer parlour) and provide them with a link to the voting page? Thanks. --Yair rand 04:32, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I think I've got enough time, thanks for letting me know. If you have an example of a notification in other languages, please give me a link. Anatoli 21:21, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I think best would be a translation of the notice I gave in the beer parlour, except without the sentence suggesting adding a translation, because I don't think voting pages translated from other translations are a good idea. Thanks. --Yair rand 22:22, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Just a reminder that the vote starts in less than a week and the ru voting page still needs finishing. I hope you didn't forget about it ;-) --Yair rand 16:51, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, I remember. Anatoli 21:20, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't mean to rush you, but the vote begins in less than three days... --Yair rand 04:55, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, Yair rand, I procrastinated. Will try to finish when I can. --Anatoli 05:43, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi Atitarev, I've noticed you added the Hungarian translation for the above. What was your source? To my knowledge, the most frequent spelling is szálem alejkum. --Panda10 23:20, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I used Google search but I saw yours as well. I have added your translation. If you think szalam alejkum is incorrect, pls remove. --Anatoli 23:27, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

My Hungarian foreign words dictionary spells it szálem alejkum. Since I am not sure about the other, I will remove it for now. --Panda10 00:51, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Do you know what "Click here to vote" is in ru? The logo vote starts in 20 minutes and we don't have a translation for that. --Yair rand 23:41, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

It's "Нажмите здесь, чтобы проголосовать." (I used "щёлкните" - same as "нажмите"). Is anything still missing? --Anatoli 23:44, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Nope. Is the period part of it? --Yair rand 23:48, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

No the period is not, the comma is. Anatoli 23:49, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi there Atitarev. I'd like to ask you a bit about what you do for your job. I'll send you an email. It sounds interesting, so I'd like to learn more about it. Razorflame 01:45, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi. My current job doesn't have anything to do with human languages, unfortunately! --Anatoli 01:47, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Previous career is what I meant >_> Razorflame 01:48, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Привет, Анатолий. Ты мог бы проверить недавно созданную мною страницу заблудиться в трёх соснах? Я ее создал для Wiktionary:Christmas Competition 2009. Я околдован русской фразеологией, однако я гораздо хуже разбираюсь в английской, поэтому наверное существует и лучший перевод этой фразы. The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 18:58, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Привет, Bogorm. Проверил. Переводить идиомы не так просто, но кажется мой вариант лучше подойдёт. Я также исправил транслитерацию. --Anatoli 21:11, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for you message! In russian wiktionary, we don't have a lot of active users (4-6 i thik) :) You make it right, so don't worry about low activity in voting page on meta. We will vote :) --Grenadine 13:28, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Большое спасибо, Grenadine! --Anatoli 19:02, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi Anatoli ! Please stop removing perfectly fine vowel marks from translations. They are actually useful to arabic people who learnt them in school and are not used to seeing transliterated text. Thank you. Beru7 14:07, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi Beru7. Are you here to stay? Why do Arabic people need to see vowel marks if they are not used in the real world? The transliteration is more precise (e.g. for foreign words) and shows variants where more than one reading is possible. Tashkiil blocks some letters, may impede rather than help reading at times. Besides, as I have been a lot of translations for quite some time, this is my approach, I'd like to keep the translations consistent. A dictionary normally use one or the other way of providing the phonetic guide, not both (see Hans Wehr), the English dictionaries use the transliteration in Roman letters. The entries may contain both forms as the most common form is also visible. ----

Hi ! I would agree with you except that a word without vowel marks can only be understood in context ! without context how can you tell if كتب is كُتُب or كَتَبَ ? if it were me there would be no transliteration, but it's not just about me ! at least, this would need to be properly discussed before changing anything that has been done and is correct. Beru7 19:53, 6 January 2010 (UTC) (and yes, vowel marks are very much used in the real world: open any arabic-only grammar or dictionary and see for yourself)

Beru7, in the real world (where Arabic is used, not taught) only كتب is written, which can be pronounced as kutub, kutubu, kataba, katab or kotob, for which there is the transliteration to help the learner with any background, even without the knowledge of the Arabic script. The English entry itself and the part of speech is another helper to determine the context - verb "kataba" or noun "kutub". Textbooks and grammar references are not the real world and methods to show the pronunciation vary, and this is not an Arabic only dictionary. We are not using the full vocalisation either, providing the pausal forms only, not showing the case endings. For dialects tashkiil would make even less sense, since we it doesn't distinguish between e/i, o/u, ee/ii, oo/uu pairs but the romanisation does!

I don't want to upset you or other fellow contributors but I don't know how we can come to a consensus. What if we have entries without tashkiil but inside have some tashkiil in the examples but leave the translations without them? I am not creating many Arabic entries but I will continue to add translations to the English entries. it must be frustrating for you see your work changed but as I said I am trying to be consistent. Besides tashkiil being cluttered I don't think it's easy to enter. Persian and Urdu translations don't use tashkiil either (the overwhelming majority).

Another thought. Conjugations would be much more readable and user-friendly and easier to create if they were written in Roman letters but the Arabic would be written as it is normally written, e.g.: تتكلم tatakállam(u) "you (m) speak" and تتكلمين tatakallamiin(a) "you (f) speak", the Roman script also allows to show optional or helping vowels, which you can't do with the tashkiil. Anatoli 22:09, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

You really have to look at other dictionaries than the Wehr, Anatoli. Most of them show diacritics and no transliteration (Wortabet, Al Mawrid, the Lane Lexicon, the Larousse are just a few examples). For the simple reason that transliteration is useful only to people who learnt latin script first. For people who learnt arabic script first, transliteration is unnatural, and vowel marks are what they're used to in the context of a dictionary. If we can be useful to both why shouldn't we ?

Regarding pronunciation, the right way to show pronunciation is with audio and IPA transcription, not transliteration.

While a consensus is not reached (and this is not the place to reach one) I kindly ask you to leave my work as it is - as long as it isn't erroneous of course. Beru7 11:38, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

OK, Beru7, I will leave your work as it is. Anatoli 12:06, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Hey thanks for tackling this for me. I guess some people actually take notice of my user page? Haha. Catch up soon! Tooironic 10:12, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi, why did you create this category, since its empty. Does Tbot plan to start doing Persian soon? Mglovesfun (talk) 11:44, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

This is a good idea, since Persian Wiktionary has a significant number of Persian entries and almost all of them contain the English translation. The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 12:27, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't see why it won't, as long as there are entries in the FL, it could generate entries. Anatoli 12:30, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

But Robert Ullmann has to set it up himself; Tbot has to learn to read the Persian Wiktionary, and some Wiktionaries are easier to read than others. We only have 10 Spanish Tbot entries, compared to 2000 in French and in German. So unless Ullmann has already written some code for this, or plans to, this category may be empty for months or years. Mglovesfun (talk) 18:33, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

OK, I see. I'll ask him. --Anatoli 23:23, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Привет. Would you be interested in becoming an administrator? The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 14:40, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Привет. Yes, I can consider this. --Anatoli 14:44, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

You need to accept here. The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 15:09, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for nominating me. --Anatoli 15:26, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Welcome to sysophood. Please add an entry at Wiktionary:Administrators.

May I ask that you always have a second session open on Recent Changes whenever you are editing Wiktionary. You may mark good edits as "patrolled", revert vandalism and stupidity by either deleting new entries or by using the "rollback" function. You may block vandals at your own discretion.

