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Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
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Latest comment: 6 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Hi, thanks for your additions to the dialectal synonym modules. I just wanted to make sure you knew what these two locations refer to. Doumen-T refers to Tanka spoken in Shangheng (斗門上橫水上話) and Doumen-S refers to Siyi spoken in Doumen Town (斗門鎮). 广东粤方言概要 confusingly calls Doumen-T 斗门. — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }03:44, 25 April 2019 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 5 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
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Latest comment: 5 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
In the first part of this edit you add a quotation for 為#Pronunciation 1. But it seems that '為' defaults to tone 4? Later in your change you use a form - 為{wéi} - apparently to _force_ the correct tone for this pronunciation. Is that all that is missing from "為所欲為", and using something like "為{wéi}所欲為{wéi}" would make it correct? Shenme (talk) 05:19, 6 February 2020 (UTC)Reply
蒙驢拉磨
Latest comment: 5 years ago7 comments3 people in discussion
@Apisite: The Internet seems to suggest the reason why donkeys are blindfolded when pulling the mill is to prevent them from going dizzy and losing balance. Anyway, 蒙驢拉磨 does not seem to be an idiomatic chengyu in the Chinese language; at least I have never heard of it. RcAlex36 (talk) 10:28, 9 May 2020 (UTC)Reply
@Apisite: As far as I know, it isn't a commonly used expression. I'm just curious though, why does a donkey move when whipped only when it's blindfolded? RcAlex36 (talk) 10:37, 9 May 2020 (UTC)Reply
@MiiCii: Sorry I don't actually know any Tungusic languages. I was mostly copying information in dictionaries when I was editing Manchu entries in the past. RcAlex36 (talk) 11:31, 24 July 2020 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Just FYI - for now, this is how the dialects in 臺灣客家語常用詞辭典 are dealt with: Sixian (northern) -> Miaoli; Southern Sixian -> Liudui; Hailu -> Hsinchu; Dabu -> Dongshi; Raoping -> Raoping; Zhao'an -> Yunlin. — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }15:39, 24 July 2020 (UTC)Reply
Huiyang
Latest comment: 4 years ago11 comments2 people in discussion
@Justinrleung: Yes you need to register, and you need to have a mainland e-mail account to receive the stuff you request (I tried Gmail, didn't seem to work). You click 图书馆文献传递 on the right and it leads to another page. You can only request at most 50 pages each day though. RcAlex36 (talk) 08:27, 26 July 2020 (UTC)Reply
@Justinrleung: Sometimes it takes a while to receive the stuff you request, but usually it arrives within 30 minutes (don't know why there can be delays when it's electronic lol). RcAlex36 (talk) 08:38, 26 July 2020 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 4 years ago6 comments3 people in discussion
Hi, thanks for adding those 方言點. I just wanted to point out some conventions that I've been trying to keep. First, many administrative divisions have changed because of reorganization and development. This means we need to check what the current administrative divisions are and not use old place names. For example, Panlong is no longer administered by Gan County but by Zhanggong District. Second, I try to keep everything at the county level except when it's within the urban districts, which is when I would use the prefecture-level city name. All smaller divisions would be placed in brackets. — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }06:24, 6 August 2020 (UTC)Reply
@Justinrleung: Thanks for your reminder. I was looking at 廣西漢語方言研究 earlier and one of the recorded Cantonese 方言點 is 北流 (唐僚). However, I did a quick search and could not find where 唐僚 is. Do you have any idea about its location? RcAlex36 (talk) 06:29, 6 August 2020 (UTC)Reply
@Justinrleung: There is a place called 塘寮 in the north of the city though (and there's also a 塘寮坡 which is far from 塘寮). I've read other sources on the difference between some varieties of Beiliu Cantonese. The phonology given in 廣西漢語方言研究 seems to suggest 唐僚 is in the northern part of the city. What's for sure is it isn't the city centre variety. RcAlex36 (talk) 06:41, 6 August 2020 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 4 years ago7 comments2 people in discussion
Hi, just letting you know that 艋舺 (Wanhua) in 台灣閩南語次方言常用詞彙調查研究 should not be considered Taipei. I've considered it the same as Taipei before, but I've been taking them out. Eventually, it should be added to module. — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }16:01, 10 August 2020 (UTC)Reply
My understanding is that Taipei recorded in most sources is a New Tong'an dialect (新同安腔), whereas Wanhua is a New Anxi dialect (新安溪腔). I can't be entirely sure since our main source, 臺灣閩南語常用詞辭典, doesn't really tell us. The dialect recorded in 台灣閩南語次方言常用詞彙調查研究 doesn't show those Anxi features though, so maybe it has to do with the age of the informant as well? It's kind of complicated. — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }16:39, 10 August 2020 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 4 years ago7 comments2 people in discussion
Thanks for editing my entry. Sorry about that, I found it in a quora post but I couldn't find much about it beyond that purpleculture website. Fluoromethyl (talk) 12:44, 24 August 2020 (UTC)Reply
