User:Hekaheka/Archive

This page currently contains the archive from my discussion page from the years 2006 through 2010

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I'm going to put the "ship" words back. Two reasons:

• translations are often asymmetric, and it is better to give the user more options; they should certainly be looking at the entries to see a more precise definition;
• but more importantly, "boat" does not mean "small". For example, in the US Navy, a submarine is always a boat. (An Ohio-class boat is 170 meters long ... they are built by a division of General Dynamics called Electric Boat ;-)

Robert Ullmann 21:46, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Finish inflection templates really need to start with "fi-" to follow conventions here. Do those codings you are using for the template names mean anything to anyone besides you? If they are your personal mnemonics, then please create them only as redirects to the properly named template. --Connel MacKenzie 21:13, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Wait a sec, man! I'm making this easier for everyone. Hekaheka 21:16, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

You may have misunderstood, by how I said it, so please allow me to try again...

Thank you for adding Finish inflection templates to en.wiktionary.org. Despite not speaking Finish, the majority of readers here will be quite fascinated by the various inflected forms in that language.

Could you please take a moment to follow the en.wikt: standard naming conventions for language inflection templates. Template descriptions start at WT:I2T, with much more detailed pages linked from there.

Thanks in advance, --Connel MacKenzie 21:19, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Could you specify, which template name is wrong? Hekaheka 21:22, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

The Finish templates at Special:Prefixindex/Template:Fi are all named wrong. For starters, all templates in this form should start in lower case. Secondly, the language code prefix, followed by a hyphen, followed by the part-of-speech (optionally followed by a subgrouping) is the form they need to take. --Connel MacKenzie 21:28, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

So, for example, you could have Template:fi-declension-1 for the first declension, or if really needed, noun, adjective and other, for declension one as Template:fi-noun-1, Template:fi-adj-1, etc. --Connel MacKenzie 21:31, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh shit, this is much worse than I thought. I have just followed the way I saw the previous editors had done. I have created two completely new templates and corrected mistakes in a few existing ones. I'm currently combining some templates in order to reduce the total number of them. Currently there is some unnecessary redundancy.

In Finnish the declensions are the same for nouns, adjectives, pronouns and numerals -> no need to separate in that sense. Altogether, there are 85 declensions, which means that some 30...35 are still missing. Changing all the template names would be quite a project now, because so many pages link to them, but I take your advise. An additional difficulty is that the Wiki numbering currently in use differs from the accepted numbering which the linguists are using. If I make any new declensions, I'll name the template as "Template:fi-declension-#". Does that sound like ok?Hekaheka 21:46, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

That sounds good. If you'd like, I can run pywikipediabot's replace.py on each of the templates, after the are simply moved to the correct name. But I don't know Finish at all, so I'm not about to do that myself, without help from someone who knows the language! --Connel MacKenzie 22:49, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I studied this topic a little bit. It seems that all templates which are of the form "Fi"+(two-digit number)+(a,b or nothing) refer to Finnish nominal (covers nouns, adjectives, pronouns and numerals) templates. If one can systematically carry out an operation where they would be renamed to fi-nominal-declension-01a or fi-nominal-01a, no harm would probably be done. Then there is one test template by the user Hyark with the name Template:fi-noun-01, but it only works for part of the words in declension #1, is not referred to from anywhere and is a trial anyway. Naturally both templation names, and references to them would have to be changed.

To my understanding the change could be made now, and I could continue from that. The cleaning of the whole of the nominal declension tables is going to take weeks with the time resource that I can put into this project. Simple renaming is not sufficient, because there is redundancy, errors and uncovered variation. For example templates "Fi04a" and "Fi04b" were overlapping with "Fi02a" and "Fi02b". I have combined these four to one single template currently named "Fi02a". The subdivision of templates into separate a- and b-types is unnecessary, because one can take the alternating of -a/-ä -endings into account in the template format.

There are at least two further aspects, which may deserve attention at this point:

1. As I mentioned yesterday, there are 85 nominal declensions in the Finnish language. A Finnish-Finnish dictionary "Nykysuomen sanakirja" (NSK in the continuation) is regarded as authoritative source for correct Finnish. I think it would make sense to give to the declensions same numbers which they have in NSK. Currently this is the case only for the first three, which I completed yesterday. Does that sound like a good solution to you?

2. In addition to nominal declensions, there are 45 verb declension types. In NSK their numbering starts from one, but currently in Wiktionary they are listed right after the nominal declensions, and the numbering starts from 53, which overlaps with the numbering needs of nominals. The solution here might be to divide the page http://en.wiktionary.orghttps://dictious.com/en/Wiktionary:Finnish_inflection_types into two subsets (?). Good news is that one can master all of them with one inflection table, which has 19 variables (the bad news). This table exists as Template:FiVerbDeclensions, but it should probably be renamed as well in order to make it match with Wiki conventions. The table also leaves all but the first infinitive and all participes uncovered, but that may wait.

Hekaheka 11:10, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi,

If you add translations that are words that are not unique to Finnish, please redirect to the finnish section, e.g. on mass: ]. Thank you. Alternatively, you can use {{t}}: {{t|fi|massa}}, it adds the link automagically. henne 12:09, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the advice, I'll remember that. Hekaheka 12:20, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Taidat olla oikeassa, mutta lienee selvää että sanassa on pyritty säilyttämään samankaltainen riimittely.--Jyril 10:04, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Terve, ja kiitos kommenteista. Taivutusmallinteiden sijoittelu on tosiaan varsin ongelmallista, ne kun vievät kovin paljon tilaa. Tarkoitus olisi päivittää kaikki väärässä paikassa olevat taulukot, jolloin mainitsemasi ongelma korjaantuu (eräs tapa on lisätä <br clear="all"/> ennen artikkeleita erottavaa väliviivaa). Toinen ongelma on se, että taulukko peittää {{top#}}-templateilla tehdyt listat. Senkin voi korjata. Taulukoiden hyödyllisyydestä voi tosin olla montaa mieltä, mutta mielestäni varsinkin kun sanassa esiintyy astevaihtelua, sen taivuttaminen voi olla ulkomaalaiselle kohtuuttoman vaikeaa.

