Wiktionary:Etymology scriptorium/2021/December

Hormosira is an algae, described by Endlicher and Meneghini in 1838, from Hormosiraceae family. What is its etymology? "Horm" refers to a rope and "sira" too, in reference, it seems, to the shape of the seaweed. Thanks for your help. Gerardgiraud (talk) 19:40, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

My guess would be Ancient Greek ὅρμος (hórmos, “necklace”), since the plant is also known as Neptune's necklace. DJ K-Çel (contribs ~ talk) 01:44, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

OK @Djkcel: for the fist part. Is the second part could be Ancient Greek εἴρω (eírō, “fasten together”), referring to algae resembling necklaces tied together? Gerardgiraud (talk) 15:01, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Unlikely, because the nominative singular -s almost never gets included when compounds are made. So this is most likely to be hormo- + sira. The second could be σειρά (seirá, “cord, rope”), making this alga a "necklace cord". —Mahāgaja · talk 15:42, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

A Contribution to the Flora of Australia (1867): “It derives its name from hormos a necklace, and sira a chain, as it consists of a series of inflated internodes, similar in character to vesicles.” J3133 (talk) 15:46, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

σειρά (seirá) can also mean 'chain', though it's usually more 'rope' or 'cord', so that must be what is meant. —Mahāgaja · talk 17:34, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for these informations and this source. Gerardgiraud (talk) 17:45, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Doesn't the root *twerH- ring a few alarm bells? Regardles of the remarkable coincidence that we would have hormo < *ser-(?)- + seira < *twerH-, which I must ignore, the notion of palatization in pre-Greek terms according to Beekes should come to mind. In addition it does look a loot like the root mentioned at queer, and chance of Thorn-clusters seems high. Third of all, a mythical connection with Neptune is all the more reason to suspect Pelasgians, for lack of a better identifier. In sum, the surface analysis alone cannot carry conviction. ApisAzuli (talk) 22:00, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

@ApisAzuli No, because this is a taxonomic name that Stephan Endlicher included in a volume of the Latin botanical work Genera Plantarum that he published in 1836. He obviously knew Ancient Greek, but there weren't a lot of Pelasgians around at the time he made this word up.

Here is the page in question. It's presented as some kind of subdivision of the genus Cystoseira, and includes Latin monilis, so you have an Ancient-Greek-based name ending in seira/σειρά (seirá) right next to a Latin translation of Ancient Greek ὅρμος (hórmos). We can't read the mind of someone who's been dead for over 170 years, but it's very suggestive. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:51, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

@Chuck Entz: That's good to know that I can actually ignore the compound. I took the time to investigate the matter a little, and I still don't see the vowel change nor overwhelming evidence for the affrication. Which is to say, I did not have anything specidic in mind with my comment. The funniest part:

*tewk- shows no Greek reflex but refers (possibly) to *(s)tewk-, where *s- is exhibited exactly nowhere (what?). It is grouped with other forms under the unproven assumption of root extensions under *(s)tew- where Greek reflects *(s)tewg- with στ- but *(s)tewp- once with τ-, δ-, and epic -γ-δ- (wha-waht???).

For reference: Beekes (Palatalized Consonants in Pre-Greek, in: FS Kortlandt, 2008). Refering to Palmer (The Interpretation of Mycenaean Greek Texts, 1963) with regard to "tʸ" adduces "well-known cases like τεῦτλον - σεῦτλον and τῦκον - σῦκον" (2008: 52), sv. σῦκον. If I understand correctly, he takes vexilation of -σσ- with dental clusters as tell-tale signs of pre-Greek influence, but "The analysis of these variations is not easy why exactly s or t are involved in the given variation" (EDG, 2009, pg. XXV) eg. ιξαλοσ, ισσέλα, ιτθέλα, `billy-goatʼ, assuming a cluster *-ktʸ-al- (2008: 48) or an initial *sʸ for σιαγον `jawʼ (2008: 52). In this view,I suppose that σάλος should remind of θάλασσα vel sim. "Everyone agrees that θάλασσα is Pre-Greek (i.e. not IE)" (@AlexB. over the Latin Stackexchanfe where Latin and Greek are treated one and the same). ApisAzuli (talk) 22:36, 3 December 2021 (UTC) I need to note that the comparison of salos "earthquake" only makes sense with a further comparison to Turkish talaz (“tornado, hurricane”) in mind. The Law of Large Numbers holds, that superficially similar terms for comparison with σειρά "cord" are virtually guaranteed, if you know where to look. ApisAzuli (talk) 00:55, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

In working on my Spanish, I was curious about the etymology of abrigo (“coat”), and found that this is from Latin aprīcus, in turn from aperiō (“to open, uncover”) + -cus (adjective-forming suffix). (Our Latin -cus entry states that this only appends to nouns, but aperiō is clearly a verb -- what gives?) The similarity in form with Aprīlis and the potential for a semantic match as well (with April possibly as the opening of the verdant part of the year?) got me to wondering: if aperiō + -cus → aprīcus, then presumably aperiō + -ilis → Aprīlis.

However, the etymology currently at Aprilis#Latin hazards that this is "erhaps based on Etruscan 𐌀𐌐𐌓𐌖 (apru), from Ancient Greek Ἀφροδίτη (Aphrodítē, “Venus”)."

Is aperiō + -ilis → Aprīlis only an accidental match, and the Ancient-Greek-via-Etruscan derivation is the scholarly consensus view?

Curious, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:29, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Both look far fetched, but thank you for asking - I took a peek at Ἀφροδίτη#Ancient Greek which gives better references.

Zezen (talk) 09:03, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

De Vaan does not derive apricus from aperiō, but refers to Nussbaum who posits derivation from a Proto-Italic noun ^✽ap(e)ri- “openness”, from ^✽ap(o), whence also ab; the precise relation to the verb is not further detailed. For aprilis, de Vaan observes that this was the second month of the Roman calendar, and suggests a connection with ab.  --Lambiam 12:04, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you both, @Zezen and @Lambiam. Sounds like both entries aprīcus and Aprīlis might be in need of updating. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 20:07, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

PS: If Aprīlis derives from ab but not from ap(e)ri-, any ideas where the medial "r" comes from, and whether the end is the same as suffix -ilis? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 20:09, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

De Vaan writes: “This could reflect the same preform ^✽ap(e)ri- ‘openness’ as posited s.v. aprīcus. The suffix -īlis can be analogical to the months Quintīlis and Sextīlis  .” Presumably, although this is not stated, the verb is also supposed to come from this reconstructed “preform“.  --Lambiam 20:47, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Does abrigo (“coat, covering”) really come from Latin aprīcus (“sunny”) ? Interesting sense development :\ See the etymology at French abri... Leasnam (talk) 20:59, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm fascinated by the etymology given at French abri. The purported derivation "from Old French abri (“a place where one is sheltered from the elements or harm”), from abrier (“to cover”), itself probably from Latin apricor (“sunbathe”), from apricus (“sunny”)" has a bizarre semantic jump there in the shift from Latin to Old French -- how on earth would "sunbathe" wind up becoming "to cover, to take shelter"?

The etymology at French abri continues: "or less likely from a Late Latin abrigō (“to cover, shelter”), from a- + brigō, from Frankish *berīhan (“to cover, protect”)..." Why is this latter theory "less likely"? The semantics seem much more sensible, and the phonology appears to be a clean match.

FWIW, if we can clear up these oddities in the French etymology, the etymology for Spanish abrigo could wind up being much more straightforward.

Also FWIW, the etym at Spanish abrigar includes more detail than at Spanish abrigo. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 00:00, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

I agree 100%. Someone has gone in an added the "itself probably from Latin apricor (“sunbathe”), from apricus (“sunny”)" and also the "more likely/less likely" conclusions to what used to be a sound etymology, but they seem to have gotten the conclusions backwards. Also, now the French form has to suddenly be borrowed from a southern Romance language in order for it all to make sense...regardless, the descendant senses of "protect, harbour, provide refuge, etc." in no way come from a word meaning "sunny, sunbathe" no matter how much anyone wishes them to be. I'm about to go in and trash all of it. Leasnam (talk) 22:58, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Another Spanish-inspired query.

I'm most accustomed to hearing the term nibs used in reference to playing cards, usually about the jack, and by extension, to anyone who is important or self-important.

I stumbled across Spanish naipe (“playing card”) today, which apparently derives "from Arabic نَائِب (nāʔib, “deputy”), the second-highest court card in the Mamluk deck". The potential overlap between the Arabic نَائِب (nāʔib) and English nibs led me to nibs#Etymology_2, but we have nothing there. Merriam-Webster's entry also has no etymology.

Can anyone shed some light on this? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:43, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

From Greek, indeed? See my Talk:strzyga

Zezen (talk) 08:59, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

I added a source to support that, at least. DJ K-Çel (contribs ~ talk) 08:06, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the update. However, as we can see:

1. ^ Kolberg, Oskar (1882). The People. Their Customs, Way of Life, Language... 15. Kraków: Uniwersytet Jagielloński. p. 24.

so as I had written there - it is close to folk etymology, given the year etc.

Let me also quickly add Mr Brückner's DOB, just in case:

Aleksander Brückner (Polish pronunciation: ; 29 January 1856 – 24 May 1939) was a Polish scholar...

I thus suggest that we just ignore anything older than, say, the 1990s there for now, to avoid fakelore.

Zezen (talk) 08:19, 4 December 2021 (UTC) 08:17, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

The age of the hypothesis is no hindernis so as long as it is correct. If you think it is incorrect, you should have pointed out why already. Recent publications surely repeat the same idea, so we consider it notable and lemming it anyway. Doubt should be left to the discretion of the reader.

I did not search for either Kolberg or Brückner, but I trust pl.WP's summary is apt:

According to Alexander Brückner's research, the Slavic striga comes directly from the Roman strix (plural striges), a female demon with bird's claws that feeds on blood. In a vague manner, these beliefs, probably through the Balkan peoples, were adopted by the Slavs, overlapping in part with the figures of the phantom and the vampire . (google translated https://pl.m.wikipedia.orghttps://dictious.com/en/Strzyga)

Is it implied that there are Latin language sources using the name? Whether that's really from the owl or a transliteration of something else may be difficult to judge. Naturally one would want corroborating cognates. Rumanian WP however suggests it is chiefly Silesian. de.WP and ru.WP instead talk about Двоедушник and, like en.WP, stress the notion of two hearts and two souls. More over, the various methods of protection layed out here and there sound like a collection from various, possibly unrelated myths. The bird form tangent favours the owl interpretation, of course, so it would be inappropriate to blame Brückner without any evidence to the opposite. ApisAzuli (talk) 14:51, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Dear @ApisAzuli,

Thank you for your extensive reply. Indeed, when I wrote this query (maybe too short), I had found some sources that suggested otherwise, but as I cannot find them that quick now, let me translate a less-than-ideal tip I have quickly (re)found now here:

Można zatem założyć, że obydwa duchy dotarły do Poradni z pogranicza - ukraińsko-polskiego, = It can therefore be assumed that both spirits reached from the Ukrainian-Polish border ... (source)

In our research let us thus continue to avoid Mr Bruckner and post-Bruckner folk etymologies, from plwiki and related, e.g. this interview with a non-specialist or that somewhat fanciful descriptions from ruwiki: а в Верхней — стрыга, если это была женщина, или стрыгун, если это был мужчина. В легендах сообщалось также, что можно украсть у стрыги покойника, которого она ходит пожирать, with Sympathetisch- und Antipathetischer Misch Masch and similar from 1715...(valid as primary sources there in Wikis, but not here in Wiktionary, methinks), or with its direct Greek etymology "proven" with Jan Piotr Dekowski, Strzygi i topieluchy. Opowieści sieradzkie . - Warszawa, 1987 (very likely relying on Bruckner himself) as given as a ref in this ruwiki, and maybe also reflected in this source etc.