Note: As there are times when no sysop is active, it would be useful if you start your patrolling from the time you last left the system. Cheers. SemperBlotto 19:31, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, SemperBlotto. How do I patrol edits? I mean, if I agree with the edit, how do I mark? --Anatoli 22:28, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

No worries, I figured this out. --Anatoli 22:29, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi there Atitarev. I noticed that you did not add a transliteration for the Kannada translation of Malayalam, so I've transliterated it for you: malayāḷaṁ Feel free to add it to the page if you so desire. If not, that's alright, too :). I just thought that I'd help you since it did not seem like you knew how to transliterate Kannada :) Cheers, Razorflame 01:44, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Razorflame. I have no skills in Malayalam, I added the translation from Wikipedia after double-checking it. If you don't mind, please add a transliteration for Kannada translation of Russia and Moscow. --Anatoli 02:18, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I can't add them myself, but I can give them to you to add :) Cheers, Razorflame 02:18, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, please. Why can't you add them yourself? --Anatoli 02:20, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

User:Razorflame/Promise. I'll give you the Russia transliteration after I talk with Stephen G. to see if it is right. I don't want you to add an incorrect transliteration, so I'll leave a note for Stephen G. to see if it is right. Cheers, Razorflame 02:24, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I got the Moscow transliteration as māskē, not māsko. Cheers, Razorflame 02:35, 9 February 2010 (UTC) Never mind. I got it as what you have it as. Razorflame 02:36, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

My source: GEONAMES. --Anatoli 02:38, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Yep, I misread a symbol, which is why I got the wrong transliteration. I corrected it, and you got it right, so :) Razorflame 02:39, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't blame you, thanks, anyway, and for your vote. --Anatoli 02:41, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm still in the process of becoming better at transliterating Kannada. I've been working on it for about a month now, and my error rate is about 12.5% currently. I hope to get that down to 0% or like .5% soon, so I'll keep on working on it. Cheers, Razorflame 02:47, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Want me to get the Kannada translit for the Kannada translation you added to Assamese? Razorflame 22:45, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, please. You don't have to ask. Transliterations are important. I also added Konkani. Will Kannada pronunciation be something like as'sāmīs and koṅkaṇi? You may want to start Wiktionary:About_Kannada similar to Wiktionary:About_Hindi and other languages. --Anatoli 22:53, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do about that Wiktionary:About page, but I cannot promise anything. I can't tell you what the transliterations for the two Kannada terms will be yet because I need to do it first. I'll let you know what I come up with when I am done. It should only take maybe 5-8 minutes tops. Cheers, Razorflame 23:37, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

You can have it as an ongoing project, start with small things, things you're sure of. Others will add. Check for existing standard Kannada transliterations, if they don't exist, you can make one as Wikitionary convention. Note that I am not skilled in Kannada, you'd better ask somewhere else. Also, check other About pages, they may be much better than Hindi and they will give ideas what needs to be included. May I ask why Kannada? --Anatoli 23:43, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I've added the transliteration to Konkani, because I was very sure that it was right (99.9%). The transliteration that I got for Assamese was assāmīs, but I am less sure about that one. I'll have to ask Stephen about that one to make sure it is right before it gets added. Cheers, Razorflame 23:59, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

I also added the transliteration for Asssamese, too. Stephen said it was right (the version I told him about), so it is added now :) Cheers, Razorflame 11:33, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

I want to make this entry, and several of my online sources tell me that this means to dig, to rupture, and to run. Am I correct in believing this to be true? Thanks, Razorflame 11:32, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Only the first two. --Anatoli 11:40, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Heh...the skeleton entry I made is very, very bare of information. Maybe you could spice it up for me? Don't worry, I won't be adding Russian anymore....too difficult...so many related terms and synonyms...makes my head spin :o Razorflame 17:26, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

I added the perfective verb. However, I refrained from adding a conjugation template, as I am not sure which templates you præfer for the conjugation. Is Template:ru-verb-1 suitable? The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 18:16, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, I was bold and added a template (Template:ru-conj-ать) which I picked up from Category:Russian inflection templates. How do you find it? The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 18:20, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

I had some trouble understanding the etymology and still do, as it seems to be related to 2 different verbs and their roots, they seem unrelated to me - рыть and рвать, I am not happy with the Russian wiki's explanation. Stephen Brown has fixed the entry. I don't work much with new Russian entries, focusing on translations and checks. Stephen is more comfortable with conjugation and declension tables too (he has created many). Other users who could help: Vahagn Petrosyan and Wanjuscha. Anatoli 22:40, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

You see those two Hindi words in the Most wanted articles? I really would like them filled in, but since I know no Hindi, I thought that you might be the best person to ask. I got the translations of must and would for them, but I won't add them because I have no idea if they are right. You'll probably have a much better idea of what it means. Cheers, Razorflame 18:22, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Please tell me more exactly what you mean by the Most wanted articles. I'll have a look but may not be today. I'm going to be busy today. --Anatoli 19:03, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

(deprecated template usage) होगा and (deprecated template usage) होता: These two words. They are bugging me on the wanted articles at the top of the Recent Changes. You think you could add them? Razorflame 21:32, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

My Hindi level is low but I'll have a look more closely later. I haven't created Hindi entries, especially for verbs and other words, which have flections (words in Hindi change), only a couple of proper names using existing templates. The first word is must. I've seen references and examples of usage and already added as a translation. I prefer not to create entries in Hindi, since I don't know its grammar well. For the same reason, I don't encourage you to create entries in Russian for the moment :) The words are pronounced hōgā and hōtā. Which page do you see these words in? BTW, your "term" templates link to hi. --Anatoli 23:04, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Yep, must is what Google translate said was the first word. Google translate said that the second word was want...but I doubt what GT puts out. (I don't use it often). These words appear up top the Recent Changes, where all the Wanted Entries are. They are furthest to the right. Cheers, Razorflame 23:53, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Is it this one Wiktionary:project-wanted_entries? --Anatoli 00:03, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Yep. Razorflame 00:04, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Hey there, Atitarev...Kannada doesn't use uppercase letters in its' transliterations, and I am pretty sure that Telugu doesn't, either. Razorflame 04:56, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, OK, I'll keep this in mind. I was just copying existing transliterations (same as before) and wikified. Occasionally I copied transliterations of place names from Wikipedia. --Anatoli 05:20, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

No problems =D Cheers, Razorflame 05:26, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

If you want, you can include Kannada translations in your extensive list of translations that you add for place names, and I can come around and add the transliterations for them unless you just want me to do the whole process by myself? I'm more partial to the adding the Kannada translations with transliterations for place names at my own pace...I'm currently behind about 25 entries (all the waterfall translations, all the lake translations, three place names, and all the clay translations), so I should probably work on finishing those off before I add more, but if you want to go ahead and continue adding them (without transliterations (because I can come by and add them)), I would be fine with that, but as I said before, I like working at my own pace. Razorflame 01:26, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

No worries, I'll keep that in mind. I am almost done with "Category:India" (only working with states, union territories, large cities - over a million, and state capitals), so won't be adding many new translations but you can go through the category and add yourself or work with other place names - country names would be a good start. A translation without transliteration is acceptable too, if it's correct - you can always add the transliteration later, when you are sure. You are more than welcome to do it yourself, just remember that it has to be correct. I am less likely to add translations into languages I have no idea about, like Kannada. I only added a couple of Kannada translations, which I was sure about and they were related to the area where Kannada is spoken or wikified (changed the format of the translations) existing translations. Anatoli 01:36, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Yep, I only add translations and transliterations for words that I am sure are correct. Yeah, the only time that I could see myself only adding a translation without a transliteration is if I have a very hard time with the transliteration, or if I am waiting for someone to verify that it is correct. Yeah, I've mainly been working through common words in addition to place names, so I'll probably get around to them eventually =D Razorflame 01:50, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Common words are more important here and is the focus of Wiktionary. They may require more work too. Some people don't like having many place names, so don't worry if you don't get around to them. --Anatoli 01:55, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I have my hands full with other common words like forest (which has somewheres around 15-19 or so different Kannada words that mean forest (different senses)), and works like lake (with six synonyms), waterfall (with five synonyms), to scatter (8 total words meaning to scatter) and other such words. It is very amazing how many synonyms I've been finding for Kannada words :o. Razorflame 01:58, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Hallo Atitarev,

I am pleased to hear that you would like to help us with Russian names. I will surely remember you for such help. I will also be pleased to help you with any problems regarding Devanagari, Hindi and India. I fully agree that Rusuuan material is very low in Hindi wiki. The problem is with English. We are blind to other languages, cultures and nations due to dominance of English in our education system. Talk:Anunad Singh

Would love to hear your opinion @ Category_talk:Mandarin_idioms_in_simplified_script. Cheers. Tooironic 12:10, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Carl. I have no opinion yet on this but will reply when I do. Added the talk page to the watchlist to read more on this. --Anatoli 01:16, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks...I will try to stick to the correct procedures in future.--达伟 11:09, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Also, I'm sorry about the dadao / daoda thing --达伟 11:15, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