@Fluoromethyl: I suspect 字如其人 is a relatively recent saying and thus is not recorded in dictionaries. I usually work with 國語辭典 and 漢語大詞典. Of course, you need to have a good knowledge of Chinese to use these sources. Alternatively, google the term and find usage of it (e.g. news and forum) and try to deduce the meaning yourself, but I do this only when the particular word is not recorded in dictionaries. RcAlex36 (talk) 15:55, 24 August 2020 (UTC)Reply
@The dog2: My parents just speak Cantonese (and only one side of my family has Teochew ancestry). Plus there isn't a single Teochew variety in HK. Teochew speakers just speak the variety of Teochew of wherever they or their parents come from. RcAlex36 (talk) 03:04, 25 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
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Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
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Latest comment: 4 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Hi Alex, I noted you reverted my edit on 肚䏙 as a synonym of 肚/肚子. As far as I understand, the term has a minor connotation of a large belly similar to 肚腩, but surely this wouldn't disqualify it as a synonym? Perhaps you understand the term differently to me. In case that it might not qualify as a direct synonym, I wonder how it can be presented as a loose synonym so that it can be linked and visible from the pages for 肚, 肚子 and the like.
Zywxn (talk) 15:18, 2 October 2020 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Just interested to know, where did you get the Singaporean Cantonese word for this? You're not wrong, but I'm just interested to know the source. The dog2 (talk) 05:26, 16 October 2020 (UTC)Reply
Interesting. This phenomenon is very common in Hokkien, where most characters have at least two separate readings, one called 文讀音 and one called 白讀音, and you have to use 文讀音 when reading 唐詩. Didn't realise it was present in Cantonese too. The dog2 (talk) 03:25, 23 October 2020 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 4 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion
Just wondering if there are resources about varieties of Cantonese spoken in Western cities, such as New York, San Francisco, Toronto, Vancouver, London, Sydney and Melbourne. Perth might also have a local variety of Cantonese, except that is will more based on Malaysian Cantonese than Hong Kong Cantonese. The dog2 (talk) 19:27, 25 October 2020 (UTC)Reply
@The dog2: I think I've mentioned this, but I'll repeat myself. I'm currently doing research on Cantonese in Toronto, but I don't know if it's appropriate to have these in the tables (if that's what you're thinking about) since they are exonormative and much more variable from person-to-person and/or generation-to-generation. The 2nd generation (children of the 1st generation immigrants) also tends not to use Cantonese among each other. — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }19:34, 25 October 2020 (UTC)Reply
@Justinrleung: I don't know if they are first generation or not, but I hear Taishanese quite a fair bit when I go to Chinatown here in Chicago. And apparently, the Taishanese people came here in the 19th century to build the railways, while those who came after World War II tend to be from Hong Kong or Guangzhou and speak standard Cantonese instead. So it is certainly possible that the Taishanese I hear is being spoken by 2nd or even 3rd generation Chinese-Americans. Don't forget that segregation was very common until well into the 20th century, so these Taishanese people and their descendants would have had to live in segregated communities of only Chinese people. The dog2 (talk) 19:50, 25 October 2020 (UTC)Reply
@The dog2: Yeah, I think Taishanese in certain Chinatowns could possibly be documented here, but I don't think there's "fieldwork-style" vocabularies because that's not what linguists in the West (at least in North America) like to do. — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }19:53, 25 October 2020 (UTC)Reply
Hainanese
Latest comment: 4 years ago5 comments2 people in discussion
Latest comment: 4 years ago5 comments2 people in discussion
Why did you revert my note on 我們? I was working on trying to explain the different between the two Chinese words for us (我們/咱們) and you reverted the one on 我們. Your revert said that 咱們 is perceived as a Northern term, which I had in my note. Is there anything that I can do to improve the note? Languageseeker (talk) 13:08, 31 October 2020 (UTC)Reply
@Languageseeker: "我們/我们 can be used in both formal or colloquial speech and generally excludes the person being spoken to." is a rather prescriptivist statement. In many parts of southern China there is no inclusive vs exclusive we distinction in their regional putonghua. Of course, the prescriptive standard for Standard Mandarin, 现代汉语词典, specifies 我們 is the exclusive we, but "in some situations" can also include the listener. RcAlex36 (talk) 13:15, 31 October 2020 (UTC)Reply
@RcAlex36: I was just about to 我們. Is this better? "Note: 我们 can be used in both formal or colloquial speech and can either include or excludes the person being spoken to. In Northern China, 咱们 is more commonly used for the inclusive sense." Languageseeker (talk) 13:29, 31 October 2020 (UTC)Reply
I revised the usage note on 咱们 based on Ross and Ma, Modern Chinese Grammar.