My hunch for now is to look at Ukrainian or Russian Стрыг*s e.g. Стрыгин, стрыгою in Демьян etc., using the usual etymological methods, or at least mark it as "unknown, traditionally derived from Greek as per Mr Bruckner", "tbd" etc. there for now.

I am thus curious what you and other multilingual colleagues may come up with, using Derksen and such.

With striga bows here, Zezen (talk) 16:10, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

OK, we have it fixed, without Mr Bruckner. So we can close this one, methinks. Zezen (talk) 16:39, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Ovid's Amores does tell of blood sucking striga, and Plina knew one posessed by witches, by the way. That's too early for a derivation from Dracula, I'm afraid, and further comparison with Ricdin Ricdon and the Rumpelstilzchen, that does fly away away in one version collected by Grimm, would surely remain fruitless. Ironically, the method of protection against Rumpelstiltsken is calling it by its true name! Regardless, as I have already schemed a comparison of Landstreicher and strumpet (assuming Nasal Spirant Law) or stealcung and Stelzbock, you can imagine my surprise at Dutch strompen (“to stalk”). ApisAzuli (talk) 22:09, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

A meta beauty, ApisAzuli! Scheming and stromping is our Game 2. I am planning to copy it onto https://meta.m.wikimedia.orghttps://dictious.com/en/User_talk:Hillbillyholiday_Unfrozen (now much refrozen) for one Lady of the Desk, q.v. Zezen (talk) 01:31, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Notheia, which gave its name to the Notheiaceae family, is an epiphytic algae on Hormosira seaweed mentioned above.
In my etymology dictionary I find Noth meaning bastard or false. But what is false? The name of the species is Notheia anomala, anomala = presenting an anomaly / unusual / abnormal. No explanation in the original description here => Proceedings of the Boston Society of Natural History, 1848-1851, p. 371 : read on line. Any idea? Thanks. Gerardgiraud (talk) 16:28, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

It's true that νόθος (nóthos) is a child born out of wedlock or to parents of unequal social status and that νοθείᾱ (notheíā) is the birth of such a child, but whether that's the origin of this alga's name (and if so, why), I can't say. It is the source of notho- "used to form names of taxonomic ranks of hybrids", but of course this genus of algae isn't a hybrid. —Mahāgaja · talk 19:05, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Given the exact correspondence between the taxonomic name and the transcription of the Greek word νοθείᾱ (notheíā) and the tradition of using such words in taxonomy when possible, it is a very reasonable conclusion that it is the source of the name. What fancy of the namer it may derive from is not immediately obvious, though he may just not have liked the species being an epiphyte. DCDuring (talk) 19:49, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Very funny indeed this proposed reason to explain this name. In any case, thanks for your ingenuity. It is indeed perhaps the way of the author to signify the fact that the alga is an epiphytic, i.e. the illegitimate child of Hormosira "mother" seaweed. Gerardgiraud (talk) 17:25, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

The glyph origin section of 澙 asks "Can this glyph be traced earlier than the Internet era?" by Dokurrat. I'm not sure what this is implying since I think there are very few unicode glyphs that originate after the internet. Was there renewed interest or usage of this glyph due to the internet?

Either way, 舃 appears to better match many historical forms of 舄 so I don't think its usage is surprising. Indeed the Kangxi dictionary entry for 舃 seems to write both 磶 and 潟 with 舃 rather than 舄. (Though unfortunately there isn't a code point for 磶 with 舃 yet). Regardless 澙 seems to see usage, so does that make the glyph origin section unnecessary? ChromeGames (talk) 12:59, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Anything salvageable from OVERLY CAPITALISED bit in the etymology section? Notusbutthem (talk) 13:36, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Yeah the formatting on that second sentence was atrocious and all needed to be thrown out. I created a Proto-Celtic entry for the reconstruction that the Welsh word is likely from and linked to it from sarn. DJ K-Çel (contribs ~ talk) 19:33, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

The page vulgar fraction needs an etymology. Some references that might be helpful:

• David Eugene Smith, 'History Of Mathematics Vol II', page 219: https://archive.org/details/historyofmathema031897mbp/page/218/mode/2up
• The bottom of this page: https://mathshistory.st-andrews.ac.uk/Miller/mathword/v/

This page might also be relevant to the use of the term in the Unicode standard:

• https://www.unicode.org/mail-arch/unicode-ml/Archives-Old/UML017/0483.html

The page common fraction also needs an etymology. The following is partially a hypothesis based on the sources I've provided: The etymology of common fraction is closely related to that of vulgar fraction; vulgar and common generally share the same literal meaning (ordinary, popular, general). Both can be used with a derogatory connotation, though the derogatory sense for "common" has become obsolete, while for "vulgar", the derogatory sense has become the primary definition.

Someone might want to check the sources listed in the footnotes of the references I provided to confirm this hypothesis.

Some cognates (possibly parent terms, possibly descendants) that I came across while looking this up:

• Latin: fractiones vulgares
• French: fraction vulgaire
• Spanish: fracción vulgar, apparently a synonym of fracción común

My apologies if I've made any mistakes here. 2001:18E8:3:1087:F000:0:0:4FE 19:56, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Latin vulgaris does not have the pejorative connotations of its descendants, although, at their earliest attestation dates, the term vulgar and cognates probably did not yet have a strongly pejorative sense either. Here is a use in Latin in a treatise by Jean Fernel from 1528, with the modern sense of a pair of numerals, one on either side of a horizontal bar. At that time, mathematical treatises were rarely written in the vernacular, so it is more than plausible that the Latin term is at the root of these terms. If we may explain vulgar fraction as a calque of Latin fractio vulgaris, then this explanation serves equally well for common fraction.  --Lambiam 06:35, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

I think it is likely that Danish af sted literally means "from/out of the place". Do you agree? Prahlad balaji (talk) 20:43, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

That’s what it says in the definition: “literally out of or from (a) place.” — This unsigned comment was added by Lambiam (talk • contribs) at 05:49, 6 December 2021 (UTC).

Well, it also says that "Particularly, would appreciate an explanation of the sense development." Since I'm not a professional linguist, I just wanted to make sure. Prahlad balaji (talk) 10:27, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

As a Swedish speaker, "off the stead/ place" seems a pretty straightforward sense development to me. Cf. certain senses of go off, get off. Wakuran (talk) 16:31, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks all, it has been added. Prahlad balaji (talk) 18:39, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

That seems fairly unhelpful. The gloss adds nothing that couldn't be gleaned from links in the headword line, and the Norwegian (bokmal or nynorsk?) and Swedish comparison might give the false impression of cognates when they might as well be loans. There is, alas, no case inflection to sted that would warrant reading (from). German native speakers have trouble explaining ab die Post all the same, where case would be expected. On the other hand, with være til stede ("anwesend sein", pons.de, cp. zu(r) Stelle sein, 'be ready', zugegen sein 'be present'), and the verb stede, which sted 2. "imperative" suggests, need compared, cf. auf der Stelle 'on the spot, immediately; now!'. Auf! and Ab! are rather close in this one. Besides this, I wonder if stand-up (comedy) is really about volunteers stepping forward, or originally rather about improv.

The paradigm from *steH- ~ *stel- is just a mess in Germanic. ApisAzuli (talk) 09:39, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

I mean, cp. Sw. Hunden jagades av katten, En. The dog chases after the cat, Ger. Der macht Jagd auf die Katze. Although you could translate it as make chase of. ApisAzuli (talk) 11:55, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

I don't fully understand your last point, but Hunden jagades av katten would be translated as The dog was chased by the cat. Wakuran (talk) 15:40, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

• Your German example is also a bit odd:

Der macht Jagd auf die Katze → literally, "The might(noun?) chase(noun) on the cat" → uncertain meaning? After definite article der, the word "macht" would presumably be Macht (“might, power, strength”, noun). As an alternative parsing, you're missing the head noun Hund (“dog”), and "macht" here is intended to be "makes": Der macht Jagd auf die Katze → "The makes chase on the cat."

Not sure what your digression about case inflection is intended to convey -- Danish doesn't have much case, and there is no dative or ablative for regular nouns that would apply to sted, so there's no grounds for arguing that af (“from”) would cause any inflection of sted that would appear in the phrase af sted. See also w:Danish_language#Nouns. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:45, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

I had indeed missed the head noun but I let it stood because der works as a relative pronoun, an anaphor of identity in scope of the preceding examples.

Old Norse had more cases, so one should hope for an older syntagma.

I mean, if these examples are false friends like aufstehen too, as user, I'd want a bit more information from the entry. I'm assuming that sted has a perfective meaning, more like aufgestanden, "up up!". In particular, I expect it connotes a sense of immediacy, as the example's translation connotes "now". Or, maybe there is middle voice on account of så (which, I guess, might be the part that translates "now" – kom så af sted "Now get going") and above være til stede ("anwesend sein" – 'to be present'), further, remotely similar auf der Stelle (“on the spot; Now!”). However, as I have to doubt this supposition as well, I'm starting to wonder if it should be emmendated to for or afar, seeing first of all ample opportunity comparing Ger. ver- (eg. Verstand "state of mind", verstehen "to get it, understand"), and second of all the fact that the entry currently translates "(from) the place" not "off". @Eirikr:. ApisAzuli (talk) 17:57, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

SAOB mentions an Old West Norse form, af stað. Wakuran (talk) 23:01, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

That doesn't get me any further. So here's one last guess: cp. yfemest (“uppermost, highest”), *ufumistaz, *ufumô, PIE *(s)úp-m̥mo-s, *upó (“under, below”) (huh?), similar to utmost} (probably leveled according to cf. -most), Proto-Indo-Iranian *utˢtamás, Latin usque, etc. where PIE *úd also yields *ud-s, cf. ur. That's Sw. "inte komma ur fläcken", Danish "ikke komme av flekken", German "nicht vom Fleck kommen", Pl. utknąć, "not get any further" (de.WP), Stelle would be synonym to Fleck in this; the idiom exists with aus "out" all the same, "nicht aus ... kommen" – dem T., Trott, Tee, Knick, Pott, Arsch, etc., conversely komm in Bewegung, in die Hufen, Puschen, Tritte, Gänge, etc. "Gityup". More over, aus dem Stegreif basicly means "from the hip, on the spot, spontaniously", as for auf der Stelle. Thence we also find *stremę for stirrup, cp. strapped, as well *reumō (“strap”), idiom. reiß dich am Riemen, reiß dich z'samme (viz. standard German zusammen "together"). Nevertheless, sted remains curious if it should mean "now" as per the translation. Consider perhaps steady, stets und ständig 'always' (viz. immer 'ever'), je 'ever', jetzt 'now'. Finally, see also aft, vart (viz. var-åt), or ἅπτω, ἰάπτω (“to hurry”). With regards to ver- ~ ur-, see also for-, Ger. verflixt und zugenäht (cp. OHG *tiu '*Tiwaz', Gnade 'grace', ie. '*tiu-ginada'?), urst, etc., etc. ApisAzuli (talk) 10:20, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Not standard layout for wiktimology Notusbutthem (talk)

• Fixed —Mahāgaja · talk 12:22, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

  Love you so much Notusbutthem (talk) 12:23, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Etymology "Sexine (from 's' in sculptured, and exine) is the outer sculptered part of the exine." from Erdtman G. 1952. Pollen Morphology and Plant Taxonomy. Angiosperms. Almqvist and Wiksell, Stockholm. — This unsigned comment was added by 2407:7000:8200:2400:D052:5398:B541:EE7C (talk) at 23:28, 6 December 2021 (UTC).