No problem at all. --Anatoli 11:50, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Can you indefinitely fully protect this page please? It won't be changing and I don't want anyone else to change it. Thanks, Razorflame 01:16, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Done, hopefully, I've done correctly. I haven't protected pages before. --Anatoli 01:23, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it was done right. Razorflame 00:50, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Wow, you're really something! :) ---> Tooironic 12:23, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

You are welcome. :) --Anatoli 18:46, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your efforts on the Teochew page!--达伟 23:40, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

You are welcome. The deep nesting on Teochew won't allow assisted translations. Besides, Teochew doesn't seem to have code, not here, anyway. Perhaps because it is a subset of Min Nan. --Anatoli 23:48, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi. Just had two separate questions. First, even though no one has posted any reponses on the Requested Deletion page, it seems that we are keeping 漫談 and 萬國 (the Chinese entries I mean)? No one has objected, and definitions are provided. Also, do you think the article 阿山 should be deleted (I do)? Thanks!--达伟 08:16, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

I'd say keep. I don't know Min Nan. User:A-cai knows it. I don't see any obvious reason to delete them. --Anatoli 06:16, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, my point regarding 阿山 is the following. The "阿" symbol can be used in front of someone's name as a mark of familiary, informality. It can be used in front of ANY name or nickname. Thus, unless 阿山 has a special meaning, it is absolutely inapppropriate to have this as an entry/article, as much as if we created an article for "阿达伟" or "阿Atitarev".--达伟 10:06, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I consider this a pet name. 阿 can't be added to any name, it can only be added to some one-syllable first names to form a new form of a first name. 阿山 is a form of a name and this info may be useful. I would flag it for requiring attention, not for delete. Please double-check with A-cai and Tooironic or bring it up in Beer parlour. --Anatoli 10:14, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I realize it cannot (generally) but used with just any name, but it seems more or less like a generic particle, there are hundred of possible combinations. I left a note on A-cai's board...--达伟 00:17, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi. I just responded at http://en.wiktionary.orghttps://dictious.com/en/Wiktionary:Beer_parlour#Minnan.2FTaiwanese. Thanks--达伟 10:14, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi. I have replied too. --Anatoli 22:22, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I replied to your response :) But I'm certainly not in a hurry...I don't think much movement will take place on Wu and/or Min Nan entries for a long time; I agree we should prioritize Mandarin and I speak zero Wu or Min Nan at the moment anyway. I do, however, personally feel it would be valuable to have (people would then be able to learn said languages more easily, etc.)--达伟 00:15, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the offer. I might take you up on that offer at some later point in time, and I agree with you that Bulgarian and Russian are just way too hard for me to write entries in those languages....I think I will follow your advice and post words to the requested translations page ;)

Right now, I'm working through learning Finnish declensions (going very slowly, only able to declense solakka, risti, nainen, and vanhempi words with precision), but I'm steadily learning :)

Thanks again for the offer of help, Razorflame 01:12, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

I am going to send you an email in about a minute. Please reply to it as quick as you can :) Thanks, Razorflame 04:08, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Hi was just curious on your thoughts...do you think we should try to introduce the format used on German Wiktionary for the hanzi/character entries--kind of like a standardized "infobox" (example: http://de.wiktionary.orghttps://dictious.com/en/%E8%99%AB). Just curious on your thoughts!--达伟 13:56, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Hi. Thank you. It looks interesting but what are you suggesting? Having additional info would be nice but it seems like a lot of work. --Anatoli 11:17, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Hi Anatoli,

If you visit, for example, Special:Undelete/peel grapes, and scroll down to "Page history", you should see a list of past versions, each with a link to the edit-diff and a link to the raw wikitext. If you click the link to the raw wikitext, you'll also find "Show preview" and "Show changes" buttons (the latter showing you the same thing as the link to the diff).

(Note that the page history can be a bit messy if there have been page merges and/or multiple deletions, since the software has no regard for which revisions were created by editing which other revisions. So you can get weird diffs like Special:Undelete/graph cycle?timestamp=20100107150429&diff=prev; that one actually represents a deletion followed by a re-creation-from-scratch.)

—Ruakh_TALK 17:40, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, Ruakh, very useful info! --Anatoli 19:39, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Do you think that this would be worth adding to the English Wiktionary? Razorflame 20:59, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't see why it can't be, as a preposition, if you fix the spelling to in contrast to like according to or as opposed to. --Anatoli 22:54, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

We don't normally block IP's infinitely because IP's change quite regularly anyway. I understand your concern, we block User:Verbo for similar reason quite recently. May I suggest 3 months, and give a reason in the summary as well? Mglovesfun (talk) 22:58, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

OK, this was the same user who kept generating new IP's, I thought I'd explain if required. Can one change the block now? --Anatoli 23:12, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

FYI, you should remember not to include tone sandhi in translations. ---> Tooironic 09:31, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

And that goes for I don't speak Chinese, et al. ---> Tooironic 09:32, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

OK. --Anatoli 09:34, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

It's considered bad form to speedy delete stuff while it's still being debate, or deleting entry that have been at RFV for less than a month. As msh210 (rightly) keeps telling me, unless it's patently ridiculous, leave it for a week, at which point it can be considered officially failed. More than anything else, it covers your back because you're following the guidelines. Mglovesfun (talk) 13:22, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks and sorry, I thought they were old and flagged a long time ago. --Anatoli 13:32, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

, as in "jinx". Wish "Vahagn P."'d do the same ! Could you look at my question in DP of "stingray"? Is it "ouark el shook" ? PS : your page is 64 Kio !... T.y. Arapaima 07:36, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks a lot again Anatoli . I took the liberty to add to french translation "à aiguillon" , because "une raie"(f) is "a ray" , while "a stingray" is commonly named "une pastenague" in french( cf Petit Larousse). T.y. Arapaima 10:03, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Hi, Norwegian definitely has three genders, no "common" gender. You must be thinking about Swedish and Danish, which have only two. Somewhat confusingly, however, in the most recent recommendation from the Norwegian Language Council, you are allowed to choose to use the masculine inflection for all feminine nouns in Bokmål (not in Nynorsk). You can look up the gender here, e.g. for side it will say "f1 el. m1" for Bokmål and "f2" for Nynorsk. I do however recommend following the generic advice "ONLY add translations that you are CERTAIN of" (and this includes gender). --Håkon 16:18, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, Håkon. My exposure to Norwegian was brief. I will be careful with genders now. --Anatoli 20:45, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

How many languages can you translate this pharse into? 68.220.177.177 22:47, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Do I have to? Ok, I'll have a go when I have time. I don't have immediate translations ready, though. --Anatoli 23:10, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Can you do the Russian, Ukrainian, French, Polish, Czech, and Spanish? I also wonder why this has no article in the French Wikipedia? (I understand why with Ukrainian and Czech however). 68.220.161.111 23:58, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Done. Check the translations in pick one's nose. Some translations were there already, some I added before. --Anatoli 01:08, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Good. Can you do Norwegian, Swedish, and any others? And maybe make an article for the subject in fr Wikipedia? Or any other Wikipedia? (it does have es, pl, and ru, also has de, fa, he, ja, mk, nl, pt, sv, yi, and zh). 68.220.172.23 02:16, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

I added Norwegian, Swedish and Greek, will add Arabic and/or Hindi if I find but I won't make articles in other Wiktionaries or Wikipedias. --Anatoli 02:34, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

You have an email. 24.177.114.160 02:59, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Razorflame, why are you circumventing the block by editing anonymously? In this one week, please try to reconsider your approach in order to assuage the suspiciousness towards your edits and to enhance the reliability of those edits. Best regards, The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 06:14, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

This could use a shedload of translations (all three senses). How about it? Mglovesfun (talk) 10:35, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

That'll do for me. --Anatoli 11:43, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Let's get this under way! But how to write it...? ---> Tooironic 00:12, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Let's think about it. I don't know myself. We can start by looking at some existing proposals and votes and generating more interest in WT:BP and knowing the opposition, if there is some. I will be busy today. Will start next week, I think. Have a good weekend! --Anatoli 00:16, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Hi there! Please check WT:AJA#Hiragana entries and WT:AJA#Romaji entries for the solution which the community agreed upon several years ago after we had encountered a similar problem over romaji and hiragana entries. I guess this format is a good start point for you guys.