Latest comment: 4 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Hi colleague, I'm trying to open a discussion in a foreign Wiki project, it's my first time! I am currently working of the glyph origins of some radicals and some characters (I am from Wikipedia.it, the Italian version) and from time to time I put some missing meanings in the English Wiktionary. I think I have found a mistake in the glyph origin of a character 冓: are they "blocks of wood"? I already know other similar characters and I swear I see two fish:
@Cicognac: "Blocks of wood" is the explanation given in Shuowen, which is evidently wrong. The oracle bone script indeed consists of two 魚, and 冓 is the result of corruption. The character is likely originally intended for 遘 (gòu, “to meet”). (see 漢語多功能字庫). RcAlex36 (talk) 17:58, 11 November 2020 (UTC)Reply
Mh, I was right. Can you put a small correction or notice or something like that in the definition? I see them in some definitions. If I find more errors I'll try to warn you. Cicognac (talk) 18:05, 11 November 2020 (UTC)Reply
A calyx? Roots?
Latest comment: 4 years ago9 comments2 people in discussion
Hi, I saw the character 不, which is described as a calyx, but I saw the oracle bones versions and I found this: https://www.zdic.net/zd/zx/jg/%E4%B8%8D. I see some roots that grow out of a seed in the soil (the seed disappears from time to time), as some scholars point out. Many other characters derive from bu4, including 胚, "embryo" Do you see a calyx? Cicognac (talk) 09:16, 13 November 2020 (UTC)Reply
@Cicognac: Firstly, 胚 isn't "derived from bu4" (not sure what you meant by that), but it was indeed written as 肧 in Shuowen. 胚 is an embryo, which is pretty different from what you have described. 字源 agrees that the script 不 was the original form of 柎 (OC*po, “ovary; calyx”). RcAlex36 (talk) 13:39, 13 November 2020 (UTC)Reply
@Cicognac: Semantically that's still quite some distance from 胚. According to Guo Moruo, the inverted triangle is the ovary while the "branches" are stamens and styles. By the way,《汉字字源》 is a pretty bad source in my opinion and can hardly be considered an academic source. RcAlex36 (talk) 14:04, 13 November 2020 (UTC)Reply
I also use the Shuowen Jiezi and I always look at the glosses by Xu Xuan and Duan Yucai (Wenyan is quite hard). Unluckily, Xu Shen didn't know about the oracle bones and the bronze inscriptions. Next time I'll start using the Multi-Function Dictionary, which is my/our new source (many Italian Wikipedians and readers will start consulting it if I quote and use it). When I'll start a research about the etymologies, I'll use Schuessler and the STED database by James Matisoff (Unluckily, Schuessler's and Baxter's reconstruction of Old Chinese are quite different: for instance, Baxter put pharyngealization in the "sillables-A group", while Schuessler didn't). Is "Ziyuan" a book or a website? Who is the author? Cicognac (talk) 14:29, 13 November 2020 (UTC)Reply
Mmmh, I love big books (seriously). Later on I'll check some of the sources in that huge page. The dictionary by Schuessler and "Old Chinese" (2014) by Baxter-Sagart can be downloaded by PDF Drive, which is full of free sources (you can even upload new stuff there. By the way, I also study Early Middle Chinese and a bit of Old Chinese and Proto-Tibeto-Burmese, Cantonese dialects and other southern dialects are really helpful together with the Sino-xenic languages if you study EMC). Thank you! Cicognac (talk) 14:51, 13 November 2020 (UTC)Reply
槍 or 枪
Latest comment: 4 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Latest comment: 4 years ago6 comments2 people in discussion
I'll stop editing about those two pages, but we have to come to some sort of consensus here. It's either 凶 or 兇. I ask you politely to please stop reverting both. Oosbam1812 (talk) 15:37, 17 November 2020 (UTC)Reply
@Oosbam1812: Not either 凶 or 兇. It's 凶 in the original text and 兇 would not make sense because it does not have that meaning. They just have the same form under simplification. I think you need to work on your knowledge of classical Chinese. RcAlex36 (talk) 15:40, 17 November 2020 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 4 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Hi! I noticed you deleted my insertion of 差 as a translation of "of" as in "a quarter of three" (= the time 2:45).
