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Latest comment: 14 years ago7 comments2 people in discussion
G'day mate,
There was a heated discussion and a vote about the translations into Chinese. The compromise is to use nested translations. I know it's awkward. I usually used assisted translations with zh template, which creates * Mandarin, then I edit and insert under * Chinese and add : after the *. This is the solution that seems to satisfy the opponents of using "Chinese". With fantizi/jiantizi I follow the advise and use fantizi first without pinyin, then jiantizi with pinyin, see divorce, for example. There are no objections to this method. A couple of templates I have created/enhanced could be used for etymology sections. Anatoli13:01, 16 June 2009 (UTC)Reply
晕~~ All this talk about all the different formatting and templates confuses me. I prefer to use these two:
I think they look quite neat and it's never hard to distinguish where one translation ends and another begins (if there are more than one). However I also want to be able to link to the Chinese wiktionary for each term - is there a template that does that too? I tried to follow the discussion about this but it went on and on and by the end of it I was still confused. What did they actually decide on as the template one is suppose to use? Also, are we supposed to add a nesting for "Mandarin" even if no other translations of other dialects have been added? Lastly, what do you mean by 'etymology sections'? Are you talking about etymologies Chinese entries? Tooironic00:34, 17 June 2009 (UTC)Reply
That's it. you can't link to the Chinese wiktionary with these templates. As A-cai said, the loose compromise was to use nested, even if there is only Mandarin. The arguments that people usually use Chinese in the sense of Mandarin, didn't work.
In English etymology sections, where it is important to show what's traditional and what's simplified, rather than showing them in order trad., simpl., pinyin. I like the templates too but there are too many entries to add in translations and as you noticed, you can't link to the Chinese wiki. Anatoli01:18, 17 June 2009 (UTC)Reply
Can you please direct me then to the template that has been decided? I will use that from now on.
I still don't understand what you mean by "English etymology sections" and what that has to do with simp/trad. Are you talking about Chinese entries in the English wiktionary?? There was no verb in that sentence so I got confused sorry. Tooironic01:30, 17 June 2009 (UTC)Reply
Sorry for being confusing :). There was no discussion about the templates, so I think you can still use it if you wish. The discussion was about Chinese vs Mandarin in translations. I can't find an example etymology section now but I mean, when you explain an English word of Chinese origin, you might be more specific about which one is traditional and which is simplified, if they are different. In my opinion, the templates would be ideal there: trad.中國/中国(Zhōngguó), simpl.中国(Zhōngguó) (pinyin:Zhōngguó) & Template:zh-zh-p but for translations, adding extra words (e.g. trad., simp.) makes entries too long sometimes and there are no links to Chinese wiki (you can't combine these with template:t template). There are no strict rules, if I am not mistaken, don't worry if you're still confused. :) I use: 叩頭/叩头(kòutóu), 叩头(kòutóu) and you can do it using the JavaScript (assisted) rather than typing the codes. Anatoli02:13, 17 June 2009 (UTC)Reply
Ah, gotcha now. I suppose I'll use that template that references the Chinese wiktionary from now on. I really think there should be a consensus on templates, however I feel I'm too much of a newbie to start such a discussion with votes, etc. Maybe yourself or Ai-cai could. Having a standard template for all this would certainly make new users feel a lot less scared when they start out.
Also, what is this JavaScript assisted thing you speak of? I myself just copy and paste the codes from notepad (yeah I'm old school!), but anything to fasten the editing process would be sweet. Cheers mate. Tooironic03:23, 17 June 2009 (UTC)Reply
I thought you knew. Here it is with the explanations: http://en.wiktionary.orghttps://dictious.com/en/WT:EDIT. When you get it to work, if you use zh for the language code, you only need to add the Chinese word and pinyin (optional) for Chinese translations. It doesn't work with nested translations, so I have to copy *: Mandarin under * Chinese. Contact user Conrad.Irwin for help. I am quite a newbie myself, don't be shy to raise questions in beer parlour, etc. but I found these discussions too time-consuming and frustrating at times. Anatoli03:54, 17 June 2009 (UTC)Reply
tx4ur entries!!
Latest comment: 14 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Latest comment: 14 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
fromEPs talk-p,fyi
"下,mandarin
dun!only,rel-terms>compounds--mind havalook?ok likethat?:)--史凡/ʂɚ˨˩fan˧˥/shi3fan2 (歡迎光臨/Welcome! 請也用/Please also use skype: sven0921為我/since I suffer RSI!) 23:06, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Yes, what you have done with those templates is correct. However, the editor who inserted the list of compounds did not format the list correctly. Right now, it is formatted as a Translations section, with "Mandarin:" in fornt of every entry and with the {{t}} template. A compounds section should not use either of those features.
Sorry, I was only halfway through finishing 下 and then got distracted by some other work. As for whether or not "Compounds" is an acceptable section header, I was merely following the style that A-cai recommended to me (see 牛 for example). I think they add a lot of useful information to the entries, and don't see any reason for not including them. Tooironic07:48, 15 July 2009 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 14 years ago11 comments2 people in discussion
Hi Carl,
You are doing a great job, mate!
Are you also checking that the blue links have Mandarin definitions (not Japanese) and are not just translingual characters?
I don't set myself specific targets but making sure all basic, most common and useful English words and expressions have Chinese (and a few more languages) translations. I've gone through lists of basic adjectives, nouns and verbs to make sure they have a Russian, Chinese, Japanese, Arabic, German and French translations. Occasionally I add Spanish, Polish, Czech, Swedish, etc. For proper names I also often add Korean, Hebrew, Greek and Hindu, often without transliteration. I am planning to at least learn or relearn how to read these scripts. I learned some Korean but abandoned too early.
I see you are reading a text and add words as you come across missing words. Good tactics, I use this to add translations in English entries.
Tbot started producing some entries from translations, which then are marked for human attention, unfortunately, it doesn't happen with Chinese, perhaps because of the complexity. It's not fair!
Another thing. Some Mandarin categories use pinyin for sorting. Maybe we should consider this? It's easier, more natural for English speakers and too common in bilingual dictionaries. Need to check with A-cai about this. What do you think?
Another idea I want to share with you. In assisted translations, I use page name to make sure that the page becomes blue eventually, I mean that there wiil be a page for 假 but not necessarily for 假的. If a translation must contain a suffix 的 or something, I remove it from the "page name".
Thanks for the encouragement! Let me break this down into bite-sized pieces...
Checking that the blue links have Mandarin definitions. Yes I am adding Mandarian to both red and blue links (e.g. 山脈).
The need for more basic expressions. I know exactly what you mean. At the moment, I'd say wiktionary has a fairly decent Mandarin "word-dictionary (詞典)" but a pretty shithouse "character-dictionary (字典)". Even common characters like 是, 的 and 有 lack detailed entries. I would improve them myself, but I find that kind of thing extremely boring. Though I have been editing the occasional one-syllable word, usually when it's a little more interesting than the average character (e.g. 趁, 囧 or 牛).
Mandarin categories that use pinyin for sorting. Not sure what you mean by this. Currently, all traditional and simplified entries that are formatted correctly are sorted by pinyin and stroke order respectively.
What is Tbot?
About Russian. Yes I am always up learning the odd extra language, just for fun! Maybe we could meet up over the holidays and do some language exchange over some vodka or something!
The dreaded 的. Yes, I'm aware of the problem with 的 in adjective definitions. Not sure how to fix this though, when the "standard" template (so to speak) for Eng>Chi translations does not allow you to break up a translation into different entries.
A quick reference to what I meant by 的 issue, a good work around is to link to 假 but display 假的, like this: 假的(jiǎ-de). I'll get back to you on other questions. Anatoli02:21, 23 September 2009 (UTC)Reply
Tbot entries, automatically made from translations: , a sample Japanese entry: カメラ. We should request and see if Mandarin can be given the same treatment. I am not 100% about the status but some people are unhappy about Tbot (translation (ro)bot). Anatoli02:25, 23 September 2009 (UTC)Reply
Sort order. 化妆 uses rs=人02 (by radical), not by huàzhuāng or hua4zhuang1 for sorting (by pinyin). Some categories, like Category:zh-cn:Capital cities|bei3jing1 and Category:zh-tw:Capital cities|匕03北京 use a different approach for sorting see 北京. The former uses pinyin, the latter radicals. That means pinyin is accepted, especially in zh-cn. If you open each category: , , you will see that mainland Chinese are sorted by Roman letters and Taiwanese by radicals. Does it make sense? Yeah, let's catch up. I only I don't drink vodka at the moment, I had a nose surgery recently and I don't feel quite well after alcohol. :) Anatoli04:32, 23 September 2009 (UTC)Reply
Haha, yes I think I know what you mean about the pinyin sorting, but what is the problem here do you think? This whole thing confuses me a bit. As far as I know, simp does one thing, trad does another thing, and everyone's happy. Although I'm not sure if I should capitalise proper nouns. I asked A-cai but he hasn't got back to me yet. Tooironic04:46, 23 September 2009 (UTC)Reply
Yeah but entries seem to follow radical sorting only, not pinyin, that's why I referred you to 化妆. I am not too happy, since radical sorting is more complex, takes more effort, adding a sort by pinyin is way simpler, like many categories do. Besides, as I said modern Chinese-English dictionaries are mainly sorted by A, B, C. Hmm, if you open Category:zh-cn:Nouns, they are all just Roman letters, why do we need "rs" at all?
Pinyin with tone marks is capitalised for place names, it's following the rules of capitalisation and word breakup as per Wikipedia. Anatoli05:02, 23 September 2009 (UTC)Reply
Again, I'm not sure what you mean. If you check out ] and scroll down, 化妆 (both simp and trad) is listed alphabetically according to pinyin. As for the RS, it is there for the sorting of words in the tw categories. It's a bit of extra work, admittedly, but I guess it means people from Taiwan (and other people who don't know pinyin) can search for entries too.
And regarding proper nouns, it seems they are only capitalised in the entry pinyin itself, not in the sorting header (or whatever it's called). e.g. pin=Běijīng|pint=bei3jing1. Tooironic05:21, 23 September 2009 (UTC)Reply
OK, let's drop it about sorting order, 算了. Do you think it's a good idea to create entries from translations (using Tbot)? Without human intervention and knowing that the bot is very basic, the entries may become very basic and will require heavy editing but to me having ==Mandarin== ===Noun=== 种族主义 (zhǒngzúzhǔyì) racism is better than no entry at all. The Chinese word can only be found from the English entry's translation or via search. The differences between jiantizi/fantizi and other tags can be added later. Anatoli05:50, 23 September 2009 (UTC)Reply
Carl. If you think it's a good idea, please support this request. User:Robert Ullmann is the person who created or looks after Tbot. Although the quality may suffer, your target of 10,000 Mandarin entries may be achieved easier. On the other hand, it would be harder to overtake other languages if their entries are created from translations but it doesn't happen with Chinese. Anatoli06:02, 23 September 2009 (UTC)Reply
Yeah you're right, more entries (albeit non-standard and less informative ones) is better than nothing. I'll leave a message on there. Tooironic02:36, 30 September 2009 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 14 years ago7 comments3 people in discussion
Hi Carl,
I have just created these two entries, 援助交際 is also in Japanese. I created the Category:zh:Japanese derivations. Could you check the "rs=" portion of it. I don't know what it should be! The radicals used are 扌 but what is the number after it (total number of strokes - strokes in 扌 doesn't work? Anatoli02:01, 30 September 2009 (UTC)Reply
Actually the radical (in its full form, so to speak) is 手 not 扌. For every character, all you have to do is go to its page (援), scroll down to "Han character", find the line: 援 (radical 64 手+9..., copy the 手+9 part and delete the plus sign. You will also have to put a zero before the number if it's under 10. So you end up with 手09. I have amended those entries for you. Cheers. Tooironic02:32, 30 September 2009 (UTC)Reply
Thanks, mate. I'll use it as a guide. Before I was just finding words starting with the same character and copied the rs= part. I added 卡拉OK to the list of Japanese derivations by adding "zh". If you remember any Chinese entries of Japanese origin, please use "ja" and "zh" in the etyl tag - Japanese->Mandarin. Anatoli02:41, 30 September 2009 (UTC)Reply
Remaining strokes? Thanks, Sven. 援 has 12 strokes (Wenlin software). 扌 has 3. 12-3=9. You're right. Should we be using 扌 (3 strokes) or 手 (4 strokes)? I may not be able to understand your answer, sorry. --Anatoli06:41, 30 September 2009 (UTC)Reply
umean deduct3/4?-dep. on cidian;) ,"framed":false,"label":"Reply","flags":,"classes":}'>Reply
Hi Anatoli. I don't add translation requests for languages that don't have contributors who respond to them. All of thoese languages, bar Greek and Thai, have over 100 translation requests - Vietnamese has 266! So I don't see the point in putting them in my rounds if the requests just pile up, although perhaps now I will add Greek and Thai to my auto-list. If they pile up to over 100 though I'll stop requesting them. Cheers. Tooironic01:38, 9 October 2009 (UTC)Reply
Actually, by that criteria I should probably stop requesting French, German, Japanese, Portuguese and Spanish. Sigh. I don't pay attention to these languages as much as I should. Tooironic01:42, 9 October 2009 (UTC)Reply
I see your point, perhaps, it will attract more contributors in the future. I do add French, German, Japanese and sometimes Portuguese and Spanish translations when I can (certainly Russian). For languages with non-Roman scripts, I sometimes seek the spelling for proper names, even if the language is not my area of interest or expertise (Greek, Korean, Hindi, Hebrew and Thai), I think it's useful or interesting to know how a city is spelled in a different script. For the languages you listed last we do have contributors. Anatoli02:05, 9 October 2009 (UTC)Reply
When you add trreqs, please leave a space between * and trreq-template. If the space is not there, the system creates two translation lines for languages that have more than one tranlation to the requested term. --Hekaheka15:31, 25 October 2009 (UTC)Reply
I had this experience when the JavaScript created two lines per language, not sure where there was space or not. Also, somehow, when Mandarin is added,, I often can't add others - especially Japanese, have to save and restart, complains about gloss format. For this reason, I often add Chinese as the last. Hekaheka, I think I add a space too.
Carl, for nested translations, please use *:, not **, seems to be the convention, not sure if it makes any difference for the assisted translations. Anatoli22:37, 25 October 2009 (UTC)Reply
Actually I thought ** was the convention, and I was making sure all Chinese translations followed it! Can someone check if this is right? Tooironic07:47, 26 October 2009 (UTC)Reply
Sorry, mate. I am not sure where to find the info any more. Maybe, we can ask A-cai, as this was a compromise to have * Chinese: *: Mandarin: he agreed to or suggested. The nesting applies to Serbian or Serbo-Croatian where they use *: Cyrillic: and *: Roman: I also observed bot fixing :* to *: in nested translations. Ivan Štambuk will know as well, if it's important. Anatoli22:26, 26 October 2009 (UTC)Reply
Found it, I remembered A-cai mentioning difficulties in translations to dialects (the discussion about * Chinese: vs * Mandarin:) and he used a word as an example. I was right. Please check child's translation. That's A-cai's work. To add another level - *:: (another colon).Anatoli23:08, 26 October 2009 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 14 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Hi Carl,
You asked about this proverb (Confucian saying) in Tea room. I have added the basic entry with translations. The English section needs some attention but not sure yet what to add. Anatoli03:10, 14 October 2009 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 14 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
No need to delete a talk page when the content is relevant to the article. You're free to mark done and remove the template, but I see no reason to delete this. Mglovesfun (talk) 11:52, 13 November 2009 (UTC)Reply
Re: Hiya
Latest comment: 14 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Hello! What would you like to know about Esperanto? --Shibo77 00:33, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to learn it actually. Hehe. But I don't know where to start. Do you have MSN? Send me an email if you can (click Toolbox -> Email this user), I'd love to have a chat. Cheers. Tooironic00:38, 17 November 2009 (UTC)Reply
Chinese meetup
Latest comment: 14 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Hi Carl,
Please check your email, it's urgent! Sorry for the short notice. If you can't make it or miss my messages, please join in two weeks. --Anatoli05:31, 2 December 2009 (UTC)Reply
Translations to be checked
Latest comment: 14 years ago7 comments3 people in discussion
When you create "Translations to be checked" -tables, please remember to add ttbc-tags to the languages that need checking. Otherwise no one will be able to find the articles with "translations to be checked" sections. See e.g. no way. --Hekaheka04:29, 17 December 2009 (UTC)Reply
Hi Carl, please check my Chinese translations in no way, when you have a chance! Although I think they are right, they may not be as strong or appropriate or the most useful.--Anatoli05:12, 17 December 2009 (UTC)Reply
Yeah I think you were a little off with your translation there mate. I don't think 荒诞不经 can be used as an interjection. I replaced it with 不會吧. I also added another sense (for indicating rejection). Cheers. Tooironic05:16, 17 December 2009 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for checking, mate. I think you meant CAN'T be used as an interjection. I will probably get back to these translations for Japanese. --Anatoli05:35, 17 December 2009 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for the welcome. Are there any bots that can kind of clean up to make sure categories are added to entries, etc.? Thanks for your help --达伟23:45, 19 December 2009 (UTC)Reply
Considering the importance of the Chinese language on a world-wide scale, and considering the relative ease for someone who is a programmer, it REALLY should be created. But unfortunately I know nothing about bots.
On another note, can we start adding (systematically or not) the GIF/PNG graphics of the hanzi/kanji keystrokes for Chinese and Japanese, like the French and Japanese Wiktionaries use? --达伟16:21, 20 December 2009 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 14 years ago9 comments4 people in discussion
I guess my addition was a misunderstanding of the interjection categorization of "No way" in English. 没门 could be used to reply to an inquiry such as, "What if we try to get money from mom and dad?" (that might not be the best example but I'm just thinking at random). In English one might conceivably reply "No way. That wouldn't work."
However, I have no objections to your changes.
Regarding Northern Mandarin "没门儿" may be used by speakers from many geographical regions but its origins seem to be the Beijing area...so perhaps the label is inappropriate, but etymologically it's northern, I believe. --达伟06:48, 21 December 2009 (UTC)Reply
Actually, now I'm not so sure. I just did a survey of a dozen native speakers on MSN to see if 沒門 can indeed express disbelief (citing the "You failed your exam again? No way!" as an example) and I've got a whole range of answers, from those thinking it's fine, to others stating it's strange, unnatural or simply incorrect. My 現代漢語詞典 lists impossibility as a possible usage of 沒門, but it would seem this usage only sounds natural in certain contexts. I guess it would be best just to leave it out - 不會吧 seems good enough, plus 怎麼會呢 and 不可能, which a friend of mine just suggested. Thanks for your speedy reply! Cheers :) Tooironic07:09, 21 December 2009 (UTC)Reply
Thanks. My argument would be that 没门/沒門 would not be an appropriate reply to the "You failed your exam again?" remark. As I mentioned, my confusion was due to failing to distinguish the two English meanings of "No way" (i.e. the interjection of surprise, and the affirmative statement of impossibility when one is asked a question or presented a proposal). Interestingly, I noted that 没门/沒門 is listed as a synonym of 沒戲.