This appears to be a fossil word, but the meaning of the original word is obscure. You might think it comes from the interjection "scat!", but according to the Online Etymology Dictionary, it's actually the opposite: the interjection comes from the phrase. A clue is that early forms of the phrase sometimes appear in the form "quicker than 's'cat" or "quicker than s'cat". One theory, which seems very dubious to me, is that it comes from a hiss followed by the word "cat". Can anyone figure out a convincing etymology for this? Nosferattus (talk) 00:48, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

I think the Online Etymology Dictionary is just wrong. The phrase "quicker than scat" (or "quicker 'n scat") seems to pick up popularity around 1890, but several older sources use a more lengthy phrase which might be the predecessor:

• "quicker 'n yer 'd say 'scat!" (1855)
• "quicker 'n you can say 'scat!'" (1857)
• "quicker'n you could say scat" (1864)
• "quicker'n I could say 'scat'" (1877)

So I think "quicker than scat" derives from the interjection "scat" rather than the other way around. Nosferattus (talk) 02:07, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

The alternative etymology for scat is however lacking. The un-assibilated initial would suggest Norse, thus perhaps scatter (“disperse”).

On the other hand, there's a German Idiom: wie /Schmits/ Katze (where Schmidt "smith" may be spelled variously) so I cannot not read it as cat, assuming a fossilized determiner sʼ and that the variants with "quicker than you can say ..." are reinterpretations necessary to make the phrase legible in print, once the fossil is no more understood, inasmuch as quick used to mean "lively". Skandi variants of a similar ilk would be more than welcome. A possibly unrelated theme in a similar sense could be live fast, die young (popularized only recently) as I am beginning to doubt it meant rapid and after only a few years, rather than steadfast and youthful, "having the look or qualities of a young person". ApisAzuli (talk) 11:51, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

To add another perspective, Finnish too has multiple expressions about urgency and saying 'cat', such as ennen kuin ehdit kissaa sanoa (“before you can even say cat”). No etymology is given by any of usual source, according to this answer at kirjastot.fi.

Brittletheories (talk) 17:29, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

The current English page for 'harmonica' states the origin of the word to be German; meanwhile, I was about to make an etymology section for the German page Harmonika, I see that the origin is apparently... English...? According to Duden.de, which is (to my knowledge) considered an authoritative source, the term in English derives from Benjamin Franklin's name given to his glass harmonica. (Which has nothing to do with the modern 'harmonica'.) This little cylical conundrum is quite confusing — does anyone know where the word actually originates? Kiril kovachev (talk) 22:21, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

* Fixed, German borrowing was definitely wrong. DJ K-Çel (contribs ~ talk) 06:15, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Another seeweed genus name Scoresbyella. No Latin or Greek root in this name of an Austalian seaweed, but probably a tribute to a certain Scoresby. But impossible to know which one. Is it William Scoresby or his son Robert Edmund Scoresby-Jackson or William Scoresby Routledge or the biologist Shepherd Scoresby, or another one? I cannot access the original 1987 description for Womersley. Thanks for your help. Gerardgiraud (talk) 09:09, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

@Gerardgiraud: Electronic Flora of South Australia (from The Marine Benthic Flora of Southern Australia by Womersley (1987, part II, page 259)): “It is named after Mr Scoresby A. Shepherd, collector of the type and whose SCUBA collections have contributed greatly to our knowledge of southern Australian deep water algae.” J3133 (talk) 09:29, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks so much @J3133. Gerardgiraud (talk) 12:51, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

The word "agar" derives from Malay and is translated by the same word in English. In French there are two words "agar" and "gelée" i.e. something like "jelly". Three words seem to share this same root:

• the historical toponym Agarum,
• the seeweed genus Agarum
• and some vernacular names of mushroom Agaric genus Agaricus.

But in fact, do these 3 terms really have the same etymology? Gerardgiraud (talk) 13:52, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

The toponym is also attested with a /k/ as "Akarum", which is probably the earlier variant. I don't know about the history of Malay, maybe agar originally had a /k/, but there's almost no possibility of Malayo-Polynesian languages being spoken as far west as Agarum, anyway. Some have tried to trace the name to Sumerian or Old South Arabian, though.

The fungus is probably not related to the toponym or the Malay word either. It's said to derive from Agaria, a place in Sarmatia, which means it might have some sort of Indo-Iranian etymon, I think.

As for the seaweed, I can't read its original description (Dumortier 1822), but it may be named after the fungus! airy—zero (talk) 14:40, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Our etymology for agarwood is agar + wood. Any thoughts on how this connects to any of the senses of agar or any of the other terms? DCDuring (talk) 16:52, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

That's likely from Sanskrit अगुरु (aguru) (or a descendant). See w:Agarwood#Etymology for names in other languages. 70.175.192.217 17:10, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

This looks like a colonial-era loan from Hindi अगर (agar, “agarwood”) or similar. Google Ngrams gives the first attestations around the late 19th century in books on India. I'll add it to the entry :-) airy—zero (talk) 17:15, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

It is worth noting that aloe is probably from the same ultimate Dravidian root. 70.175.192.217 23:48, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Indeed @Airy-zero Agaricus, the fungus, dates from Linnaeus 1753. Much earlier than the alga Agarum.

Here is what A. de Théis wrote in 1810 here: "As most of these plants grow in Greece it is believed that the name of agaric does not express the place where they were found but the usual use made of them by the inhabitants of Agarie. The Sarmatians have always eaten a great number of species of mushrooms even of those among us which are reputed to be poisonous ". Gerardgiraud (talk) 18:03, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

In this web site : Agarum, CFB Phycokey is said :

"Name derivation: Agarum : L. agari= agar, an old word for mushroom or a type of fungus; also algal gelatin (Malay) "

It looks like you were right @Airy-zero

But it is not said why an alga is related to a fungus Gerardgiraud (talk) 19:48, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

I don't think it has to be related per se, just perceived as similar. Wakuran (talk) 22:59, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

I wouldn't rely much on the Phycokey etymology.

It seems that the name Agarum was used about "sea grasses" by G. E. Rumpf et al. in Herbarium amboinense (ie, present-day Indonesia), published only in 1741, but the writing of which was completed in 1690. This influential pre-Linnean work would have been known to Dumortier (A. clathratum, 1822, cool waters), Postels and Ruprecht (A. pertusum and A. turneri, 1840, found in near-Arctic waters), and Bachelot (A. asiaticum). Rumpf used the name for other species, notably A. marinum, of which he says the Malay name is Agar agar cupan, but also A. secumdum, A. funiculare, A. lactucarium, and A. corticosum. I haven't determined what the current names of all these species are, but they seem unlikely to be the cool/cold water species now in Agarum. DCDuring (talk) 01:54, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Agar (the jelly-like substance) is obtained from some species of algae. According to the Malay Wikipedia, the name of the substance stems from the Malay name agar-agar for these algae. Apparently, Rumpf also named his Ambonese sea grasses after this Malay name, like A. marinum being named after Malay agar agar cupan. He may have reused this generic name for sea grasses not called agar-agar in the local vernacular. (The dominant Ambonese language is a Malay-based creole.) Later marine biologists may have hijacked the name for their own unrelated cold water species, possibly even unaware of its etymon.  --Lambiam 17:54, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Until there was taxonomic description, placement, and circumscription that passed 19th-century taxonomic muster taxonomic names were volatile. It has happened that genera have been emptied of most of their species, including even the type species, so that the nature of the genus is almost completely changed. The greater use of molecular-based, rather than morphology-based, characterization of genera is causing similar phenomena now. I had hoped to be able to find the modern names for Rumpf's Agarum species and the times they were transferred to other genera, but I have not yet found a source. DCDuring (talk) 18:47, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

All these hypotheses seem to definitively separate the etymologies of Agaric / Agaricus (the fungus) from Agarum (the seaweed). It would be a coincidence of quasi-homonymous names. Gerardgiraud (talk) 18:37, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

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I doubt that he felt he was establishing a new name rather than using a long-established pre-Linnaean one. He is associated with Agarum because he came up with a good characterization of the genus and published it, not because he invented the name. As lexicographers rather than taxonomists we don't follow the naming system of the Codes to determine where names come from, especially in the cases of the older names. DCDuring (talk) 18:54, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

What I found looking at Dumortier's 1822 work was that:

1. He was familiar with the work of Rumpf/Rumphius
2. That he populated the genus with three species, referring to Linnaeus for the genus.

Linnaeus (General System, v. 2) refers to Gmelin, who, among the half-dozen Gmelin's must be Samuel Gottlieb Gmelin who authored Historia Fucorum.

Gmelin describes "Fucus Agarum", "Fucus Clathrus" (probably either Agarum clathrus or A. clathrus, and "Fucus Bracteartus" (referring to Rumph's "Agarum secundum"). He places many species in his "Septimus Order" "Agara".

From all this I conclude that my hypothesis was correct: that there was no reason for Dumortier to have any reason to think he was coining the name rather than using one well known among those who cared about seaweed taxonomy. DCDuring (talk) 19:32, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Moreover @DCDuring, knowing that "Agar agar" comes from red algaes, it is interesting to note that 13 years before the name of Dumortier, in 1809, Link (Heinrich Friedrich Link) named Agarum a red algae. See here => GBIF-Agarum After that :

1/ In 1822 the name was given to the "brown Agarum" by Dumortier

2/ In 1843 the "red Agarum" was renamed Phycodrys (a red algae) by Kützing. Gerardgiraud (talk) 14:13, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

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It would really be nice to know where Malay agar came from, when, and whether it had other meanings in Malay. We know it is from well before 1690, at least where Rumph was operating. We say it means "agar#English". Were the people of southeast Asia and Indonesia making some gelatinous stuff from seaweed before the Japanese (folkloric?) discovery/invention of agar in the mid-17th(?) century? The early Japanese method of agar production involved freezing a seaweed jelly, presumably a method not practical in the tropics.