I actually felt quite awkward about that whole subsection. I notice that people nowadays often just don't use these constructions anymore, probably as an effect of digital clocks, whether it's 差一刻三點 ～ 三點差一刻 in Mandarin (which you can still find in textbooks, learners' blogs and dictionaries), or for that matter, "a quarter of/to three" in English. I'm in Canada and I only hear these things from seniors past 60... Mandarin speakers even tell me that 一刻/三刻 themselves are on the way out, and only 三點半 is remaining. I have no idea what the situation is in current Cantonese, or for that matter in the other languages in the subsection. Others may be as obsolete as you feel 差 is. Interestingly, the Spanish constructions (un cuarto para las tres, las tres menos cuarto) continue to be well alive.
@Ser be etre shi: I now think my reversion was a mistake because I didn't know the "of" functions like "moins" in French. I don't think I've actually heard 差一刻三點 in Mandarin Chinese before, but that's perhaps I just don't hear Mandarin often. Even in Mandarin, it seems like you would only use 差 for a quarter. In Cantonese, you would say 三點九 or 三點四十五分 for 3:45. I would probably say 三點四十五分 in Mandarin myself. RcAlex36 (talk) 07:00, 28 November 2020 (UTC)Reply
@RcAlex36: Oh, I suppose I wasn't clear. Mandarin speakers do tell me 三點差一刻 is not used anymore, and its presence in learners' resources is an archaism, and same goes for 一刻/三刻 to a good extent. I ascribe this to digital clocks. I'm not putting it back; I think your reversion was good.--Ser be etre shi (talk) 07:46, 28 November 2020 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 4 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Please show me where I "blindly" added that definition, as the article history doesn't seem to support your claim. I haven't edited the 板 article since July 15, 2015. Bumm13 (talk) 19:08, 7 January 2021 (UTC)Reply
@Bumm13: It was in that edit where you moved the definition from translingual to Chinese, but that was a long time ago. RcAlex36, please be a little more careful in how you word things. — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }20:37, 7 January 2021 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 4 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
This is not uncountable. "The Khalkha", "some of the Khalkha", "those two Khalkha over there" are all plural. Uncountable is something like "some rice", "some paper", "a little chocolate". Equinox◑06:56, 16 January 2021 (UTC)Reply
Yes, that's how we usually treat them. I see you raised this on Discord and somebody there seemed to agree with me. I know we can talk about "different Englishes" (e.g. Caribbean vs. British) but I think practice has been to call them proper nouns (and we do allow plurals for proper nouns). Feel free to raise it on WT:BP or somewhere as there might be points worth discussing. Equinox◑13:56, 21 January 2021 (UTC)Reply
Romanizations
Latest comment: 4 years ago6 comments2 people in discussion
Hey- I found an instance of the use of the word Keelung in US gov documents before the US Civil War. Since the word 基隆 didn't exist until 1875, I think that affects the etymology for the word Keelung. Please check out the new edit I made and let me know what you think if interested. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 19:30, 8 February 2021 (UTC)Reply
Since I posted the last comment, I seemingly conclusively demonstrated the existence of the word 'Keelung' pre-1875. Examples of 'Keelung' from 1857, 1866 and 1873 are shown in the quotations drop-down on the Keelung page. I also found an example of 'Kelung' from 1837. In my view of a scientific, reliable etymology section, we must not confuse (1) the modern-day translation into Chinese characters of an English language loan word from Chinese characters with (2) the etymology of that loan word- the origin of that loan word. It is evident from these three/four early examples I have found that the word 'Keelung' came from '雞籠' since the word '基隆' is not demonstrated to exist in 1857, 1868 or 1873 and the Wikipedia and Wiktionary pages for '基隆' say that the word '基隆' was created from whole cloth in 1875. Let me know if you have any thoughts on this. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 10:56, 9 February 2021 (UTC)Reply
Hey again. I just want to encourage you again- you have done a critical and important job with the Cantonese-derived (etc) place names in English, and thanks for doing it! Take a look at Hoi Ping & Hoi Peng if you have time. Excellent, excellent work. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 12:20, 31 March 2021 (UTC)Reply
Hey- I don't know how to use the little "@" thing in the edit notes, so I just wanted to tell you: I noticed a tiny error and I bring it to your attention not because it's important, but so you're more alert to this type of error. - Tongzhou is in Beijing of course. I just wanted to say again that I am still 1000% behind the great work you are doing with the romanizations into English from Chinese characters, despite any very minor disagreements I may have. Also, I am happy when you detect my errors and slip ups- someone actually read what I was doing! Tell me if you see errors! Keep it up overall! --Geographyinitiative (talk) 23:19, 1 May 2021 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 4 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Hello, I notice that you know some Zhuang, and I just thought I would mention that Microsoft's SwiftKey mobile phone app has released a Zhuang keyboard. (I was somewhat involved in developing it). Please help spread the word to Zhuang speakers. --Tibetologist (talk) 20:40, 21 March 2021 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 4 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Hey RcAlex36- I wanted to point out something that appears on the Kailash page. In this 2018 edit, a user uses something called gbooks to highlight the cited word in a Google Books scanned book. I love that feature- very convenient for the Wiktionary user who wants to find the word. However, gbooks is incompatible (seemingly) with the pageurl parameter of quote-book. Should I bring this up at the grease pit and try to make gbooks compatible with the pageurl parameter? Have you used gbooks before? Let me know if I'm not making any sense. Thanks for your time.