On a totally different subject, I've been noticing a lot of Mandarin words linked in blue that, after you follow the link, actually have no Chinese entry but merely a Japanese kanji entry. This can be problematic b/c people who want to create Chinese entries won't realize that one is missing, since superficially it is blue...I wish there was a way to correct this. . . --达伟21:47, 21 December 2009 (UTC)Reply
Hi 达伟, there is no way to fix it and no need to, in my opinion. If both entries exist, the blue link will go to ja or zh/cmn, otherwise with what's available. It is the same situation with all the languages where words are spelled the same way. Also, the single character entries may no have lexical info, only the character, very generic info. It's the job of the editor to check this - also for the redirects and the accuracy/completeness of the actual entries (with care!). It's only a click away to check.--Anatoli23:01, 21 December 2009 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for the reply. I agree it's only a click away to check, but I wish there were a way to do this more efficiently (i.e. time saved checking is more type creating entries). If the link shows up blue on a list of HSK Mandarin words (for example), but in actuality only has a Japanese entry, that is confusing.--达伟14:11, 22 December 2009 (UTC)Reply
Hope you don't mind one last piece of trivia regarding 没门儿...it's interesting that the Japanese entry on wiktionary clearly indicates that it's a dialect, Beijing form --> "方言、北京". --达伟14:11, 22 December 2009 (UTC)Reply
I don't have an opinion on the above discussion, but I just wanted to say how encouraged I have been in recent months to finally have the help of a few contributors who are knowledgeable in Mandarin. I was beginning to think that the day might never come, as I had been toiling away for nearly two and half years already. However, when I see the above discussion taking place, it makes me think maybe Wiktionary has a place for Asian languages after all :) 加油! -- A-cai15:05, 23 December 2009 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 14 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion
Seeing as I don't speak Chinese, I am not sure about the usefulness of the "drug" entries made by User:Psoup. I would love to hear your opinion on the matter, though :) Razorflame13:34, 30 January 2010 (UTC)Reply
I get what you mean about some of them (or all of them?) being encyclopedic, but at least he formats them correctly! You have no idea how much extra work and stress is created by anons and other users creating dodgy, ill-formatted, unattested entries. Anyway, TCM has complex, specialised terminology; such entries could be useful for people studying that discipline. Though I'm no doctor, scrolling through the entries he's created, I don't see how any of them could be SoP. Tooironic15:05, 30 January 2010 (UTC)Reply
I fully recognize everyone's right to his or her own opinion, but etymologically or pedagogically speaking, I would think that such a category (and others like it, e.g. -zhuyi, -jia, -yu, -guo, -li, etc.) would be the height of usefulness....My vote is not to delete....Of course I'm open to hearing debate--达伟02:30, 10 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
For the hundredth time, I've already answered this question. You were blocked because you vandalised Wiktionary with repeated bad and incorrectly formatted edits. You were given multiple warnings by myself and other admins, but continued to do so. ---> Tooironic11:15, 10 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 14 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
I suggest you RfV (rather than RfD) these en masse. This will slow down 123abc from adding them, because he’ll need to attest each of them per the CFI. I’m sure there’ll be willingness to apply strictly the letter of the RfV process (i.e., each term gets exactly one month) in their cases. Those that survive can then be considered in a policy and/or an RfD discussion. Those that are found to be idiomatic are likely to be kept, though I’m sure this format:
Are you going to be the one to change the formatting for the hundreds of entries 123abc has and will create in the future? They shouldn't be there in the first place; that's why I RfD'd them (though I understand now that, bizarrely, RfV is a more ruthless process). If we keep even just one of 123abc's entries then we must keep them all, which will ultimately mean that almost any combination of SoP/Chinglish words can be kept as entries. Tooironic19:22, 4 February 2010 (UTC)Reply
The slippery-slope argument doesn’t apply if we require that they be attested. Once consensus has been established regarding the way to deal with this class of terms, if 123abc adds them in contravention of that, his contributions will be considered vandalistic or POV-pushing. I’m just telling you the easiest and most effective way of going about this. †﴾(u):Raifʻhār(t):Doremítzwr﴿22:15, 4 February 2010 (UTC)Reply
admin
Latest comment: 14 years ago9 comments4 people in discussion
There is been a discussion about the lack of admins on this website. I can't remember where I saw it now. So this is probably why. Jamesjiao → T◊C03:55, 10 February 2010 (UTC)Reply
good job
Latest comment: 14 years ago9 comments6 people in discussion
good job on 异类.
by the way, do you use zhongwen.com (the "zipu"). I love that website beause of the wiki-like link features between different radicals and character elements. I wish we could set up a similar feature on the 字 entries for CJKV (i.e. the entry for the character itself not polysyllabic compounds, 词). right now we have radicals and Kangxi,but not links to characters with similar or related elements...ah well--"if wishes were horses" :) --67.159.85.6016:58, 16 February 2010 (UTC)Reply *PS how do you say that in Chinese? just kidding, you're not a dictionary :)
PSS I am user 达伟. sorry for the bad handwriting--in the middle of class.
You're right, our 字典 is lagging behind in that regard. But it's a huge amount of work, and I myself much prefer editing and creating polysyllabic compounds. I use Wenlin. Tooironic21:59, 16 February 2010 (UTC)Reply
Without launching an all out search, here's what I found for "wishes were horses": see *link removed as it was stuffing up the discussion page*. Re. 字典, I agree I wouldn't prefer to do that work myself. But if an unknown stranger magically did all of it for us, of course, that would be great. Perhaps we can ask Nbarth :) --152.3.128.17814:04, 17 February 2010 (UTC) (达伟)Reply
On an unrelated note, did you see that another overzealous person is going around creating toneless pinyin entries that conflict with the character entries and the toned-pinyin entries -- see, e.g., zuoyong/作用 and my recent harmonizing attempts. Yikes. --152.3.128.17814:37, 17 February 2010 (UTC)(达伟)Reply
Sure, no argument here, but from a policy standpoint, the with-tone pinyin, without-tone pinyin, and character (simplified and traditional) versions all need to be coordinated...--71.111.229.1901:25, 19 February 2010 (UTC)Reply
I really don't see much value in separate pinyin entries. If they do exist, the word senses and examples should be in Hanzi entries, otherwise it's very error-prone. 71.111.229.19, don't you want to register? --Anatoli01:35, 19 February 2010 (UTC)Reply
In an ideal world we would have a bot that automatically coordinates/synchs all definitional content between the four versions of the word (pinyin-tone, pinyin-no tone, trad. char., simplif. char.). I'm agnostic whether we should have toneless pinyin entries -- I strongly believe we should set consistent policy. Though if we abolish toneless pinyin we should create a redirect system so someone types in Zhongguo gets redirected to the proper pinyin version with tones. However, maybe Chinese entries on wiktionary are in their infancy so it would be counterproductive to be too harsh on people...--达伟17:06, 19 February 2010 (UTC)(I am 71.111 above)Reply
亞美尼亞
Latest comment: 14 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Latest comment: 14 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Hi Carl,
Could you please have a look at 啊 - the particle/interjection/phrase suffix with many meanings and pronunciations. I am not sure how to make this entry. I don't quite like Wenlin's dictionary entry on this either. --Anatoli22:38, 23 February 2010 (UTC)Reply
No, you don't have to if you have no interest in it, of course. Sorry, if I sounded like I am giving orders. :) I was only asking for help because you are good at it and I thought you might be interested. I was thinking of making a few particle definitions but wanted a better example. Anyway, if you decide to do it, I will follow. --Anatoli05:32, 24 February 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 14 years ago6 comments2 people in discussion
I think this is one of 123abc's incarnations. I am considering blocking him. I have left a note on 123abc talkpage advising him of the vote re: making toneless pinyin entries nonstandard.. however he has ignored it and continued with his quest to make others' lives a living hell. Just want your take on this. Jamesjiao → T◊C05:18, 26 February 2010 (UTC)Reply
The vote is for Pinyin syllables only. ---91.106.59.218
It's pretty obvious it's the same user. I would push for a block for both the registered account and the IP. The amount of extra work this user is creating for us just keeps piling up. It's ridiculous and something has to be done about it. Tooironic00:18, 28 February 2010 (UTC)Reply
Yes. He also keeps recreating A Q after God knows how many times it's been deleted due to the space between the letters. Where are we supposed to discuss this kind of stuff? I don't think my admin powers have been granted yet. Otherwise I would block him completely. It's a complete and utter waste of our time as editors to have to deal with this vandalism. Tooironic03:01, 1 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
May I ask that you always have a second session open on Recent Changes whenever you are editing Wiktionary. You may mark good edits as "patrolled", revert vandalism and stupidity by either deleting new entries or by using the "rollback" function. You may block vandals at your own discretion.
Note: As there are times when no sysop is active, it would be useful if you start your patrolling from the time you last left the system. Cheers. SemperBlotto19:27, 1 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
Heaven knows. I'm very hesitant to define any Mandarin word as a "suffix" as they're not really that common. Even in cases where a word might act like a suffix, defining it as a noun is usually more useful. Moreover, I very rarely do any editing for pinyin entries. For anyone above a beginner's level they are almost useless (I say almost because the only way they could be useful is if they were a) correctly formatted and b) every entry had a pinyin counter-entry to assist users in finding definitions. As for 123abc, I'll cross that bridge if and when I come to it. ---> Tooironic12:01, 2 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
I don't think any Mandarin speaker - native or not - would even think about adding a hyphen to a pinyin syllable. To my knowledge we don't add hyphens to hanzi entries either, although I could be wrong. ---> Tooironic12:07, 2 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
Firstly, could you please sign your name (by typing ~~~~)? It's extremely rude not to. Or better yet, register an account. Secondly, you're probably right, hyphens are a good idea, although I would still want to see non-hyphenated entries as alternative spellings to aid in user searches. ---> Tooironic12:54, 2 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
The point is about adding a hyphen but not about signature. ---91.106.59.218
Capitalization and etymology are not wrong, please see related dictionaries for reference. An administrator should do its business objectively. 91.104.36.11602:53, 10 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 14 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion
Hi, thank you for your messages. I know the formatting issue. I do this just because of the tool, which don't know the formatting convention, and my laziness. Sorry for inconvenience.--Dingar03:35, 7 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 14 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Do we really need to block a user for arguing that a "proper" noun like luomahua, which is often un-capitalized in English, should be uncapitalized in pinyin? In any case we should set and promulgate a consistent policy for capitalization of pinyin (with or without tone)--达伟14:53, 10 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
It's not a proper noun, but a countable process. We don't even have it capitalised in the English entry. A policy for pinyin capitalisation does sound good though. As for that user, s/he was blocked for his/her history of bad edits after multiple warnings. ---> Tooironic05:18, 11 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
Finnish translations
Latest comment: 12 years ago7 comments2 people in discussion
Terve,
I see you're interested in Finnish. Finnish translations are easy to find. Add a language option to Google. You can also add words you know are Finnish, e.g. Intia (India). --Anatoli05:12, 11 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
Nah, I just always add Finnish translation requests to help out the Finnish editors (they always finish them in a couple of hours, it's quite amazing). ---> Tooironic05:20, 11 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
Like I said, I add translation requests. But I don't actually speak any Finnish, hehe. Anyway, it's the only language on Wiktionary that actually does more than two translation requests a week. ---> Tooironic05:35, 11 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
I see you are having fun with Finnish trreq. :) Actually, most Chinese city names you ask the translations for are spelled in toneless Pinyin in Finnish, so Shijiazhuang and Yunnan is the Finnish name for Shijiazhuang and Yunnan, even if the Finnish Wikipedia were missing the names. --Anatoli22:39, 28 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 14 years ago8 comments2 people in discussion
Thanks for the reponse on 储藏室. We'll see if anyone else weighs in. However, perhaps this is starting to sound like a consistent theme from me, but shouldn't we have a standard policy--what is PoS, what isn't? Perhaps your standard is whether it's in Wenlin. I don't have access to that at the moment. But some standard should be set...I guess arguably some line could be drawn between occupation (音乐家, etc.) nationality (中国人) vs. other suffixes (e.g.室), but either way, some consistent line should be drawn, I'd think--达伟09:04, 16 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
I wouldn't use Wenlin as a standard for PoS as it contains many many PoS entries (that's why it's so bloody complete, as it were). There are no hard and fast rules as to what constitutes PoS, especially for a language like Chinese which has a quite different idea of what constitutes a word than European languages (thus making it more complex and confusing). Let's just judge each entry on its own merit; IMO it's great having entries like 音乐家, 中国人, 储藏室, etc, because they could really be helpful to the average user, and are not long enough to be easily decoded as separate words. ---> Tooironic10:55, 16 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
Yes I meant SoP, sorry. I just go back to my common theme of establishing consistent standards, but your reasoning is strong. Let's see how this place out over time.
However, I also meant to ask a quick question. I wouldn't know if your interests include non-Mandarin 'lects such as Cantonese and Minnan/Hokkien/Taiwanese, but I was just struck by the fact that despite the important (in numerical terms of Minnan/Taiwanese and Wu/Shanghainese), the pure character/hanzi entries do not contain either of those 'lects. if you had to predict, do you think there's anyway these are likely to get included in the future? Thanks!--达伟15:16, 17 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
Sorry for the random chatter but I just wanted to point out one of the strangest things I've seen: 伲 has an entry and says it's from the "Shanghai dialect", yet there is no Shanghainese/Wu on the page...--达伟11:34, 21 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
I don't speak any other dialect but Mandarin. As you probably know, A-cai is a big (or only?) contributor of Min Nan and has done some great work in that area. Honestly, it's hard enough to get decent editors for Mandarin, let alone other dialects with less speakers, but never say never. :) ---> Tooironic11:46, 21 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for the reply. I'll speak to A-cai. In any case, here's something unrelated: do you think the professed Mandarin definition in the following entry should be deleted -- 阿山? I think it probably should be...--达伟23:50, 21 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 14 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Thanks for your advice at the Tea Room. Hopefully we can collaborate some on improving Han entries here. I've done some more research into how Unicode determines variants, some are legitimate and properly sourced within the Unicode files themselves (with references to specific dictionaries). But others are questionable, but I don't know how to fix them without performing original research, particularly the rarer characters. It seems that a lot of variants cropped up in Unicode based on a belief that the characters are actually the same, with "minor sylistic" differences that don't warrant separate characters. See w:Z-variant. But because one of the major language systems (Chinese, Japanese, or Korean) treat them as distinct characters, they included both in Unicode (dis-unified Han characters) for backward compatibility to one of those other encoding standards. But there's no way to check how they came to the determination that the characters are the same. Check out the discussions I found here, here, and ]http://tclab.kaist.ac.kr/~otfried/Mule/unihan.html here]
Other variants that it gives have a little more basis in fact. In addition to the regular Traditiona/Simplified forms, they also have the following
Semantic variant - characters with the same meaning and pronunciation, but different shapes. 猫 and 貓 (cat)
Special semantic variant - characters with the same meaning and pronunciation, but different shapes, but that also have a separate meaning in some instances. 井 (well) and 丼 (well; bowl of food)
Z-variants (mentioned above) - same meaning, pronunciation, but only minor differences in shape. 說 and 説 (speak) or 黑 and 黒 (black) for instance. That are obviously minor sylistic differences. But for 仃 (lonely) and 停 (suspend) or 朸 (meaning unkown) and 扐 (divination), I think the differences are more than minor. CEDICT lists them as Z-variants having "the same etymology" which comes straight from the Unihan database. Jim Breen with JEDICT has stated he treats characters as variants if 2 of 3 factors are identical (form, reading, meaning).
I'm all for providing as much information to readers, but we should probably limit Unicode zVariants in articles if it is 1. obviously similar (to someone conversant in Han/Kanji characters) or 2. Can be backed up by a source other than Unicode. If it is a well known or commonly-used variant, one major dicationary probably will include it. As far as displaying, Japanese wiktionary has a "variants" line right in the translingual section (黑 (black) and 鉄 (iron)) that lists every possible traditional, simplified, shinjitai, shortand, synonym variant out there, properly idenfitying each as to how it relates to the main character. I also like that they make the fonts bigger than what we currently have in the standard Han entry. I think something like this would be much better than simply burying a "see also" tophat (currently illegible in some instances) in the article. I just don't know how to go about proposing such a change. What do you think?Dcmacnut22:14, 18 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
To be honest I don't really do many hanzi entries. Among the hundreds of entries I create for Wiktionary each week, only a couple would be hanzi. I find them laborious. So much bloody work needs to go into each one just to put it at any level comparable to other dictionaries. Moreover, I'm a perfectionist, so I can't stop editing an entry until I've included every piece of information I can. Creating entries for Mandarin words is time-consuming enough; in hanzi entries it's tenfold. Lastly, I think cataloguing variants for these kind of characters - of which many are quite rare - is not really a priority when you have hundreds of simple words yet to be defined. So, yeah, that's my stance on the whole thing. Good luck! ---> Tooironic22:25, 18 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
Thanks, Carl. I don't know if I agree with that it is from English. The literal meaning is the same in many other languages, might as well be of Arabic origin: الشرق الأوسط (al-sharq al-'áwsaT) - literally: "East of centre". What I meant is, do you categorise these words like Place names, or something, e.g. Japanese has "Category:ja:Place names". I didn't know where to put 巴勒斯坦 either, which is not a country.
See the Wikipedia page. It appears as if it is indeed of British English origin. Evidently, other translations like that of Arabic are probably back-translations/calques. As for 巴勒斯坦... "Place names" is too generic IMO. The English entry lists it as a country, so we could always follow their suit. I understand their criteria for "country" on Wiktionary (and probably Wikipedia too) is quite open.