Pohdin sellaistakin vaihtoehtoa, että taulukon lisäisi part-of-speechin jälkeen ja oletusarvoisesti pitäisi sen piilossa. Ongelmana on se, että käyttäjät jotka eivät jostain syystä käytä Javascriptiä, näkevät taulukon koko ajan.

Tässä kömpelö esimerkki:

testi

inflection Template:Fi05

Templatien numeroinnissa olen yrittänyt seurata Wikisanakirjaa, jonka numerointi ilmeisesti perustuu Nykysuomen sanakirjaan. Mahdolliset poikkeavuudet NSK:n käytännöstä tulisi korjata, samoin kuin mahdollisesti epästandardit templatien nimet. 'a' ja 'b' -templatit voi muuten yhdistää, joten templatien määrää voidaan vähentää.

Suomi-foorumia ei liene Wiktionaryssa ole, voisikohan sellaisen perustaa esim. Wiktionary:Beer parlour'n alle. Taivutustemplaateista ja taivuttelusta yleensä voi keskustella Wiktionary talk:Finnish inflection types-sivulla.--Jyril 19:26, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Hei, tuota...taisin olla aika väsynyt lisätessäni abessiivin ja instruktiivin, kun näin jälkeenpäin ajattelee. Abessiivi ja instruktiivi voisivat kyllä teoriassa olla olemassa, vaikkakaan niitä ei käytetä. Mutta totta, ehkä ihan paras jättää se pois :P -- 08:42, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Jaahas, ei ottanut käyttäjänimeä, vaikka sen laitoin :D terv.: User:Frous

Hei, voitko laittaa Related words -alaotsikon alle pelkästään käsiteltävään sanaan etymologisesti liittyviä sanoja, jotka eivät periydy ko. sanasta (esim. artikkelissa "autoilija" "autoilu" ). Jos sanat liittyvät muulla tavalla toisiinsa, pistä ne See also -osioon. Lisätietoa löytyy EPE:stä.

Jos näin on, niin tehdään. Täytyy lukea ohjeet uudestaan. Olin itse ymmärtänyt asian englanninkielisiä artikkeleja katselemalla siten, että:

Synonyms= samaa tarkoittavat sanat. Esim puku->asu Derived terms= sanat, joilla on etymologinen yhteys. Esim puku->pukea Related terms= asiayhteyden kautta hakusanaan liittyvät sanat. Esim puku->frakki See also= Muuta mielenkiintoista asiaan ehkä vähän etäisestikin liittyvää. Esim puku->naamioituminen. Päästäisten kohdalla kysymys on sikäli helppo, että ne voitaisiin yhtä hyvin sijoittaa otsikon Derived terms alle, mutta lepakoiden kohdalla joudutaan jo miettimään, koska osa lepakoista on nimeltään siippoja ja osa yökköjä. Tuntuisi luontevalta, että koko suvun voisi listata jonkin otsikon alle.Hekaheka 20:50, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Epämääräinen artikkeli tuskin sopii lajinimen eteen, ks. esim. idänpäästäinen.

Tämä riippunee myös siitä ajatellaanko vain lajia, vai myös yksittäistä idänpäästäistä.Hekaheka 20:50, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Totta kyllä. Itse välttäisin artikkelin käyttöä lukuun ottamatta tapauksia, joissa käännökseksi pitää kirjoittaa kokonainen lause.--Jyril 22:03, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

En usko, että kannattaa mainita mitkä eläimet elävät Suomessa. Periaatteessa kaikki artikkelin tieto pitäisi jollakin tavalla liittyä kielitieteellisesti itse sanaan.

Mietin itsekin, minkä otsikon siihen kohtaan panisin, jos mitään. Syy sille, että lopulta mainitsin otusten elävän Suomessa on, että niille on olemassa käytössä oleva ja yleisistä lähteistä todennettavissa oleva suomenkielinen nimi. Muillakin lajeilla voi toki olla alan harrastajapiireissä käytössä suomenkielisiä nimiä, mutta niitä ei löydy esimerkiksi tietosanakirjoista. Tätä kautta kotipaikka-asialla voi olla myös kielitieteellinen merkityksensä.Hekaheka 20:50, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Jos sinulla on lähde, niin olisi hyvä, jos lisäisit sen artikkeliin References-alaotsikon alle. Itse olen lätkinyt {{wikipedia|lang=fi}} templaatteja kun termi löytyy suomenkielisestä Wikipediasta.

Samaan asiayhteyteen liittyvät termit voidaan listata samaan kategoriaan. Esimerkiksi lepakot voidaan listata topic-luokkaan Category:fi:Bats. Luokkien yhtenäisyys pitää kuitenkin säilyttää, eli myös luokka Category:Bats pitää luoda. Luokka Category:Finnish nouns on kätevä varsinkin jos artikkeleita pitää käydä läpi automaattisesti, mutta topic-luokat ovat paljon hyödyllisempiä navigoinnin kannalta.--Jyril 22:03, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Yhdyssanojen etymologioiden kirjoittamisen helpottamiseksi tein templaatin Template:etycomp, jonka avulla etymologiaosan ulkoasu voidaan yhdenmukaistaa. Se, että templaatti hyväksyy toistaiseksi vain kaksi sanaa ei pitäisi olla ongelma, sillä useimmat monta sanaa sisältävät yhdyssanat koostuvat kahdesta semanttisesta osasta, vrt. + tunti ] + mittari ].

OK. täytyypä tutustua. Hekaheka 20:50, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

--Jyril 20:08, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Kiitoksia!