Here's what I mean:
This is the citation as it stands, using gbooks
1999, Harish Kapadia, “Ascents in the Panch Chuli Group”, in Across Peaks & Passes in Kumaun Himalaya, New Delhi: Indus Publishing Company, →ISBN, page 136:
We had our reward for our high camp and early start, for the sky was still clear, the view magnificent, with fresh vistas to the north of mountains in Tibet, of Gurla Mandhata, massive, majestic to the northeast, and further to the north, a distant pyramid, Kailash, most holy of all mountains in both Hindu and Buddhist mythology.
Here is the citation using gbooks and the pageurl parameter
1999, Harish Kapadia, “Ascents in the Panch Chuli Group”, in Across Peaks & Passes in Kumaun Himalaya, New Delhi: Indus Publishing Company, →ISBN, :
We had our reward for our high camp and early start, for the sky was still clear, the view magnificent, with fresh vistas to the north of mountains in Tibet, of Gurla Mandhata, massive, majestic to the northeast, and further to the north, a distant pyramid, Kailash, most holy of all mountains in both Hindu and Buddhist mythology.
Sure, I guess it would be. I just don't like the idea that the Google Books-derived citations will bluelink only the numbers for the the page and the Internet Archive-derived citations will bluelink both the word 'page' and the numbers for the page. Seems inconsistent. Despite the potential inconsistency, I'm just going to start using gbooks for most or all the Google Books cites, because I think it's just so good. (I may later realize some unexpected problem with gbooks and not do this). --Geographyinitiative (talk) 15:23, 13 May 2021 (UTC)Reply
Middle Chinese and Old Chinese pronunciations
Latest comment: 4 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion
Hi. Just curious, under what circumstances do you think it's necessary to add the MC and/or Old Chinese pronunciations to a Chinese entry? Bula Hailan (talk) 14:19, 27 May 2021 (UTC)Reply
I add MC when the word is used during 魏晉南北朝 and 隋唐 (maybe also 五代), and Old Chinese when the word is used in texts before the end of Western Han. RcAlex36 (talk) 14:24, 27 May 2021 (UTC)Reply
@Bula Hailan: Different linguists suggest different time periods for OC and MC. Under the strictest definition, OC was spoken pre-Qin, while MC was spoken during 南北朝 and 隋唐. RcAlex36 (talk) 07:02, 28 May 2021 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 4 years ago8 comments3 people in discussion
Hello, I do not know the Wiktionary convention on transliteration, but the common English transliteration for the Kuching Hakka variety is Hopoh. Wiikipedian (talk) 07:47, 29 May 2021 (UTC)Reply
@Wiikipedian: Actually, is your dialect equivalent to the Hepo Hakka described in 馬來西亞砂拉越古晉石角區甲港客語詞彙調查與比較研究, i.e. the 方言點 Batu Kawa (Sungai Tapang) we have right now? If yes, @Justinrleung, what should we do about this? RcAlex36 (talk) 07:57, 29 May 2021 (UTC)Reply
@Wiikipedian: Hi, are you a speaker of Kuching Hakka? I'm wondering if you think there are differences between Sungai Tapang and other parts of Kuching? We generally want to keep smaller divisions if we have good access. If you're adding Kuching, is it different from Sungai Tapang? If not, it makes the modules a little messy. — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }08:42, 29 May 2021 (UTC)Reply
Thank you for adding synonyms, but please remember to add the entry at the thesaurus page as well, e.g. at Thesaurus:拖延 11:08, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
Cantonese word
Latest comment: 4 years ago7 comments3 people in discussion
Hey, just wondering here, can you make out what she is saying in this video: (3:19)? I can make out 全家 but I can't make out the second half of the phrase. The dog2 (talk) 20:17, 2 July 2021 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 4 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion
in the article of 離, I found you re-write its etymology as
Phonetically borrowed for the sense "to depart".