Latest comment: 14 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Hi Carl, could you check for legitimacy, please? Are we still working in toneless pinyin? I voted against it but not sure what was decided. May leave just English, if it's not allowed. --Anatoli02:49, 22 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
Didn't they vote that toneless pinyin should be soft-redirected as misspellings? However there must be hundreds or even thousands of these toneless pinyins, so without a bot it will be hard to change them all. ---> Tooironic04:58, 22 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 13 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion
Admittedly Cantonese isn't Mandarin, but AutoFormat is tagging ===Jyutping syllable=== as a noun standard header. Should this header be added to the list of accepted ones? I'd ask A-cai, but he's on longterm wikibreak. Mglovesfun (talk) 10:07, 8 April 2010 (UTC)Reply
"Toneless pinyin entries are not helpful to anyone"
Latest comment: 14 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion
I think that's somewhat inaccurate. Say someone is reading a transcription of some song in Chinese, and they keep seeing the same couple of words. They're not going to know the tones, and if we have 4 entries with the same pronunciation sans tones... they're just going to have to look through all 4. — opiaterein — 13:22, 19 April 2010 (UTC)Reply
Users can still search using misspellings toneless pinyin, for instance , and even without proper apostrophes . Moreover, toneless pinyin entries create a huge amount of unnecessary work for words which have dubious attestations as it is. Focusing on, at the very least, pinyin entries with tones, or even better, actual hanzi entries (gasp!) should be our priority. ---> Tooironic13:47, 19 April 2010 (UTC)Reply
Yeah, I would call this SoP. It is an example of emphasis created through four-character duplication which can be done with many verbs/adjectives. I just did a quick check and none of the major online dictionaries include this as a word. I don't think we've discussed the inclusion of these kinds of Mandarin phrases on Wiktionary before. I guess the only way to know for sure is to put it up for deletion. Whether we get enough Mandarin experts in the discussion is another matter. ---> Tooironic22:08, 20 April 2010 (UTC)Reply
No shit Sherlock, whose else's would it be? I never said we should delete these kind of entries on sight, but rather that they should be held to CFI scrutiny like any other entry. ---> Tooironic10:03, 21 April 2010 (UTC)Reply
If I had 1000 years (and as much patience) I would learn Mandarin. Right now I'm working on Romance languages - sticking to what I know. Mglovesfun (talk) 22:10, 20 April 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 13 years ago9 comments3 people in discussion
Can you explain to all us Mandarin novices/newbies why toneless pinyin is so bad? There's a lot of debate on this but I think a very high percentage of editors don't get it, because of lack of exposure to Mandarin. Mglovesfun (talk) 23:38, 26 April 2010 (UTC)Reply
Or, better yet, I'll give an example. The toneless pinyin combination of shi and shi (shishi) has anywhere from 39 (according to Wenlin) to 47 (according to Sogou, my input software) possible word-meanings (shìshí, shīshī, shǐshí, etc, etc, etc). And this is just one word! We could say the same for many other toneless combinations (jishi has 35-41, yiji has 12-28, etc). We already have to deal with complicated formatting for all Mandarin entries, plus create duplicates for trad/simp equivalents; I don't think we should have to put up with having to define useless toneless pinyin entries which, because all Mandarin entries can already be searched for without tones, are of no use to anyone. ---> Tooironic00:20, 27 April 2010 (UTC)Reply
That is indeed a good reason. BTW when 123abc creates entries in the Latin script, but lists a pinyin spelling, what are these entries, then? If he (or she) is giving a toned pinyin variant, why not just move them there? Mglovesfun (talk) 21:11, 27 April 2010 (UTC)Reply
I think Mglovesfun means the move of the entry: shishi -> shìshí as an example. The move would require some changes to the entry. I personally don't see much value in toned pinyin entries either. The hanzi based entried have pinyin provided, which is searchable (with or without tones). No good Chinese dictionaries have entries in pinyin, they are only provided as phonetic guide and for sorting (one of the ways to sort Mandarin dictionaries, especially common in mainland China). I would only keep pinyin entries if they have become part of English or another language, even if they are jargon words, like qigong, Putonghua, guanxi, taiji, Han, jiantizi, etc. but they would have the heading of the other language, not Mandarin. --Anatoli01:02, 28 April 2010 (UTC)Reply
Baby steps, Anatoli. Somehow I don't think we're going to see a ban on pinyin entries anytime this century, so we may as well be content with making sure that they are actually toned. You're right though, they really shouldn't be included, but I do remember reading some convincing arguments as to their attestation in Mandarin songs, signs, etc. ---> Tooironic09:03, 28 April 2010 (UTC)Reply
Per the current WT:RFD debate (last one on page, as of this time and date) if 123abc's entries are not pinyin, what are they? That is, he specifies pinyin, tra and sim, so what does that leave out? Mglovesfun (talk) 10:53, 14 May 2010 (UTC)Reply
Question
Latest comment: 13 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion
Are we allowing toneless Pinyin entries now, or are we just allowing this one IP to create toneless Pinyin entries? Just wondering... Razorflame16:51, 9 May 2010 (UTC)Reply
Anatoli and I are trying to figure out the best way to draft a proposal to effectively prevent anymore toneless pinyin entries from being created. However we've never undertaken such a thing before - maybe you can help? FYI there is more than one =IP creating toneless pinyin entries, however we're almost 99.9 per cent certain it's 123abc editing anonymously. ---> Tooironic23:37, 9 May 2010 (UTC)Reply
I was fairly certain that it was 123abc editing, and if that is the case, then he is evading his block and the IPs should be blocked as they are seen editing. Unfortunately, I hold no sway in the community, so I would probably not be the best person to ask for help in drafting a proposal, especially when it is for a language that I don't speak. Razorflame02:16, 10 May 2010 (UTC)Reply
Thanks
Latest comment: 13 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Hi there, a belated thanks for your advice here. I've found the site you recommended extremely useful.
Latest comment: 13 years ago9 comments3 people in discussion
I wish to edit the babel template to add the <noinclude>{{documentation}}</noinclude> string and create the instructions subpage (now in talk) but it seems protected as included in your page. regards--Pierpao12:23, 11 May 2010 (UTC)Reply
To do it I have to add in template:babel the string <noinclude>{{documentation}}</noinclude> (see Template:t)
But I cant't. It's editing protected because is included in your page. This tell the message that appears if I can try to edit the Template:babel if you want to read it try to edit it as unlogged user. Thanks--Pierpao12:55, 11 May 2010 (UTC)Reply
I have no idea what you just said but you seem trustworthy enough. I'll unprotect it temporarily; let me know when you are finished doing whatever it is you are doing. ---> Tooironic09:33, 12 May 2010 (UTC)Reply
Because you protected whith a cascade effect so you protect template:Babel too. That tells the server if i try to edit the template babel. thanks for unprotection--Pierpao11:38, 12 May 2010 (UTC)Reply
If you want to understand this phenomena try to edit the image of the day in Commons. It's protected because it's protected the main page.--Pierpao11:43, 12 May 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 13 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion
Am I the only one that finds this unneccesarily recondite? I think it would be pretty easy using MglovesfunBot to replace tra&sim with traditional and simplified. Mglovesfun (talk) 10:50, 14 May 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 13 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Could you sort this out please? I don't whether it's Mandarin or what but I doubt that it should even exist. >.> I mean if it is Mandarin then shouldn't it be spelled in proper pinyin? 50 Xylophone Playerstalk20:06, 14 May 2010 (UTC)Reply
The trouble is - some users say pinyin is attestable, so it should be allowed. There are not many users who would care about the quality of Chinese entries and they too, don't agree 100% on how to treat pinyin with or without tones. --Anatoli06:15, 18 May 2010 (UTC)Reply
I would argue that only toned Pinyin could possibly be attestable. Toneless pinyin just makes for a lot of duplicate definitions, like TI stated above. Razorflame02:49, 22 May 2010 (UTC)Reply
Blocking
Latest comment: 13 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
As for blocking, just use Special:Blockip. It will ask you for something to block, so enter the range in there and write something in the reason field, then click on the Block button. -- Prince Kassad08:04, 19 May 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 13 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Hi Carl, one thing I don't like about this way of saying it, is that it may imply "I turned blind", rather than simply stating - I'm blind from birth or something but I may be wrong. What do you think? --Anatoli00:39, 20 May 2010 (UTC)Reply
Apparently not. I consulted a number of native speakers when drawing up those translations. It indeed means "I'm blind". Just like 我餓了 means "I'm hungry" and not "I've turned hungry". ---> Tooironic00:41, 20 May 2010 (UTC)Reply
Range Blocks
Latest comment: 13 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
You actually can't (and don't want to) block that range. You are trying to block a /8 (114.X.X.X) but the Mediawiki software won't allow a block wider than /16. A /8 block actually blocks 2^24 (16 million) addresses. It looks like the IPs vandalizing the page you linked were all in the 114.233.X.X range, which is a /16, but better than that they are in the ranges 114.233.128.X-143.X. That can be blocked using a /20. I did a quick CU on the range and there would be no collateral damage for that range block, there is only one person editing from that range. That isn't terribly surprising since the ISP is China Telecom and they barely let people look at Wikis. The block you actually made there 114.0.0.0/24 is not blocking the person you hoped to, it is blocking 114.0.0.0-114.0.0.255. The block you really want for that range is 114.233.128.0/20. I will update your current block. - DaveRoss02:25, 29 May 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 13 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion
Hey there Tooironic. You recently reverted an IP adding hyphenated toned pinyin...may I ask why? Is it because the hyphen should not have been there? Anyways, people are talking on IRC about it, so I just thought that I'd ask. Razorflame03:00, 30 May 2010 (UTC)Reply
If you're referring to the Range Blocks (above), the person in question was adding pinyin with hyphens which is against pinyin formatting standards, not to mention confusing. Hyphens are only used in pinyin under very specific circumstances e.g. for proper noun abbreviations like Lā-Měi拉美. ---> Tooironic03:09, 30 May 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 13 years ago2 comments1 person in discussion
Hi Carl,
I have just found out that we don't have a default font setting for Chinese entries {{template|Hani}}. Japanese and Korean don't have either. It's controlled here: MediaWiki talk:Common.css. Many scripts increase the default by 25%. I have successfully increased fonts for Tamil, Sinhalese and Malayalam scripts. Not sure if different fonts should be set for simp. and trad. but it's worth increasing the default size a bit. --Anatoli05:18, 3 June 2010 (UTC)Reply
I have tried this. The size has increased but not sure if the font is right.
/* Chinese ] */.Hani{font-family:Song,Ming,ArialUnicodeMS,Code2000,sans-serif;font-size:125%;}
Latest comment: 13 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Could you provide examples for senses #3 and 4. The current gloss allows a multitude of interpretations and translations. --Hekaheka15:11, 14 June 2010 (UTC)Reply
The nouns became understandable through the verb glosses, and I added the translations already. A few nice examples would not do any harm, however. --Hekaheka15:29, 14 June 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 13 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Hi Carl, for lack of a better term, have you see the new "autoquote" function which creates a drop-down box for example sentences? I think it is not intended for non-English entries, to the extend that when applied to a non-English entry it eviscerates the "main" (i.e., foreign language) sentence behind the drop-down, leaving only a bare English translation that makes no sense out of context...one example can be found at wǒ (notice my recent change to remedy it; i think i did it as an IP before logging in just now). Just curious if this new feature is irking you as well. --达伟17:26, 19 June 2010 (UTC)Reply
Hiya. Well it was only like that because the editor didn't use the proper formatting. See 俱樂部 and 考試 for examples of standard real-life citations and example sentences respectively. ---> Tooironic01:21, 20 June 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 13 years ago8 comments3 people in discussion
Hello, I have been making Sino-Vietnamese entries and the one for menu in Vietnamese seems to come from the Chinese 食单. Could you create an entry for 食单? This term doesn't appear in some Chinese dictionaries. 71.66.97.22804:42, 21 June 2010 (UTC)Reply
To anon. For Sino-Vietnamese words you can use the optional parameter Hán tự (漢字) to show it's Chinese spelling. It makes sense to show the pinyin spelling and the traditional variant. I have modified thực đơn entry - etymology and definition to a more standard way.
Thanks, but be careful: it isn't always known when, or from which dialect Sino-Vietnamese words come. They are not all from Mandarin; some came into Vietnamese in the Song Dynasty or earlier (1000 years ago or more), others came via Cantonese migration in the last 100-200 years, and still others (such as the names of recently created provinces) may be back-formations that indeed have Chinese derivations but may never have been used during the time Vietnam used Chinese characters to record its official histories. So I don't think it's always possible to know whether a Sino-Vietnamese word came to Vietnamese from Mandarin or Cantonese (some terms of Cantonese origin being essentially Vietnamized "corruptions" of Cantonese terms rather than scholarly versions of Mandarin terms), or whether it's a term that does have Sinitic roots but has no exact equivalent in use in any Chinese dialect. 71.66.97.22806:01, 21 June 2010 (UTC)Reply
Regarding the "Hán tự" template parameter, again this is tricky because, as in the case of some recently created Vietnamese provinces (created after the period when Chinese characters were used to record Vietnamese history and official documents), Hán tự may never have actually been used to write such terms, although they can authentically be traced back to Chinese root words. 71.66.97.22806:03, 21 June 2010 (UTC)Reply
I see you've got some knowledge about the topic. Well, unfortunately, zh stands here for Mandarin but it should be Chinese. Changing the template back will is unsafe now. {{etyl|zh|vi}} should simply mean of Chinese origin (my intention) but it shows Mandarin. I leave to you to decide. You can simply write Chinese as a word but it won't add to the category (Chinese or Mandarin derivations) automatically, you have to do it yourself. As for the "Hán tự" parameter, it is safe to show what the Hanzi version of the Vietnamese word would be even if it was never written so (e.g. it's a new word) because that way you can link to related Chinese (also Japanese or Korean) words. It is optional too. --Anatoli06:10, 21 June 2010 (UTC)Reply
Good ideas. sâm bổ lượng is an example of a probable recent Vietnamese "corruption" of a Cantonese term. These can be confusing because they often don't adhere to normal Hán tự readings. In this case, nobody can explain where "sâm" comes from, as that is not a normal reading of 清. 71.66.97.22806:29, 21 June 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 13 years ago9 comments2 people in discussion
Hello, can you please help add an etymology at 洋洋? I can't figure out how what seems to be "foreign foreign" from the definition at the 洋 entry gets this meaning. Thank you, 71.66.97.22823:02, 21 June 2010 (UTC)Reply
Just wondering if you could help here. If not, I don't know who to ask, as there are very few people working on Chinese entries at the moment. Thank you, 71.66.97.22819:02, 24 June 2010 (UTC)Reply
Just wondering if you could help with this. There are very few Wiktionarians working on Chinese-language entries so it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, 71.66.97.22804:30, 30 June 2010 (UTC)Reply
I spoke to a Chinese professor about this yesterday and he may have the answer. He said that this is a term that used to be spelled with a different character, but over time 洋 was substituted for the original character. I'm going to ask him which character he things was originally used. Do you have the CD-ROMs for the Hanyu Da Cidian, and might the etymology be in there? 71.66.97.22823:51, 1 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 13 years ago10 comments3 people in discussion
Perhaps my tentative format could be a useful precedent to follow to characters w/ multiple pronunciations...just a first attempt. I only did it on the simplified character since it's merely an attempt (please see History): 储 --达伟01:44, 22 June 2010 (UTC)Reply
I think that looks OK, feel free to do that to the traditional form too. I don't really edit hanzi entries myself, but for Mandarin words we add a Variant Pronunciations category. See 蜗牛 for example. You should probably do that for this one too. ---> Tooironic03:16, 22 June 2010 (UTC)Reply
Sorry to bug you about hanzi entries if that's not your thing, but if I'm not mistaken, the 蝸 and 蜗 entries only contain the guā pronunciation, which is surprising...--达伟14:50, 22 June 2010 (UTC)Reply
Not really. As you know our hanzi entries are barely there as it is. Plus it's very rare you come across dictionaries which list variant pronunciations (one of the reasons why I started that category - it's extremely useful). ---> Tooironic15:00, 22 June 2010 (UTC)Reply
On the whole I agree that hanzi entries are deficient, but as regards pronunciation you might be pleasantly surprised--I routinely come across characters with 3 or more pronunciations listed, many of which I never even suspected existed, and indeed many of which I would venture to guess even the average native speaker doesn't know. --71.111.229.1909:33, 23 June 2010 (UTC) (me as IP)Reply
I would take those with a grain of salt. We have come across quite a few mistakes with the hanzi pronunciations in the past, i.e., sometimes they show readings that simply don't exist. ---> Tooironic09:48, 23 June 2010 (UTC)Reply
Well enough. Tnx for the heads up. Someday it would be great to make a bot that could cross-check such pronunciations against some well-reputed reliable database...but (i) I don't know what database that might be, and (ii) we'd have to find someone to program it...--达伟19:00, 23 June 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 13 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Hi. The English entry for Alejandro seems needless to me. Transliterations could be just listed as ====Descendants==== in the Spanish section, like in Ἀλέξανδρος. Alejandro is not an English name in the sense explained in Wiktionary:About given names and surnames#The language statement of a name while, for example, Carlos and Juanita are genuinely given to English-speaking persons. There is no consensus whether English entries should be made for Spanish names in order to have a translation table, but it does bother me. This is the first time it happens in a given name entry. I wish you would list transliterations as descendants in the original language. Nobody ever objects to that.
To be honest I know very little about the policy surrounding this kind of stuff as I mostly do Mandarin and pure English entries here, so I'm afraid you're barking up the wrong tree. AFAIK though the name Alejandro is occasionally given to babies in English-speaking countries - e.g. Alejandro Salazar - which IMO is quite relevant. ---> Tooironic02:10, 25 June 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 13 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
I've noticed that there is this category, which I thought that I'd ask you if it is correct: Category:Mandarin words suffixed with -guo. Based upon some previous deletions that I've seen you make, it makes me think that this is incorrect, but I'll let you decide. Anyways, just thought that I'd bring this up. Razorflame00:15, 27 June 2010 (UTC)Reply
Like most of 123abc's contributions, these will also need to be converted to hanzi entries (or toned pinyin). There are a huge number though; are you willing to help? ---> Tooironic01:49, 27 June 2010 (UTC)Reply
I was think that somehow the traditional part could have two versions but simplified only one. The templates won't allow this. What I don't like is that 週刊 used in the simplified script would not be considered standard, even if it may appear occasionally - I noticed ABC news in Chinese sometimes uses non-standard characters but the articles are often written by Chinese who grew up in Australia. --Anatoli22:34, 5 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
It is a traditional script version (Wenlin is another confirmation). I don't know if any simplified hanzi have variants, they are much better standardised. A number of dictionaries won't even find 週 but my Cantonese classmates always wrote 周一 as 週一 --Anatoli05:03, 6 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
IMHO, it's safe to assume all standard simplified hanzi have no variants. Not sure if cases like 毋無/无 are variants or completely different characters. What do you think? --Anatoli05:08, 6 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Looks good to me. For now let's just deal with 遊 and 週 as traditional variants in word-entries, and take other variants on a case by case basis. As for 毋, surely it is just a different character which happens to express the same meaning as 無? There isn't much point dealing with that possible variant in all word entries I think. ---> Tooironic05:52, 6 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 13 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Hi! I'm fixing the protection on this page. Note that you could have semi-protected, as the problem was an IP user; and it is always good to set expiration, as other users will need to edit. Specifically, Interwicket will want to update iwikis at some point, it is fine if the page has to be full-protected for a while, it is patient, but eventually should resolve itself. Cheers, Robert Ullmann10:40, 5 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
dep tsi (Middle Chinese)
Latest comment: 13 years ago6 comments2 people in discussion
It's 碟子 (diézi) (Mandarin), (pronounced "dip6 zi2" in Cantonese). I was able to find thanks to "tieh-tzu" - corrupt Wade-Giles Mandarin romanisation of diézi (standard pinyin). Modern meaning: small plate, dish. --Anatoli05:34, 6 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 13 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Hi, can you tell me if 愛死 is an idiom, as found in the lyric 实实爱死人 (or 实实爱死个人, or 实实的爱死个人)? The English translation I found doesn't have anything about a dead person, which 死 seems to indicate. 71.66.97.22811:09, 7 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
愛死 is arguable SOP. Conventional construction. 死活 is completely unrelated to 愛死 and parallel usages of the former construction. --71.111.229.1913:34, 9 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
I'm not going to answer your questions until you start using the proper formatting, like I've said a hundred times. Sorry, but it's the only way you'll learn. ---> Tooironic22:36, 7 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 13 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Carl,
I have also updated my language_resources page - I have just discovered that Word Reference dictionary provides word stress for Russian words - very important for Russian learners but stress may fluctuate in inflected words. Most of the Russian entries here have also declension and conjugation sections. --Anatoli03:49, 15 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Indeed, it probably isn't what you'd call "standard Mandarin". Still, it exists and should be added when someone gets around to it (and Usage Notes). ---> Tooironic10:36, 2 August 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 13 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
As far as I can tell, Analgin is a trademark for metamizole. Do you think that we should translate the word with the generic term, even though the Chinese word seems to have been derived from the trademark? Equinox◑17:05, 13 August 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 13 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
I made a typo and meant to say "your statement that they are NOT the same is not demonstrating it to me." My previous message will make more sense with that in mind. I have been as friendly and respectful as I can but you are sounding more and more pushy, now saying "like you did it again" and "not helping". So let me state clearly:
I don't agre with your opinion, so I am not planning to duplicate entries when alternate spelling would do just fine IMHO.