I'm also searching for old discussions about it, so far unsuccessfully. I'll bring pointers here if I find.

Applying its principle to pinyin entries, while of course they shouldn't have a full-fledged description regardless of they are with or without tones, there should be something for navigating users, hopefully directly, to a real entry they are looking for. ―Tohru 08:10, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Hi Tohru, personally, I don't see any value in having romanised entries, neither in Japanese, nor Chinese. After all, these languages are not written in Roman letters but maintaining and synchronising the existing entries with the fully-fledged character entries is hard. It takes away the focus from creating and maintaining entries in proper scripts, they are complicated enough. In Chinese it causes more problems than Japanese, since toneless pinyin words can have many variants with tones. For users not fmaliar with scripts but knowing the pinyin, the search facility works just fine. If the romanised words become part of English or other languages, they could be added in Roman letters into the proper languages, not Chinese or Japanese. Anyway, the seriousness is different in Japanese vs Chinese and me and Tooironic (Carl) are thinking of making a proposal to disallow toneless pinyin entries. Please advise, what are your arguments in their favour if you do have them. --Anatoli 23:57, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

FYI I will also want to disallow pinyin entries with tone marks as numbers, e.g. Zhong1wen2, as they are also just as useless.

Moreover, I had a think about it today and I think a good idea might be to create a specific template to direct users from a pinyin entry to its possible hanzi equivalents, e.g. àikǒu, see 隘口 or 礙口 (trad.), 碍口 (simp.). This would prevent us from having to duplicate information from hanzi entries for pinyin ones. This simple template can also be very easily used by bots to create mass amounts of pinyin entries. ---> Tooironic 03:45, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Can you make this entry and характерный please? Thanks :) Razorflame 06:37, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Done. --Anatoli 10:55, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Razorflame 12:25, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Hey you might wanna fix the Russian translation template there, it's all over the place. ---> Tooironic 11:32, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Done, thanks for letting me know :) --Anatoli 12:08, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Are you sure this is really a good idea? If a name for a Latin script letter is attested in Mandarin, it should be kept, even if it is the same as the name in English, shouldn't it? (Note that these entries refer to the letter in Latin script, not specifically English.) Or, if it's just unattestable (unused), shouldn't the translation section be left blank? --Yair rand 22:01, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

The name in Pinyin is "bê", see Latin alphabet: letter names and Hanyu Pinyin alphabet 91.104.42.52 22:56, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, I am pretty sure about it, I have asked around, this is my experience (standard HSK tests for example - Roman letters are used for listing tasks), checked with Chinese teachers and was confirmed extensively on language forums (Word Reference, Chinese-forum.com). A few things: 1) Roman letter names used to be called differently, there was a pinyin alphabet, which is now forgotten, the letters names were also in Roman letters, now, due to the English influence, the words like CD, DVD, WTO, etc. are all pronounced using English letter names. Note that some sounds are foreign to Chinese but they are trained to pronounce them. A few playing card names use Roman letters as well. This applies to any Romanised abbreviations, even if the origin is not English. 2) The letters are pronounced with some accent, of course, even can have some assigned tones, like DVD may be pronounced dī-vī-dī, OK - ōukēi or ōukèi, since a syllable must have a tone but the choice of tones is rather flexible and some people just pronounce them without tones. This is the topic I personally investigated and until someone disputes this, I would leave this as is. The Chinese language doesn't have the ability to describe the sounds of a foreign language perfectly, that's why the choice is using borrowed English letters themselves. --Anatoli 23:11, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

(EDIT CONFLICT). I mentioned briefly the pinyin letter names but most respondents - native speakers don't use the pinyin letter names any more - this would cause a lot of confusion, so this can be called obsolete. --Anatoli 23:11, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Happy to compromise and add Pinyin letter variants. --Anatoli 00:00, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Hi Anatoli. In I am English you gave the Danish translation jeg er engelsk, which is the correct literal translation. If it's supposed to be a "typical sample phrase", then I believe that jeg er englænder ("I am an Englishman") is the most commonly used phrase. It is completely equivalent to the German ich bin Engländer; the feminine counterpart, jeg er englænderinde would rarely be used.--Leo Laursen – (talk · contribs) 08:08, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. I added it as the main variant. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I only rated my Danish as 2 in Babel. --Anatoli 08:23, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Hi, the no wiktionary is written in both Bokmål and Nynorsk, while nn is written exclusively in Nynorsk. The end result is that the codes for the {{t}}-templates are a bit confusing (ideally we could have nb refer to no?), but I see no other way to do it at the moment. --Harald Khan Ճ 11:52, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your Norwegian translations. Since no is in both, can we have it as the default, or simply Norwegian, and have Bokmål nested as I edited your translations originally? --Anatoli 11:57, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

It would be also tiring to every time edit manually if you just use Assisted method with the the no code. The nn code, on the other hand generates Norwegian Nynorsk: automatically. Not sure if it was discussed at WT:BP and why the setup is like this. --Anatoli 12:06, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

The code nb does also work, and I have made a request for it to refer to the no wiktionary; but if Bokmål and Nynorsk must lie indented below Norwegian, then more needs to be done. If the translations are the same in both Bokmål and Nynorsk, then using the assisted method with the no code works just as intended. --Harald Khan Ճ 12:19, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Now done. Sorry for the delay. I was also intending (at some point in the future) to add the "Norwegian:" heading when either (nb) or (nn) was used - would that be sensible? Conrad.Irwin 12:30, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

That's what WT:ANO suggests, and it looks like that's the common way do deal with variants of the same language here? I have no strong opinions on the matter. --Harald Khan Ճ 12:43, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Conrad, the nested translations are long overdue. The most annoying thing for me with Chinese translations is having to add *: Mandarin under * Chinese. Please address if you can. :) This was a consensus for Chinese translations, which we have been following. As for Norwegian, I don't know if there was an agreement but I thought Nyrnorsk had to be nested but Bokmål should be the default but the WT:ANO page doesn't reflect this. --Anatoli 12:46, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand. The two etymologies, pronunciations, and definitions are are the same. Why did you duplicate them? --EncycloPetey 03:58, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. It was accidental. Fixed now. --Anatoli 04:03, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

FYI it seems there are a thousand ways to say this in Mandarin. Check out my changes. ---> Tooironic 11:25, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I used the common 是...的 form. I know that adjectives don't need 是, if you see my translation in I am hungry. --Anatoli 11:29, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, you know 是...的 is more for creating emphasis... anyways I also corrected the translations at blind. Cheers. ---> Tooironic 11:44, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

I know this too. You are welcome to change. There was no need to emphasise. --Anatoli 11:52, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

I wonder whether you'd have a minute to remove the "Verbal noun" header from دين (i.e. is it a form of a verb, or is it a noun?). I tried the first one - but I'm less confident on the second. Thanks. Conrad.Irwin 17:49, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

I am not so confident either. I have slowed down my Arabic studies at the moment. Perhaps User:Stephen_G._Brown can help? --Anatoli 20:44, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

I've asked Stephen. Thanks. Conrad.Irwin 21:02, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

My guess is, the 2nd one is a noun as well but I don't guarantee it 100%. --Anatoli 21:06, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I'll wait to see if Stephen says anything. On another note, is your Korean any up to improving 中#Dependent nouns :D? I have some communication with the author of the section at , but not very fruitful. Conrad.Irwin 22:34, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Everything has now been resolved. Conrad.Irwin 22:58, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Please... try to use that. I don't want Hindi to be like Arabic and Greek with 7 different methods of translit that no one will ever agree on. — opiaterein — 01:55, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

i thought I was using that? Didn't I? I just fixed my latest transliterations with ã, ā̃, ẽ, ē̃, ĩ, ī̃ signs. It's often difficult though, I haven't been consistent and very accurate. I still prefer some translit than nothing - I am not good at Hindi but we don't have active Hindi contributors. I'd say with Arabic we are consistent but the method is not scientific. --Anatoli 01:58, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, there's no need for a "ē". On I love you you used ɛ̃.