“agar-agar”, in The Century Dictionary , New York, N.Y.: The Century Co., 1911, →OCLC. has "The native name of Ceylon moss or Bengal isinglass, consisting of dried seaweed of several species, such as Gracillaria lichenoides, Euchema spinosum , etc. It is much used in the East for soups and jellies. Also called agal-agal. See gelose."

This raises the possibility that agar agar has origins in India, perhaps a connection with agarwood/agalloch.

The Agardhs (father and son) wrote a famous work on algae. Was this a coincidence? I think not. ;-) DCDuring (talk) 15:52, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

There's a fairly detailed discussion by Paul Silva (Nomenclatural remarks on Agarum, Jpn. J. Phycol. 39: 217-221, 1991) => here that shows how convoluted the history of the algal name is. It started with Georg Eberhard Rumphius and his Herbarium Amboinense, with the explanation for the name Agarum on page 181 (not 180 pace Silva) here.In 1768 Samuel Gottlieb Gmelin published a species called Fucus agarum in his Historia Fucorum (description and illustration). In 1809, Johann Heinrich Friedrich Link published a description of a genus he named Agarum, but it was completely unrelated to the modern genus aside from the name, which he probably got from Rumphius, and the fact that it referred to algae. Then in 1822, Barthélemy Charles Joseph Dumortier published the modern genus by briefly mentioning here that three species that were then considered to belong to Laminaria (published by Agardh) belonged to Agarum because they shared a particular feature not common to the rest of the former genus.

In 1822, Jean Baptiste Bory de Saint-Vincent published an article that asserted that Link's Agarum really belonged to another genus. In 1826, he published a description of his own Agarum, which coincidentally covered exactly the same thing as Dumortier's Agarum. Bory de Saint-Vincent's version was the one used in the literature for over a century and a formal decision was made in 1954 to conserve it over the Link version (merging one taxon with another doesn't invalidate the original description of the name, so Bory de Saint-Vincent's Agarum was itself invalid according to the rules).

Paul Silva pointed out that Bory de Saint-Vincent's type species had already been named by Dumortier in 1822, so the taxonomic rules dictated that Dumortier's name, which used Dumortier's version of Agarum, was the correct one. Having the type species for a genus published 4 years before the publication of the genus- but using the same generic name- was confusing. Silva said that a proposal would be submitted to conserve Dumortier's Agarum instead of Bory de Saint-Vincent's Agarum would be submitted. All the current sources list Dumortier as the author of the genus, so this must have been done.

As for Agaricus, this is an ancient Latin name borrowed from Greek, so Linnaeus didn't invent it. As mentioned above, it apparently comes from the Sarmatian place name, Agaria. Pedanius Dioscorides used it in his 1st-century work De materia medica, though it's not completely clear what it referred to (there were probably multiple things referred to by the name). For instance, here he compares its root to that of silphium, which would be very odd for a fungus. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:34, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Nice demonstration, I simply corrected 1922 to 1822. But since Dumortier did not describe "his" Agarum as it is the custom - he simply named a brown algae Agarum, and in 1843 the former red Agarum became a Phycodrys -, that does not tell us if the word Agarum himself; which designates first a red algae and after a brown algae; comes, or not, from the Malaysian word Agar. It would be necessary to have access to the oldest nomination and to know what justified this name. Perhaps the work of Rumpf et al. Herbarium amboinense(1690 or 1741) previousely mentionned. Gerardgiraud (talk) 22:48, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

This work: Drew et al. An interpretation of Rumphius's Herbarium amboinense, 1917 ==> read on line does tell us anything about that. Gerardgiraud (talk) 23:15, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Malay agar-agar originally refers to the algae, and only secondarily to the food extracted from it. It is related to Javanese ager-ager/ager, Sundanese ager. The oldest attestation is in Old Javanese (OJv), where agěr-agěr (ě = ) appears in texts from the Majapahit era and denotes some kind of sea weed ("Sphaerococcus lichenoides" per Zoetmulder in Old Javanese-English Dictionary). The schwa in the final syllable is original, while a in Malay agar is the result of the merger of *a and *ə in the final syllable in Malay. Note that *ə is a robust proto-phoneme in Austronesian languages, and not the product of vowel reduction (at least not in the ultima and penultima). The deeper etymology of OJv agěr-agěr is unknown (but certainly not traceable to agal-agal or agalloch). The corresponding forms in Malay in Sundanese are either cognate, or borrowed from OJv. –Austronesier (talk) 12:35, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks @Austronesier for so much learning about Old Javanese and Malay Agar.

And sorry @Chuck Entz I did'nt red Nomenclatural remarks on Agarum you speak to previously. This paper fully clarifies the origin of the genus Agarum Gerardgiraud (talk) 13:44, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

From Japanese 裏番組? 恨国党非蠢即坏 (talk) 03:03, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Probably not, as explained in the edit summary. Perhaps a pseudo-Japonism inspired by words such as https://dic.pixiv.net/a/虹裏 (ふたば☆ちゃんねるには複数の掲示板が存在するが、当該掲示板において基本的に『裏』は「ある程度の板違いも認める」「少しばかりのアダルトOK」などの意味が存在しているらしく) and 裏垢. —Fish bowl (talk) 05:34, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

@Fish bowl: But these words did not enter Chinese. A Chinese slang is unlikely to be inspired by words that did not enter Chinese. 恨国党非蠢即坏 (talk) 00:14, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

@恨国党非蠢即坏: It's not entirely impossible. waifu and husbando are fake Japlish; the Japanese word for waifu is 嫁. —Fish bowl (talk) 00:23, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

@Fish bowl: wife and husband were already in English when they were made slangs, while 虹裏 and 裏垢 are never Chinese words. 恨国党非蠢即坏 (talk) 00:26, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

裏番組　竞争节目

裏番組　同一时间带播出的别的节目；竞争节目

簡体字：表番／肉番／里番 ¶ 繁体字：表番／肉番／裏番（「裏」は「裡」とも書く） ¶ 意味：健全な番組／お色気番組／アダルト向け番組

—Fish bowl (talk) 00:31, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Japanese 表番組 is a marginal, uncommon word. —Fish bowl (talk) 00:34, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

This has gotta be borrowed from Spanish Cayo Hueso (“Bone Cay”), right? — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 06:07, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

And adapted by folk etymology, of course. But you must be right; if it were simply named for being the westernmost (inhabited) of the Florida Keys, it would be called West Key, not Key West. —Mahāgaja · talk 07:32, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Corrected accordingly. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 15:58, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Especially since, further west there are still the Marquesas Keys. Gerardgiraud (talk) 18:21, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

The Russian entry for утка (utka) currently says that it derives from Old East Slavic уты (uty), but does nothing to explain the -ка at the end. Could the word утка in Russian possibly have a diminutive suffix -ка (-ka) or be derived from Proto-Slavic *ǫtъka, which does explain the ending? Prahlad balaji (talk) 14:59, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, of course. Fixing. —Mahāgaja · talk 17:08, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

This has been removed from the list of cognates of Herr with the reasoning that this Swedish word seems to be borrowed from Old High German. This is what herre says too, but it seems SAOB disagrees. I realize our entry on motsvarande is not trustworthy since it's partly not even real English, but as far as i can tell this word does mean "corresponding to", so according to SAOB, herre is borrowed from Old Saxon but not from Old High German like we claim:

fsv. härra, härre, liksom d. herre, isl. herra, herri, feng. herra, av fsax. herro, äldre hērro, motsv. fht. hĕrro, varav mht. herre, t. herr (jfr äv. ffris. hēra, holl. heer); eg. komp. av fsax. o. fht. hēr, adj., upphöjd, förnäm m. m., urspr.: grå(hårig), gammal, motsv. isl. hárr, gråhårig, feng. hār, eng. hoar(y), grå. Med avs. på bet.-utvecklingen jfr fr. seigneur, sieur, sire, it. signore, span. señor osv., av lat. senior, komp. till senex, gammal, ävensom lat. dominus.

Could someone please translate the important parts of this SAOB etymology so i can use the translation as a model to understand other SAOB etymologies and their annoying and unnecessary abbreviations? --Espoo (talk) 00:57, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

While we're waiting for someone who actually speaks Swedish, I thought I would try my hand at expanding all the abbreviations just to see if I could do it. I copied this into Google Translate, then looked at the translation tables of terms that I would expect to see in such an etymology, with Google Translate serving as confirmation as to whether I was anywhere near correct. My best guess:

• fornsvenska härra, härre, liksom danska herre, isländska herra, herri, fornengliska herra, av fornsaxiska herro, äldre hērro, motsvarande fornhögtyska hĕrro, varav middelhögtyska herre, tyska herr (jämför även fornfriska hēra, hollandska heer); egentligen komparativ av fornsaxiska och fornhögtyska hēr, adjektiv, upphöjd, förnäm med mera, ursprunglig grå(hårig), gammal, motsvarande isländska hárr, gråhårig, fornengliska hār, engliska hoar(y), grå. Med avs. på beteckning-utvecklingen jämför franska seigneur, sieur, sire, italienska signore, spanska señor och så vidare, av latinska senior, komparativ till senex, gammal, ävensom latinska dominus.
• Translation:Old Swedish härra, härre, as well asDanish herre Icelandic herra, herri, Old English herra, from(?) Old Saxon herro, older hērro, compare Old High German hĕrro, (?) Middle High German herre, German Herr (cf. also Old Frisian hēra, Dutch heer); actually comparative of Old Saxon and Old High German hēr, adjective, august, distinguished, etc., originally gray (-haired), old, corresponding to Icelandic hárr, grayhaired, Old English hār, Engish hoar(y), gray. With (?) sense-development compare French seigneur, sieur, sire, Italian signore, Spanish señor, etc., from Latin senior, comparative of senex, old, even Latin dominus.

As you can see, most of the abbreviations aren't as hard as they look. Once you know about f- (“Old”), t. (“German”) m.m./osv.=etc. and jfr. (“cf.”), the rest is mostly just filling in the blanks Chuck Entz (talk) 03:45, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

The text says "herre" is a borrowing from Old Saxon, the precursor of Middle Low German. (In Scandinavian contexts, Old Saxon and Middle Low German are generally conflated, since it's basically the same language/ dialectal area during different periods). Should I elaborate? Wakuran (talk) 22:47, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

The English entry says it is a doublet of friction, but the French entry says it is unrelated to friction. Which one is right? This, that and the other (talk) 08:27, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

The etymology provided by Le Trésor sketches the same story as given here in the French section: the Classical Latin noun frictiō from fricō (“I rub”) +‎ -tiō – whence French friction – has a Vulgar Latin homonym, this time best explained as arising from frīgeō (“I am cold”) +‎ -tiō, which is the alleged etymon of frisson. This fits in with the difference in meanings in current French.  --Lambiam 21:30, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Good info. I'll remove the "doublet" template from the English entries, then. This, that and the other (talk) 10:33, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

RFV of the etymology.