Moniin näistä taivutusluokista tarvittaneen NSK:ta, arvaamalla menee kyllä pieleen. luokka 4 poikkeaa 2:sta siinä, että monikon partitiivilla on ylimääräinen muoto laatikkoihin. Mitenkäs NSK:ssa, eikö tuota muotoa pidä enää käyttää?

Alan pikku hiljaa tulla vakuuttuneeksi siitä, ettei taivutustaulukoita kannata lisätä joka artikkeliin erikseen. Tällä sivulla on joitakin tapoja, miten taivutusluokat voitaisiin esitellä sanan yhteydessä. Eli esitellään pelkästään sanan kanta + taivutustyyppi.

NSK:n taivutusluokkia on niin monta, että Wiktionary:Finnish inflection types -sivusta tulee liian suuri. Nominien taivutukset voitaisiin esitellä sivuilla Wiktionary:Finnish declension types/nouns/1 ... /85 ja verbit sivuilla Wiktionary:Finnish declension types/verbs/1 ... /45 tjsp. Ja jos käytetään alisivuja niin silloinhan verbeillekin voidaan lisätä harvinaisetkin taivutukset ja nominaalimuodot, tilaa riittää.--Jyril 21:55, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Could you take a look at this entry? It says "round", but doesn't explain which meanings of round are intended. Thanks. --EncycloPetey 06:32, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Pyöreä can probably always be translated as round. I'll check the correctness of this opinion when I return home from my traveling. I already checked the translations section of round, adding alternative translations where appropriate. Hekaheka 08:34, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

What EncycloPetey means here is that it is not clear which of the seven (as we currently have) meanings of the adjective "round" the Finnish word "pyöreä" refers to. Does it mean circular, spherical, plump, rounded off, etc, or several of these, all of them?

Where there is ambiguity, translations should always be followed by a gloss. So, for example (and I don't know - this is for you to say) if "pyöreä" means "round" as in "spherical", you should write:

• round (spherical)

and if it means "round" in several meanings, give these on several lines, wikifying only the first instance of the word:

• round (spherical)
• round (lacking sharp corners)
• round (of a number)

Thanks. — Paul G 15:28, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, the Wiki-document "entry layout explained" says this: Translations are to be given for English words only. In entries for foreign words, only the English translation is given, instead of a definition. In case of the adjective pyöreä it can always be translated into English as "round" (I'll double-check this as soon as I get back home and get the opportunity to consult my "Nykysuomen sanakirja"). I have interpreted this so, that as long as there is no ambiguity in translating a foreign word into English, explanations are not required and not even desirable. If I have misunderstood, I'll be happy to change my ways.

With my previous comment I meant that I have added pyöreä to those definitions of "round" (at least seven out of eight), which can be translated as pyöreä into Finnish, and also translated every other sense that the word "round" has. It is true that pyöreä is an imprecise word, but so is the adjective "round", too, and almost exactly in the same way. If one wants to find the Finnish equivalent for an adjective which is more precise about the kind of roundness in question - such as spherical - I have understood that one is supposed to look at the English entry "spherical" for translations. An additional practical problem is that the English definitions are constantly edited, and keeping track of them is next to impossible.

Hekaheka 17:21, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for adding some derived terms. Please note that derived terms and other lists (related terms, synonyms, etc) should be given in alphabetical order. This makes them easier for a user to search through for the term they want, also avoids accidental duplicates and makes it easier for contributors to see which terms, if any, have been omitted. — Paul G 15:22, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for advice. Hekaheka 17:25, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I happpened to look at some of your recent edits and noticed that you seemed be removing Finnish translations of certain English words. Can I ask why you have been doing that?

It is probably because they have been wrong or misleading. Could you specify which words you refer to? I'm ready to discuss my edits one by one, and to correct any unintentional mistakes.

Hekaheka 07:09, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm another who deeply regrets your removal of Finnish Translations for hare, which were quite elaborated. It's you who are misleading. You deliberately mistake arctic hare (Lepus arcticus) instead of mountain hare (Lepus timidus) for metsäjänis. With arctic hare, you mistake Lepus timidus for Lepus arcticus. I would not say but almost know why you are as mad as a March hare about arctic hare. Note the Old World Scandinavian and Baltic languages normally have nothing to do with the American w:Arctic hare but w:Mountain hare and w:European hare. Please advice me if these three Wikipedian articles are not enough for this discussion.

Otherwise, may I cordially ask you to restore and report here whatever you have mistaken, deliberately or not? Seriously yours --KYPark 14:29, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

No, sir, I still think I was right in shortening the list of translations. This was the Finnish translation before my editing:

jänis (1), metsäjänis (1, Lepus timidus), rusakko (1, Lepus europaeus / Lepus capensis)´´

And this the English definition of "hare":

Any of several plant-eating animals of the family Leporidae, especially of the genus Lepus, being usually somewhat larger than a rabbit and with longer ears.

The definition clearly indicates that "hare" is a generic word referring to a group of species that have common characteristics, and are therefore called "hares". The Finnish equivalent for "hare" is thus "jänis", which is also a generic word. One must remember that Wiktionary is not an encyclopedia, and I think translations should be direct equivalents and not lists of connected words. I have made a new entry for "metsäjänis" plus edited "jänis" and "rusakko" to handle the variety of species.

Another issue is which hare is which in different languages. When I made the connections rusakko = brown hare = Lepus europaeus and metsäjänis = arctic hare = Lepus timidus I used a Finnish zoology book as reference. It seems obvious that either Wikipedia or that book is wrong. I will study additional sources to find out, which is correct, and edit the entries "metsäjänis" and "rusakko" as well as their English equivalents accordingly - or Wikipedia, if that were the case. Will that be enough to take back the "March hare" label from my forehead?