Does it have any evidence? If it in fact has evidence, specifically which hanzi did 離 borrowed its meaning "to depart" from?
I'm Japanese, so I searched all sort of place to find this original hanzi but I can't find anything likely and now I'm very suspicious that it ever existed in the first place. TY --Tokiedian SP (talk) 02:19, 15 July 2021 (UTC)Reply
@Tokiedian SP This is an example of 假借 (jiǎjiè). It did not borrow the meaning "to depart" from any character as 假借 does not involve borrowing senses from other characters. Rather, the character 離, originally intended to write a word related to birds (as evidenced by the 隹), was phonetically borrowed to write a word in Old Chinese that meant "to depart" because the two words shared the same pronunciation. You can compare this with the situation of 萬, another 假借字. It has always been used to write the word for 10,000, and never the word for scorpion (which is written as 蠆), even though 萬 resembles a scorpion. This happens because the word for 10,000 and the word for scorpion shared similar pronunciation in Old Chinese, so the ancient Chinese used a pictogram of a scorpion to represent the word for 10,000.
I've read several sources, and two seem to think that even the "black-naped oriole" sense claimed to be the original meaning of the character in Shuowen Jiezi, now written as 鸝, is a phonetically borrowed sense (假借義). According to 字源 (2012), the oracle bone scripts of 離 consisted of ⿱凶十 and 隹, and was a 會意字 and 形聲字 at the same time (⿱凶十 was also the phonetic component (聲旁) and would later evolve into 离), the meaning of which was related to hunting birds. RcAlex36 (talk) 03:03, 15 July 2021 (UTC)Reply
so you mean Old Chinese has a word phonetically similar to 離, but this word didn't ever have its own hanzi and just kept using 離 as a permanent substitute, do you? It just sounds... ambiguous tbh.
also btw do you know any other words that have related etymology as 離? I'm now studying lores of a particular game, and proper nouns in the game which appears in relatively close context has very sus similar hanzi; specifically 離, 璃, 螭 (If you search those hanzi, you will definitely identify the game I'm talking). I'm almost certain that 螭 probably shared the same etymology with 音符 离 (some legendary animal) but I have no idea what etymology 離, 璃 did have and whether they were related to each other... Tokiedian SP (talk) 03:49, 15 July 2021 (UTC)Reply
@Tokiedian SP Which word "didn't ever have its own hanzi"? The word meaning "to depart" or the word which seems to mean to hunt birds? If you are referring to the former, then that's just how 假借 works. There are numerous examples of 假借 which you can browse at 假借字. If you are referring to the latter, then it's true that there are some 假借字 whose original intended meanings are not attested. An example is 我, which resembles a weapon, but appears to have always been used to write the word meaning "I". Another example is 難, which may be originally intended for a word for some kind of bird. RcAlex36 (talk) 04:02, 15 July 2021 (UTC)Reply
@RcAlex36: I missed that. Thanks. If this phrase is still in use, I've only heard it once as the hokkien word that isn't loaned from malay, but only when I asked for it. Otherwise, I've not heard it. Then again, stones are rarely talked about. I'll leave it there for now. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 08:53, 7 September 2021 (UTC)Reply
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Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Latest comment: 3 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion
I recently found the sense for Cirno (Touhou Project character) in the entry of ⑨. However, will that sense will pass our requirement in WT:FICTION? It seems that the sense is used chiefly by the fandom community, rather than being used out of context in an attributive sense. Do you think that sense suffices for a WT:RFVCJK request?廣九直通車 (talk) 03:22, 14 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 3 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
I'm thinking of creating the entry 諸華／诸华 (Zhūhuá, “various Huas; the peoples who identified with each other in the Central Plain”). Etymologically it's clear, yet when I tried, with ctext full-text search tool, to find which text contains the earliest and authentic attestation of 諸華, these two passages turned up :
One from Zuozhuan, Duke Xiang, 4th year (468 - 300 BCE):
諸華必叛／诸华必叛 ― zhūhuá bì pàn ― The various flourishing peoples would surely turn
One from Guoyu, Jinyu 7 (475 - 221 BCE):
而失諸華／而失诸华 ― ér shī zhūhuá ― yet losing the various flourishing peoples
Guoyu Jinyu 8 contains an anachronistic (imho) mention of the Xianbei 鮮卑 , a tribe, even if "existing" during the Warring States, who were likely still not yet politically independent from the Hu (胡) tribal confederation, making me doubt the authenticity of 諸華 attestion in Guoyu.