This has been the subject of an edit war between @Svartava2 and @IMPNFHU, with the latter asserting that it's a borrowing from Punjabi and the former defending the status quo saying that it's inherited. IMPNFHU has been advancing a definite POV in the etymologies (removing any references to Old Punjabi, for instance) and answering with assertions devoid of any actual evidence. Of course, that doesn't mean they're wrong- which is why I'm bringing it up here. Chuck Entz (talk) 16:49, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

@Kutchkutch. Thoughts? -- 𝓑𝓱𝓪𝓰𝓪𝓭𝓪𝓽𝓽𝓪^{(𝓽𝓪𝓵𝓴)} 03:03, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

@IMPNFHU, Chuck Entz, Kutchkutch, Bhagadatta: The inheritance etymology is well-sourced, (H. piu) which is considered a good reliable source for Indo-Aryan inherited words, gives pitā as the etymon, which is nothing but the nominative singular of पितृ. The same etymology is also in , dictionary of अपभ्रंश (apabhraṃśa, “corrupted form of a word”) lexicon. But its used mostly by Punjabi speakers in Hindi, which is why I didn't revert it again; it requires more attention. Alternatively, we could put the inherited etymology and add "possibly through Punjabi". —Svārtava 03:16, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

@Bhagadatta, IMPNFHU, Svartava2: Since the inheritance etymology is well-sourced, it should be mentioned. If the Punjabi usage is directly from Punjabi, it could be the result of what AryamanA explained at: Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2020/September#Northwestern_Indo-Aryan.

I'm afraid the tree model is too simplistic for IA in general...On a purely lexical basis, as examined from the view of lexicostatics, Kogan (2016) finds Punjabi to be closest to Hindi...Hindi itself, as we know, is a highly mixed language that developed in Delhi from contact between many languages in a political centre, as reflected in its early forms such as Sadhukkadi, in which case even it is not a purely Central IA language and probably is highly influenced by other Central (Braj, Haryanvi), Northwest (Punjabi)...lects of IA

in which case there should be more such examples. Kutchkutch (talk) 12:40, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm at a loss as to how we get from Ancient Greek ἀναγκαῖον (anankaîon) to Latin anangeon, which appears in a number of Renaissance rhetoric texts. Classical Latin borrowed the same Greek term (with a different sense) as anancaeum, which I can understand. But where does the -ge- in anangeon come from? My best theory is that the Renaissance writers were influenced by the Byzantine pronunciation /a.naɲˈɟe.os/ given at ἀναγκαῖος (anankaîos), but that assumes that they were aware of how contemporary Greek speakers were pronouncing the language. The fact that all these writers arrived at the same spelling seems rather miraculous in that context. This, that and the other (talk) 05:02, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

The earliest use I saw is in the index of a 1516 edition of Quintilian's Institutio Oratoria, annotated by Badius. The text itself uses the spelling anagkeon in the margin where the annotating text has ἀναγκαῖομ (sic). In De Elocutione Oratoria (1592) Ludovico Carboni used the spelling anangæon, although he used anangeon in his 1595 Divinis orator. The Romanization ng for γκ remains mysterious; perhaps someone (the compiler of the 1516 index?) made this mistake, and others just copied it.  --Lambiam 10:36, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

I like your thinking. I summarised your theory in the entry, hopefully not at too great length. I really should have given you credit in the edit summary - sorry about that! This, that and the other (talk) 08:48, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

No needed on that ἀναγκαῖον, it’s a nu, not a mu. Nu used to look like that in Byzantine greek minuscule script, and the form survived in other Greek scripts for a long time. It’s still distinct from mu in lacking a final leg. I’ll change it in the entry. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 18:47, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Edit: As an aside, I don’t see why Renaissance writers would be unfamiliar with contemporary Greek pronunciation. After all, Greek refugees from the fall of Constantinople bringing their classics west were one of the main spurs behind Renaissance humanism in the first place! It may be the spelling with -ng- was intentional, as a fairly straightforward rendering of the Greek speech of the time. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 19:00, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Could Sanskrit श्रवण (śravaṇa) possibly be from the root श्रु (śru)? Prahlad balaji (talk) 16:05, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Etymology 2, absolutely. Etymology 1, not so clear. —Mahāgaja · talk 17:05, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Yeah everyone knows Etyl 2 is from श्रु. As for Etyl 1, I'm quite sure (without bothering to look it up in Monier) that it's related to श्रोण (śroṇa) meaning the same. -- 𝓑𝓱𝓪𝓰𝓪𝓭𝓪𝓽𝓽𝓪^{(𝓽𝓪𝓵𝓴)} 09:21, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

I don't know what would be the compounding form of a neuter an-stem, but it would be needed to reconstruct a proto-form of the cognates of earring (it has extensive West Germanic cognates, in addition to some North Germanic cognates). — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 18:46, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

I would expect that there would be an '-n-' or at least an '-a-' from the neuter n-stem, but the OHG simply has ōrring (cf. OSX ōrhring, ANG ēarhring). I would nevertheless reconstruct it as Proto-West Germanic *auʀahring, and chalk it up to influence from the following 'r' sound (*auʀahring > *auʀhring > descendants). I could find no Old Norse parallel, so I imagine the Scandinavian terms (DA ørering, SV örring) are borrowings. Leasnam (talk) 21:55, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

@Leasnam: Scanning through the PWG compounds we have already reconstructed, the treatment of the linking vowels in compounds seems to act on a spectrum. Old High German preserved the linking vowel most often, while Old English deleted it most often. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 00:25, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, OHG not only preserves the linking vowel, but will also add one where there originally wasn't one, making the lack of one even more notable. Thanks for correcting the gender, I truly fat-fingered that 'n' for an 'm' :} Leasnam (talk) 02:20, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

@Mellohi!: While that might be correct in general, and it still is, there is no evidence of an Old High German earring that I'm aware of. Grimm lists "mhd. ôrrinc, ôrinc, inauris (Lexer 2, 168 f.), ..." and by the way variants like "ohrenring". This does approve at least of the assimilation, although (de.WT) disagrees and maintains that it does have to be not univerbed, reasonably so as the individual morphemes are still legitimate. Wondering whether Ohr- has an unexpectedly different origin, at least Lat. inauris if not Latvian auskars or indeed from *wo through Norse oo, might be besides the point if the "extended nazalized" *-ngʰ- in the stem remains poorly understood. ApisAzuli (talk) 10:42, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

@פֿינצטערניש, Wikitiki89, Svenji, NordaVento, Metaknowledge, Lingo Bingo Dingo, Johanna-Hypatia, Castillerian Any ideas? I can't find a suitable-looking word in Germanic, Slavic or Semitic to be the ancestor of this. —Mahāgaja · talk 09:15, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Also not in any other language (Baltic, ...). Was there perhaps a dramatic semantic shift? If we accept the possibility, Ukrainian/Russian горн (gorn) may be a candidate. Or maybe from a shortening of Bulgarian горен кат (goren kat, “upper storey”)? But Yiddish terms are unlikely to be derived from Bulgarian. BTW, the word גאָרן can also be an inflected form of גאָר (gor), but I don’t think there is a relationship.  --Lambiam 10:19, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

More like garderobe, warderobe, Waren-Haus? Otherwise some rural words for rural architecture in the central east Middle High German dialects might yield. I was thinking of haystacks in barns, first, but the closest I could find would be schweizerdeutsch Schüür for ModHG Scheune (barn, de.WP). I thought my country grammar family refers to the second floor in the barn as Tenne although this is either a threshing floor, which may be inside, or in Austrian it denotes the whole barn. Although these comparisons are untennable for gorn, they go to show how variable the jargon may be per region. ApisAzuli (talk)

If you think “Tenne” has to do with storeys then it is of course Hebrew גורן / גֹּרֶן (gṓren, “threshing-floor”). I wonder on the other hand whether for East Slavic горн (gorn, “fireplace”) one has to consider drawers in or compartments beside ovens: Jews would have particular uses for that, keeping warm food when making fire was not allowed or the like. Fay Freak (talk) 11:32, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Semantically, I really like גורן / גֹּרֶן (gṓren, “threshing-floor”). It's a little problematic phonologically as Hebrew holam normally gets borrowed as /ɔɪ̯/ in Yiddish, so we'd expect *גוירן (goyrn). But maybe there's a way to finesse that. Maybe there was a conflation of the Hebrew 'threshing floor' word with the Slavic 'fireplace' word? —Mahāgaja · talk 11:52, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Though the proposed derivation from גורן \ גֹּרֶן works reasonably well semantically, how often do Hebrew words in Yiddish change their spelling? In this case, the Hebrew spelling of /o/ with vav being replaced by the Yiddish spelling of with aleph. Johanna-Hypatia (talk) 19:25, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

There are a few cases of Hebrew loanwords being spelled phonetically rather than imitating the Hebrew spelling, such as טרייף (treyf) and קלעזמער (klezmer). In this case, if גאָרן (gorn, “floor, story”) is a loanword from גורן (“threshing floor”), perhaps the semantic shift was enough for people to forget that it was a Hebrew word, so it got spelled phonetically. —Mahāgaja · talk 08:21, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

This origin doesn't hold phonetically. If it was from Hebrew גורן, it should have been גוירן (goyrn). --WikiTiki89 19:54, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

See here for the origin. Vahag (talk) 12:03, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Excellent find, thank you! —Mahāgaja · talk 12:32, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

We have the Gaden mentioned by Weinreich. Vahag (talk) 12:54, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I know this word in the form Gadem n from my local Middle Low German, but rhotacism of intervocalic /d/ in German dialects as in US English has not been related to me before, in the sources for specific dialects: So we must write it is a borrowing from Bavarian or Rhine Franconian or local standard Early New High German—it has not been told where this Yiddish is used, but apparently it is, originally at least, southern Western Yiddish, so @Mahagaja’s “cognate” is not true. Of course with the quotes for Garn n and Gadem n in Grimm in the meaning Stockwerk the identity of the word is proven; all to be lemmatized under Gadem n or Gaden n, as Besen or Boden. Fay Freak (talk) 17:11, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm looking at Category:German unadapted borrowings with 35 entries. Is that right? The Duden mentions a few more while concerned with spelling and noting that the growing number of English borrowings is growing too high for the taste of language purists, and I could easily chalk those up as code-switching in a business environment where a minor bilingualism should be expected.

What stands out is that th is completely missing from these round about sixty items. Not only would it be a matter of spelling, if eg. thread is colloquially rendered as "Fred" in forums. tether eg., albeit rare yet difficult to translate might be pronounced * tezzer instead, prompting for an illegitimate spelling pronounciation. Proper nouns do not count as unaddapted borrowing, of course.