Hekaheka 19:11, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

All right, I have now traced the source of the problem. Arctic hare and mountain hare have earlier been considered to be same species, hence the error in the zoology book, which I referred to above. According to current usage, arctic hare is called "napajänis" in Finnish. I have made appropriate corrections to the entries hare, arctic hare, European hare N, brown hare, eastern jackrabbit N, mountain hare N, jänis, metsäjänis, rusakko and napajänis N. However, I stubbornly insist that the translation of "hare" into Finnish is "jänis" but not "rusakko" nor "metsäjänis". Hekaheka 20:58, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I feel like accepting your insistence that hare simply be jänis, now that you have woven a much more coherent web around them. You go ahead while I would say this.

Surely, both are supposed to be generic enough and neatly equivalent. But such is the case at the cost of "ambiguity in generality" in general. The hare is a wild creature in nature. It is too shy, hence the name Lepus timidus, to be made mild or domesticated in contrast to the rabbit, or more precisely coney that is exceptionally widely cognate. In this regard, it may be said to be wilder than the wild boar, or:

• Estonian metssiga, from mets + siga "pig"
• Finnish metsäsika, from metsä + sika "pig" (assumed instead of villisika)
• Latvian mežacūka, from meža + cūka "pig"
• Sami meahccespiidni, from meahcce + spiidni "pig"

The hare is most likely to mean "grey," hence no sense of wildness in itself. So it might better be called "wild hare," "mountain hare," or "metsäjänis." Actually, take the following Far East compounded terms for example:

• Chinese: 野兔 (yětù), literally "wild hare"
• Japanese: 野兎 (のうさぎ, no-usagi), literally "wild hare"
• Korean: 산토끼 (san-tokki), literally "mountain hare"

We are not quite sure whether mountain hare or metsäjänis is an everybody's everyday word or scientific jargon. All I'm saying is that it may be not too bad a POV to put English hare into Finnish jänis AND metsäjänis that may sound preciser like CJK. In addition, it may interest you that the above-mentioned common Baltic prefix me* meaning "wild" or "mountain" sounds like the Korean equivalent met as of 멧돼지 (met-doeji).

Lastly, my sincere apologies to compare you to a March hare. I would suspect your sincerity no more. --KYPark 08:07, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I thought about the same problem as well, realising that normally people would not say "metsäjänis" or "mountain hare" but simply "jänis" and "hare". But, when an Englishman says "hare", he is most likely not speaking of Lepus timidus, because they are rare in the regions where English is spoken as native language. Most likely he is speaking of a specimen of some other species, although he may not even know the full name of it. In Finland on the other hand, there are only two native species of hare, called in Finnish officially "metsäjänis" and "rusakko". When a Finn says "jänis", he uses the word most likely as a short form of "metsäjänis" and he actually does speak of Lepus timidus. Therefore, I have included "mountain hare" as a possible translation for "jänis". This is one of the features that make working with Wiktionary so interesting - the translations are not always reciprocal. "Metsäjänis" and "mountain hare" are the same thing, but "hare" means rather seldom same as "metsäjänis", even though "jänis" means very often the same as "mountain hare". Hekaheka 11:54, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

rabbit

1398, "young of the cony," from Fr. dialect (cf. Walloon robète), dim. of Flem. or M.Du. robbe "rabbit," of unknown origin. The adult was a cony (q.v.) until 18c.

"Zoologically speaking, there are no native rabbits in the United States; they are all hares. But the early colonists, for some unknown reason, dropped the word hare out of their vocabulary, and it is rarely heard in American speech to this day. When it appears it is almost always applied to the so-called Belgian hare, which, curiously enough, is not a hare at all, but a true rabbit."

The above quote from etymonline may help. The two English words, hare and rabbit, should cover all the family Leporidae, regardless of the local availability of any species and native speakers' mistakes. Zoologically, there seems to be a consensus division. Meanings are simply differences. Hares are different from rabbits that burrow. So the division is straightforward. Then, the exact meaning of "hare" in context should be translated into "jänis" at one time AND/OR "metsäjänis" at another; AND if any difference, and OR if no difference between the synonyms. Preciseness (say, jänis and metsäjänis, as I suggest) and conciseness (say, jänis only, as you insist) are the two main linguistic virtues that ever tend to conflict. --KYPark 14:58, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I think I found a reasonable compromise. Check hare -> Translations -> *Finnish. Hekaheka 16:50, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

What a compromise! I appreciate your generosity above all. May I visit this page from time to time to ask you some Finnish questions? --KYPark 11:57, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, of course. I will be glad to share whatever knowledge I may have. Discussions like this serve as little steps to take Wikipedia project towards its ultimate goal. Hekaheka 15:11, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Viitsisitkö käyttää Template:fi-noun, Template:fi-adj, Template:fi-verb tai Template:fi-adv -templaatteja? Jos et halua arvailla sanojen juuria tai taivutusluokkia, niin riittää kirjoitaa esim. {{fi-noun}} ===Noun===-alaotsikon alle '''sana''':n paikalle. Säästyt nimittäin Category:Finnish nouns- ja muiden sanaluokkakategorioiden lisäämiseltä eikä minun tarvitse poistaa niitä templaatteja lisätessäni. Numeroilla ei ole vielä templaattia. Mitenkäs muuten numerot kannattaisi otsikoida? Ennen kaikki numerot olivat joko kardinaalilukuja (Cardinal number) tai järjestyslukuja (Ordinal number). Nyt jotkin numerot on otsikoitu pelkästään numeroina (Number) tai numeraaleina (Numeral). Jonkinlainen johdonmukaisuus pitäisi säilyttää.--Jyril 15:08, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Tässä joutuu ottamaan vähän takaisin. Katsoin käytössäni olevista sanakirjoista, ja näyttää siltä, että englannissa ei ole sanaluokkaa numeraalit. Kardinaaliluvut luokitellaan substantiiveiksi ja ordinaaliluvut adjektiiveiksi. Suomenkielisissä hakusanoissa voisi kai kuitenkin käyttää sanaluokkaa numeraali, koska meillä se eritellään. Hekaheka 19:43, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Jep, näppärä templaatti. Olenkin käyttänyt sitä jo pari päivää. Minun mielestäni numeron otsikko on Numeral, koska se on saman kategorian sana (part of speech) kuin Noun, Adjective, Pronoun jne.