Latest comment: 3 years ago9 comments2 people in discussion
I think I see the distinction that Chinese makes. Unfortunately, taxonomic names may not support that distinction. I recommend that you use normal English definitions to make the distinction, if possible. Do you know of English vernacular names that correspond to the Chinese distinction? I'll do some research as well. DCDuring (talk) 19:11, 28 March 2022 (UTC)Reply
@DCDuring: At least according to Xiandai Hanyu Cidian, 瓠瓜/瓠子 has white flowers while 冬瓜 has yellow flowers. Alsoo, the fruit of 瓠瓜/瓠子 is long and slender and cylindrical in shape while the fruit of 冬瓜 has a near-spherical or cylindrical shape. RcAlex36 (talk) 19:37, 28 March 2022 (UTC)Reply
One of the names for L. siceraria is white-flower gourd! You might just call it that and omit variety- or form-level names. Subspecies- and even more variety- and form-level names are not very reliable or stable. This is mostly because of hybridization. A similar problem exists for the food species of Allium (onions, garlic, leeks, scallions, etc) and Brassica (broccoli, kale, cabbage, etc). I had thought that the sub-specific names would be definitively assignable to the vernacular names of food plants, but that seems to be wrong for species that have been cultivated for centuries, especially since there has been extensive global commerce in seeds, etc. DCDuring (talk) 21:07, 28 March 2022 (UTC)Reply
If necessary, use multiple synonyms so a user could try to determine what a speaker/writer intended. Pictures may help. A usage note might be necessary if there is imprecision. Usually a vernacular name focuses on characteristics that are directly accessible to the senses (color, shape, taste etc) or to utility (or disutility) to humans. Taxonomic names have been steadily departing from that to descent, determined through chemistry (proteins, DNA, etc). DCDuring (talk) 14:11, 29 March 2022 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Hey- thanks for your work. I know very little about dzongs and Tibetan government, so I was wondering: is a cite that mentions 'Tingri Dzong' a cite for the same modern town in Tibet? Should I add "formerly a dzong" or something similar to that definition? Take a look at that page if you would- it's an important one because the Mount Everest page links to it. Thanks for any guidance you can give me. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 22:32, 28 March 2022 (UTC)Reply
Thank you and a question
Latest comment: 3 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion
Thanks for improving the entries I created. What should I do if a Mandarin phrase contains an erhua not to the last syllable (eg. 一根繩上的螞蚱／一根绳上的蚂蚱 (yī gēn shéng shàng de màzha))? Kindly answer here and I'll check later. --185.217.119.4709:15, 5 April 2022 (UTC)Reply
I just assumed it meant Transoxiana, but I haven't used or read the term personally. I'm sorry if I'm missing some context here. You're an important editor, and I know I may be a bit of an oddball so please excuse me if I am making a mistake. Keep up the good work. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 18:15, 7 April 2022 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 3 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion
Hello! Sorry to bother. I saw that my recent edit was reverted. This is my second time encountering Wikipedia references on an entry (the first being 放物線, which links both Japanese and English articles within the same section), so I applied the edit based on that precedent. After looking at other entries, I see now that this is probably an exception to the rule. Apologies if this caused you any inconvenience. My question: for future reference, should only the language provided in the section header have a Wikipedia link? Thank you. Amadeusine (talk) 06:47, 1 May 2022 (UTC) AmadeusineReply
@Amadeusine: I don't know how it works for entries of other languages, but I just didn't think it is necessary to have a link to the English wikipedia article for propofol. The entry is 異丙酚 and not propofol. To learn more about propofol one can just click propofol in the definitions section which leads to the English entry. RcAlex36 (talk) 06:54, 1 May 2022 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 3 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
According to Guangyun, 正 (glossed as 正朔 "1st month's 1st day"), though included among the píngshēng words, was originally pronounced like 政 (Mandarin zhèng < MC *t͡ɕiᴇŋH < OC *teŋ-s) . Song dynasty's scholar Zhu Xi also states that 正, as in the poem 《正月》 "first month" (in Shijing), was to be pronounced 政 . These prove that 正, meaning 1st month, indeed had an obsolete qùshēng pronunciation. The reason why its pronunciation changed is given by Zhang Shoujie here:
Do you think it safe to create another definition "first (month of the lunar year)" (albeit labelled as obsolete) under 正#Pronunciation_1 (i.e. zhèng)?