We still have a lot of Arabic entries/translations that use an IPA based translit system, and others that have a more scientific system like what we have for Hindi. I was relatively active in Hindi sections here for a while, and Dijan does some stuff when he has time. — opiaterein — 14:07, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Such a common English word, it should have more than just three translations. I could probably do Spanish, Portuguese et al. but not Russian, Arabic, Hindi, etc. Mglovesfun (talk) 17:37, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Done. --Anatoli 12:09, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

I would really appreciate you taking a look at User:Tooironic/xìngshì. I think this formatting policy would make our lives a whole lot easier. I am calling upon all veteran Mandarin editors to make suggestions of improvement at the talk page. Cheers. ---> Tooironic 13:20, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Just posted about it at the BP. :) ---> Tooironic 01:35, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Please don't. ---> Tooironic 00:24, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I thought that was the only way to deal with a big number of toneless pinyin entries? Isn't the wording "Mandarin nonstandard spellings" discouraging enough to create new ones and it has a link to the proper pinyin entry? If the entry started "may refer to any one of the following pinyin" it would be a compromise. Anyway, tell me what you propose - delete, rename, etc? --Anatoli 00:29, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I propose we delete all toneless pinyin words (but keep toneless pinyin syllables). It is unfair to expect editors to have to update and maintain a Chinese word in three or four different entries. ---> Tooironic 00:33, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

(Or move the toneless pinyin to toned/hanzi entries, where possible. ---> Tooironic 00:34, 25 May 2010 (UTC))

FYI 請跟我說 is more like "please talk to me". ---> Tooironic 00:19, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

No, it's not. I fell into the same trap when tried to translate. This was also discussed on Chinesepod. Talk to me or with me is 请和我一起说. 跟 implies "to follow", not together. --Anatoli 00:27, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

In classroom environment 一起读 or 一起说 are used for together or similtaneously and 跟我说 or 跟我读 when the student has to repeat after the teacher. I added the original variant. I was interested in this topic and did some search yesterday. --Anatoli 00:32, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Weird. I've never heard it expressed like that in that context. Then again I haven't been in a language learning classroom for a long time. Cheers. ---> Tooironic 00:34, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

No worries, your translation uses the same verb, which in my shorter example is a preposition, anyway. --Anatoli 00:37, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

The nouns are always uppercase (un Émirati) while the adjectives are lowercase (émirati), albeit a lot of the time in informal use, they are used interchangeably. Mglovesfun (talk) 22:42, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

You're right, I forgot about the rule. Guess, I have to change a few demonyms of the Arab world. --Anatoli 22:46, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Hi. Hope this will help. Regards. --Piolinfax 10:11, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

It is not just "adaraya". First letter of the word should be in Long syllable in Sinhala. Just like "aadaraya". බිඟුවා 06:45, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

The symbol ā, i. e. a with a macron denotes a long vowel. Thus ā=aa. The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 07:45, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Heya. Re I'm pretty sure the standard format is to treat it as one word, without a hyphen, in pinyin. I've never seen it written as "-yǔ" in dictionaries. Hyphens are only used in specific instances in pinyin, e.g. in proper noun abbreviations like Ōu-Měi 歐美. ---> Tooironic 03:05, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Ok, you can change if you wish, I don't have a strong opinion about this. I've been doing this for other languages to show, which part is the country + language. --Anatoli 03:51, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Mmm, same goes for sex shop, et al. We should really be consistent about this and, like I said, I've never seen pinyin hyphenated in dictionaries or literature unless in very specific circumstances. Cheers. ---> Tooironic 11:11, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Hey there. Can you double-check the last 7 translits on User:Razorflame/Kannada/KNTL please? Since I am still learning Kannada transliteration, I would appreciate a double-check to make sure they are right before I add them to Wiktionary (trying to reduce errors :)) Thanks, Razorflame 02:51, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

I am not skilled in Kannada either (as I said before) and I wouldn't check words I don't know but I checked the basic consonants used with Google translate. I added some Kannada translit. for proper names + fixed translits. where ṭ was rendered with T or similar conventions. It is by no means a reliable tool to get the pronounciation, it only saves time. --Anatoli 02:56, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Ok, thanks anyways for the help. By the way, I transliterated your Stalin Kannada transliteration again, to double-check if it is right, and that was what I got as well, so I went ahead and made the entry :) Razorflame 02:57, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Your pronunciation in brackets matches Google Translate. You can also use other tools that shows, which letters are used with a mouse over (if your forget letters) but there's no substitute for knowledge. The tool you could use is called "SC Unipad" and you could try Type in Hindi and select "Kannada". I typed Stalin and got ಸ್ಟಾಲಿನ್. --Anatoli 03:02, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Yep. I looked around the Internet and on many sites in Kannada, ಸ್ಟಾಲಿನ್ was used for Stalin, so I am pretty confident that it is the right translation of that word :) Razorflame 03:07, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

I was referring to the transliteration and typing in my last message. You need some tools for double-checking the letters used, if you know the rules. I have a number of methods to check that ಸ್ಟಾಲಿನ್ consists of six letters (even if some of them form ligatures) and two virama. If you use them you could check the transliteration yourself. --Anatoli 03:24, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

That is true, but those tools cannot be correct 100% of the time. I actually do use the Google transliteration tool for Kannada, however, I cannot guarantee that they tell me it is correct when it could not be. That is why I ask for another user to double-check them. Anyways, night...it is late here. Razorflame 03:35, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

It's just not possible to call these names English, in my opinion. Otherwise all language statements of given names and surnames mean nothing. Even if there were some American immigrants named Berlusconi, the translations obviously refer to the Italian guy. I have removed the English entries and turned the translations into "Descendants" of the Italian/French name. Since I don't know any of the languages in question, I might have messed up your good work. Also, Sarkozy cannot be translated into any language as "Sarkozy" - that would imply a cognate.

Does this sound fair to you? It's a bit silly, but I cannot think of a better solution. Notice the problem does not exist with place names - they are English, and have genuine translations even when they happen to be spelled identically.--Makaokalani 15:10, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Then should we remove the French too, because Sarkozy is a Hungarian name? See w: Nicolas Sarkozy#Family background, w: Sárközi (surname).

It is odd, because just by using a surname we make it “English,” the way we define that for Wiktionary, but that seems to be how it works here. —Michael Z. 2010-06-01 21:24 z

Please see WT:BP#Translating Sarkozy and Berlusconi. - Sárközy is a Hungarian surname and Sarkozy is a French surname. But the French president is called Sarkozy in Hungarian because the Hungarians correctly perceive that his name is French and nothing else. --Makaokalani 12:08, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

By “called” do you mean pronounced or written? You're saying these are two different surnames? When do would you say that Sarkozy or his ancestors dropped a Hungarian name and adopted a French one? Why is it that Sarkozy would only be French and not English, even though it is used and pronounced in English, while crème brûlée is an English word?

Whether a word (or name) belongs to a language depends only on its use in the language. (Yeah, you could argue that written names are to some extent translingual among languages sharing a script, but that is a function of languages' script use, and not of speakers' language use.) It does not depend on the nationality of its referent. Even though the president is French, anglophones who say his name are still speaking English when they say it. —Michael Z. 2010-06-04 18:52 z

I agree with Mzajac. Sometimes, it's difficult to call a word an English word, but, if it's used in English, there is no reason to forbid an English section for it. A good example is autoroute (I refer to the 2nd sense). It's useful to create these sections, because someone finding the word in an English text will, quite logically, look for it in an English section. And it's also needed for some info (pronunciation in English (or the section language), translations (think to languages using other scripts), gender (when applicable), derived words, anagrams...) This applies to surnames too. Lmaltier 19:23, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi, I've changed the sizes back to what they used to be for Cyrillic fonts and for Arabic fonts. Whatever you did, it just looked horrible. Cyrillic fonts on my computer for the past few days appeared oversized and accent marks looked horrendous. As for Arabic, it was as if we never implemented the specific fonts. So, please do not make further changes to this. Thanks. --Dijan 20:47, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

OK. What OS and the browser do you have? It looked OK on Vista and XP - Firefox and IE. --Anatoli 20:53, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

I have XP and I use Firefox 3.6 --Dijan 23:01, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

It would have been a good idea to seek consensus beforehand. What may work well on one computer may be horrible for another. Especially when it comes to this fonts stuff, you should've also asked for my advice - I've worked with all this for quite a long time so I know what's good and what should better be left alone. -- Prince Kassad 20:56, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

With respect, please leave some notes or documentation on the relevant talk page. Whether it's next week or next decade, someone will come around and try to improve things, and they will only be able to work based on the available information. On the wiki, you can't just expect everyone to know they should come to you before editing something.