Using your own tone: If you are going to duplicate Mandarin entries, make sure you do it yourself, you don't need me for that.
About your accusation that I am "not helping": I am here to help Wiktionary by adding information when I can. I am not here to help you duplicate entries.
Timeout: I request we stop communicating for a while, as I find we are wasting time on a VERY MINOR technicality and our exchange is unpleasant.
If it is such a minor "technicality" then you won't find it difficult to simply make sure both script forms are updated with the same information - like Anatoli said, it is not an unreasonable request. Instead of trying to make out that I was being "pushy" - which I wasn't - take my comments on board and move on. Getting into a defensive position is not going to help your reputation on here at all. ---> Tooironic22:36, 18 August 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 13 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Please use the following formatting for translations with 的:
* Chinese:
*: Mandarin: {{t|cmn|假|alt=假的|sc=Hani}}, {{t|cmn|假|tr=jiǎ de|alt=假的|sc=Hani}}
Thanks. ---> Tooironic04:56, 30 August 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 13 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
If I did something that is not constructive, please revert. I removed that line because it appeared to be a duplicate of the line proceding the "archaic" definition. My reasoning was that the duplicative line could be deleted and the two definitions (one "archaic" and one "colloquial", i.e. modern) could be consolidated under a single pronunciation line. If that is erroneous please feel free to revert. Thanks--达伟21:56, 31 August 2010 (UTC)Reply
No worries. I'm reverting it now because the pronunciation is different and that should be marked, but I'm also going to add another PoS header to make it clearer. Cheers. ---> Tooironic08:55, 1 September 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 13 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Can you reply to my comment at WT:RFV#孔孔. I'm always worried about languages with few contributors that an entry can fail RFV if nobody checks. That said, that would be virtually every language here. Mglovesfun (talk) 21:09, 13 September 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 13 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Hey, from time to time, I'll make a Chinese entry but then notice that the name of the page itself is incorrect. For example, I've accidentally mixed simplified and traditional, or I've used 试 instead of 式. Is there a simple/easy way to correct it, or how should I submit these pages for deletion? Wierdw12300:51, 24 September 2010 (UTC)Reply
Put a delete tag at the top telling us that you misspelt the entry and we'll delete it for you (you'll need to recreate the entry using the correct entry title). The other option is to MOVE the contents to a new entry under a different name. ---> Tooironic14:01, 24 September 2010 (UTC)Reply
Finnish trans requests, e.g. Sapporo
Latest comment: 13 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Hi Carl,
I think Hekaheka is annoyed when she is requested to translate foreign city names into Finnish. 99% are spelled the same way as in English and there's no other linguistic info (e.g. gender). --Anatoli00:35, 8 October 2010 (UTC)Reply
Toneless pinyin syllables (e.g. san, ri, cheng, etc) are fine because they are limited in number, however toneless pinyin "words" should not be included because there is an unlimited number of possible entries. Currently we have to add entries for both simplified, traditional and pinyin scripts - we should not have to multiply our work a fourth time. ---> Tooironic23:20, 21 October 2010 (UTC)Reply
Butting in on 'toneless pinyin "words" should not be included because there is an unlimited number of possible entries': there is no vote that says that, right? --Dan Polansky11:37, 22 October 2010 (UTC)Reply
Looks fine to me too. The attestable words in toneless pinyin, if they are used in the English context, could be made English entries, like we have Putonghua, Pinyin, Hanzi, etc. For the reasons Tooironic mentioned, Mandarin entries in toneless pinyin should be discouraged, proper Mandarin entries in Hanzi should be encouraged and toned Pinyin should be synchronised with Hanzi entries as a minimum. Pinyin lovers could have the examples in both Hanzi and toned Pinyin, as in 普通话. Putonghua has similar examples but doesn't have tones. --Anatoli22:02, 24 October 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 13 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Could you please add more to this entry? My friend was trying to teach me some Mandarin and he couldn't explain why sometimes you need to use this word (ta1 hen3 ben4 "He is stupid") but sometimes not (ta1 bu4 ben4 "He is not stupid"). —Internoob (Disc•Cont) 04:58, 15 November 2010 (UTC)Reply
I don't typically work on single character words (字) but I'll answer your question. In Chinese 很 doesn't always mean "very" - in many contexts it just performs the function "is" does in English. In spoken Mandarin, whenever you use an adjective it must be used in conjunction with an adverb such as 很, 非常, 相当, 十分, etc. If you need more help and you use MSN let me know, I'd be happy to answer any more questions you have on there. ---> Tooironic12:13, 15 November 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 13 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion
Hi Tooironic, what is the best way to find out the tone of Chinese names? E.g. Cui, Zhu, Huang, He, Hu, etc. I can read pinyin but without the tones I have a hard time to pronounce names correctly. Thanks. --Panda1022:00, 16 December 2010 (UTC)Reply
You need the character - toneless pinyin doesn't tell you much, although you can try typing the pinyin and searching for it in the input box. Failing that you can search through name lists, e.g. at Chinese name. ---> Tooironic22:09, 16 December 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 13 years ago6 comments2 people in discussion
Hello, I have figured out how to use the templates but in the cases of these two new entries I am not sure about the second tone; should it be 3rd tone or no tone, or either way? I have seen it both ways in sources. Thank you, 71.66.97.22800:55, 12 January 2011 (UTC)Reply
If Tooironic doesn't do it, I'll try to find later. My quick search hasn't found a direct equivalent, there could be a descriptive term, same with the Korean. I will add the Arabic later, which is فوتونm(futuun) (also photon) or فوتون يابانيm(futuun yabaaniy). --Anatoli01:46, 21 January 2011 (UTC)Reply
He just added 床墊, but a Google Images search shows thousands of images of regular mattresses--not a single futon. Is there really no Chinese term for this common type of bed/couch? They are very common and popular in North America and one would think there would be a term referring to this specific item in Chinese. I'm sure this thing is even made in China (in fact, I believe mine is made there). 71.66.97.22808:08, 21 January 2011 (UTC)Reply
Adjectives
Latest comment: 13 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion
Latest comment: 13 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
I would like to know your preference as regards the use of "<" vs "from" in the formatting of etymologies in Wiktionary, whatever that preference is. Even explicit statement of indifference would be nice. You can state your preference in the currently running poll: WT:BP#Poll: Etymology and the use of less-than symbol. I am sending you this notification, as you took part on some of the recent votes, so chances are you could be interested in the poll. The poll benefits from having as many participants as possible, to be as representative as possible. Feel free to ignore this notification. --Dan Polansky10:51, 14 February 2011 (UTC)Reply
Vote on formatting of etymologies
Latest comment: 13 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
There is the vote Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2011-02/Deprecating less-than symbol in etymologies, which would benefit from your participation, even if only in the role of an abstainer. Right now, the results of the vote do not quite mirror the results of the poll that has preceded the vote. There is a chance that the vote will not pass. The vote, which I thought would be a mere formality, has turned out to be a real issue. You have taken part on the poll that preceded the vote, which is why I have sent you this notification. --Dan Polansky08:28, 10 March 2011 (UTC)Reply
Derv
Latest comment: 13 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Latest comment: 12 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion
Not really Wiktionary related, more like curiosity. I met someone last night who had their pet's name Bruno tattoo on their forearm in Chinese. Out of interest, how would someone do this? Phonetically? So Bru-no? Mglovesfun (talk) 12:14, 15 April 2011 (UTC)Reply
Western names in Chinese are usually transliterated. The common transliteration for "Bruno" is "布鲁诺" Bùlǔnuò. Check out for some tattoo horror stories. ---> Tooironic12:20, 15 April 2011 (UTC)Reply
"Transliteration" is not the correct word. Transliteration is transcribing a text using one-to-one or near one-to-one correspondence between two scripts. There is no one-to-one or near one-to-one correspondence between Hanzi and the Latin alphabet. "Transcription" should be used instead (here and in all entries you created with "transliteration of" written where "transcription" should be used ). 60.240.101.24603:16, 13 June 2011 (UTC)Reply
If you mean that the list numbers on the left are labeled "0" as opposed to "1/2/3...", then the solution is to stop using a horribly buggy browser like IE9. --Yair rand01:06, 7 June 2011 (UTC)Reply
Today's my birthday (August 13, I mean), and the 20,000 Nouns Appeal didn't have an update. However, I went to the River Raisin Jazz Festival in its tenth anniversary, and I'm 18 years of age now. --Lo Ximiendo01:56, 14 August 2011 (UTC)Reply
Mandarin References
Latest comment: 12 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion
Hi, Tooironic. I updated the entry 决明子 and I wish to make its traditional script counterpart 決明子, but do I have to copy the references and add them to the traditional script entry? Thanks. --Lo Ximiendo19:58, 11 June 2011 (UTC)Reply
I dunno about that. At any rate a range block should apply to users who repeatedly create unattestable entries. I've asked different admins to help me but no one has been successful in blocking him fully yet. ---> Tooironic02:33, 27 June 2011 (UTC)Reply
And no one will. Clearly he's capable of circumventing any range block. What we need to do is make the best use of tools we have. Which is why I'm asking you — when I'm patrolling new entries, what should I do about these? I'm offering to help, here. Just tell me what needs to be done. —RuakhTALK11:04, 27 June 2011 (UTC)Reply
I think he's only editing under User:Engirst at the moment. Unless there's a way to automatically delete every pinyin entry that gets created, I don't see how we can protect against him. ---> Tooironic12:21, 27 June 2011 (UTC)Reply
I can certainly delete (almost) every pinyin entry that gets created, if that's what should be done. What should the edit summary be? —RuakhTALK12:44, 27 June 2011 (UTC)Reply
As has been explained to you time and time again, every entry on Wiktionary should be attestable; tiāndì is not. There are 41 hits on Google Books, each one of them in English texts. ---> Tooironic13:40, 27 June 2011 (UTC)Reply
As above for your reference: "Wordproject is an open, royalty free web page, online and on CD, which aims to make the Word of God - the Bible - available to as many people as possible, through a means that is simple, up-to-date and cheap to reproduce and use." CD is durably archived. Engirst17:53, 27 June 2011 (UTC)Reply
It is indeed so. The quotation has to be using the term in the language and sense that the entry says it is; otherwise, the quotation isn't exactly supporting the entry, now is it? —RuakhTALK02:27, 28 June 2011 (UTC)Reply
If you can delete almost every pinyin entry that gets created, that would be great and maybe User:123abc would finally get the idea. You would be justified seeing as you are getting rid of a mass amount of material that is completely unattestable. If you have time, ideally, the pinyin entries should be searched for on Google Books to see if they can possibly be attested. But in my experience, most can't; even simple words like nǐhǎo are hard to attest in running Mandarin text. ---> Tooironic13:03, 27 June 2011 (UTC)Reply
That's a bit too personal . . . I've gone with "Unattested Pinyin". So far I've deleted between twenty and twenty-five entries. I'll catch up over time. Notes:
I can only do entries created after May 30th or so, since the patrolled edits feature only covers the last thirty days.
I'm only deleting entries with page-names that have zero or one b.g.c. hits. If the page-name has two or more b.g.c. hits, I've left it, even if the hits don't look like uses, or if they're actually in a different language.
I support the total ban of Engirst and deletion of all entries he/she creates, right or wrong. We have spent too much time trying to reason him. --Anatoli03:55, 28 June 2011 (UTC)Reply
We should follow rules.
'“Attested” means verified through
Clearly widespread use,
Usage in a well-known work, or
Usage in permanently recorded media, conveying meaning, in at least three independent instances spanning at least a year.'
You're just forgetting one very important thing - it has to be in a Mandarin work, not an English one, and it has to be USED not just MENTIONED! ---> Tooironic22:23, 28 June 2011 (UTC)Reply
I believe the word "的" to be spelled "de" or "di" in pinyin, not "d." I don't believe pinyin has consonants without final vowels, as Zhou Youguang formulated this system. 71.66.97.22823:58, 29 June 2011 (UTC)Reply
Firstly, the example sentence is from the original work (Dàshuǐ Guòhòu (After the Flood)). Secondly, the usage of "d" is written in the national standard of the People's Republic of China.
Latest comment: 12 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Hi, is this a real Chinese word? An anonymous IP address (which was probably from China, I guess) added it with no content. If it is real, is it Mandarin or something else? What part of speech is it? --Lo Ximiendo02:06, 13 July 2011 (UTC)Reply
All proposals to accommodate 123abc's (and all his other aka's) edits will not work because he is a vandal by nature. He is back to working on toneless pinyin. He creates new headers and categories. He just doesn't care about the rest of editors. His whole activity seems like a revenge for blocking him. Rather than trying to please him, we should find a way to permanently block him. Unfortunately, I don't know what to do with the myriad anons he is creating. We should not sympathise with a person creating frustration and additional work. --Anatoli22:35, 21 July 2011 (UTC)Reply
The new version says of pinyin entries, “their definition lines simply link to characters with that reading”, and gives ] (which does not have brief definitions) as a model entry. Should this be made more explicit? Perhaps this sentence:
Instead, they have a “Romanization” L3 heading, and their definition lines simply link to characters with that reading.
should be changed to this:
Instead, they have a “Romanization” L3 heading, and their definition lines, rather than giving English glosses, simply use {{pinyin reading of}} to link to characters with that reading.
So should I go ahead and set up a vote now, or are you still thinking about this? (Please take your time, if you need it. I just want to make sure you're not expecting me to be doing something right now. :-P ) —RuakhTALK14:10, 25 July 2011 (UTC)Reply
Yes, sorry, I've been distracted with work lately. I support adding brief definitions next to the character readings, I just hope that users like 123Abc don't take that as meaning they can add lots of extra information and, before you know it, it's just as it was before, with pinyin and hanzi entries being totally out of sync. ---> Tooironic07:30, 26 July 2011 (UTC)Reply
Then we can probably include an additional parameter to the {{pinyin reading of}} template to give a brief def. That should implicitly limit the amount of info one can put in it. No redundant extra headings or issues with defs being out of sync. Jamesjiao → T ◊ C22:16, 7 August 2011 (UTC)Reply
Sorry, I should have explained it better. That template is not used that way. Please follow the directions I gave you on your talk page. ---> Tooironic07:58, 26 July 2011 (UTC)Reply
Gimme a hand...
Latest comment: 12 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion
...rollin back this bullshit. I've been at it for a while, but I need a break. I extended the block from last night til tomorrow morning. I'm not disinclined from making it permanent, based on this. — — 14:33, 27 July 2011 (UTC)Reply
Also, his refusal to use {{cmn-noun}} irks the fucking piss out of me, so now I'm definitely with you on getting rid of this kreeaaature. I think I disagree with you on pinyin, but I haven't really paid enough attention to be sure. But as far as engrist's future here is concerned, I think we're in total agreement. — — 14:37, 27 July 2011 (UTC)Reply
I will try to roll these back indidivually Dick. I've been holding back on the destruction he's been wreaking on Mandarin entries. Now he's doing the same on English entries. Unacceptable. Jamesjiao → T ◊ C04:09, 29 July 2011 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 12 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Can I list these as synonyms for each other, or is there a subtle distinction that should be made through nifty-ass =Usage notes=? — — 03:09, 12 August 2011 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 12 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Hi, sorry to bother you but I was wondering if I could ask your help with writing an article, or rather converting it into Mandarin--a suspicious IP user recently created 腹語術, which as far as I can tell is not Japanese as they claim it is. They created 腹話術 at the same time with almost identical content, seemly assuming that they were the same word, along with 口技, claiming they all meant ventriloquism in Japanese, but actually only one does, namely 腹話術. The other two seem to be Mandarin, however, so rather than deleting 腹語術 I think the Japanese part should be erased and replaced with a Mandarin section. 口技 was already there. Since I've seen you add a lot of Mandarin articles I was wondering if you could add it to your queue. Thanks! Haplology15:46, 19 August 2011 (UTC)Reply
Thanks. That's a challenging list of words! I don't think I could do all of them for Japanese. Maybe hang out is ごろごろする, but I don't know the others. Haplology11:58, 20 August 2011 (UTC)Reply
cmn-noun
Latest comment: 12 years ago5 comments3 people in discussion
Latest comment: 12 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Hi Carl,
I added 烟(yīn) back to the translation of "cigarette". It's used on its own as well, I've seen it many times. I added a short example in the comments. --Anatoli23:34, 28 September 2011 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 12 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Hi,
Thanks for your input. I have set up the vote. The wording is not final before the vote starts. Please have a look and make comments in the talk page if you have any. --Anatoli00:42, 3 October 2011 (UTC)Reply
Can I extent this invitation to any editors who wish to join in, such as A-Cai, Atitarev and Jamesjiao (I'm too lazy to copy this across). Mglovesfun (talk) 14:34, 7 October 2011 (UTC)Reply
Just blocked an ip who was making suspiciously abc entries which should be looked at. There weren't many, but still. — — 21:32, 7 October 2011 (UTC)Reply
soft redirects for mixed-script entries
Latest comment: 12 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion
Hi Tooironic! You've argued in favour of deleting mixed-script entries because they're not used or understood by monolingual Chinese speakers. Amidst lots of discussion, Dan or Lmaltier (or possibly someone else first) suggested an alternative, "soft redirects" — bare-bones entries like the one I made here that would qualify mixed-script forms as "Nonstandard, mixed-script rendition of 普朗克常数 (Pǔlǎngkè chángshù)." (or of whatever term), explain in usage notes that the mixed-script forms are proscribed (regarded as incorrect, not recognised by other Chinese dictionaries) and unlikely to be understood by monolingual speakers of Chinese, and point to the all-Hanzi entries as the standard forms. I understand that you, James, Anatoli and native speaker 60.240.101.246 don't want people to think mixed-script terms are standard in Chinese, but Dan, Lmaltier and Prosfilaes don't want to exclude attestable terms. (Which makes sense — as I said in my first comment in the RFD debate over Thames河, ‘If it "will not be understood by any monolingual Chinese speaker", that speaker might want to look it up in a dictionary’!) Would soft redirects like that be acceptable to you as a compromise, rather than banning the terms? That way, we cover the terms, but we make clear that they aren't standard (indeed, aren't intelligible), so no one is mislead. What do you think? - -sche(discuss)04:28, 9 October 2011 (UTC)Reply
PS, bear in mind, as I note on the page I linked to, that we would only have soft redirects for attestable mixed-script terms. Any mixed-script terms Engirst couldn't cite we would delete as RFV-failed, and any whole English words (like "国外大学了解你专业上的qualifications,几乎完全是靠审查各种申请文件来实现的。") we would delete from Chinese sections per the not unanimous but nevertheless overwhelming consensus of the RFD and BP discussions. - -sche(discuss)04:52, 9 October 2011 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 12 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Hi, did you join in 2009 or earlier? I'm concerned that your About Me section could have an out-of-date description, especially of the number of years. --Lo Ximiendo22:55, 3 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
Honestly... I have no idea. The whole thing is a bloody mess. I have no way of resolving this issue since I am totally lost when it comes to these kind of technical things. I was hoping one of the other admins would be able to fix it, but so far, nothing has transpired. Though the old categories of zh-cn and zh-tw weren't PC, they got the job done just fine. Who do you think can help us with this? ---> Tooironic09:17, 28 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
An IP user complained about this a lot. Some categories were quite big. I think Mglovesfun's bots have done it, so he may be the one who can also fix this. --Anatoli(обсудить)10:19, 28 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
Bot
Latest comment: 12 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Hello. Currently it is impossible - my bot only reads what is given in the audio file and there is only simplified script: File:Zh-shuofú.ogg. You can ask some other bot owner to copy audio files from simplified entries to their traditional counterparts by navigating through English Wiktionary - currently I don't have time to do this. --Derbethtalk11:22, 4 January 2012 (UTC)Reply
Where are you?