So, are there any proper loans with fricative th in German among the growing number of anglicisms? And if not, why not? ApisAzuli (talk) 10:23, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Category:German terms borrowed from English has 960 entries; if the subcat referring specifically to unadapted borrowings is so low, it's probably mostly because people are unaware of {{ubor}} and so haven't been using it. I was unaware of its existence until this moment. —Mahāgaja · talk 11:15, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

I don’t know those distinctions “adapted” and “semi-learned” and all, even knowing the templates. And those English terms in German, are too uninteresting, in an English dictionary, to be entered, relatively to what could be entered. Fay Freak (talk) 11:35, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

"Interesting" isn't a criterion for inclusion. It could be good for a learner to be reassured that Button really does mean “button”, considering that Bodybag doesn't mean “body bag”. —Mahāgaja · talk 11:41, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

It isn’t the criterion, only my breviloquence for the criterion. It could be good, but other things could even more be. The criterion is whether one would like to know what it means or a definition or translation, which interest is to a large extent not there, to some extent even because the words are ad hoc and of no known internal lexicalization. The word “interesting” is abused by many who have nothing to say but not by me. Fay Freak (talk) 11:49, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

This is all beside the point. ApisAzuli should not conclude what is in a language from what is on Wiktionary, unless he specifically knows that a lexical area has been thoroughly covered. And I hinted why it isn’t covered, because the glosses would end up the English words in almost all cases, and it regularly satisfies to have a word entered in one language, particularly under the condition that it it appears manifest that a word has been formed in one language if one encountered it in another. I have defined what dépeçage is in Private International Law, and it will be apt to serve explanation if one comes thither from a text in German or another language, even if no one reassures that it is German; or sometimes someone will be served by an Arabic entry for Persian or even and Ottoman entry to understand something in Arabic. I also note that the example Bodybag Mahāgaja estranges as I have never encountered the word except in remote newspapers, while I know the meaning of a corpse container well, in spite of the fact that I have never been to any supposedly English-speaking country but always in Germany, so this also shews how the idea of words “in a language” is constructed. Fay Freak (talk) 12:03, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Thriller is supposed to have a /θ/ sound, but in practice, it's often assimilated, apparently. I guess English words with /θ/ just aren't that frequent enough to be borrowed to a large extent, and words with /ð/ mostly seem to be words fulfilling grammatical functions and such, being basic words that are unlikely to get borrowed. Wakuran (talk) 14:44, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

I also found Thinktank or Think-Tank. Wakuran (talk) 14:48, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

But of course, assimilating foreign loanwords isn't anything unique for either German or fricative sounds. A German female friend I know pronounced "job" as "chop", so out of context, I first thought she said "shop"... Wakuran (talk) 14:53, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Job is pronounced /dʒɔp/ (the final "b" is devoiced to /p/) but voiceness in German is lighter than in English, so it may sound somewhat like /t͡ʃɔp/ to an untrained ear. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:04, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

With regard to northern and central Germany, voicedness is pretty much the same as in English. (Of course, disregarding final devoicing.) Voiced stops may be partially devoiced in some positions, but that's just as true of English. So there's no difference there. The difference that exists is regional. Namely that in Upper German areas, lenis stops are usually entirely unvoiced. And these speakers do say /t͡ʃɔp/, not just to the untrained ear, but in actual fact. 2.203.201.113 01:33, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Thriller seems to be the example I was looking for.

Schackeline, Zementa, etc. are a running gag, implying that these realisations are common enough for the joke to be understandable.

Incidently, Samantha is one of the nine lonely entries in those categories besides Thriller, Synthesizer, Klathrat, empathogen, Empathie, Edith, Arthur, Alexithymie, and actual aspiration along morpheme boundaries in Penthouse. Of these, the proper and common nouns have regular variants with /t th/, and the scientific terms might be considered neo-Latin instead of English. Empathie was, as far as I know, coined by German philosophers. If thriller should be deemed an outlier, it may be a learned borrowing for some folks inasmuch as it can be associated with written genres, anyway jargon.

The frequency argument might be plausible in a summary overview, and maybe more so if focused on the Germanic stock which is per se less likely to need borrowed. Although thousand entries is far from complete or representative, it gives a fairly comprehensive overview. I just got lost in the categories. ApisAzuli (talk) 18:22, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

I've heard that this name (from the book of Daniel) means "may Bel protect the king", but I've also heard it means "Bel's prince". Any possibility of the latter? Also, a few questions:

1.) A couple of months ago I copied and pasted the cuneiform (𒊩𒆪𒈗𒋀) from Wikipedia into Wiktionary's Belteshazzar, Baltassar, and Balthasar entries. (Maybe I shouldn't have done that without a better source?) Anyway, Wikipedia doesn't cite a source and I am just wondering where this cuneiform comes from? Is it actually attested somewhere, or only a scholarly reconstruction? How certain are we that the name "Belteshazzar" actually comes from 𒊩𒆪𒈗𒋀 and not from some other string of glyphs with similar pronunciation?

2.) I don't know Akkadian so bear with me. Comparing the name Belteshazzar (𒊩𒆪𒈗𒋀) with the similar name Belshazzar (𒂗𒈗𒋀), I see that only the beginning is different (𒎏 in place of 𒂗). I am assuming that 𒆪 is an alternate form of 𒂗 (pronounced 'bel' and means "lord"), whereas the 𒊩 is apparently the feminine suffix (pronounced "t", I guess cognate with Hebrew ת and Egyptian -t, but I guess it gets written before the noun)? So then, I suppose 𒎏 actually means "lady" (this word?)? Why, then, is Belteshazzar interpreted as "may Bel save the king" rather than "may Belit save the king"?

3.) Back to the "Bel's prince" interpretation, what would the cuneiform look like for that? Or is it completely implausible? 73.133.224.40 13:49, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

About "Bel's prince", my Akkadian's a bit rusty but I think it would be something like rubê Bēli(m). Anything with that genitive construction would have to have Bel at the end, so it definitely wouldn't be a possibility for this name. airy—zero (talk) 14:49, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Could this root possibly be from Proto-Indo-European *h₃er-? Most terms from this Sanskrit root seem to be from the Proto-Indo-European root *h₃er-. Prahlad balaji (talk) 19:30, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Could the Danish noun possibly be from the verb, "smile"? Prahlad balaji (talk) 02:54, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

According to this page, yes. Wakuran (talk) 02:56, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

I've been trying to track down the botanical identity of this Chinese green dye, which was very much admired and discussed in 19th-century Europe, but abandoned after synthetic dyes became available (probably Rhamnus globosa, a.k.a. Rhamnus chlorophora or Rhamnus tinctoria). The name is obviously from Chinese, but aside from the hunch that 綠／绿 (lǜ) may be the first part, I have no idea what Chinese term that might be. Pinging people who might know: (Notifying Atitarev, Tooironic, Suzukaze-c, Justinrleung, Mar vin kaiser, Geographyinitiative, RcAlex36, The dog2, Frigoris, 沈澄心, 恨国党非蠢即坏, Michael Ly): Chuck Entz (talk) 04:48, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

I might as well list the Chinese names (complete with toneless pinyin transliterations) given in the Flora of China for the species mentioned in various sources: Rhamnus globosa - 圆叶鼠李 (yuan ye shu li), Rhamnus davurica - 鼠李 (shu li), and Rhamnus utilis - 冻绿 (dong lü) (there's also Rhamnus dahurica, which is probably an error for Rhamnus davurica rather than Rhamnus dahuricus, a synonym for Rhamnus virgata - 帚枝鼠李 (zhou zhi shu li)). Chuck Entz (talk) 05:27, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

My first thought that it might be 綠釉 / 绿釉 (lǜyòu, literally “green glaze”) or 綠油 / 绿油 (literally “green oil”).

google:"lokao" "綠" produces 綠膏 / 绿膏 (literally “green paste”) in a single online dictionary. Nothing else appears for google:"綠膏" "lokao", google books:"綠膏" "lokao", or google scholar:"綠膏" "lokao".

綠膏 also appears in the 1947 US War Department Japanese-English Technical Terms Dictionary as the gloss for Chinese green. google:"chinese green" "綠膏" is similarly desolate.

—Fish bowl (talk) 05:32, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

1968, Lessico universale italiano: lokaó s . m . (OCR) —Fish bowl (talk) 06:11, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

w:et:Lokao→2003, Chinese Medicinal Herbs: RHAMNUS CHLOROPHORUS, Rhamnus tinctorius. BUCKTHORN This is a tree of Chekiang province, called by the natives 綠柴 (Lü-ch'ai). The Chinese call the pigment 綠膏 (Lü-kao) and 綠膠 (Lü-chiao). —Fish bowl (talk) 06:15, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

1906, Bibliotheca Sinica: Dictionnaire Bibliographique Des Ouvrages Relatifs À L'Empire Chinois: Over de bereiding en het gebruik der Groen Chinesche verfst of Lo Kaô (Groene koek).. —Fish bowl (talk) 06:17, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

@Chuck Entz, Fish bowl: Here's some more evidence:

A Chinese-English Dictionary (Giles 1912): 緑膏 a dye-stuff made from the bark of Rhamnus tinctorius, Wallst.; vert de Chine.

植物色素 (孟心如 1945): 鼠李屬植物，尤以紅皮綠膏（Rhamnus Chlorophorus）及白皮綠膏（Rhamnus utilis）兩種，含有極豐富之色素量。此項植物之產地，在我國分佈極廣，自此提得之染料名曰綠膏又名凍綠膠。

中国国民经济史 (罗章龙 2016): 绿色染料为鼠李科植物之皮制成，名曰绿膏。

英汉土木建筑大词典 (1999): lokao 绿膏，绿胶，中国绿

英汉辞典 上 (王同亿 1987): lo·kao ... : 绿膏 由欧亚鼠李属植物（尤其是冻绿 Rhamnus utilis 和圆叶鼠李 R. globosa）提炼而来的绿色燃料——亦称中国绿（Chinese green）

This should be good evidence for 綠膏 being the etymon. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:39, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung Yes. I was already convinced by @Fish bowl's evidence, but this spells it out nicely- though "Rhamnus tinctorius, Wallst." is an error. To start with, Latin rhamnus is feminine, so it would have to be Rhamnus tinctoria. Also, the name Waldstein (Waldst. not Wallst.) published is for a European plant that is supposed to be a synonym for Rhamnus saxatilis subsp. tinctoria Nyman. This reference goes to the trouble of explicitly ruling out that name, so it must be a common error.