Hekaheka 19:27, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Terve! Nuo aikaisemmin täällä käytetyt taivutusluokat ovat ilmeisesti peräisin täältä. Tuota sanalistaa voisi käyttää taivutusluokkien määrittämisessä, kunhan vaan pitää huolen, että numeroinnit menevät kohdalleen.

Jos tiedät, miten Nykysuomen sanakirja määrittelee eri taivutusluokat, niin voisitko lisätä ne Wiktionary:Finnish inflection types/nouns -sivun alisivuille? Varsinkin joidenkin a-loppuisten sanojen oikeiden taivutusluokkien löytäminen on päättelemällä hankalaa, sillä ne poikkeavat pelkästään joidenkin rinnakkaisten muotojen perusteella.--Jyril 00:35, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Enpäs kyllä tiedä. NSK on rakennettu siten, että substantiivin yhteydessä on yläviitteellä merkitty taivutusluokka, jota vastaavan taivutuksen voi hakea taulukosta, mutta välissä olevaa teoriaa ei ole selitetty. Voi toki olla, että sellaista ei ole kovin yksikäsitteisenä olemassakaan, koska taivuttaminen ei ole aina loogista. Esimerkiksi "kuusi" taipuu kahdella eri tavalla merkityksestä riippuen, ja on paljon sanapareja, joissa vain alkukirjain on erilainen, mutta se muuttaa taivutuksen. Esimerkkinä vaikkapa "kuusi" ja "huusi".

Löytämälläsi lähteellä on NSK:hon verrattuna muutamia hyviä puolia. Ensinnä se löytyy netistä (auttaa Wiktionary -työskentelyä), toiseksi se on julkaistu GNU Free Documentation License -systeemillä, joten ei tule edes teoriassa tekijänoikeusongelmia ja kolmanneksi se on ilmeisesti kehittyneempi malli, koska siinä on vähemmän taivutusluokkia. Tarvitaanko NSK-luokitusta siis enää tässä projektissa mihinkään? Vai oletko edennyt NSK-suunnassa niin pitkälle, että peruuttaminen on hankalaa? Hekaheka 18:48, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Kuusi ja kuusi ovat homonyymejä, eli kaksi aivan eri sanaa ;). Niillä on eri etymologiat, mistä johtuen niiden taivutukset ovat erilaisia. Mitä tulee numerointiin, en kyllä enää peruuttaisi. Epäselvissä tapauksissa voisi kylläkin käyttää yhtä luokkaa, esim. paperi/banaali -> 5, matala/asema -> 12 jne. (mikäli Joukahaista on uskominen, ainoa ero 11:n ja 12:n välillä on tavujen määrässä). Joka tapauksessa lähes kaikki sanat kuuluvat muutamaan luokkaan (1, 2, 4, 5/6, 10, 11/12/13, 63, 64, 65), niistäkin useimmat ovat ilmiselviä. Numeroiden paljous johtuu osittain hyvin vaihtelevasti taipuvista -i : -en -sanoista, joita ei ole montaa, mutta joille on annettu luokat 32-51. Useimmissa niistä on korkeintaan muutama sana. Jos em. epäselvät tapaukset ovat harvinaisia/ainutlaatuisia, ei niiden pitäisi tuottaa mitään ongelmia. Todennäköisimmin virheitä tulee siinä, että sana liitetään liian rajoittavaan luokkaan (esim. tuomari -> 4, vaikka se kuuluisi 5:een), jolloin "vakavaa vahinkoa" ei synny.--Jyril 20:06, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Jos tarkistettavia sanoja ei tule aivan mahdottomasti, niin voin pyynnöstäsi katsoa taivutusluokan, koska minulla on NSK hyllyssä. Hekaheka 20:14, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Olen muodostanut päätöspuun nominien taivutusten mukaan. Tärkeimmät ongelmakohdat ovat a- (12-17) ja i-loppuisten (5-6) sanojen kohdalla (en ole myöskään keksinyt, miten lahti poikkeaa 8:sta, sekä mitä eroa on lohella ja tuohella, sekä -mi loppuisilla sanoilla). Ilmeisesti 23-25, 27-29, 66-70 luokat poikkeavat toisistaan vain vokaalien perusteella, koska ne on yhdistetty KOTUS-luokituksessa (kauris/kaunis/koiras -sanoissa täytyy olla joitain muitakin eroja). Jos NSK:ssa ei ole annettu esimerkkejä, niin voitko etsiä samoin taipuvia sanoja, niin voisi yrittää päätellä, miten luokat on eroteltu toisistaan. Verbejä en ole vielä ehtinyt vilkaisemaan. Niistäkin suurin osa taipuu hyvin samalla tavalla.--Jyril 20:40, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Lahti merkityksessä meren tai järven lahti on luokkaa 8*, eli poikkeaa peruskaavasta vain t/d -astevaihtelun osalta. Lahti merkityksessä teurastus kuuluu luokkaan 4*, jälleen t/d -astevaihtelu. Sanoja mainitsemiisi luokkiin väliltä hal-har(asteriski ilmaisee astevaihtelun):

5: hankari, hanhikki*, hamsteri, hamari, halstari

6: hangaari, hampuusi, halunkki*, hasardi, harpisti, harmoni

12: harava, hapera, hankala

13: harhautuma, hankauma, hankava, haluisa, hallava, halkeama, harteva, harmahtava, harjoitelma

14: harhailija, hankkija, hallitsija, hamina, haltia, haltija, halkaisija, harrastelija

15: harakka*, haplologia, hankinta*, hanakka*, haljakka*, hallinta*, harsinta*, hartia, harmonia, harmonikka*

16: hankaaja, hangoittelija, halkoja, halava, harrastaja, harmaja

17:

Apaja on 16 ja herttua 20. Hekaheka 21:36, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Äkkiseltään näyttää, että

• 5: -eiden/-eitten/-ien
• 6: -ien/-eiden/-eitten *-sanat on siirretty luokkaan 5
• 12: koira mutta 3+ t--Jyril 23:25, 15 March 2007 (UTC)avua
• 13: -va, -sa -adjektiivit, -ma ?
• 14: kulkijan taivutus -oiden/-oitten/-ain
• 15: karahkan tavutus
• 16: -a : -ata

Joku logiikka tuossa on... Jos haluaa pelata varman päälle, niin voisi tehdä niin, että listaa epävarmat tapaukset johonkin sellaiseen taivutustyyppiin, joka on varmasti oikein. Nämähän ovat muutenkin tulkinnanvaraisia, ja jotkin taivutusmuodot ovat kadonneet käytöstä. Liian varovainen ei kannata olla, mutta täytyy varmistaa ettei tule valittua taivutusmuotoja, joita ei varmasti koskaan ole ollut käytössä.--Jyril 22:09, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Jaa, Joukahaisesta löytyy ainakin herttuan, perunan ja apajan taivutukset. Niillä on joitain erikoisempia taivutusmuotoja, esim. herttuiden, peruniin, apajata.--Jyril 20:58, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

May I invite you to Talk:világ under the above Section title? You may extend this invitation to anyone you like, perhaps including User:Jyril, for example. --KYPark 00:50, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

You may better talk at Talk:valkea than Talk:világ. --KYPark 06:43, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I have replaced my yesterday's reply with a new one at Talk:valkea. --KYPark 03:07, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Joo, itsekin ajattelin samaa. Kuitenkin olisi jotenkin hyvä näyttää, missä kohtaa astevaihtelu tapahtuu. Templaatin parametrin arvoksi ei näköjään voi lisätä tekstiä, jossa on HTML:ää, joten tekstin väriä ei voi vaihtaa. Idea tässä oli se, että käyttäjä näkee taivutuksen muudossa . En tiedä, selventääkö vai sotkeeko se asiaa. Ehkä astevaihtelua ei kannata erikseen merkitä. Sen sijaan sijapäätteet olisi hyvä merkitä selkeästi. Alaotsikoiden muuttaminen vaatii templaattien koodin säätämistä, mutta se on suht' helppoa koska linkki näkyy vain siinä tapauksessa, että taivutustyyppi on annettu. --Jyril 23:25, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

We already have Northern Sami - which is correct, or should we have both? SemperBlotto 16:55, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

To be honest, I don't know, which is more correct. I have seen in English texts North Sami, North Sámi, Northern Sami, North Saami, Ruija and a number of other terms that all refer to same language. The smaller a language is, the more names it seems to have! Because Wikipedia is settled for Northern Sami, let's keep that as truth at least for time being. I'll change North Sami as "Alternative spelling" -page for Northern Sami. OK? Hekaheka 17:09, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Jj-joo. Mul on ei niin vähänkään paha tapa toimia hetken aivoituksesta. Äkkiseltään ajatellen eihän noita sittenkään oo "järkevinä" johdoksina ku -himoinen, -kohtainen, -osainen, -sivuinen ja mitä vielä niitä on. Pahoittelen, yritän jatkos hetkeks pysähtyä kelaamaan ennen ku ohjaan sivuja muualle. (kiitos kärsivällisyydestä;) -- Frous 11:19, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Sadly, I do not speak Finnish, so if Frous has already told you this: an anonymous editor has changed the target of the redirect himoinen, can you verify whether this is vandalism or not? More importantly, I believe that redirects are discouraged here. Is there a special reason for this one? — Beobach972 03:53, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Terve. Joo, ihan järkevä ajatus, kannatan. Selventää kyl taivutusta, ku esimerkkiverbistä konkretisoituu paremmin taivutusmuotojen konsonanttivaihtelut suhteessa infinitiiviin. -- Frous 10:31, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Njaa...se on kai vähän miten asiaa ajattelee, mutta itse olen ainakin käsittänyt täällä olevan käytännön sellaiseksi, että jos sanoilla on eri etymologiat, niin ne tulee laittaa erikseen. Ja substantiivin taivutusmuoto on eri asia kuin substantiivista johdettu verbi, eli kaksi eri etymologiaa. -- Frous 12:11, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Ai, kiitos paljon :) -- Frous 11:11, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi,

I don't suppose you could check this edit for me? It seems suspicious to me, but I don't know any Finnish.

Thanks in advance!

—Ruakh_TALK 19:52, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not overly familiar with gay slang, but it looked suspicious enough, and I reverted it to the previous version. In fact, I'm quite sure that it wasn't an accurate expression, even if the Finnish word for "brother" has something to do with anal sex. I would imagine that something like "brotherly love" might come into question. Hekaheka 22:42, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the note, I'll do that in future. Thryduulf 09:32, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

If you refresh the page, you'll see that malta and romania are red lnks too. They were redirects. --EncycloPetey 07:37, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Jjeps. Kiitos tiedosta. -- Frous 20:06, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Dear Hekaheka,

Thank you very much for your fine contributions to the Finnish and Estonian name lists in the Name Appendix. Please do go on.