Latest comment: 12 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Latest comment: 12 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Hello Tooironic. Regarding the article 'social hiring network' - I have added a couple of citations where this concept is mentioned and refers to the definition given.
Kind Regards,
BR
Latest comment: 12 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
This is up-to-date and to the best of my knowledge the only Mandarin pinyin which needs reformatting (excluding prefixes, suffixes and morphemes, I will finish them before the end of tomorrow). I would really appreciate your help with this, including removing done items from the list; if you have the patience to do it. Obviously formatting the entries is more important than removing them from the list. Cheers, Mglovesfun (talk) 10:41, 8 February 2012 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 12 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Hiya, Carl,
How're you going?
User:Matthias Buchmeier has kindly generated a database dump of translations into Mandarin (and other languages) from English, the other way around seems to be complicated because of some unstandard headings. You might want to take a look at it sometimes. I find it very useful in terms of seeing, which translations need to be fixed. Anyway, it's perhaps the best Mandarin index we have so far. Would be good to generate an index of Mandarin entries at some stage and keep the English-Mandarin updated. I'm sure we can ask him again but need to address the formatting issues that might exist and keep to the standards in entries and translations. --Anatoli(обсудить)23:43, 26 February 2012 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 11 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
I removed the collective noun for baboons. It came up in en:wp as having no reliable source. The baboon article there says it was only a joke.--Canoe1967 (talk) 23:57, 25 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 11 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion
Hiya,
How are you? I was wondering if you could change the format. It looks a bit weird and confusing. Mglovesfun recently removed pinyin in some examples, as it may have looked as pinyin is a separate word, not transliteration of the synonym. Rather than using this format: ] ] (producing liánzi簾子) perhaps you could start using this one: {{l|cmn|簾子|tr=liánzi}} (producing 簾子/帘子(liánzi)) with pinyin unwikified? --Anatoli(обсудить)00:37, 16 July 2012 (UTC)Reply
Well, the reason I put the pinyin first is to make it easier to alphabetise the list. This is even more important when you large lists of synonyms, see also's, etc. If you put the pinyin after the character you can't do this. :| ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:47, 16 July 2012 (UTC)Reply
I did realize they were the same word, it just seemed counterintuitive to put the pinyin first in a non-pinyin entry. Still seems counterintuitive as when you click on the pinyin, it just tells you to see the hanzi form anyway, so it more or less adds an extra step with not much benefit involved. Mglovesfun (talk) 16:03, 16 July 2012 (UTC)Reply
New template for requested entries
Latest comment: 11 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
I have prepared {{REEHelp}} for used at WT:REE. (It may need a better name.)
This is intended to speed look-up of relevant facts about candidate terms. {{R:OneLook}} and {{googles}} can by used alone, of course. We could either put them in by default or just when actually working to respond to the requests. There are probably enhancements to add and kinks to worked out., such as making following text look acceptable. (For now, following next needs "*:".)DCDuringTALK12:57, 28 July 2012 (UTC)Reply
Zee is typical for Americans, even neighbouring Canadians say zed, as far as I know but zee is occasionally used in all countries due to the media coming from the US, popular games, songs, computer programs, textbooks published in the US, also depends on policies of school. I heard recently New Zealand stopped trying to stop Americanisation of the spelling. --Anatoli(обсудить)00:02, 31 July 2012 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 11 years ago7 comments3 people in discussion
Hi. I'm starting to learn Mandarin, but I don't know many characters yet (maybe 100 or so?) and I want to improve by reading a text and looking up the characters that I'm unfamiliar with as I go along. So, can you recommend a text that is relatively basic in terms of grammar and vocabulary, easily available online, and at least somewhat interesting? Thanks --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds09:56, 17 August 2012 (UTC)Reply
Hate to burst your bubble, but Chinese is not like Japanese and has very little in the way of what you described. Most Chinese texts require at least an intermediate level before they can be read with any kind of ease. That includes material aimed to children. I recommend you enrol in a course to improve your Chinese before you move on to that kind of stuff. Or you can try purchasing a decent text book and getting a tutor to help you. Sorry for the belated reply. ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:19, 27 August 2012 (UTC)Reply
Wow, I thought every major language had w:Dick and Jane or its equivalent. The problem is that I'm only currently aiming for an understanding around cmn-1 or cmn-2, not real literacy. I do have access to Chinese textbooks, so I might be able to borrow one for a while (they're called Integrated Chinese - do you know that series?). Thanks anyway --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds02:28, 27 August 2012 (UTC)Reply
Indeed, many major languages do not. Cultures which have been historically resistant to foreigners have a dearth of interactive and engaging material for learners. This is the case for Chinese, and may well be the case for similar languages like Hindi and Russian. Luckily though with the advent of the Internet resources have improved dramatically. Have a look on YouTube you may find something interesting there. I'm familiar with Integrated Chinese but have no idea about its quality. I haven't used beginner's textbooks for many years. I remember we used to have an old one back in high school in which everyone used to call each other 同志, was quite fun. Chinese is an incredibly challenging language to learn, but it can also be immensely fun and rewarding, not to mention very practical given the sheer number of speakers and rise of China in the modern world. Good luck! ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:37, 27 August 2012 (UTC)Reply
I possess Integrated Chinese but New Practical Chinese Reader (very similar in approach, structure, etc.) is much better. This was voted on www.chinese-forums.com. The latter is used in Universities more often. I have stopped enjoying it (that much) after volume 4 but at this level you can use any other textbook. --Anatoli(обсудить/вклад)02:49, 27 August 2012 (UTC)Reply
Self-study is possible, of course. Graded Chinese readers is a good start after finishing some decent textbooks. "New Practical Chinese Reader" - (3 volumes, at least, with audio). From Graded readers, I recommend "Chinese Breeze" and "Graded Chinese Readers". They come with pinyin and audio making it easier for complete beginners. You need to have some vocabulary and grammar. 100 characters is too few. You need about 800-1000 to start reading Graded Readers. --Anatoli(обсудить/вклад)02:34, 27 August 2012 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 11 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Hi Carl,
How are you? I wonder where you found the etymology for 木乃伊. Is it really a transliteration? I don't know myself, just asking. The Japanese traditional spelling of the word is the same but I don't understand its etymology either. --Anatoli(обсудить/вклад)00:51, 27 August 2012 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 11 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Hiya,
It seems a bit illogical but 政治避难者 or 避难者 is also used to mean asylum seeker, although it also fits a "political refugee" (with granted asylum). 政治 is added to 避难者 to separate them from people looking for any refuge (e.g. from natural disaster). --Anatoli(обсудить/вклад)06:43, 29 August 2012 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 11 years ago5 comments2 people in discussion
Hi,
I have moved from using "zh" to "cmn" in Mandarin translation, whcih matches the language code in the entries. The old issue with missing links to zh:wiki is resolved (You may need to have a hard refresh to clear the cache in the browser to see the effect). --Anatoli(обсудить/вклад)02:30, 3 September 2012 (UTC)Reply
"cmn", if you don't mind :) Please test if it works for you first. As I said above you need to do something. I noticed cmn uses Hans, not Hani, will have to change it. --Anatoli(обсудить/вклад)04:57, 3 September 2012 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 11 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Hi Tooironic, I've read your "How to Add a Chinese Translation" and realized I will never be an expert for Mandarin ;) Can you do me a favor and take a look at 康利? I have "translated" 康利 from Mike Conley, Jr. (小迈克·康利), the NBA player. 康利 also stands for Canly (a commune in northern France), Conly (Shanghai Conly Industrial CO.,LTD.), and Conli (Roy Conli, a film producer). --Unified login system (talk) 17:44, 21 October 2012 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 11 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Hi,
User:Ruakh has created a script for a quick entry creation. It's only for a few languages at the moment. I wonder if you interested in exploring this option for Mandarin. Unfortunately, it won't be able to determine the stroke count value, add pinyin with number and tell if it's both simp. and trad. or only one of them. Parts of speech, translation into English, transliteration (toned pinyin) could be take from the English entry:
==Mandarin==
<!-- USE THIS IF TRADITIONAL AND SIMPLIFIED ARE THE SAME {{zh-hanzi|]}} -->
<!-- USE THIS IF TRADITIONAL AND SIMPLIFIED ARE THE DIFFERENT {{Hani-forms|]|]}} -->
===Noun===
<!-- SIMPLIFIED AND TRADITIONAL
{{cmn-noun|ts|pin=zuòbān|pint=PLEASE ADD PINYIN WITH NUMBERS|rs=PLEASE ADD RADICAL SORT VALUE}}
<!-- SIMPLIFIED
{{Hani-forms|]|]}} -->{{cmn-noun|s|sim=PLEASE ADD SIMPLIFIED CHINESE|tra=PLEASE ADD TRADITIONAL CHINESE|pin=zuòtán|pint=PLEASE ADD PINYIN WITH NUMBERS|rs=PLEASE ADD RADICAL SORT VALUE}}
-->
<!-- TRADITIONAL
{{Hani-forms|]|]}} -->{{cmn-noun|t|sim=PLEASE ADD SIMPLIFIED CHINESE|tra=PLEASE ADD TRADITIONAL CHINESE|pin=zuòtán|pint=PLEASE ADD PINYIN WITH NUMBERS|rs=PLEASE ADD RADICAL SORT VALUE}}
-->
# definition (from the translation from English)
Sorry if the above was confusing. I meant - do you want a tool that automatically generates a Chinese entry from a translation into Mandarin? If yes, do you think there could be a generic template for it? --Anatoli(обсудить/вклад)04:37, 14 January 2013 (UTC)Reply
Sure it sounds good, but I'm hopeless at formatting and all that stuff. I still do everything by hand, including creating new entries. Perhaps someone with more IT chops could give you more input? ---> Tooironic (talk) 09:59, 18 January 2013 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 11 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
I just blocked this IP for replacing the L2 headers for 斗 into "Chinese". I had checked their talk page, and Mglovesfun had warned them against doing this a year ago. I'm really not sure if I blocked them for too long, or not long enough, so I thought I'd get a second opinion from someone who deals with the language(s) in question. I also just reverted a deletion of most of the Mandarin section of the same entry by another user shortly afterward. This may have been justified, depending on the quality of the edits added by an IP a day or two ago, so I'd like your opinion on that as well. Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 04:17, 18 January 2013 (UTC)Reply
At least I thought I blocked them. I'm not at my home computer, and I seem to be having problems with actions disappearing or applying to the wrong target. Maybe I'm just tired. At any rate, I blocked them for sure, this time. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:42, 18 January 2013 (UTC)Reply
I support your blocking. If he has problems with the way Mandarin entries are formatted on Wiktionary he should discuss it with the community and open a vote first before any major overhauls are done. ---> Tooironic (talk) 09:57, 18 January 2013 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 11 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
BD2412 has made a mess of this, by creating it as Mandarin then changing the header to Cantonese without changing anything else. I changed it back to Mandarin, but am starting to think maybe I was wrong to do so, can you help at all? Mglovesfun (talk) 11:37, 19 January 2013 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 11 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Hiya, Carl,
Long time no see.
Do you mind if we introduce any of "See" + (japanese kana) (as in Japanese romaji entries) or "Romanization of" + word in Gothic script (Gothic), so that we have similar format? E.g. jīròu would have "# See肌肉" instead of nothing (just # 肌肉)?
Also, the vote specifically disallowed definitions, only links to hanzi. This point has created a stir in discussions about Japanese romaji. Any new pinyin entries I make don't have English translations. What's your opinion on this? I can give you links to the new development. Your comment on "The 20,000 Nouns Appeal" (including Romanised forms, cheaters!) may not be valid soon! :) --Anatoli(обсудить/вклад)06:01, 3 April 2013 (UTC)Reply
I don't have much of an opinion on this. But presumably putting simple definitions in pinyin entries (next to the soft redirect) is useful for users. ---> Tooironic (talk) 11:36, 5 April 2013 (UTC)Reply
I've changed my opinion on this. Without defs people will always look for the main entry, not relying on the pinyin at all once they found the entry in hanzi. Pinyin entries can be generated by bots, done once and forgotten. It's still an issue with many homophones but commercial dictionaries use pinyin only to provide reference to the main entry, without any definitions. This vote Wiktionary:Votes/2011-07/Pinyin entries was based on yánlì, which has no definitions, only links.
Also, the fact that that rule (no definition) wasn't strictly followed, was used big time against our work on Japanese romaji. It is quite different, though. See tsuku -> つく and many links to Japanese kanji (disambiguation happens). So, Japanese has three levels, not two. If you look at tsuku in edit mode, there is no visible definition line. # is generated by the template. --Anatoli(обсудить/вклад)12:22, 5 April 2013 (UTC)Reply
OK no worries I've left a comment there. I support getting rid of the rs field requirement. It would save me so much time to not have to worry about it for every new entry. But I do think trad and simp entries should be maintain separately for the simple fact that there is not always 100% overlap between them. ---> Tooironic (talk) 09:54, 8 April 2013 (UTC)Reply
I have modified your 屌絲 and created 屌丝. With my suggested way of categorising - # {{slang|vulgar|lang=cmn|skey=chai1kai1}}. Now both entries appear in Category:Mandarin slang and Category:Mandarin vulgarities sorted by chai1kai1 (under letter "C").
I didn't raise the IPA issue, sorry, you have to check it with Wyang. I'm defintiely interested in accelerated entry creation for Mandarin but that wasn't what the topic was about. I'm sure Wyang can fix that. IPA is my weak point, since I don't usually add IPA in any language (I dislike IPA for no particular reason). So, back to my topic, dropping "traditional"/"simplified" from category names (not SoP categories - nouns, verbs, etc. but only topical categories - plants, animals, derivations, etc.) is fine by you? Sorting by pinyin, not rs is also OK? --Anatoli(обсудить/вклад)00:39, 9 April 2013 (UTC)Reply
Thank you. I'm going to start a new page listing erhuayin as I'd like to catalogue them better on Wiktionary. I can use my latest blog entries as references. :) ---> Tooironic (talk) 09:57, 19 April 2013 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 11 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Hiya,
Do you mind, as discussed, changing the sort order (skey) to be based on number pinyin for HSK and other cats, rather than rs value? E.g. "chuan4men2r", not "丨06串門兒" for 串門兒 --Anatoli(обсудить/вклад)05:45, 24 April 2013 (UTC)Reply
Old transwiki
Latest comment: 11 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Latest comment: 10 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion
Hi,
I've created this category for quite a few languages (translations from English into foreign languages) but then I changed the code in {{t}} not to add translations into Mandarin any more, which lack the transliteration. The problem is as follows: I can easily populate this category with translations into Mandarin where there is no tr but our practice is to transliterate only the simplified version, if the spelling is different, so all traditional will be added to this category as well. It could be helpful if someone watched this category and added transliteration where it's required and ignore where it's not needed. Would you like me to add Mandarin to the template that loads entries to this category? Otherwise, I'll just drop it. The problem is similar to Korean, where hanja translations don't get transliteration using tr.
If I make a change to {{t}}, in diagnosis, 诊断(zhěnduàn) is fine, it has tr but 診斷/诊断(zhěnduàn) will add diagnosis to Category:Mandarin_translations_lacking_transliteration, since it has no tr. In this particular case, no action is required and can be ignored but if the translations don't have tr, then someone would need to add transliteration.
Will you add Category:Mandarin_translations_lacking_transliteration to your regular checking then? Note that they are English entries and will contain a bunch of false positives - translations into traditional Chinese where tr= is not expected. This may be confusing to other users, I have doubts myself now! There may be no efficient method of checking that all Chinese translations are transliterated. --Anatoli(обсудить/вклад)03:07, 17 May 2013 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 10 years ago7 comments4 people in discussion
I apologise in advance if this question seems obvious, but I've noticed in several of your articles you have used superscript numbers in the IPA pronunciations. Do these mark tone? Porokello (talk) 01:49, 28 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
The answer is quite simply that superscript 1 2 3 4 5 correspond to ˩ ˨ ˧ ˦ ˥ respectively. It is not exactly standard IPA, but it's a system widely used in linguistic literature. It is much more accurate than the traditional numbered tones 1 to 4 that you may be used to in Mandarin, because (for example) the traditional 3rd tone is in reality a series of different tones (going down, coming back up) and even 'pure' tones like the traditional 1st tone don't show for how long the tone is held. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds03:41, 28 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for clarifying, Metaknowledge. I got the idea when I read Wyang's explanation first but I find toned pinyin sufficient after familiarising with the Mandarin phonology and reading rules. The tool can't handle w:Erhua at the moment, otherwise, it's very good. --Anatoli(обсудить/вклад)04:01, 28 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
closing RFDO
Latest comment: 10 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
That's right. I wouldn't worry about signs, if you add it with a translation adder, "+" will be added automatically if zh:wikt entry exists (e.g. "無處不在") or will be added later by a bot. In this case, the Chinese entry exists, so it should be {{t+}}. BTW, the SoP translations also use {{t}}, like this{{t|cmn|sumofparts}}. --Anatoli(обсудить/вклад)01:26, 11 November 2013 (UTC)Reply
With pleasure. Do you mean SoP translations? One or all of your translations at ] could be done this way: 少年拘留所(shàonián jūliúsuǒ). You can add translations via the tool first and then add ] manually. --Anatoli(обсудить/вклад)02:18, 11 November 2013 (UTC)Reply
Hiya, Carl. There is no need to add translations manually. Why are you not using the translation adder - User:Conrad.Irwin/editor.js? It's easy to use and it automatically adds {{t+}} (with a "+") if a Chinese entry exists. For "alt=", you just need to type the form into "Raw page name:". Tell me if you need help with this. --Anatoli(обсудить/вклад)06:23, 18 November 2013 (UTC)Reply
You can try User_talk:Conrad.Irwin/editor.js#Editing_translations. If you open ], do you see a form with "Add translation", "Preview translation" button, etc.? The first box is for the language code, e.g. "cmn", then your translation, "Raw page name:" is for the display form when different from lemma. First, you need to make sure that you see the form (interface). It's quite easy to use. --Anatoli(обсудить/вклад)21:47, 18 November 2013 (UTC)Reply
Ah, I think I've figured how out to use it now. Check out my changes to impetigo, did I use the tool correctly? I "added" pinyin only to the simplified terms, I guess that's how it's supposed to be done. ---> Tooironic (talk) 08:51, 20 November 2013 (UTC)Reply
To underpay an employee = 苛扣員工工資. To overpay an employee = 給員工的工資過高. But I have no idea how to work those into the translations themselves as the structure is different in Chinese. ---> Tooironic (talk) 05:48, 17 December 2013 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 10 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion
Hiya,
I have added acceleration to your User:Tooironic/common.js but not sure if your skin in preferences is "Common". Could you check Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-rendering? Also, do you see any Pinyin in green on Mandarin entries? If not, then your skin must be different, please let me know what is selected and what file you get in preview (in my preferences: "Vector (default | Preview | Custom CSS | Custom JavaScript)"). --Anatoli(обсудить/вклад)04:46, 7 January 2014 (UTC)Reply
"common" is what it says, it's not specific to any skin. Scripts should normally be put there, not in any of the skin-specific files, unless they're actually related to the skin. —CodeCat04:08, 8 January 2014 (UTC)Reply
Oh I see. Thanks for the tip. I'm hopeless with all these coding things. By the way, there was a problem with the code recognising certain characters (perhaps one in ten), do you know if this was fixed? ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:37, 16 January 2014 (UTC)Reply
Not just conversion issues but the script being unable to process characters, especially lesser known or uncommonly used ones. No examples off the top of my head but I'll let you know if I run into any more issues with this new script. ---> Tooironic (talk) 05:15, 16 January 2014 (UTC)Reply
蝲 was not in the character-Pinyin list, which included 9894 characters occurring most frequently in the Standard Modern Chinese corpus. I have added 蝲 to that list. I thought a list of this length was probably adequate, since a list of greater length would include many rarely used (and often polyphonic) characters, which probably would not be very actively compound-forming.