It would be a huge project, but we should really start collecting information about which fonts on which operating systems render at what absolute size. That's the only way we can maintain these script-specific font sizes in a coordinated fashion. —Michael Z. 2010-06-08 21:27 z

Doesn't wazu.jp kind of do that? Another option would be creating a Wiktionary font - but that requires lots of work which nobody of us is capable of doing. -- Prince Kassad 21:38, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

We should organize a survey by script code. The first priority is to identify installed fonts on common OSes that support each script, the second to identify freely downloadable fonts for those that lack support. For each viable font, we need to measure the x-height size in pixels (for Western-style fonts), and determine how to resize them so they fit with Wiktionary's default sans-serif font (for each OS). Screen shots would be helpful. A huge task. —Michael Z. 2010-06-08 22:01 z

Sounds good, Michael. Some fonts were simply unreadable before my edit - Tamil and Sinhalese. That was my main reason. It's also well-known that learners have trouble distinguishing foreign scripts, especially complicated scripts, so increasing Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Hebrew, etc. would be beneficial. By how much, we should discuss and test. --Anatoli 22:24, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry if I caused any trouble. A few scripts were not handled at all - like Jpan, Hani, Kore and some others. I was under impression they were neglected. Last time I increased only by 15%, which is normally OK for everybody and good for learners having trouble distinguishing some letters. Also, it was consistent with other scripts. Taml was just too small - even smaller than simply adding without the {{Taml}} template. It has been some time since I changed. Was it really so outrageous? --Anatoli 21:03, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

You simply removed all the settings for the scripts, which were not even there! Why? --Anatoli 21:06, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

I only removed parts that you added to those particular scripts. --Dijan 23:01, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

I have no problem with your last edit - admittedly those scripts needed some adjustment. My comment was for Prince Kassad. He removed .Hani, .Geor, .Jpan, .Kore/.Hang altogether. Reduced .Taml and .Sinh, making them unreadable again. Later he changed back .Sinh only. --Anatoli 23:09, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Hey Atitarev, you should go on an article creation spree in Bulgarian ;) Not many users can add entries in Bulgarian, and your creation of Bulgarian entries would be very helpful ;), not to mention very fun (possibly) ;) Razorflame 03:32, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Bulgarian translations - yes, Bulgarian entries - no. The templates are complicated and I don't know the Bulgarian grammar. Ironically, it's easier for me to create some entries in Vietnamese or even Thai (I have done some but not volunteering) than Bulgarian - a language very close to Russian. I prefer the entries to have good and complete grammar info. User talk:Bogorm is Bulgarian. --Anatoli 03:42, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Maybe you could do Russian ;) Razorflame 04:00, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I should, perhaps but I spend more time translating. --Anatoli 05:25, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Maybe it is a good idea to take a break from translating? That's all that you've been doing for the past few months ;) Maybe take some time off from translating to make some entries for us ;) Razorflame 05:42, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, everybody does what they want and what they are good at. I am good at translations. Some generate Tbot entries and they are searchable. I do create Russian entries occasionally but Vahagn, Stephen and Wanjuscha are better at this. --Anatoli 05:52, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

паразитарный means parasitic, right? Razorflame 05:45, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, паразитарный паразитический паразитный are all synonyms. --Anatoli 05:52, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Mind creating those three words for me please? Razorflame 06:29, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

From what I've seen, this looks like it ought to be a prefix in Polish, but my knowledge of Polish is too limited to figure out what it means from the entries in my etymological dictionary of Polish. :) --EncycloPetey 04:31, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi, sorry for the delay. Polish po- and Russian по- (po-) have too many meanings. I'm not sure I could make a useful entry. --Anatoli 22:19, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your trying to give me any Wiki policy to prove the authority of your "rules", but I'm sorry that I still didn't see any official wording to demand all Chinese languages be nested. The page you offered is merely a user page, and a real official policy of English Wiktionary, Wiktionary:About Chinese that I found, doesn't make your nesting project guaranteed, either.--Symane 15:46, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

I just made Minnan translations for soap, now I wonder how you would nest them under Chinese. I honestly wish you be aware of huge diversities among Chinese languages and it's extremely not wise to regroup them together.--Symane 16:45, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

No, it's not my authority. I don't own Wiktionary. It is a compromise reached after many failed votes and heated discussions. 1.) One issue is how to treat Chinese dialects/languages/topolects - yes, we do nest them under Chinese:. Failure to do so will be corrected. 2.)The other issue you describe - dialects/subdialects/sub-subdialects, etc. - there are a few ways adopted - subnesting is possible - look at child translations or we use {{qualifier}}. Which method to use for subdialects - is debatable, we don't have so many contributions in Zhangzhou, Quanzhou and Chaozhou and they are not expected (I'm not saying unwelcome). Are you going to start a lot of Zhangzhou entries? If they are still part of Min Nan and don't often a separate language code - grouping them as variants of Min Nan with a qualifier seems OK to me. The user page I mentioned - shows the result of the convention. Not Tooironic's edits are NOT reversed like yours, this means the community accepts this method. Don't expect a revolution after a few translations or some entries. You won't surprise anyone by demonstrating huge diversities among Chinese languages but grouping them together would be wise for your sake. If you don't follow - you may be blocked, as simple as that - User:Stephen_G._Brown already explained you that. It is a convention adopted by users who have been working for a long time. User:A-cai must be the oldest Mandarin and Min Nan contributor and User:Tooironic is the most prolific Mandarin contributor. You can ask them for archived discussions and votes about Chinese translations and entries. I don't encourage you to open this can of worms but you can go to WT:BP. If I were you, I would add a Wiktionary:Babel on your user page before you start any serious discussion. Sorry for the tone but it's you who started lecturing here. --Anatoli 22:57, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

You said you have not the authority, but you are warning/menacing a user who doesn't go against any open policy on Wiktionary. You guys assume you've made great contributions to Chinese entries, and then you attempt to act as the very policy maker of all Chinese-related entries. What a shameful dictatorship it is.

I know well you're capable to nest dozens of Chinese languages, and their hundreds of dialects, thousands of sub-dialects, etc. However, what gets you spurred to do so? If Zhangzhou dialect should be put under Minnan that owns a language code, why do you put so many various languages that have separate codes under "Chinese" that simply equals a language family? Is it nice to see a long list of subgroups under Chinese? Even if there're not many other languages entries except Mandarin, is it convenient for future contributions? Even if there may not be big contribution in the future, is it the Wiki value to treat minority languages in this way? I begin to doubt what exact aims lead you to jump to this decision.

Unless you have Wiki community make an official policy on the nesting, I won't accept such a "convention" made by a few users. Nobody is superior than others here.--Symane 14:56, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

That's how it's pretty much always been done here. You might as well just get over it. — opiaterein — 15:15, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

To Symane. Wiktionary is for people to make a difference, not a point. All your global contributions are all about provincial/dialectal nationalism. The policy or convention has been explained to you and you have understood it. Expect a block, if you don't follow. --Anatoli 20:49, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi, Yep, It is hard to find Sinhala words & meaning of the words in the internet. We have around 3600 articles in the Sinhala Wikipedia. Also not more than 250 words in the Sinhala Wiktionary. yeh, It is very low :(

here is an on-line transliteration tool. It can be used like this.

• mama => මම (means that "I")
• si\nhala => සිංහල (means that "Sinhala")

I'll try to do something related to this. බිඟුවා 05:57, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the tool, there is also Type in (select Sinhalese) but I meant the reverse transliteration - paste/type a Sinhalese word and get its reading in Roman letters (e.g. paste මම and get mama). Yours is better, anyway, it has the transliteration scheme described. Do you know a good dictionary apart from Sinhalese, Sinhalese Sinhalese, Sinhalese? All 4 are of pretty poor quality, unfortunately. --Anatoli 06:03, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

I just added a bunch of translation requests to the noun sense for the word bid, and I think that you'd be able to fill in a bunch of the holes :) Care to give it a try? Razorflame 20:07, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

These are way too many requests. I reckon they will stay unfilled for a while. Just added Russian and Chinese. I will add some more. --Anatoli 20:18, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

I usually only add this many requests if the word is very common, and I believe that it is a very common word that would have very easy to find sources for most of the languages added. Anyways, thanks for the help, Razorflame 20:20, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Привет, Анатолий. Мне вздумалось добавить еще одну цитату к статью оне, однако я позадумался... В этой цитате оне тоже нельзя заменить словом они (смысл был бы утрачен). Вот цитата:

Жиды - не они, а оне. Лапсердаки их суть бабьи капоты: а на такого кулак сам лезет.