Thank you both! Chuck Entz (talk) 00:14, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Bhadriraju Krishnamurti, The Dravidian languages, Cambridge University Press ,2003, ISBN 13: 9780521771115

Indonesian dan translated as English and, I've search trussel Proto-Austronesian dictionary and I still couldn't find coordinating conjunction of and there. Any recommendation on other resources to trace the etymology of this word? Link for references: https://en.wiktionary.orghttps://dictious.com/en/dan#Etymology_1_5 ; https://www.trussel2.com/acd/acd-l_m.htm#Malay . PFeibwlRepaidLaxsarawosBueruegmTwlTwainineqaglassumruhwjraDjajaKrainanthapuhletai (talk) 16:29, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Is it attested in non-Indonesian Malay? A wild guess for an etymon is the Dutch adverb dan, which (like English then) can be used in a conjunction-like way: Eerst zien, dan geloven (“See first, then believe”). The Dutch meaning implies a temporal ordering and only connects clauses, so this potential explanation requires, next to a different part-of-speech role, a generalization of the sense.  --Lambiam 09:41, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Malay dan is also used in Standard Malay outside of the Dutch-influenced sphere, and found in older classical text that show little influence from European languages. I remember that dan is supposed to be an irregular contracted form of dengan (“with”), but can't think of a source right now. –Austronesier (talk) 15:59, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Could Sanskrit वारित (vārita) and वृत्र (vṛtra) be from the root वृ (vṛ)? Prahlad balaji (talk) 17:36, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Chnoospora is a brown alga which gave the name to the family Chnoosporaceae . But unable to get the description of Agardh from 1847 in order to know etymology. Is the name of the genus derived from the Greek Χνόος / chnóos, "down, hair", and σπορα / spora, "seed", literally meaning "fluffy seed"? Thanks for helping. Gerardgiraud (talk) 13:18, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Algae of Australia (2009, Australian Biological Resources Study): “Chnoospora J.Agardh, Öfvers. Förh. Kongl. Svenska Vetensk.-Akad. 4: 7 (1847); from the Greek chnoos (wool) and sporos (a seed); allusion unknown.” J3133 (talk) 13:35, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

@J3133, I finally found the allusion here : Sylloge algarum omnium hucusque cognitarum (1895) : page 464,
since chnoos means "wool" ie "stuffed with wool", it's in reference to "the fertile filaments, densely packed". Gerardgiraud (talk) 13:18, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

The word "Crăciun" has been historically a very disputed etymology. There are two main theories:

• Latin inheritance, which doesn't fit either in semantics or phonetics. No cognates for this meaning in any other Romance language.
• Slavic borrowing, which fits both in semantics and phonetics. Cognates in South, West and East Slavic languages, see. The cognate is found in early East Slavic texts, which makes it clear it's not a borrowing from Romanian.

Currently, we list the Latin inheritance variant as most likely because that's the variant most Romanian linguists support. However, this is mostly due to the nationalist ideology (still) prevalent in the Academia.

I am not sure how to proceed with this. Are we making this a vote as in "most linguists, dead and alive, support this theory" or should we try to find the answer?

Also, currently Romanian says it's likely from Latin, whereas the Hungarian equivalent, karácsony has no such thing, making it unambiguously derived from Slavic. Bogdan (talk) 19:44, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

I don't see why it's disputed - none of the Latin proposals make any sense. They seem like desperate graspings at straws...and why ? Absurd. It's obviously a Slavic loan. Geeze. Leasnam (talk) 22:25, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

The comparisons to Romance ex creatur seem to suggest a sense of 'birth', which is well compatible with christening and christmess. Inasmuch as Christmas is a symplectic feat and mass is even of uncertain origin, compatible with the supposed "calling" hypothesis if indeed from missa (cp. eg. euangelion?), each of the hypotheses might have a point.

I'd throw χάρις in the ring (with "χάριτι θεοῦ" Paulus (1. Kor. 15, 10)), cf. grace period, cp Pt. carência (idem Ger. Karenzzeit "grace period", noting that I'm still doubtful about the dating of quarantine), Fi. ruokarukous (“say the graces”), maybe greet for more, and maybe rugăciune for the ending; Polish dziękczynienie may also mean Thanksgiving (closer to winter solstice?). Indeed, I should beginn filing for tax returns before I get written on the naughty list.

The Slavic ety on the other hand (“to step”, said of the sun “stepping forth” after winter solstice) doesn't sound very particular either. Now if a similar word also meant congregate, -tion ... actually, case in point. 2A02:3032:40D:8671:2:1:F6C2:CFE2 16:55, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

ApisAzuli (talk) 16:57, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

More over in a grand scheme of things, where Ger. Gnaden Gottes is the traditional translation of χάριτι θεοῦ and etymologically questionable, while Armenian Սուրբ Ծնունդ (Surb Cnund, “Christmas, holy + birth”) reflects, same as western Romance languages, *ǵénh₁- (cp. Noël, see also Ger. Christ-Kind, and the false(?) cognate Kunde "message, teaching, knowledge" and yet again cognate Armenian ծնօղ, even Amharic ገና (gäna, “Christmas”), PS: Knecht Ruprecht). I'm trying to see a connection here. Armenian is inarguably closer to lake Van; Gnadenzeit is indeed collocated with Weihnachtzeit; A sense of family reunion can be derived from eg. gnōtós ("kinsman") as well.

Perhaps we have here also Iranian reflexes eg. Yagnobi за́нта (zánta), seeing that Old Syrian Christendom was prolific in Iran, and Christian new Sogdian documents from the 10th century do exist. Avestan 𐬰𐬄𐬚𐬀𐬭 (ząθar, “creator; the Lord”) couldn't be any clearer (and it explains German Kurdish rapper Xatar's name very well).

Further comparison with the Jesus seems also possible, cp. eg. Czech Ježíšek, Slovene Božiček(?) but Slovak Mikuláš and more commonly in the Slavic sphere eg. Дя́до Мраз (Djádo Mraz), Дя́до Коледа (Djádo Koleda), which would, instead of "cold" or "the calands", rather remind of Swaarte Piet (cp. murky, etc.; indeed, cf. Polish Święty Mikołaj), or maybe March or Μέγας Βασίλειος (s.v. Άγιος Βασίλης (Ágios Vasílis)). Nikol(aus) and Pai Natal look possibly confusing as well, say vulgar * nicchol-(?) for a compromise.

Does any of that invalidate the supposed pagan East Slavic angle? I don't know. PSlav. *zę̀tь "son-in-law" < *ǵénh₁tis would be the only reflex from this well known root. That's mighty odd.

Anyway, happy black friday to y'all! ApisAzuli (talk) 14:02, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

——————

While it is true that Romanian etymologies are often plagued by an irrational 'allergy' to Slavic word-origins, I am not seeing that here. Latin creationem > Romanian Crăciun would be a perfectly normal development, phonologically, and it is semantically satisfactory as well, considering the use of the Latin word in religious contexts and considering what Christmas is meant to celebrate, namely the birth of Christ.

A connection with various Balkan Slavic words, of the type Kračún, is obvious, but that the latter do not themselves derive from Romance is less so. The semantics of the proposed *korčiti “to step” > "winster solstice" are, at best, weak—certainly in comparison to the aforementioned derivation from Latin. If the article's comment on Old Romanian crăciun having an additional sense of 'birth' is correct, then I would consider Latin creationem to be by far the likeliest of the proposed explanations.

If kračún is first recorded first in Balkan Slavic texts, that is only to be expected, considering that Romanian entered its literary period only in the sixteenth century, while Balkan Slavic had already done so in the ninth. The lack of a clear cognate meaning 'winter solstice' in non-Balkan Slavic is also worth considering; in either case, we are dealing with a local innovation. Finally, as a speaker of at least one Slavic language (Russian), I am not aware of any native Slavic suffix of the type /-ˈun/, so the proposal of krak 'foot' as the etymon of kračún strikes me as not only semantically difficult, but also morphologically so. Meanwhile, Romanian has /-ˈtʃʲune/, inherited from Latin -tionem, precisely what is found in the form creationem. Nicodene (talk) 02:36, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

It's well precedented in my experience that Christmas can indeed loose the Christian connotation even if precedented a few centuries back. Nevertheless I thought the common wisdom about eg. the Christmas tree was that it's a pagan tradition.

By the way, Sylvester appears mighty odd in this regard, and the heathens did clear entire forests for acherage, so maybe also for charcoal come winter? You know, blackwood? December Timber? Even Transilvania could compare to certain Iranian words with initial t for "black", "dark", though this is a stretch; Besides, cp. durch (“trans-, well cooked”). I maintain that Schwarzwald could as well allude density, opposite to licht (“light”), but density is maybe proportional to calories (indeed cp. Schwarte). Coincidently, *krsnos would be rather close, or Cernobog? New years eve is of course due its namesake and thus at best only indirectly related to Latin silva 'woods' at best. I'm just saying, why dry a tree in your house if not to eventually burn it on a pyre.

Coincidently, I went through creo to Ceres and, although its entry disagrees slightly on the root, on to wikipedia and Demeter. This is ticking so many boxes, actually, I'm overwhelmed. For a start, some rites were held in January, she has 12 little helpers, the divine attribute may be represented as a bushel of crop (to smack naughty horned animals, cp. cuck, the horned husband? which I reckon may recall the practice of altering property marks with an additional score notch in the bed post instead); cult center in Sito though this must be a mistake, if it is a household tutalary god and construed analogous to Demeter, *dem- "to build" (cp. domina, Lord, creator), for in situ, meaning locally variable; on the other hand I'd not know if ząθar compares (Kloekhorst has some comparisons for Hit. z- to Gr. s < *t I believe, and ere's the diagnostic palatal i; cp. *so- ~ *to-, *Ke-). See perhaps also Frankish Horning for, I believe February, noting that some festivities may wander and that Calands pertain to January, right – and we actually give "bastard" as the ety. See also above timber < *dem-.

Finally, a sense of 'grow' seems compatible with 'walk' to me. The ending may be complicated, but Ru. Dative(?) *-u can carry many functions in interjection, for one. For the *n-stem consider perkun, perkwunos. In a tradiated view, she Ceres is the bringer, cp. gerere, also compatible with 'step' in a sense, and March, Mercur. A further comparison to tengri, another chtonic diety that came as far as Hungary (Hu. tenger "sea"?), seems posable, though phonetically difficult. In another view there is a simplex Deo in Demeter, looking a little similar to Дя́до. ApisAzuli (talk) 15:37, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Tldr; "this is a stretch"..."ticking so many boxes"... the rest can be ignored... Chuck Entz (talk) 15:48, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, reading Transylvania as Blackwood forest is an extreme stretch. I didn't make it up specially for this thread, it just happens to fit beautifully. W.r.t. to Goddesses and their rites, at least, syncretism should be reckoned with, however. If it is the old Krishna vs. Christ comparison in disguise, it is naturally not going anywhere. Winter solstice is the longest night, mind. ApisAzuli (talk) 16:15, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

@Leasnam Old English stēorbord and Old Norse stjórnborði may show that the concept (and general formation) of a starboard existed in Proto-Germanic times, but I can't pin down an exact formation. The formation was borrowed into Romance repeatedly in the form (s)t(r)ibord as well. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 19:12, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps interestingly, the usual Germanic counterpart backboard is nearly absent or obsolete in modern English, despite the root of back basically surviving only in English and Scandinavian. Wakuran (talk) 21:26, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

The Old English would descend from a Proto-Germanic *steurōburdą; but the Old Norse form above would come from Proto-Germanic *steurīniburdô. Leasnam (talk) 00:01, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Whereas "backboard" apparently is hypothetized to be derived from Proto-Germanic *bakaburdaz. (I'm not sure on why the endings on the two words would differ, though. Perhaps they're based on different Proto-Germanic hypotheses.) Wakuran (talk) 01:13, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Might the variation indicate a loan relationship akin eg. to dexter? Although the few Germanic cognates have *-uo instead, or a mix of both, *-te-wo-o which would already look a lot like -wards, and a little less like *wand "hand" There are also two ON outcomes of *bankiz, some of which conspiciously lose the n. 2A02:3032:409:CB06:2:2:242:2D85 10:32, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