Simplified 布 is a conflation of traditional 布 ("cloth, fabric") and 佈/布 ("to spread, to arrange"). In compounds the latter sense is more common. Traditionally in Traditional Chinese the sense "to spread" is almost always written with 佈 (hence simplified 布 corresponds to 佈 by default), although it seems some dictionaries are disfavouring that usage. I am not sure what is the best thing to do (probably keeping the status quo for now). Wyang (talk) 02:31, 23 January 2014 (UTC)Reply
I don't find conversion problems a big issue. One has to watch carefully and not rely on the tool conversion 100%, as there is no 100% correspondence. BTW, Carl, please comment on "Automatic Bopomofo on Mandarin entries" below, please don't ignore me. :) --Anatoli(обсудить/вклад)01:27, 28 January 2014 (UTC)Reply
Out of laziness TBH. I can't be bothered adding proper context tags. I'm happy as long as the user understands them. But if someone wants to standardise then be my guest. (I'm really not the best at all that coding stuff, though I contribute a lot to this project.) ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:25, 20 January 2014 (UTC)Reply
I'd still appreciate it if you used context instead of i. Bots should also understand entries, and they don't expect "i" to be used where there should be "context", which will lead to errors in the future. It will also confuse editors, like if we want to change the appearance of "i" and it inadvertently changes the formatting of those entries too. Templates should only be used for what they're intended, to avoid surprises and breakage. —CodeCat01:28, 20 January 2014 (UTC)Reply
But then I have to start dealing with sorting and categories... it's a whole lot of bother for Mandarin editors, and few are willing to reform the system. If it's such a big deal I'll just put it in brackets instead. ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:42, 20 January 2014 (UTC)Reply
By the way, as discussed and agreed previously, contexts will only need "...|sortkey=yi1qi3 } }" and categories will only need " ]" (numbered pinyin), as in "一起". No need for "rs=" values like "一00" or suffixes like "in simplified script"/"in traditional script". Somebody might eventually move them as I requested here a while ago. It's still a bother but less of a problem than before, when traditional and simplified had to be sorted/categorised differently. --Anatoli(обсудить/вклад)01:50, 20 January 2014 (UTC)Reply
But what you're doing now is a bother all the same, and putting it in brackets wouldn't be an improvement either. It kind of misses the point. It's not about how the page appears, but about the (expected) underlying meaning of the code. By using "i" or raw brackets, it effectively "hides" part of our content from the system we use to manage it, which reduces its effectiveness. Categories are only added by some labels, not by all of them, so things like "of a ..." should be fine without sorting. And we may decide to implement automatic sorting for Chinese in the future, anyway. —CodeCat01:52, 20 January 2014 (UTC)Reply
Re: ... and we may decide to implement automatic sorting for Chinese in the future. Yes, please! For Japanese and Korean hanja as well. Adding sortkey in a different script (different from the entry) is always difficult, error-prone and time-consuming. --Anatoli(обсудить/вклад)02:02, 20 January 2014 (UTC)Reply
Please take a look at 白血球 (leukocyte), which uses specific sorting for each CJKV language (including Vietnamese, which I failed to mention). sortkey for CJKV languages at 白血球 ja - はっけっきゅう (Katakana entries also need to be converted to Hiragana) , ko - 백혈구, cmn - bai2xue4qiu2, vi - bạch huyết cầu --Anatoli(обсудить/вклад)02:07, 20 January 2014 (UTC)Reply
I have replaced {{i}} with {{cx}} (short for context) as follows: {{cx|of a political party|lang=cmn|sortkey=zong3cai2}}. "sortkey=zong3cai2" is really unnecessary, as there are no related categories. Ideally, we won't need to add "sortkey" in any case. --Anatoli(обсудить/вклад)02:17, 20 January 2014 (UTC)Reply
Creating multi-component words
Latest comment: 10 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Hi, with Template:cmn-new there is a parameter for multi-component words: |type=... , eg. |type=21 for 畜牧业. You can also specify meanings of individual components, eg.
OK, thanks. They are good examples. "no-fly zone" is an example in English, where no-fly can't be used as a separate noun. I've answered re: 第二手. Did you see it? --Anatoli(обсудить/вклад)01:45, 29 January 2014 (UTC)Reply
Cool, thanks. By the way is there a way to remove the white space between the "Pronunciation" header and "Mandarin (Standard Chinese, Beijing)? And centre the "Mandarin (Standard Chinese, Beijing)" header? It looks a bit off. ---> Tooironic (talk) 12:12, 25 February 2014 (UTC)Reply
I sort of intentionally made it into a table and increased the line spacings and indentation, since I found the whole entry a bit crowded with the default line spacing... Do you prefer the previous non-tabular version? The format is not an issue since it is now all centralised. Wyang (talk) 03:18, 26 February 2014 (UTC)Reply
I like everything about the new version except the big white space and the centering because it's inconsistent with the formatting of all other Wiktionary entries. ---> Tooironic (talk) 03:42, 26 February 2014 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 10 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion
Greetings. I was looking through the characters list and pinyin for HSK part 1 (http://en.wiktionary.orghttps://dictious.com/en/Appendix:HSK_list_of_Mandarin_words/Beginning_Mandarin) for use in a course I will be teaching. Wanted to know why there are so many tonal errors, particularly in the fourth tone for several words (后), (或), etc. is this an encoding problem with the tonal markers or what? Wanted to ask before editing the entry.
Oh yes, that's right. I shouldn't have used the script template on Pinyin. It was just easier to replace all ] instances with the template. Thanks. --Anatoli(обсудить/вклад)04:24, 17 March 2014 (UTC)Reply
There is definitely a translation for it in Chinese, though it could be a paraphrase. All terms should be translated, regardless of whether one-to-one equivalence exists, we can't just give up because it's tricky IMO. I've followed this practice with all E-C translations, e.g. peer pressure, drag queen, etc. ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:24, 18 March 2014 (UTC)Reply
Like I said, I think we should translate everything, a good paraphrase translation - as a last resort - is still very useful for students and translators alike. BTW I dropped the 鬥富, one my colleagues recommended I do so. ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:45, 18 March 2014 (UTC)Reply
Unified Chinese
Latest comment: 10 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
While adding some Pinyin readings, I had to create 優化 and 优化 for yōuhuà, hereby contributing to your 50K Mandarin nouns project. Could you add the Pinyin reading of 專屬/专属? Are you going to consider making a goal for Mandarin adjectives? (BTW, what does an abstain vote do?) --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 04:03, 17 April 2014 (UTC)Reply
Pinyin reading is easy to add, just click on the green link in the given hanzi entry and it will automatically generate it for you. Don't know if I will make a goal for Mandarin adjectives, probably couldn't be bothered. I don't know what an abstain does, probably nothing. ---> Tooironic (talk) 06:00, 17 April 2014 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 10 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Hi Carl,
What's your opinion on capitalisation of demonyms and language names, it was sidetracked in Template_talk:cmn-new#Module_error. We need to decide if they are common or proper nouns in Chinese, then they are transliterated automatically as lower or upper case by {{cmn-new}}. (I saw you moved miáozú->Miáozú).
I think we've gotten caught up with the capitalisation of demonyms in English. In addition, demonyms are considered common nouns in English as it's not unique. The same should apply to Mandarin. Jamesjiao → T ◊ C03:43, 28 April 2014 (UTC)Reply
Yes, it's usually the case. However, month and week names are never capitalised in romanised Chinese or Japanese. Pleco uses Zhōnggúorén (no space) but zhōngguóhuà. Other respectable dictionaries, like Wenlin also capitalise a lot. There's less consistency there. We need to decide this among ourselves, IMHO. My preference now is to use lower case and common nouns for demonyms and languages, and no space or hyphen. What does everybody think? --Anatoli(обсудить/вклад)03:55, 28 April 2014 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 9 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Hi, have you considered making entries related to the aforementioned Chinese noun? Don't forget to update your 50k/20k list. (I'm on vacation in Twin Falls, Idaho and will be going to Redfish Lake, and then to home after that.) --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 11:00, 20 July 2014 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 9 years ago12 comments3 people in discussion
When you add a translation request, please use {{trreq|fi}} instead of {{t-needed|fi}} because trreq supports assisted entering of the translation. --Hekaheka (talk) 22:36, 30 September 2014 (UTC)Reply
It's OK. You don't need to do it manually. You can still type {{trreq}} with the language code "fi" and get the same. Adding translations manually is a waste of time too and you don't get interwikis when they exist. :) --Anatoli T.(обсудить/вклад)01:45, 7 October 2014 (UTC)Reply
It's debateable. Most nouns in Chinese can be used as attributives; the question is whether this usage is considered a separate part of speech or not. I have added the noun sense for 下级, let's just leave it there for now. ---> Tooironic (talk) 12:32, 5 October 2014 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 9 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Hiya Carl,
Do you find it difficult to make new entries yourself using {{zh-new}}? I reckon if translations are known, it's pretty easy and it doesn't have to be perfect. I don't mind you adding new requests but you can fill up some yourself, so we don't get too many. Typing them out sometimes takes about the same time as making an entry. --Anatoli T.(обсудить/вклад)03:55, 17 October 2014 (UTC)Reply
I usually only add the request for complex entries that I'm not confident I can translate accurately. Easy ones I add by myself. And I add a lot each day. ---> Tooironic (talk) 03:58, 17 October 2014 (UTC)Reply
Good question. I can't remember at this distance, but I have an idea that when I Google-searched for more citations, most of them were from Chinese translations. But where I found that specific Mandarin term I don't know. Ƿidsiþ08:11, 17 November 2014 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 9 years ago6 comments3 people in discussion
You added alternative Chinese terms for sashimi recently. There's been disagreement on this definition and we're not really getting anywhere on this matter. I tried to verify it, but it's a bit unclear what the precise definition of "生魚片" is, especially in relation to the English term "sashimi". Since you seem quite qualified in the field of Chinese-English translation, would you mind weighing in at talk:sashimi?
It describes a lot of different variants in different cultures, has a dablink to 刺身 and contains the sentence "日本生魚片稱為刺身". If this isn't about describing a genre of dishes, does ths mean that the definition of kuai should be about more than the ancient dish?
I don't mind you adding the requests at all. I just think those entries may be less important than many solid words still missing Chinese, Russian, Finnish, etc. translations and that these SoP terms may go along with all the translations. --Anatoli T.(обсудить/вклад)22:42, 22 February 2015 (UTC)Reply
Hi Carl. Sorry for not responding earlier. I'm back in Melbourne. You can try User:Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV/missing translations/cmn (you can ask User:Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV to refresh/tweak the page for you. It's not sorted by frequency, though, just showing random entries missing translations. I've been chasing solid words still missing but also check English common words to add translations. Let me settle a bit and let's catch up for coffee sometime. --Anatoli T.(обсудить/вклад)00:55, 5 March 2015 (UTC)Reply
It’s not random, it’s sorted by the size of the translation tables (i.e. tables that have translations in a lot of languages, but not in the given language, will show up higher in the lists). — Ungoliant(falai)01:02, 5 March 2015 (UTC)Reply
@Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV Thank you for the explanation! I'd like to also request the same thing I did for missing Russian translations, if it's OK with you, for future requests - only solid words (no spaces), no proper nouns, no capitalised words and only if no translation into a language exists at all (ignoring multiple senses). That way the most useful words can be covered, IMHO. --Anatoli T.(обсудить/вклад)01:09, 5 March 2015 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 9 years ago5 comments4 people in discussion
Thanks for all the new Chinese entries. Just a reminder to use templates in your etymologies so that they categorise right — see this diff for the changes I made to a recent entry of yours. (I make a few stupid mistakes along the way that I had to fix, so sorry about that.) Cheers! —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds02:33, 30 March 2015 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for your help with the templates. Even after all these years I still have trouble with them. But AFAIK 力比多 is a transliteration (音譯) not a phono-semantic matching, since the characters that make up 力比多 don't have any correlation with the meaning of libido itself, they are merely used because of the way they sound. What do you think? ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:45, 30 March 2015 (UTC)Reply
It's always better to use templates, which fix categorisation and make it easier to use the complex approach. "Transliteration" is usually obvious if there are phonetic similarities. Words like "phono-semantic", "calque", etc. can be added to help distinguish the types of borrowings. --Anatoli T.(обсудить/вклад)03:06, 30 March 2015 (UTC)Reply
irrigate
Latest comment: 9 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Could you please provide a usex or quote for "clean wound" -sense to which you asked for fi translation? It would help in making sure that the translation that I provide is a correct one. --Hekaheka (talk) 19:08, 13 April 2015 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 8 years ago5 comments3 people in discussion
Re this discussion at the tea room (sorry, I don't know how to make a neat link)...
I added some comments, but I seem to have pushed your comments on Chinese off to the bottom. Please have a look, and if you feel they could be better placed -- or my comment should be right at the bottom or whatever, feel free to move them around.
I don't know enough about Chinese to make a direct contribution, but I can't help wondering to what extent the (-men) suffix is genuinely a plural marker in any helpful sense. Is it used in any of the other ways that 達 the Japanese group suffix is, for example? Imaginatorium (talk) 14:46, 1 December 2015 (UTC)Reply
Well Chinese does not have grammatical number, however it does have the plural marker 們 which can indicate more than one of a noun. But its usage is extremely limited - it only used for a handful of people-nouns (teachers, students, comrades, etc.) and pronouns (we/us, you-plural, they-male, they-female, they-non-gender). I can't speak for the comparison with other East Asian languages. ---> Tooironic (talk) 04:15, 2 December 2015 (UTC)Reply
@Imaginatorium The Chinese plurality marker 們/们 (men) (pronounced "men" with a neutral tone in Mandarin) is used similarly to the Japanese 達(tachi) when it's attached to nouns (usually denoting humans) to mean plurality in most cases. It can also be used in impersonisations (when objects or animals are treated as humans - e.g. "the stars are looking at us"). It's also optional and only used when plurality is important. Like the Japanese suffix, it's used to form plurals of pronouns as well. It's not used to signify a group including a person's name, like the Japanese suffix. The Korean suffix 들 (deul) is also sometimes used with some inanimate objects. Vietnamese uses special markers (prefixes) - những and các, which precede nouns or pronouns (only "các"). The former is for "some" and the latter is for "all". Thai and Lao also use duplications to make plurals, AFAIK, apart from difference in using classifiers (measure words, counters). There are other means to make plurality obvious, of course, e.g. 這些/这些 (zhèxiē, “these”) can only refer to multiple objects/people/animals, e.g. 這些書/这些书 ("these books") vs 這本書/这本书 ("this (measure word) book"). --Anatoli T.(обсудить/вклад)04:58, 2 December 2015 (UTC)Reply
Excellent summary. Note also that some nouns are countable in Chinese but not in English, e.g. in Chinese we say "these news" (這些消息), "these knowledges" (這些知識), etc. I wrote a blog post on this a while back. ---> Tooironic (talk) 05:01, 2 December 2015 (UTC)Reply
One source for non-SoP Chinese entries to be created, without leaving Wiktionary
Latest comment: 8 years ago7 comments2 people in discussion
Hi Carl,
Just one for now: User:Matthias_Buchmeier/en-cmn-a (replace the last letter with a letter of the English alphabet). There are many SoP's among them but you can choose the ones you like. I can give you more links if you think you're going to use those. Paste red links into Wenlin and see what you get. Pleco and CEDICT are also helpful. Pleco can also give Canto readings. --Anatoli T.(обсудить/вклад)01:36, 7 December 2015 (UTC)Reply
On an un-related note, I'm more interested in adding common collocations (固定搭配) as these are especially useful for learners and translators alike. You wouldn't happen to know any resources would you? I have yet to come across anything that useful or comprehensive. ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:59, 7 December 2015 (UTC)Reply
I'm trying to be consistent across all entries. Example sentence translations should be italicised to distinguish them from real text citations, just as we do for English entries. At the moment however we have no way of doing this automatically for Chinese entries. ---> Tooironic (talk) 03:06, 4 February 2016 (UTC)Reply
I agree with suzukaze-c. Usage examples are not italicised. If they needed to be, they would be by the template. Making them italicised makes them inconsistent with other examples. --Anatoli T.(обсудить/вклад)03:16, 4 February 2016 (UTC)Reply
Yet all English example sentences are italicised to distinguish them from citations. So this would make Chinese inconsistent with the rest of Wiktionary. ---> Tooironic (talk) 03:18, 4 February 2016 (UTC)Reply
If we, jointly, decide to italicise example sentences, your examples will become normal (un-italicised). There is almost a consensus not to templatise English usexes but you're italicising translations, not the examples themselves (which wouldn't make sense for Chinese examples). --Anatoli T.(обсудить/вклад)03:42, 4 February 2016 (UTC)Reply
One more thing: is there a way to put two terms on one line to show they are derived from each other, e.g. at 工程 - 工程兵 (gōngchéngbīng); 工兵 (gōngbīng). Cheers. ---> Tooironic (talk) 10:38, 29 March 2016 (UTC)Reply
That's one standard - the other is to write all chengyu as one word with no spaces or hyphens. I'm in favour of the latter as it's simpler. ---> Tooironic (talk) 04:29, 17 May 2016 (UTC)Reply
Is there some way I could just add the hyphens as they are employed in Xiandai Hanyu Cidian, maybe with a notation that this is one possible interpretation of many? The people who made the Xiandai Hanyu Cidian probably employed the 正词法 "Basic rules of the Chinese phonetic alphabet orthography" in a semi-authoritative way when they applied the hyphens to the pinyin given for the four-character phrases etc. Here's me talking about this topic on another page: Talk:興高采烈. no hurry --Geographyinitiative (talk) 12:19, 22 March 2018 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 7 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion
You have asked to provide a Finnish translation to this sense. Would you mind to explain, what it means exactly, or better even, find a usex or two. Is it "to give in + marriage" or "to give + in marriage"? --Hekaheka (talk) 14:14, 27 May 2016 (UTC)Reply
I imagine it means "to give + in marriage", since "to give in + marriage" doesn't make sense. In other words, I think it means to give a gift or money for someone getting married. I may be wrong though. The OED does not list this sense. We could RFV it. ---> Tooironic (talk) 06:36, 28 May 2016 (UTC)Reply
The verb betroth has the sense "to promise to give in marriage" and it is accompanied by the usex "He betrothed his daughter to a distant relative". Thus "give in marriage" would seem to mean "to give one's son or daughter for a spouse to someone". I agree it should be rfv'ed, if other dictionaries do not recognize the sense. --Hekaheka (talk) 10:55, 30 May 2016 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 7 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
I added Chinese simplified forms, as you can see on my list of contributions. Would you or someone else like to make a file listing all those words? --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 04:05, 20 June 2016 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 7 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion
As the creator of this title, do you happen to know whether fake book and "chord book" are the same? Both get hundreds of thousands of Google hits and they appear to have similar content. In Finnish I find lots of sointukirja (chordbook) but nothing in the way of musical "fake book". --Hekaheka (talk) 04:48, 6 August 2016 (UTC)Reply
I'm a lifelong musical duffer, currently a half-hour-a-day piano learner, and my impression is that "fake book" is the term a musician would use while "chord book" is the term a music teacher might use. They could both be the same person, at different times talking to different somebody elses. A fake book, of course, shows whole pieces of music with slash chords("B/D# "), while chord books are often just pamphlets or books of chords, probably spelled out in full ("For the slash chord D/F# your right hand will be playing the top chord. Broken down a standard D Triad looks like this (D F# A.)...)", families of chords, and fingerings, often with illustrations for the beginner.