Best regards, Alasdair (Sanne van den Eijnde, [email protected])

hey! thanks for that etymology site I was looking for some :D Mallerd 14:16, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

The templating with italbrac or context is important for the consistant display style and user ability to set preferences on it. In undoing it you are creating an inconsistent style. The "of a ..." phrase is a context, not part of the definition sentence of phrase itself. Robert Ullmann 15:27, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

It seems that I may have misunderstood what context -template does. I believed it is equal to categorizing, because writing {{context|nautical|lang=fi}} in the beginning of a line adds the term into fi:Nautical -category. I just thought it would not make sense to create, for example, a fi:Of a difficult situation or state of affairs -category. Did I worry in vain? Or would it be correct in this case to use italbrac instead of context? Hekaheka 22:25, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

It does both; if a parameter is a context label template (e.g. {{nautical}}), it will categorize (if and as appropriate). Other phrases do not create attempts at categorization, they are just formatted consistently. The functions have to be somewhat combined to do that formatting: using {{context|nautical}} {{italbrac|of a difficult situation}} produces (nautical) (of a difficult situation) which is not what is desired, we want (nautical, of a difficult situation) Robert Ullmann 13:42, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

FYI: in English it is Croatian. Robert Ullmann 13:33, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Please create separate entries and add {{delete}} to that combined one. --Connel MacKenzie 15:19, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Yep. It was an error in the first place. My intention was to write an article on ennakko, which is now complete. Hekaheka 15:25, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

OK, thank you...now zapped. --Connel MacKenzie 15:55, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi Hekaheka. I keep seeing people saying that we need more admins. Would you mind if I nominated you to be an admin? Dmcdevit·t 06:28, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Admins have the ability to rollback edits with a single click, delete pages, protect pages, block users, patrol edits, import edits, and a few other smaller things. Note that I don't think it matters whether you work with english articles at all, to be an administrator. Perhaps Help:Sysop tools will be helpful (w:Wikipedia:Administrators is a bit longer). w:Wikipedia:Advice for new administrators and w:Wikipedia:Administrators' how-to guide might also be useful reading, if you're interested. Dmcdevit·t 13:01, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi, you should become an admin. I'm surprised you're not yet. Do you want me to nominate you? --Anatoli 22:26, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Well, there have been suggestions to this end before. My comment remains the same: I have sufficient rights to do the editing that I want, and I do not see what additional value my adminship would bring to the project. I guess it would bring some additional responsibility as well? --Hekaheka 02:29, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

It's up to you, of course. You seem to be a responsible person, besides you know what is right and acceptable here. You don't really need to do extra work but if you see a wrong entry, you can delete it, you can block vandals, you can protect pages, otherwise you're just the editor as usual. --Anatoli 02:55, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

You need not take on more responsibility than you choose, except not to misuse the tools. It is occasionally efficient to roll back a vandal's contribution and block the apparent (usually obvious and hard-to-dispute) vandal. Protecting a page is another admin tool that can help. You are well-positioned to do this kind of thing for Finnish entries as well as English entries. For entries of either type you might be the first one to see a problem. As admin you can more efficiently correct it. DCDuring TALK 03:07, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

The hours are great, but the pay sucks. Maybe we can give you some barnstars if you accept nomination. :D ~ heyzeuss 09:29, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Is considered a standard, language specific header (see WT:POS). It is certainly needed for a number of languages other than English. As you probably know, English supposedly only has prepositions, the few exceptions are just considered irregular constructions, perfectly proper grammar nonwithstanding.

AutoFormat was mistakenly tagging this header right at the beginning, but would now remove the tag. aikana had never been tagged before (presumably you'd seen the tag elsewhere?) Robert Ullmann 11:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Terve. Eikös epäreilu ole todennäköisempi sanan alkuperä? Eihän kukaan käytä yleisesti sanaa epäoikeudenmukainen puhekielessä.--Jyril 16:44, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Jeps. Muutin. Hekaheka 19:56, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Ei ole KOTUSin mukaan oikein, hygieeninen-sanassa on pitkä e. Artikkeli epähygieeninen oli jo olemassa, joten yhdistin ne. Kannattaa käyttää KOTUS-sanalistaa, niin ei tule niin helposti virheitä. Se on myös kätevä derived/related terms jne. lisäämisessä.--Jyril 22:24, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok, kiitos. Enpä olisi tuota osannut epäillä, mutta niinhän tuo näyttää olevan. Hekaheka 22:27, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

walesin kieli If you check Nykysuomen sanakirja, you will find that wales, walesinkieli, kymri and kymrinkieli are synonyms. Hekaheka 15:51, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi! "Nykysysuomen sanakirja" is a very old book. Today, I think, "wales" is a dialect of English in Wales. The Cymraeg is in English the Welsh and in Finnish "kymri" or "kymrin kieli".

Pse, see gaeli and fi:skotti

J.haukela, alias--84.250.83.193 05:18, 14 September 2007 (UTC) --84.250.83.193 17:08, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Hekaheka, I can use your help. I want to make a Wikipedia account. At my job, the IP is blocked and I can't make an account there, and my computer's down at home, as it has been for a couple of weeks. Is there anyway I can get an account there? Bakura 05:29, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, I don't know what I could possibly do. In order to work with/edit Wikipedia and/or Wiktionary, the only thing you need is an internet connection, and that I cannot get for you. Hekaheka 09:12, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Let me know if I can help a bit with economics terms. I've got a lot of not-too-current economics books, Pearce's "MIT Dictionary of Modern Economics", some of the New Palgrave volumes. My intuitive sense of the terms can be a little hazy, if not wrong, as I was in the RfV page about "classical". "Marshallian" would be "neo-classical". "Classical" really does get back to Smith, Ricardo, Say, et al. I'm not wedded to any particular means of including economic terminology in Wiktionary, nor to any large-scale insertion of economic jargon into W. DCDuring 23:16, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi. I notice you add a lot of Finnish translations. Could you starting using the {{t}} template when you do so from now on please? Doing so links to the specific language section of the word, and includes a link to the entry for that word on its language’s Wiktionary (so {{t}} should also be used for words which are homographic translations). Thanks. † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 13:33, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Suomea kai sekin on, joten voisitko käyttää {{fi-noun}} etc. templaatteja? (Helsinki slang):in voi työntää {{context}}:iin jolloin siitä tulee standardin mukainen. Jotkut sanat, kuten duunari ja jeesata ovat jo niin yleiskieltä, että pelkkä "slang" tai peräti "colloquial" pitäisi riittää.--Jyril 19:00, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Mietin tätä itsekin, mutta slangi ei taivu kaikissa sijamuodoissa säännöllisesti, ja siksi päädyin tuohon simppeliin merkintään, jota muuten näkee melko paljon englanninkieliselläkin puolella. Varsinkin verbien taivutus on erilaista kuin yleiskielessä, infinitiivistä alkaen. Totta on myös, että monet slangisanat ovat levinneet yleiskieleen, mutta se ei tee niistä ei-slangisanoja. Ei minulla ole oikein kunnon ratkaisua sillekään. Context-templaatti antaa mahdollisuuden laittaa näppärästi molemmat määritykset samaan pakettiin, mutta meneekö liian raskaaksi? Hekaheka 19:07, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