@RcAlex36: In this 2023 article Sagart proposes that 正月 was the appropriate readable form of *teŋ-ŋʷat, from earlier *tek (> 隻 zhī)-ŋʷat (> 月 yuè). While no evidence for 隻 meaning "one (cardinal number); 1st (ordinal number)" was found so far, if one would, that would refute the 嬴政 explanation. 17:51, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
Latest comment: 3 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Hey, I wanted to see if you could give a quick fix/answer for a problem I'm seeing with the etymology at 華陰. Could you modify the etymology or tell me what the connection is between 陰 and 'north'? I can't make the connection. Is it Wuxing? Is it the position of a shadow? Thanks for anything. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 18:35, 23 May 2022 (UTC)Reply
@Geographyinitiative:: To quote Shuowen Jiezi, 「陰：闇也。水之南、山之北也。」 rough translation: "Yin: it means darkness; a river's south-bank, a mountain's north-side". According to Yin_and_yang#Toponymy: "In China, as elsewhere in the Northern Hemisphere, sunlight comes predominantly from the south, and thus the south face of a mountain or the north bank of a river will receive more direct sunlight than the opposite side." Hope this helps! Erminwin (talk) 16:20, 24 May 2022 (UTC)Reply
烏油油
Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
@Erminwin: You can use the codes 'Yili-S' for Yili (translated by Steele), 'Hanfeizi-L' for Hen Feizi (translated by Liao), and 'Baihutong-T' for Baihutong (translated by Tjan). I don't think it is necessary to provide links to the texts in the module. RcAlex36 (talk) 13:35, 8 November 2022 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for catching my broken edit!
Latest comment: 2 years ago6 comments3 people in discussion
Thanks for catching my broken edit on Module:zh/data/dial-syn/外國人. I was copying out into a text editor to do the find-and-replace and I didn't do it correctly.
@Manishearth: They could be historically/etymologically derogatory, but it is not necessarily clear to me that they're all derogatory in the modern varieties unless we check all the sources (books or native speakers) again. It would probably be better to be silent on this in the module and let this information be dealt with in the actual entries themselves. Also, there are technically other entries other the those two terms you've labelled that are potentially derogatory, but again, we would have to check the sources to find out. — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }20:53, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply
About publicly available, thought recent, English translations of Chinese works for Module:zh-usex/data
Latest comment: 2 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
@Erminwin: You can perhaps follow the example at Chuci-H. Since Seven Military Classics is actually a collection of seven books, you may wish to add the title of the each book individually to the module if you are going to quote the book. RcAlex36 (talk) 03:47, 28 November 2022 (UTC)Reply
@LeCharCanon: If the first syllable has the tone contour of what a 上聲 character would normally have in this environment, then the first syllable is likely not 伊 which is 陰平. 中山方言志 gives 許個 hi24 kɛ11 after tone sandhi (there is no sandhi in the first syllable), so if you say i24 kɛ11, it is probably just an innovation of hi24 kɛ11. RcAlex36 (talk) 09:22, 1 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
@RcAlex36: my mistake then and thanks, there are some vocabulary words I'm certain of though so I'll be adding a few of those around. Actually there is one I would like to ask about, which is "都吗打" (tu mɑ tɑ) (how it's commonly written now) for tomatoes introduced by those of us who went overseas (now the dominant name for tomatoes), would that be added in that form? LeCharCanon (talk) 09:30, 1 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
@RcAlex36: 落 should be like lɔ11 (at least the same tone as 個 or 大 if that helps, I'm not actually very familiar with that stuff lol). This is one I'm 100% certain on LeCharCanon (talk) 10:05, 1 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
@RcAlex36: Yes, though very rarely, personally I'm not actually sure if there's a difference or why both are used sometimes since as far as I know they are used the same way, I'll ask around later to see if anyone knows LeCharCanon (talk) 10:18, 1 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 1 year ago3 comments2 people in discussion
I was not the person who classified 順天 as an adjective. That entry was created in 2010 (not by me) and it was initially just classified as an adjective (). I just added the "verb" classification. In retrospect, I should have deleted the mistaken adjective classification (by 順天's creator) (I myself acknowledged that "教育部國語辭典 does not split 順天 into adjective & verb" yet I thought to myself 順天's creator might have also been right that it was also an adjective besides being a verb). Just to clear up. Anyways, sincere thanks for fixing that long-standing mistake which I did not have the courage to fix! Erminwin (talk) 15:51, 14 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
Even so, I admitted to over-relying on just this one source; and the conclusion I drew from it might have been hasty and mistaken.Erminwin (talk) 14:57, 25 March 2025 (UTC)Reply
Done. Feel free to rfv-etymology any of them if you see fit. RcAlex36 (talk) 04:46, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
Calabash on Wikipedia.Wikipedia has a few other synonyms for L. siceraria. DCDuring (talk) 19:23, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