One of the fake things about fake books is the compliance with copyright and ASCAP. There is none. This would be a bogus etymology, though. They're really an aid to a session player faking their way through a gig.
Latest comment: 7 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
I'm wondering if you could add an etymology here. The OED has "Chinese Tong (or Taung) -ké (or -kei), dialect form of Tun-ki or Tun-chi, the name of two streams (and a town) in An-hui and Chi-kiang, China." DTLHS (talk) 02:01, 19 August 2016 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 7 years ago5 comments3 people in discussion
It was agreed some time ago that translation requests would be kept to those of immediate interest - if there are too many those which people really want will be lost amongst the many. Of course, eventually all will be translated :) — Saltmarshσυζήτηση-talk06:44, 28 August 2016 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 7 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
I don't know how to leave you a note. Is this how?
I also don't know how to "add it to the list" under requests for new entries.
I got here by looking in Wiktionary for 陈腔滥调, and finding nothing, then thinking that English was the wrong place to look, going to "Mandarin" leads and still finding nothing.
Anyway, my original quirk is, this seems like a delicious phrase, and I'm sure I'll want to use it some time in the future if I ever speak Mandarin -- but I wouldn't want to do so without knowing its etymology ~~ which is why I turned to Wikipedia.
So.
So, first, thanks for all your good work as an editor. This is a wonderful resource, so I appreciate the work of people like yourself who are constructing it.
Second, so I'd like to know how to add to that list, and how to write to you correctly. And I'd like it if the instructions in the relevant places were clearer but I'll get it figured out soon -- and it's probably a good thing that there be some barriers against the profligate and the promiscuous among posters... :-)
Third, offhand do you know the etymology of 陈腔滥调? Or can you just tell me "how it works," what sort of situation it turns up in in Putonghua?
I've added an entry for it. The etymology however is unclear. It is used to describe writing that lacks innovation. Note also the common idiom 陳詞濫調 with a similar meaning. ---> Tooironic (talk) 07:18, 30 December 2016 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 7 years ago5 comments3 people in discussion
I was having another look at this entry earlier today, and I was curious if you or @Wyang or any of the other ZH editors (whose names currently escape me) could expand on the etymological details, to provide more details on the change in meaning over time. I also think this term should probably go in Category:Chinese_twice-borrowed_terms, similar to 物理(wùlǐ). The wasei kango mention and categorization strikes me as a mistake, as this term was not coined in Japanese so much as repurposed from its Chinese origins in a clear development and expansion of earlier senses -- wasei kango should be reserved specifically for terms “invented in Japan rather than borrowed from China” (per the w:Wasei-kango article), which 自由(zìyóu) clearly isn't.
Is this something you'd have any interest in doing? If not, do you have any suggestions for who might find this interesting? Or should I just have a stab at it, and rely on your help for fixing any mistakes on my part? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig18:43, 18 January 2017 (UTC)Reply
This is a fascinating topic, but one that I'm afraid I have little expertise in. Given how difficult it is to determine the etymology of these kind of entries, we should ideally be consulting scholarly sources to get a final answer. Have you tried contacting any of the other active Chinese contributors that are listed on my user page? They are much more knowledgeable in linguistics than me. ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:43, 19 January 2017 (UTC)Reply
I am for rewriting the {{wasei kango}} template to only include Japanese coinages. I don't like using the default {{der}} to write the vi ↔ zh ↔ ja ↔ ko borrowings, as most of the borrowings are only by "form", not by "sound" (as is implied by {{der}}). The sounds are deduced from the forms in the borrowing language, not from the borrowed language. For example, Category:Korean terms derived from Japanese is now a mix of sound (e.g. 히라가나)- and form (e.g. 할인)-borrowings. Wyang (talk) 06:37, 19 January 2017 (UTC)Reply
Old zh -> ja borrowings are generally okay, but the default {{der}} wording may be confusing for ja -> zh borrowings, such as 自由(zìyóu). If we repurpose {{wasei kango}} to only include Japanese coinages, I would prefer we use a separate template for the etymology of 自由(zìyóu) and include some explanation that the borrowing was only by 'form', not using the default {{der|zh|zh}}. Wyang (talk) 07:26, 19 January 2017 (UTC)Reply
Native speakers of any Chinese language who AREN'T of Chinese ethnicity
Latest comment: 7 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Hi Tooironic, do you know of anyone who falls into this category, i.e. your friends, famous people? They should usually be Western, but there are some exceptions – AWESOME meeos ! * (chōmtī hao /t͡ɕoːm˩˧.tiː˩˧ haw˦˥/) 05:10, 12 February 2017 (UTC)Reply
Ideally, with formatted translation and pronunciation, so that they can be fed into {{zh-new}}. It is okay if it is unformatted and/or without pronunciation; formatting and pronunciation can be done semi-automatically - I think the entries will need be manually checked before and after creation to make sure they are correctly generated. Wyang (talk) 08:13, 18 April 2017 (UTC)Reply
@Lo Ximiendo Thanks. Some terms I can easily tell they are idiomatic and we need them but for some more time would be needed to asses or native speakers or more advanced speakers are required. It is a little dangerous to copy from another Wiktionary, their CFI can be very different from ours. --Anatoli T.(обсудить/вклад)07:29, 22 April 2017 (UTC)Reply
祕 in simplified Chinese
Latest comment: 7 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion
Latest comment: 6 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion
For future reference: if someone moves an entry to a new spelling and you think there should be entries at both old and new spellings, move the entry back to the old spelling and create the entry for the new spelling from scratch. Recreating the entry for the old spelling from the redirect means that the revision history is at the wrong entry and will get deleted if the new spelling fails rfv. Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 07:44, 10 December 2017 (UTC)Reply
Moving 高頂絲製禮帽 to 高頂絲質禮帽 was the only way to have the edit history at the correct place. I didn't know enough about the 高頂絲製禮帽 entry (or Chinese entries in general) to recreate it properly, and since it was being rfved due to having only 2 raw Google hits, I left it at that. As I said at the RFV (which you probably didn't see because I deleted the page that linked to it), I basically speedied that page, but if anyone wanted to recreate it and continue the rfv, that was fine with me. I realize that this has left the simplified-form entry hanging out over empty space, but it was the best I could do in the time that I had.
The content of the page at the time I deleted it is in the revision history of 高頂絲質禮帽 (I made sure to restore the deleted revisions in the edit history), but if you use any of that content, you'll have to provide a link (either a literal link or a mention that contains enough detail so anyone can find it) from the entry that contains it to that revision history so that the attribution chain is maintained (either in an edit comment or on the talk page). Since this was basically just an alternative-form page, it seemed to me better to start from scratch so you wouldn't have to do that. As long as proper attribution is present at each entry for all the edits that end up in the current version of the entry in question, I'm fine with what ever you decide to do. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:48, 12 December 2017 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 6 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
I left a message at the Talk Room but on second thoughts I should have left it here.
The message I left was:
The Wiktionary page on 丑鸭 , meaning 'harlequin duck', has a 'See also' redirect to 醜鴨.
It also carries the note:
For pronunciation and definitions of 丑鸭 – see 醜鴨 (“harlequin duck”).
(This term, 丑鸭, is the simplified form of 醜鴨.)
This information is incorrect. The Simplified character 丑 is actually a simplification of two Traditional characters: 醜 meaning 'ugly' and 丑 meaning 'clown'. In the case of 丑鸭, the correct Traditional form is 丑鴨 literally 'clown duck' (that is, 'harlequin duck'), not 醜鴨 'ugly duck'. This is quite apparent if you visit the Wikipedia page on 丑鸭, where the Taiwan traditional character version gives 丑鴨.
I would fix this myself but I'm not sure how to go about it. Fixing it requires 1) transferring all the information from the 醜鴨 page to the 丑鸭 page, and 2) deleting the 醜鴨 page completely.
(Sorry if my formatting isn't correct. I'm not sure how to link within Wiktionary)
Latest comment: 6 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Perhaps veined patterns on the sand of a beach. I found this: "沙文浪中積 Patterns on the sandy beach accumulate in the waves" (2012, Ping Wang, The Age of Courtly Writing). Equinox◑15:36, 14 March 2018 (UTC)Reply
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Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
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Latest comment: 6 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
On 2014年12月4日 (四) 05:43 you specifically changed this word's pronunciation from |m=liánpeng to |m=liánpéng,tl=y . I have made another change based on the Xiandai Hanyu Cidian, Xiandai Hanyu Guifan Cidian and Taiwan MOE dictionary website. If you have the time, please let me know what you think. Thanks! --Geographyinitiative (talk) 09:00, 19 April 2018 (UTC)Reply
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Latest comment: 6 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion
Hello! Can I ask, how do you translate 'toneless final syllable variants' into Chinese? I made a page for 重·次輕詞語 in the belief that this is the same thing as the 'toneless final syllable variants' we see mentioned in the Xiandai Hanyu Cidian. I have a test prep book for the w:Putonghua Proficiency Test which seems to make this connection. (Have you taken that test yet? It's pretty interesting- please check out and edit the Wikipedia page for it if you are interested- I plan to be making edits to that page over the course of the next few months.) Also, I'd appreciate any feedback and/or edits you could make on the 沒有 and 巴不得 pages which I have been editing recently, both of which have a toneless final syllable variant ("they are 重·次輕詞語"- is that correct?) in Xiandai Hanyu Cidian Ed 7. Are the Mandarin pronunciations on these pages standard? Are they 'right'? Any insights and edits you could make would be sincerely appreciated. Thanks!
Here's the definition we have at 重·次輕: toneless final syllable variants (Used to describe a two or three character Chinese word in which a variant pronunciation for the final character can be read in neutral tone or in its normal tone) If everything I have done is wrong, please do not hesitate to delete it. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 12:51, 6 May 2018 (UTC)Reply
"Toneless final syllable variant" is (末字)輕聲變體, and corresponds to 重·輕. Btw, I think 重·次輕 is a sum of parts; it can be 重/中/輕·重/次輕/輕. Wyang (talk) 23:06, 6 May 2018 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 5 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Knock knock, I have removed 同是 from page tóngshì. I think I would treat 同是 as a SoP phrase rather than a word, so I think its pinyin form would be tóng shì. Both 同 and 是 can be used alone in MSM, even colloquially. Dokurrat (talk) 18:36, 26 July 2018 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 5 years ago8 comments3 people in discussion
Hi. I'm new to Wiktionary. Is this how I contact Tooironic? -- i.e. by editing the User talk:Tooironic webpage? I wanted to make a comment about the remark that "CC-CEDICT did not explain the reason or give a proof for this pronunciation " -- on Talk:小姐Richwarm88 (talk) 03:57, 14 September 2018 (UTC)Reply
In the editor's comments, I pointed out that xiǎojie was given as the pronunciation in the following sources: ABC C-E Dictionary, Oxford Concise C-E, New Age (Commercial Press), Contemporary Chinese Dictionary (FLTRP), ChinesePod lesson transcripts (in most cases), and "Mandarin Primer" by Yuen Ren Chao.
@Richwarm88: Thanks for the links and sources! 小姐 is one of the 重·次轻 words, which is distinct from both the normal unreduced disyllables (中·重) and fully reduced disyllables (重·最轻). There is no official way to notate 重·次轻 in Pinyin, and I guess that is the reason for the discrepancy. Wyang (talk) 05:29, 14 September 2018 (UTC)Reply
OK, thanks. But the previous version of the entry for 小姐 said
Pinyin: xiǎojiě → xiǎojie (toneless final syllable variant)
whereas now it says
Pinyin: xiǎojiě
which means that the fact that there is a "toneless final syllable variant" has been deleted.
@Richwarm88: The complexity is 重·次輕 (partially reduced) words are pronounced differently from 重·最輕 (fully reduced) words, especially after rising-tone syllables. The removal of the tonelessness information is IMO based on valid concerns. In general, pronouncing 重·次輕 words as normal, unreduced words feels only marginally unnatural, but pronouncing it as the prototypical toneless word 重·最輕 when the preceding syllable is rising tone gives an awkwardly unnatural feeling (違和感). IPA-wise, a fully reduced xiǎojie is expected to be /ɕi̯ɑʊ̯²¹⁴ d͡ʑ̥i̯ɛ⁴/ (with a mid-high-pitched flat second syllable), and a partially reduced one /ɕi̯ɑʊ̯²¹⁴ t͡ɕi̯ɛ²¹/ (with a low-falling second syllable). Wyang (talk) 07:15, 14 September 2018 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 5 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion
I have often encountered the sentiment that 'place names are never in qingsheng', but I just don't know if it's true. No need to change 扒頭 one way or the other; I just don't believe that 'place names are never in qingsheng' is a proven fact of Mandarin. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 09:16, 13 October 2018 (UTC)Reply
Yuen Ren Chao writes in his Mandarin Primer (p.27), "Some neutral tones are optional, as Jeh.jiang or Jehjiang 'Chekiang'." (i.e. Zhèjiang or Zhèjiāng 浙江) – Richwarm88 (talk) 08:28, 25 October 2018 (UTC)Reply
I was being really careless...
Latest comment: 5 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Do you have an example of a Chinese header on an entry not created by you? I've looked at several entries in Category:Mandarin pinyin and they all have a Mandarin header.
As I understand it, the reason we have everything under a Chinese header is because the written language is more unified than the spoken language. Hanyu pinyin is specific to Mandarin, and represents spoken Mandarin, which is quite distinct from the other topolects as spoken. As such, IMO, it should have a Mandarin header. Also, if you look at the categories on the page, they all say "Mandarin". It seems strange to have the text of the page at odds with its categorization. Chuck Entz (talk) 22:23, 23 November 2018 (UTC)Reply
@Tooironic, Chuck Entz I don't think I came up with the 'Chinese' header for pinyin on my own- I think I would have copy-pasted it from somewhere. But I wasn't paying close attention to that header because it wasn't the focus of my effort. I will use the Mandarin header as was stated here. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 06:29, 24 November 2018 (UTC)Reply
lemma forms & pinyin
Latest comment: 5 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Hello! I want to do an edit of the page ké that looks like this: . I feel like I am not doing it right because I don't have the correct theoretical understanding of lemma forms. If you have any suggestions or pointers about this edit, please make edits to that page according to your understanding. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 13:31, 15 December 2018 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 5 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Drive-by comment-- Back in 2009, you made a page for 變得. But I don't see this presented as a word in 现代汉语词典第7版 on page 80, 现代汉语规范词典第3版 on page 76, 辞海第6版 page 153, jianbian, chongbian or zdic- why would they all skip it if they considered it a word? However, it does have an entry on zaojv. Regardless, to me there's no question that 'biànde' (no space) is a legitimate Pinyin- it appears in the Pinyin text in 普通话水平测试实施纲要 on page 355 and seems to comply with 《汉语拼音正词法基本规则》6.1.9.1. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 13:51, 20 December 2018 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 5 years ago5 comments2 people in discussion
Hello! I know you are big on Pinyin, and I was thinking about my reoccurring conflicts with other Wiktionary editors concerning Hanyu Pinyin when a solution came to mind. Why not show the alternate forms of Hanyu Pinyin on each Hanyu Pinyin page as we already do with Zhuyin Fuhao (and maybe also in the hidden part of the Template:zh-pron box)? For instance, it seems that there are three ways to write the Hanyu Pinyin for the ㄐㄧㄣ ˙ㄅㄨ ㄓㄨˋ pronunciation of 禁不住: one is "jīnbuzhù" ("lianxie" method), which is the way it is written in Xiandai Hanyu Guifan Cidian (see 现代汉语规范词典第3版 page 686 "jīnbuzhù"). Another is "jīn˙buzhù" ("dotted" method), which is the way this word and all other words with a silent tone are handled in Xiandai Hanyu Cidian, Edition 7 (see 现代汉语词典第7版 page 677 "jīn˙buzhù"). Note that the "dotted" method is explicitly allowed for use in Mainland dictionaries per 《汉语拼音正词法基本规则》7.3条 (2012). A third method is "jīn ˙bu zhù" ("spaced" method), which is the way it is written in Xiandai Hanyu Cidian Trial Edition (and probably some other later versions) (see 现代汉语词典试用本 page 525 "jīn ˙bu zhù"). Note that, following the usage of spaces in left-right aligned Zhuyin Fuhao, the third "spaced" method seems to be followed for almost all words by 簡編 and 重編, a practice which renders 隔音符號 utterly useless. The "spaced" method was previously used for a lot of words in Xiandai Hanyu Cidian, but is now only used for a smaller number of entries. I would like to propose that somebody make a change to Template:cmn-pinyin such that in addition to displaying "jīnbuzhù" and "ㄐㄧㄣ ˙ㄅㄨ ㄓㄨˋ", our readers can also get an automatically generated or semi-automatically generated glimpse of the "dotted" and "spaced" alternative methods of writing Hanyu Pinyin- in this instance, "jīn˙buzhù" and "jīn ˙bu zhù". It sounds like a lot of programming work; the first attempt to do this kind of edit may result in a messy situation. But I can tell you that I will let you know if I see any unusual Hanyu Pinyin forms as I edit. I think this would make the dictionary stronger in that we are finding a way to encompass all of the officially sanctioned versions of Hanyu Pinyin. Just a passing thought- Merry Christmas! --Geographyinitiative (talk) 10:40, 25 December 2018 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 5 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Hi,
you've moved subj to sing form. However, that creates a problem in the Translations section: many of the translations are in fact in plural. Not sure what the way forward could be.Borovi4ok (talk) 17:15, 26 January 2019 (UTC)Reply
I'm afraid this goes beyond my expertise. I wonder though whether this only applies to Beijing dialect? What about Standard Mandarin, and the various other varieties of Mandarin? ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:07, 15 February 2019 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 5 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion
Months ago I contacted you about seeing some Hanyu Pinyin pages that had the header "Chinese" instead of "Mandarin". At the time, I couldn't give you an example that wasn't one that I had personally made. I just saw one today: zǔzhīxué. It was changed to Mandarin today. They are out there. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 22:36, 28 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 5 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion
Hi. May I ask two questions? Does expression "economical pack" exist as far as you know personally? I guess the common expression in English would be "value pack", right? Thanks. Dokurrat (talk) 07:10, 25 April 2019 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 5 years ago5 comments3 people in discussion
Hey- I love your synonym work. I would like to point out one potential problem that may already aware of. Because of the way Thesaurus:發牢騷 works, 吐槽 is listed as a synonym of itself on the 吐槽 page.