I think nasals were quite frequently dropped in Proto-Norse for a wide variety of words. Infinitive verb endings, for instance. Wakuran (talk) 12:51, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Considering how readily nautical terms are/were borrowed within the Germanic Sprachbund, I wouldn't be at all surprised if these terms didn't go back to Proto-Germanic at all, but were coined in one early Germanic variety and then spread by a combination of borrowing and calquing to the others. —Mahāgaja · talk 10:54, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

A very real possibility. Yet inheritance is equally possible, so it's a 50:50 chance on these types of terms. The only sure thing is that there is no clear way of knowing for sure, unfortunately. We can make educated guesses, such as using the frequency of a noun declension perhaps, to decide if a compound contains a fossilised ending, but I cannot think of any other way to be more certain... Leasnam (talk) 19:33, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

The obviously incompatible morphological formations also lend credence to possible calquing (albeit based on close relatives) instead of inheritance. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 20:25, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, that is also a good test. Leasnam (talk) 00:25, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, for calquing vis-a-vis inheritance, I might wonder whether the end results would matter much. Inherited words aren't immune to change, either way. Wakuran (talk) 12:51, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Are these Old English and Old Norse terms actually attested? The Dutch book Nederlandse woorden wereldwijd considers (Middle) Dutch stuurboord the etymon of all these terms.  --Lambiam 15:03, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

The Old English is attested. —Mahāgaja · talk 16:20, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

The Old Norse apparently shows up in a manuscript of the Fornmanna Sögur, but another copy left the borð- component off: see here, where both versions are indicated. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 20:37, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

The formation * tribord implied in the above is most curious, cp. abtreiben to steer off topic, after I bespoke drive, previously, and steuern eintreiben for (modern) colocation. travail also comes to mind. ApisAzuli (talk) 22:16, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Probably just a simplification of the str- consonant cluster. It seems like the Romance languages generally have borrowed the word from Old French estribord. Wakuran (talk) 23:11, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

The English Wiktionary entry for the noun fika claims it originates as backslang of "kaffi". Svensk ordbok agrees. On the other hand, Swedish Wiktionary says this is a myth, though without a source: "Från adjektivet fiken, att vara sugen på något, att ha begär. Ordet fika är omgärdat av flera olika myter som att det är en omkastningar ordet kaffe och en sägen om plåtburkar i försvaret märkta med förkortningen F.I.K.A."

New to Swedish & Wiktionary so not sure how to settle myself. --Okritiskt (talk) 22:03, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Given that the Wiktionary statement stems from an editor who only has made two edits to propose the "fiken" etymology in question, I'd rather wager my bets on Svensk Ordbok. That the word "fiken" ("eager") exists, isn't necessarily proof that "fika" would be derived from it. Wakuran (talk) 01:10, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

That is, the phrases "fika efter" ("yearn for") and "fika" ("have a coffee break") would not necessarily be etymologically related. Wakuran (talk) 13:18, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Hi, I was just curious if the word 'hearse' (< medieval Latin hercia) could have been influence in its semantic development by the phonetically similar (ancient) Greek word ἕρκος 'fence, enclosure'? I don't doubt the currently given etymology - though admittedly it is quite a wild one, from 'wolf' through 'teeth' to 'plough' and then to 'framework of wood or metal' - but I was just wondering if the Greek word might not also have influence the word somewhat. AntiquatedMan (talk) 14:37, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Graeca sunt, non leguntur. Fay Freak (talk) 15:17, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Fair enough. AntiquatedMan (talk) 16:19, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

I see that the entry for Russian година (godina) says it is from Old East Slavic годъ (godŭ). However, it does nothing to explain the -ина (-ina) at the end, so could this be from Old Church Slavonic година (godina) instead?

Also, could Russian угода (ugoda) be from у- (u-) +‎ года (goda)? Prahlad balaji (talk) 17:47, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/godina says that Russian година (godina) is borrowed from Old Church Slavonic година (godina), but it also says that Belarusian гадзі́на (hadzína), Carpathian Rusyn годи́на (hodýna), and Ukrainian годи́на (hodýna) are all inherited, so I don't see why the Russian couldn't be too. —Mahāgaja · talk 19:58, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Okay, I have changed the etymology so that it says that it is derived from Proto-Slavic *godina. Prahlad balaji (talk) 02:19, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Middle Irish Saxa (“~Anglo-Saxon, Englishman”) is a rare word that must, presumably, be the original singular of Saxain that was later displaced semantically by Saxanach. Saxa is not attested in Old Irish, however Saxain is. First, would it be reasonable to assume that Saxa goes back to Old Irish? (this seems to me like a daft question, but I have had bigger surprises regarding Irish!) Second, if an Old Irish form existed, what would its form be? Recognising that Latin Saxō is an n-stem and that Old Irish Saxain looks like an n-stem plural, the Old Irish singular would presumably be an n-stem too. Would Old Irish *Saxu be the correct reconstruction for this? ShellfaceTheStrange (talk) 21:17, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

It's hard to know for sure. The -u of n-stems is generally found where the Proto-Celtic nom.sg. ended in -i(y)ū (or the Latin nom.sg. ended in -iō in the case of loanwords). When the ending was just -ū directly after a consonant, the Old Irish nom.sg. usually ends in the consonant, often with u-coloring of the preceding vowel. So the singular of Old Irish Saxain was more likely to have been *Sax or *Saux, since we'd expect it to correspond to Latin Saxō, not *Saxiō. But it's difficult to be 100% certain about it. —Mahāgaja · talk 21:32, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for this insight, I could not grasp why some Old Irish n-stems have -u and some do not. If we assume that there was an Old Irish *Sa(u)x, would it be possible to derive Middle Irish Saxa (with its final vowel) from it regularly? If not, I would wonder if Saxa could be a later analogical formation. ShellfaceTheStrange (talk) 21:52, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Middle Irish doesn't just go around adding -a to Old Irish words, so it's not phonologically regular. And according to eDIL, the form Saexu is attested somewhere, which I think is very likely to be analogical. The early modern dative plural Sacsaibh, however, shows that the n-stem inflection wasn't stable. The spelling Saxae in Compert Con Culainn suggests that it got shifted to the io-declension, and the spelling Saxa is more likely to be a variant spelling of io-stem Saxae than of n-stem Saxu, since unstressed u remained distinct from unstressed a for longer than unstressed (a)e did. —Mahāgaja · talk 22:28, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Very interesting indeed. I have followed the references given by the eDIL, and the group of Saexu, Saxa, Sexae are all variants of a single word from different manuscripts of Tochmarc Emire (eDIL cites Zeitschrift für celtische Philologie, Volume 3, page 249, which is an edited version of the text). The dizzying variation of forms here surely supports the argument that Saxa is analogical. I thought my first question trivial, but once again Irish surprises! ShellfaceTheStrange (talk) 23:19, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Could this word have been borrowed from Swedish nederdel? Danish seems to have no prefix or word neder but Swedish does. Prahlad balaji (talk) 02:13, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

I wouldn't be surprised if all of the Continental Scandinavian languages originally borrowed the word from Middle Low German, to be honest. But the connections between the various Continental Scandinavian and Continental West Germanic languages could often be rather convoluted and fuzzy.

For the prefix neder- Svensk Akademisk Ordbok states

I ett stort antal fall äro ssgrna med neder- dock antingen direkta lån från t. l. nt. l. efterbildningar av t. l. ngt.* ord.

(*Probably a typo for nt.)

Meaning

In a large number of cases, the compounds with neder- are however either direct loans from German or Low German or calques of (some) German or Low German word.

Wakuran (talk) 02:46, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

I've updated both etymologies (Danish and Swedish). Leasnam (talk) 21:55, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

The wiktionary entry is basically copied from Merriam Webster, which refers to "...others believe it comes from the Classical Hebrew phrase barukh habba', meaning "blessed be he who arrives" (Psalms 118:26)"

It's clear to any good listener, and especially to Hebrew speakers that the 3-syllable brouhaha is quite unlike the 4-syllable sound of baruch habah and the very meaning of the latter being "welcome" makes it abundantly clear that this theory of origin of the word brouhaha is mistaken.

The word brouhaha is attributed to being French in origin, as it first appeared in an 1865 book by Jules Verne, Kéraban-Le-Têtu, and also in his famous novel From the Earth to the Moon, but the Hebrew word brouhacha has been there for thousands of years in Exodus 15:10 (v' is the soft variant of b' both sounds of the letter bet)

נָשַׁ֥פְתָּ בְרוּחֲךָ֖ כִּסָּ֣מוֹ יָ֑ם (na-shafta v'ruhacha k'samo yam.) You made Your wind blow, the sea covered them (Sefaria)

Clearly a wind blown by the Lord sufficient to make the sea cover the pursuing Egyptian army is a more likely source of Jules Verne's use of the word brouhaha than baruch habah is. DKauffman (contribs ~ talk) 22:47, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

I always thought this word was imitative. DJ K-Çel (contribs ~ talk) 22:48, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Derivation from Psalm 118:28 is also the favoured theory in the entry “brouhaha”, in Trésor de la langue française informatisé , 2012. According to that entry, variations are already found as early as 1548 (Brou, brou, brou, ha, ha, Brou, ha, ha.). Yours is a nice theory, but it is hard to explain how the term found its way from Exodus 15:10 to French.  --Lambiam 20:12, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Is the doubled e a stress indicator? Arlo Barnes (talk) 21:02, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

I doubt it. This is “the sort of thing idle pseudo-intellectuals invent on the Internet and which every smarty-pants takes up thereafter”. In this case, the pseudo-intellectual inventor apparently did not know the meaning of Ancient Greek ἀνάστημα (anástēma), related to the verb ἀνίστημι (anístēmi, “raise, make stand up”). The noun ἀνάστημα means “height”, so the term should mean “love of tall people (or things)”. They apparently also did not know how to transliterate (pseudo-)learned Ancient Greek neologisms. And finally, they did not know that in such compounds the first component should be based on the oblique stem, in this case ἀνάστηματ- (anástēmat-), which should have resulted in anastematophilia. So I think the ⟨ee⟩ is an ignorance indicator.  --Lambiam 23:40, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

There's another possibility: pseudo-intellectuals also often don't know the difference between modern and ancient Greek (Exhibit A: paraskavedekatriaphobia), so the "anasteema" might be a phonetic rendering of the Greek (see some modern Greek dictionary entries for ἀνάστημα). Chuck Entz (talk) 03:17, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

We also have an entry for Modern Greek ανάστημα (anástima), which in the official monotonic orthography is written without spiritus.  --Lambiam 17:47, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Interesting, thank you. The pseudo-intellectual presumptive origin also explains why the entry says it is a ghost word (and as of today has been RFVd). Arlo Barnes (talk) 16:21, 1 January 2022 (UTC)