Василий Васильевич Розанов, Опавшие листья, Короб второй и последний

Тебе кажется, что возможно, немало люду возропщет? Или что содержание цитаты некоторым русскоговорящим читателям не по душе будет? А с другой стороны, цитата хорошо иллюстрирует местоимение, и вики-проектам нельзя навязывать цензуру. The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 07:12, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Подумав над твоим предложением, я считаю, что этот пример использования очень нетипичный и только напрасно разозлит некоторых участников. Извини, если что не так :) --Anatoli 22:30, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Понятно... Ничего; Розанов все равно не из тех авторов, которые боятся затронуть кого-нибудь, он не из политкорректных, не из робкого десятка. The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 07:04, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Hello, I just found your great Chinese-Japanese exonyms/endonyms correspondence list, which was transwikied from en:WP. I'd like to propose that this page be similarly transwikied, as I believe it is a very worthy effort and could be very helpful for Wiktionary (both editors and users). Could you let me know what you think and how to proceed? 71.66.97.228 05:34, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the nice words, however, I didn't do the Transwiki myself, so I have no idea how this is done. That page is interesting and needs to be transwikied somehow. --Anatoli 05:37, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

This edit shows that you created this page. 71.66.97.228 06:10, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

I know, I am saying I don't know how to port it from Wikipedia to Wiktionary. --Anatoli 06:14, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Your input here would be much appreciated. ---> Tooironic 10:26, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

See extensive discussion of this term at User talk:A-cai#.E4.B8.89.E5.91.B3. 71.66.97.228 03:02, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

OK, I was only looking at shamisen meaning, which is always written in full. --Anatoli 03:58, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Except when it is called sangen (which would be an equivalent of the name of the Chinese sanxian). 71.66.97.228 04:03, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Just drawing your attention to this page if you didn't realise already. ---> Tooironic 03:40, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Hm? Wouldn't this need to go through RFD before being deleted? I certainly don't think it's useless, and I don't understand why anyone else would. --Yair rand (talk) 23:45, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

The rfd was there for some time, there was only one meaningful translation. Noone objected to deletions of other useless "I don't speak" phrases for obscure languages lacking the translation even to the target language. If you so strongly object to the deletion, please try to at least to improve it. --Anatoli 00:11, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Did you just use Googletranslate on this? — opiaterein — 14:25, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

I only use Google translate to save some typing (not a replacement of a real translation) and I have to fix almost every translation suggested by Google translate - you may be referring to my conversation with Razorflame - don't be misled by it. I had to spend some time checking Arabic and even more Vietnamese for does anyone here speak English. I'm pretty sure they're ok now. You can see the rest of languages have high values in my Babel table. In other words, I rely on my own skills for translations. Do you have doubts about any specific translations? --Anatoli 14:36, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

I just noticed that a few of the translations were exactly as they come out on GT, save one orthographical difference. I've noticed GT does some pretty good work with certain languages, but these are a severe minority. 15:08, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

It does a good job indeed for some phrases/phrases and some languages but it still does a terrible job for others. So they need to be verified by humans, anyway - I use "Contribute a better translation" all the time on GT. GT saves time on some diacritics, some transliteration symbols and long words, though, even if you can translate phrases/words yourself. --Anatoli 19:47, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

We should really work out a uniform way to do this since everyone seems to be doing it however they feel like it. IMO it's best to list the pinyin on the left to aid in alphabetising, e.g. at 音樂. What do you think? I noticed you've been putting the pinyin in unlinked parentheses. ---> Tooironic 05:32, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't mind. OK. I don't think there was a standard way to list see also, etc. for Chinese or other non-Roman languages. Please add to your "basic create entry page", then it would be easier to follow. I always thought adding pinyin in examples or other additional stuff is just a favour, not a necessary requirement. --Anatoli 05:36, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, I wouldn't think of it as a necessary requirement, but if we are going to provide it at all there should be some standardisation IMO. ---> Tooironic 05:59, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

As I said, I don't mind but working on pinyin entries might be a waste of time, IMHO, and there is not much work happening, so most pinyin links will stay red, should they be linked, in your opinion? --Anatoli 06:06, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Sigh. I dunno. The only reason I started adding linked pinyin links was because people were adding some of them. But since the vast majority are going to be red perhaps they should be bracketed and unlinked like the way you do them. ---> Tooironic 14:33, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Hi Anatoli, can you tell me why they are being duplicated instead of just using an "alternate" mechanism similar to the one used for unprofessionalize/unprofessionalise? Here is my point: simplified Chinese script is just an alternate script for an identical traditional character (and vice versa). Duplicating (or synchronizing) thousands of entries adds nothing but it wastes time and space. If there are actual reasons for this way of doing things, I'm curious to learn what they are. So far I suspect it's just done that way because no one questioned the waste. Thank you, GiuseppeMassimo 00:37, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

In Mandarin (traditional/simplified) and Serbo-Croatian (Cyrillic/Roman) all entries are synchronised. That's the way it is. Please don't break the established rules, which have been in use for many years. It is a consensus reached. Please don't reopen this can of worms. Many users never open the other script and each entry should have the sufficient information. You may find some answers on Wiktionary:About_Chinese. User:Tooironic has also described it well on his user page. You may also want to check with User:A-cai, our long time Chinese contributor. If you want to contribute, you are welcome but you have to learn the ropes, follow the rules and not upset other contributors. --Anatoli 00:55, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

OK, so it's a consensus that was reached because too many were arguing opposing points of view? Sometimes politics trumps computer science. Thank you Anatoli for your time. I understand what you mean and I don't want an open can of worms either. I'm going to stick with other languages for a bit, while I digest all this and read up as you suggested. GiuseppeMassimo 02:31, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Contrary to what was written above, simplified characters are often *not* exactly equivalent to traditional ones, due to the nature of the simplification process. Many traditional characters that have a single meaning were "simplified" into characters that already existed, meaning that the simplified forms may have several different definitions, while the original traditional character has only one. Be very careful before making statements such as "all simplified characters are exactly equivalent to their traditional counterparts." 71.66.97.228 20:39, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, did anyone make that statement? --Anatoli 21:38, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I was under the impression simplified/traditional were exactly equivalent. Thanks for the info, IP contributor. Out of curiosity, can you point out a few examples? (Perhaps on my talk page to not clutter Anatoli's?) GiuseppeMassimo 14:02, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

FYI you forgot to remove the RS=. Fixing that now. ---> Tooironic 13:56, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. --Anatoli 23:11, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

This seems like an important Japanese word to add. ---> Tooironic 13:39, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks but it's the past (perfective) plain form of 疲れる (tsukareru) - "got tired" or "tired" in attributive positions. The forms of verbs don't have their own entries. --Anatoli 13:44, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I just came across it at tired. If an individual entry is not appropriate perhaps there should be a redirect at the translation table? ---> Tooironic 11:53, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Fixed a redirect. --Anatoli 12:20, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Hi Atitarev, I was running through some cleanup lists — this (and the page it references) are the only entries with the "Pinyin reading" section. Did the discussion come to any conclusion as to what to do? Otherwise, can I just replace the heading by Pinyin or Pinyin Syllable? Conrad.Irwin 22:32, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

難道 as a translation? Really? I've never heard it used as an interjection. ---> Tooironic 13:05, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, it's not used separately 难道你没看见 - "you don't say, you haven't seen (it)", I added a comment, perhaps this will clarify. --Anatoli 23:30, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

I would have thought 真的嗎 would have been a more common translation. Adding that now. ---> Tooironic 01:11, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Your input would be greatly appreciated, when you return from your break. Mglovesfun (talk) 22:36, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Please see User_talk:Chzz#your Chinese entries, thanks. Chzz 23:49, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

And again, thanks. Chzz 17:44, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