This is true for 怨嘆 and the other words too. I do not accept that a word can be legitimately called a synonym of itself, and I therefore object to including word 吐槽 under the heading for 'Synonyms' on the 吐槽 page.
This is not a big deal, and I can understand an argument for keeping 吐槽 in the synonyms box on the 吐槽 page. But I just wanted to let you know what I was feeling- 'Synonyms' can not be "A=A"- they are "A=B" (to me).
Whether or not my crazy 'problem' is resolved, keep going. It's a very minor complaint I'm making here.
I try to choose ones that don't have any other meanings or usages apart from the one being referred to in the thesaurus. Feel free to make any changes where you see fit. ---> Tooironic (talk) 10:42, 30 April 2019 (UTC)Reply
Ah, I see. I feel like another thing to consider is how specific a word is. To me, 發牢騷 seems a little more particular than 埋怨. 埋怨 doesn't seem to have any other meaning and its usage is pretty broad (self and others), so it seems to be a better choice. — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }17:22, 30 April 2019 (UTC)Reply
I have tried my best but if you see areas for improvement please go ahead and make the necessary edits. As I'm sure you appreciate, it can be quite tricky at times. Having edited many synonyms entries, I have found that the line between a synonym, near-synonym and a related term can be very difficult to determine. I consult multiple dictionaries and thesauri, but they often do not agree with each other. My only rule that I have stuck to is to make sure that all the synonyms listed are of the same part of speech. ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:16, 1 May 2019 (UTC)Reply
Yeah, synonyms are tricky. (Unfortunately, parts of speech are also tricky for Chinese.) It might be good to check thesauri to see what they use as the headword. — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }02:25, 1 May 2019 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 4 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Hey- I'm thinking 就義 could potentially be added to zh-syn-saurus|死亡 but I'm not sure, so I thought I would see what you thought about it first. What do you think? Thanks --Geographyinitiative (talk) 12:29, 19 May 2019 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 4 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
I find 義薄雲天 difficult to translate into English, the reason being there doesn't seem to be a good English translation for the Chinese compound 義氣. Can you please suggest a better translation for 義薄雲天 than the crappy one we currently have? RcAlex36 (talk) 15:43, 6 July 2019 (UTC)Reply
I have added a literal translation and fixed the grammar in the definition. That's all I can do for now. There is no equivalent for 義氣 in English, so it is not possible to provide a perfect translation. ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:53, 8 July 2019 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
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How to download the whole list of available words for a certain language on the Wiktionnary, and the translation of all of them in some chosen languages ?
Hi everyone,
What I'm trying to do is the following: 1) choose a language, 2) obtain a list of all words in this language (that have a definition and translations on the Wiktionnary), 3) download the list of these words as well as the list of all the translations of each of these, 4) repeat this for other languages, so as to create bilingual lists for selected languages (French-spanish, English-german, arabic-hebrew, ...).
Thank you so much for your help, I have been struggling so much to try and find how to proceed ...
Best,
You are using the wrong space character
Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Latest comment: 4 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Hey- I just wanted to let you know that I do not recommend the methodology you are employing on the Dengzhou page. In my opinion, the etymologies should be split like on the Hongshan page. If you just don't have the time to do it right now, that's fine, but I just want to confirm that you wouldn't think all the definitions on the Hongshan page should be subsumed into one etymology. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 05:54, 25 November 2019 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 4 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion
Hey- in your 2016 creation of the Tumxuk page, you made a pronunciation request. I actually did find a New York Times article describing the pronunciation of this word. "(pronounced TUM-shook)" Is this good enough to be able to generate an IPA pronunciation from? I don't know how to do it. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 11:28, 4 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 4 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Do you think 假大空 can be count as a derived term of 大空? even though 大空 is in 假大空 but 假大空 is a combination of 假,大,and 空? Shen233 (talk) 03:50, 9 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 4 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Hi! Back in 2009, you defined 紅人 as "fair-haired person". Many dictionaries have "fair-haired boy", which means "someone who is liked by a person who has power or influence, and who is therefore likely to be successful"
. But it seems no dictionary other than Wiktionary suggests that 紅人 can mean "a person who has fair hair", which is the only thing "fair-haired person" can mean, as far as I'm aware. Richwarm88 (talk) 23:04, 23 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
I have adjusted the senses in order of frequency of usage. The first two are certainly the most common. "Fair-haired person" is my mistake. I have edited it out now. Thanks for spotting it. ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:07, 24 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
zhǐdào for 指導?
Latest comment: 3 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion
I came across the reading zhǐdào in the Chinese Wiktionary, the simplified version of 指導 in particular. What kind of reading is it?
@Apisite: I don't think we should include zhǐdào unless it's common. It's probably used by some southerners due to dialectal influence but I don't know if it's common enough. — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }18:54, 8 May 2020 (UTC)Reply
@Apisite: I have not come across that reading before. We do include variant readings, but they need to be common and systemic, e.g. 室 read as shǐ is common, especially among Northerners, despite being non-standard, and can be found in any of the compound terms like 辦公室, 教室. etc. Do you have any sources/evidence for this reading? ---> Tooironic (talk) 19:56, 8 May 2020 (UTC)Reply
什
Latest comment: 3 years ago6 comments3 people in discussion
Hey, I wanted to alert you that I found at least one translation with Hanyu Pinyin that read 什 as shen where it should be shi. Don't know if this could have been a systematic problem. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 07:38, 11 August 2020 (UTC)Reply
Google Books: "The same method could be used in several places to the north of the Tian Shan as well as in the Haerjun basin near Artux (Atushen) County in southwestern Xlnjiang." "A good deal of coins of the period of Kala Khan were unearthed in Atushen." Are they wrong? ---> Tooironic (talk) 03:24, 13 August 2020 (UTC)Reply
Did you try Googling around? I'm not aware of any particular studies, but I'm sure they exist. Erhuayin words considered standard in Putonghua tend to be included in dictionaries like the Xiandai Hanyu Guifan Cidian, however many common regional and dialectal words won't be included. ---> Tooironic (talk) 12:50, 25 August 2020 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Hello Tooironic,
Really sorry for the inconvenience. This is a gentle note to request that you check your email. We sent you a message titled "The Community Insights survey is coming!". If you have questions, email [email protected].
Hey, on the main page I was wondering how to make it for even more days. I wanted to apply it to another wiki because I won't be there all the time to add another word of the day.
Latest comment: 3 years ago8 comments3 people in discussion
Hey- way back in 2017, you made the page for Kaifeng- thanks for doing that work. The etymology you provided at that time was not correct because it assumed that the Hanyu Pinyin system had generated the word Kaifeng. In fact, the word was already in existence before World War II (see the new example I have added to the page). I would like to urge caution on this front when an etymology is written in the future, and ask you to check to make sure English language loan words from Mandarin Chinese are confirmably Hanyu Pinyin derived. It may seem silly, but if a word existed before Hanyu Pinyin, then the word is not derived from Hanyu Pinyin. The opposite is true: Zhou Youguang used the systems that existed at that time to craft the Hanyu Pinyin system, a system that wouldn't be used until decades later. It would be more correct to say that the word Kaifeng led to Hanyu Pinyin than the opposite. Historical revisionist etymology viewed from the "Hanyu Pinyin is de facto Chinese" mindset is 1984 territory because it interferes with the accurate understanding of the origin of words. Thanks for your work. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 22:56, 22 January 2021 (UTC)Reply
Thank you for picking up on this. In the absence of peer-reviewed scholarly research, I think it is preferable to format transcriptions like we do at Chongqing, which does not mention anything about pinyin. In my opinion, the most important question is the language (Mandarin, Cantonese, Min Nan, etc.) the word derives from, not the romanization scheme it happens to be written in. ---> Tooironic (talk) 23:01, 22 January 2021 (UTC)Reply
Wow, what a refreshing reply! That was awesome. I would like to make two further comments on what you have said.
1) I agree that as a general principle, it is correct to be vague in an etymology and just say which language a word is derived from. I also agree that "the most important question is the language (Mandarin, Cantonese, Min Nan, etc.) the word derives from" and not the romanization system.
2) You wrote "In the absence of peer-reviewed scholarly research" we might have trouble determining where a word/spelling came from. There is a way to get a pretty solid idea of where a Mandarin derived loan word came from into English. In the case of Chongqing in particular, I speculate that, with a little research, we would likely be able to say with great certainty that the word "Chongqing" originated with Hanyu Pinyin. My method of verification would be as follows: 1) What is the postal romanization names (and variants), Wade-Giles names (and variants), and archaic (and variants) names for 'Chongqing'? If they are all different from Chongqing, then... 2) What is the earliest use of the word 'Chongqing' on archive.org? Without looking, I would guess that the earliest usage will be somewhere around 1978. There may be some fancy pants Communist literature from the 1950s that uses the word, but I doubt it. 3) Once we see no confirmed instances of the word 'Chongqing' before 1950, and we know that the other systems could not have produced 'Chongqing', then we can say with reasonable certainty that the spelling 'Chongqing' not only originated with Mandarin, but is almost certain to be Hanyu Pinyin derived, even in the absence of peer-reviewed scholarly research. Let me know if this methodology is flawed, but it seems to work pretty well. (It gets a little more complex with Taiwan.) --Geographyinitiative (talk) 00:14, 23 January 2021 (UTC)Reply
(If you go through this process with Kaifeng, you either realize Kaifeng is derived from an earlier romanization system on step 1, or you discover that it existed before 1950 on step 2.) --Geographyinitiative (talk) 00:17, 23 January 2021 (UTC)Reply
The whole area I'm interested in with respect to these words is treated as something no interesting person would ever study. It's not because that's actually true, it's actually because the real answer is politically inconvenient for Hanyu Pinyin only ideology. Well I reject that. I'm interested in these loan words and their origins and I will restore sanity on where these damn words came from. Who better to restore sanity than a crazy man? --Geographyinitiative (talk) 02:34, 23 January 2021 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 2 years ago6 comments4 people in discussion
Hello, I was just wondering would you be able to clean up and/or expand the Chinese section of this entry? Just happened to notice an anon edit that entry while skimming through RecentChanges. User: The Ice Magetalk to meh15:47, 9 May 2021 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 2 years ago5 comments3 people in discussion
I'd like to ask if "玩忽職守" is really an idiom? After all, not all Chinese words with 4 characters are idioms. Also, what is the etymology of the term, if it is really an idiom (like the case of 守株待兔)?廣九直通車 (talk) 09:24, 2 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
If we use Oxford's definition of "idiom" ("a group of words established by usage as having a meaning not deducible from those of the individual words"), it's debatable that 玩忽職守 can be considered an idiom, because 玩忽 means "to neglect" and 職守 means "duty", while 玩忽職守 seems to be pretty much "to neglect one's duty". 玩忽職守 is not labeled as an idiom in most dictionaries that include it, whereas 守株待兔 is so labeled in many dictionaries. For example, ABC labels 玩忽職守 as a "v.o" (verb + object) and 守株待兔 as an "id." (idiom). Richwarm88 (talk) 00:11, 6 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
For Chinese entries we do not go by that criterion. It would entail the deletion of thousands of entries that are otherwise included in published Chinese monolingual dictionaries. ---> Tooironic (talk) 00:44, 6 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
I didn't mention anything that relates to inclusion or deletion of an entry. The issue is labeling, not inclusion/deletion. 廣九直通車, in creating the entry for 玩忽職守, labeled it a "verb", then you changed the label to "idiom", then 廣九直通車 questioned that change. Nobody has suggested deleting the entry. It's only the label that is being queried. Your explanation for the "idiom" label was that 玩忽職守 is in Guifan Cidian, but of course not everything in that dictionary should be labeled "idiom". — Richwarm88 (talk) 03:23, 6 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
If labeling is the issue, they are currently labelled as idioms. The "chengyu" category is then added for chengyus.
Can you identify the word on this licence plate?
Latest comment: 2 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Latest comment: 2 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Hey Tooironic. I remember that you were one of the users behind having pinyin entries. I want to suggest that the way that the pinyin is blue-linked on the Zengdu page (in the etymology and the translation sections) is much more helpful the way the pinyin appears on the Zhangzi page. If you like the way Zengdu appears, it might be a good idea to make this automatic or standard throughout Wiktionary. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 15:35, 2 August 2021 (UTC)Reply
Could you please refrain from editing like this? That is not standard practice on the English Wiktionary currently. If you want changes to be made, you will need to convince the community through a vote and find someone who can enact the changes automatically by script. ---> Tooironic (talk) 22:15, 2 August 2021 (UTC)Reply
星梨
Latest comment: 2 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion
Both the Xiandai hanyu guifan cidian and the Xiandai hanyu cidian use hyphens when the chengyu is made up of two components (not for every chengyu). I wasn't aware we voted to never include commas. ---> Tooironic (talk) 04:41, 1 October 2021 (UTC)Reply
There's no formal vote (I think you mean to never include hyphens), but it has been decided long ago. I guess you forgot what was decided (for example just above in #Hyphens in chengyu, and I think we did have subsequent discussions on this, like Talk:興高采烈, Talk:光輝燦爛). I think you need to write it down somewhere where you won't forget. — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }04:51, 1 October 2021 (UTC)Reply
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Latest comment: 2 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
The traditional form of this word is 黃禍論 while the simplified form is 黄祸论, which are pages already existing on this wiki. Since 黄禍論 mixes simplified and traditional forms while also being on the User:Matthias_Buchmeier/en-ja-y list, I assumed it was Japanese shinjitai and created the page accordingly. But I don't know if the word is first coined in Japanese or Chinese. --Kakurady (talk) 22:39, 24 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 1 year ago15 comments3 people in discussion
Hi, I have observed that you have been labelling many definitions on single-character pages as "literary or in compounds". I was wondering what your basis for this is, because in many cases, I would think it probably isn't literary (either because it was never used in literary Chinese or because it is still used as a free morpheme in Standard Chinese). — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }05:59, 6 July 2022 (UTC)Reply
I only add that tag to hanzi for sense that are not used independently in Standard Chinese (e.g., collocated with objects, adverbs, etc.). This is important information, as without it gives the false impression that the sense can be readily used by itself. ---> Tooironic (talk) 06:07, 6 July 2022 (UTC)Reply
You labelled the "dance (performance art); dancing" sense with "literary or in compounds" in this edit when it can clearly be used independently in Standard Chinese. I observe that you often indiscriminately apply the label to characters that are clearly free morphemes. It is best that you do not use the label at all, or follow mainstream monolingual dictionaries when applying the literary label. RcAlex36 (talk) 06:13, 6 July 2022 (UTC)Reply
跳舞 is a compound though. That's why we include it, as do other dictionaries. Thus: "literary or in compounds". But then again we do say "這個舞" without the 跳. So now I understand that I was mistaken in this case. ---> Tooironic (talk) 07:08, 6 July 2022 (UTC)Reply
These are kind of separable compounds that are not great for testing boundedness. The fact that you can add classifiers to the object (e.g. 跳一支舞) would be enough to say that the object of this "compound" is quite free. — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }07:40, 6 July 2022 (UTC)Reply
@Tooironic: It is unclear to me how you determine independence in Standard Chinese. I know you are an advanced speaker, but I think many of the entries where you have put this tag are not quite accurate. Most words need to be put in a context, so there might be an impression of being bounded. However, that does not mean they are really not used independently. Also, I think "literary" should be checked more carefully. Not all senses that are "only in compounds" are literary. — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }06:17, 6 July 2022 (UTC)Reply
書面語 and 文言文 are quite different. The definitions you labelled on 奶 as literary are not literary in the sense of 文言文. I would not label 書面語 as literary. — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }06:53, 6 July 2022 (UTC)Reply
Wiktionary has never had one set definition for "literary", and we don't indicate the difference between 書面語 and 文言文 on here. Regardless, we should indicate if a particular sense is high register. That's useful information. ---> Tooironic (talk) 07:08, 6 July 2022 (UTC)Reply
"Formal" is how I would label something that is 書面語 (i.e. something that is in Standard Chinese but only usually written). That should be distinguished from 文言文 (non-白話文). — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }07:22, 6 July 2022 (UTC)Reply
Thank you to you both for bringing this issue to my attention. I will try to be more careful in the future when differentiating register. And, again, if you see any errors in my edits, please correct them. Thank you. ---> Tooironic (talk) 00:35, 7 July 2022 (UTC)Reply
-n -ng Nondifferentiation
Latest comment: 1 year ago6 comments4 people in discussion
I don't think that would be necessary. AFAIK we don't add usage notes for misspellings on the English Wiktionary. Non-Chinese misspell pinyin all the time (well, so do Chinese too). In particular, you see "Xi Jingping" and "Xingjiang" a lot. They would need to be attested though. ---> Tooironic (talk) 11:56, 23 October 2022 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for your reply. See Portugese#Usage_notes for another instance where I have done this. I just feel that a giving the reader an explanation, if there be one, for common misspellings could be a significant aid to the reader. We see that 现代汉语规范词典 goes out of its way to tell its readers about the common pronunciation mistakes that come up. If you can kind of give people a hint about why someone else or why they themselves are having trouble spelling a word, it provides help to the reader that seems in keeping with the "Wiktionary has grown beyond a standard dictionary" Wiktionary:Main_Page feel of Wiktionary. Thanks for your time and work! --Geographyinitiative (talk) 21:12, 23 October 2022 (UTC)Reply
Fair enough. But I feel like you'd be opening a can of worms. There are just so many miswritten/mispoken words of foreign origin in English. It seems like a lot of work to write usage notes for them for little benefit. ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:04, 24 October 2022 (UTC)Reply
IMO this information is more like an etymology than a usage note, but I don't see anything wrong with including it in an entry. I've seen Shenzhen misspelled as Shenzen before. To a non-Chinese speaker it's not obvious why this mistake is common, so if we had an entry for the Shenzen misspelling, an explanation that many southerners have trouble distinguishing the "zh" and "z" sounds would be informative. —Granger (talk·contribs) 21:33, 23 October 2022 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 1 year ago4 comments2 people in discussion
I see that you have been adding this to many entries, but I don't think any of them are VO compounds. What are you thinking of when you're adding these? — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }03:44, 18 April 2023 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 8 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Hello I see that you’ve been adding many technical terms in Chinese (e.g. legal, finance, medical ones)
Could you please label these as {{lb|zh|Mainland China}} where appropriate? Often these terms have different translations in Taiwan and Hong Kong, so the current way you put it is somewhat misleading. – Wpi (talk) 05:57, 13 August 2023 (UTC)Reply