...and once more. (By the way...what is the convention in wikt for notifying users about replies? Is it best to add these notes, as I have, or is it unnecessary - do most people watch for replies?) Chzz 15:22, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

I've responded, on my talk page. Chzz 09:35, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Not sure if you saw the response. Please take a look, some time; sadly, I've had to give in. Chzz 19:10, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

In case you don't notice my addition of the declension table, could you check it for any particularly egregious errors? Thanks — opiaterein — 07:08, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

In Belarusian you would need more templates to cater for palatalisation and stress patterns. :) Good job, but instrumental is малітвай. It would be малітвой, if the stress were on the last syllable (wall is сцяна -> сцяной). The Belarusian written "о" is always stressed, if it's not stressed, it changes to а. --Anatoli 10:08, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm going by this thinger which says that locative ending is stressed, which I missed because all the other endings are unstressed... So I think that I'll have to move the template, since stress pattern 1 is probably with the stress on the same part throughout, unless the site is just wrong... But I wouldn't have any idea where to get information on the stress patterns, I just felt really bad because we had so little for Belarusian. :( — opiaterein — 14:56, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

The site is wrong, I found a few obvious mistakes, e.g. галава (halavá) head is also declined incorrectly, even nominative plurals is wrong (it's голавы hólavy). There's not so much material for Belarusian, Russian sites have a little bit more than English. My own Belarusian knowledge is limited, although I can understand it. If you want to go step-by-step, I can try and help you set up a few templates by checking some nouns. I can't promise completeness, like in Russian, there are many special cases. This site has a few very simple examples. ]. --Anatoli 19:45, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I do like that site :) I think I'll try to set up templates for Belarusian slowly and focus more on internalizing more Russian. Lots to learn, but still don't want Belarusian to seem so neglected... I think it's the only national Slavic language we don't have decl templates for. :( But yeah, we can fix that over time. — opiaterein — 17:49, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

This site is good! Belarusian noun declension, the main page - . BTW, Belarusian is neglected in Belarus itself, hence the attitude. --Anatoli 04:07, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Hello, there are different idea at Template_talk:zh-tsp. I don't care which template to use if there is a formal policy or guide. The reason that I don't like {{t|cmn|心理學|sc=Hani}} format is that format if unconvenience for me. If there is any good tool or edit button to add Chinese Translation. I would do. --Dingar 00:39, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I recommend this format {{t|cmn|心理學|sc=Hani}} using Assisted method, this is how: How to Add a Chinese Translation. Template:zh-tsp is used for other things, like see also, etymology, etc. --Anatoli 04:32, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Hi back to you too and thanks for the information. I guessed that there's no one taking care of this because of the longevity of t template without any + or - signs behind it. If such entries last so long, then bots are quite slow. -Best regards, Biblbroks 22:30, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, they are slow and often inactive but they do the job. I thought we could be more productive with other things. :) --Anatoli 22:32, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Ok, np. Which things for example? Biblbroks 20:04, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I mean if it's easier (lest time and energy consuming) to put my efforts where they are needed more, I would be glad to follow up. At the time it was more easy and more prioritized to put my efforts at those darn t templates, so I did. -Regards, Biblbroks 22:46, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

It all depends on your skills and interests. I would say creating entries in your language or language you know is always needed, so is adding translations into a language. You need to follow the established rules, though. If you know Serbo-Croatian, then you can talk to User:Ivan Štambuk or User:Krun. --Anatoli 22:58, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. --Biblbroks 10:14, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

This is another of those grammatical endings that's been causing me a lot of mental distress. Is this pronounced like a short щ, or maybe just , like a normal ш with the soft sign being an etymological vestige? — opiaterein — 18:08, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

It's only etymological. "ь" doesn't affect the pronunciation here and it never does with ч, ш, ж, щ (except for when it is used as a "разделительный мягкий знак", e.g. шьёт, чья, etc.). Note another grammatical meaning of the letter - it's used to distinguish feminine nouns from masculine with no effect on pronunciation - ночь, вошь, вещь, рожь are all f and плач, шалаш, борщ, нож are m. In the transliteration I use ’ or ' after ч, ш, ж, щ if the words are spelled with "ь" but not sure how correct it is. :) --Anatoli 20:55, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

I have added some info in ь, partially from Wikipedia article on "ь". Hopefully it makes sense. --Anatoli 21:11, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

I've been trying to transliterate Russian exactly as it's written... I find that if I make too many concessions for phonology, I just end up with a completely new system :D

I'm guessing that the masculine/feminine noun distinction for ь only applies after ч, ш, ж and щ? I can think of at least one masculine noun (парень) that ends with ь.

I had two other pronunciation questions, but I can only remember one of them now :D — Is -ция tsɪjə, tsijə or tsɨjə?

What the other one I can't remember it now... I'm a questionfountain. My questions will never end. :) — opiaterein — 22:25, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Don't worry about asking too many questions, I will answer if I can. :). Yes, the masculine/feminine noun distinction for ь only applies for words with the final ч, ш, ж and щ. Other nouns can end with ь - both m and f.

"ц" is always "hard" (unpalatalised) in Russian (unlike Belarusian and Ukrainian, in Belarusian palatalised "ц" corresponds the Russian soft "т" брать -> браць, тело -> цела). In Russian "ци" and "цы" are pronounced identically in any position - (tsɨ), as if they are spelled "цы" but there are some spelling conventions and rules. With "жи" and "ши", they are pronounced as if they are spelled "жы" and "шы" ( and ) but writing "жы" and "шы" is considered a mistake, you should always write "жи" and "ши". Send me another one when you remember. :)--Anatoli 22:41, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Some of those spelling rules really confuse me. о/е/ё is nightmarish. :( — opiaterein — 01:01, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps you just need to focus on being able to READ properly, not worrying about the spelling rules so much. I only mentioned this "жи" and "ши" rule, so you know, they have the ɨ sound. о/е/ё rules can be nightmarish, indeed, even for native speakers. --Anatoli 01:18, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

You're right, I should be focusing on building my vocabulary, but I have a tendency to be scatter-brained and want to do everything at once :) — opiaterein — 01:31, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

It makes two of us. :) I try to learn too many languages at once, not always following the methods I know work for me. As a result, I can no longer reach fluency in a new language any more. Wiktionary is also to blame, too bloody addictive! --Anatoli 01:48, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

My problem is usually that I can't find anyone to talk to enough in a language I'm learning, so it won't stick in my head and I'll get bored and move on to something else. :D But I'll go back eventually, when I have better resources and whatnot. — opiaterein — 01:55, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Do you live in Holland? In Australia we don't have this problem of finding language exchange partners and I'm quite social. I go to Japanese or Chinese meetups, have colleagues and friends who speak Chinese, Japanese or Hindi and there are language forums I go to. Word Reference language forums are, in my opinion, the best to get the linguistic info. For Chinese I go to Chinese-forums.com. There's no substitute for face to face meetings, of course. --Anatoli 02:05, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Nah, I live in a military town in North Carolina, and I'm exceptionally shy. :| I have an account on Word Reference, but I haven't been there in a while... they're great, though. I'll have to go back. :D

I just made an entry at напиваться, but I'm not totally sure about the example sentence... could you check it? — opiaterein — 02:40, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Your example would work for напиться - Завтра вечером мы напьёмся (no comma needed). --Anatoli 02:50, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

I had a feeling that would be the problem. It feels like every Slavic language does something slightly different with imperfectives and perfectives, but maybe I just don't understand their uses quite as well as I think I do. :D Thanks for helpin me out. — opiaterein — 02:53, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

The trouble with imperfectives and perfectives is that sometimes there is no particular reason of one over the other. "Мы завтра идём в кино" is perfectly OK, it's a process. Your original sentence is OK grammatically but because the imperfective form has some perfective meaning (prefix на-) and it has some kind of "occasionally", "often" (reach the state when you're drunk) meaning, it doesn't sound right. Завтра вечером мы пьём водку - also imperfective, sounds OK too. I can't explain better. :( --Anatoli 03:05, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

It's alright, some things utterly defy explanation. I think when you say it has a meaning of "occassionally" or "often", that might correspond to how some languages have a habitual tense, like Lithuanian. It makes sense, I guess you just have to learn the subtleties :D — opiaterein — 18:18, 25 November 2010 (UTC)