No joo, ehkä taivutustemplaatit ei tässä kohtaa toimi (ainakin ne sanat jotka on mainittu KOTUSin listassa voisi kuitenkin taivuttaa)... Sen sijaan kannattanee käyttää kätevää {{infl}}-templaattia (syntaksi {{infl|fi|}}) jotta nämä sanat löytyvät oikeista kategorioista.--Jyril 21:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I just noticed that you are not a sysop, yet. Do you mind if I nominate you now? --Connel MacKenzie 05:14, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for asking. I take that as a sort of recognition of the work I'm doing. To the question itself: I do not think I'm interested, at least not right now. As an ordinary user I have all the editing rights that I currently want. Hekaheka 20:11, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Do tell us if you ever change your mind. It would be useful e.g. in editing protected templates, if the issue were to arise. DAVilla 14:26, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I tell you when I grow out of my current limits. Hekaheka 17:26, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Regarding ]: only sysops/admins can delete pages. —Ruakh_TALK 17:03, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

BGC, if I'm not mistaken, is books.google.com. Hope this helps! sewnmouthsecret 19:32, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Yep, it does. Thank you. Hekaheka 19:34, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

AKA: GBS = “Google Book Search”. † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 00:19, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Those definitions are not redundant in English. --EncycloPetey 22:09, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

No big deal, if you think so, but the entry is not good the way it is either. I did not write that all three are redundant, only "sexual receptivity", which is roughly the same thing as "interest in sexual activity" in def # 2. Of the other two (sexual identity and sexual orientation) I wrote that they seem to be partial definitions of the wider term "sexuality". To say that sexuality is sexual identity is like saying that sex is genitals. They are important but they are not the whole thing. I did some background research (as I normally do before venturing to edit English articles) and I could not identify other dictionaries that would include "sexual orientation" or "sexual identity" as a definition to "sexuality". Sexual orientation has also its own entry, which would seem to support my line of thinking. Are you sure that you were not too quick in your judgment? Hekaheka 22:33, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I am sure. This is a major issue where I live, and I have friends who specialize in gender studies. If a person asks about someone's sexuality, they may be asking about their sexual orientation, their gender identity, their sexual acitivity or any number of things. The word is synonymous with several more specific terms. The existence of those specific terms does not change the meaning of the synonym. --EncycloPetey 22:41, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

OK, I believe you. Can I still bother you to provide an example sentence onthe sense "sexual receptivity", or even for all the senses if you like? It would help me and probably many others in doing the translations. Hekaheka 07:29, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Please use {{t}} when entering your Finnish translations. All it takes is getting used to writing {{t|fi| instead of the ] — OK? Thanks. † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 22:44, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, bud. I have used it quite a lot, but it is not so easy to change one's old ways, and I tend to forget it at times. Hekaheka 22:51, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I understand. Sorry to be brusque. † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 22:57, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Please note that it isn't required, and straightforward cases will get updated by 'bot over time (no-one is going to do all of them by hand). Still a good idea, especially with multiple words or other cases. Robert Ullmann 23:26, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi,

I don't suppose you could look over my recent attempts to clean up -ja and -jä? I don't know any Finnish, so had to work with what was already there …

Thanks in advance!
—Ruakh_TALK 21:01, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Hei, lisäillessäni kategorioita huomasin, että olet englanninkielisillä horsetail-määrityksissä käyttänyt family-sanaa genus-sanan sijaan. Family on tässä merkityksessä ns. väärä ystävä, koskapa englannin family (lat. familia) tarkoittaa suvun (genus) sijaan heimoa.--Jyril 17:44, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Samperi, se oli ihan vahinko, tottakai juuri noin. Hyvä, kun huomasit. Hekaheka 17:51, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Please do not add translations to any language section except English. Translingual entries are... translingual. That means that they apply in multiple languages. There may also be a local colloquial equivalent, but they are not Translations. Transligual sections, by their very nature, should never have a Translations section, just as we do not put Translations sections in any language other than English. --EncycloPetey 15:58, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay EP: where then, does the (e.g. Finnish) name go? (the name of the species in a language, not necessarily "local" or "colloquial") Should be there somewhere. (And no, expecting someone to go through the English name of the species will not work, except in cases where English has a word that means specifically that exact species.) If not Translations, what? Robert Ullmann 16:06, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Note that at Hepaticae you simply blanked content; you didn't move it to liverworts. Not good. Robert Ullmann 16:09, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

There is an "official" Finnish term defined for every taxonomic family and other life grouping thereabove. A few examples from my botany book: Lycopodiaceae - liekokasvit, Selaginellaceae - mähkäkasvit, Isoëtaceae - lahnanruohokasvit , Hepaticae - maksasammalet etc. The Translingual terms are also used but they are generally only recognized by botanists. To my understanding there is no equivalent system in English. What should I do? Hekaheka 16:22, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

An aside: this isn't just Finnish; Hebrew has the same thing. —Ruakh_TALK 18:09, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Another example of the problem: aitotumainen ("true + nucleus + -ic") is a Finnish noun meaning "any species belonging to Eukaryota" and adjective meaning "belonging to Eukaryota". The plural of the word (aitotumaiset) also means "Eukaryota". How do I build an entry which helps a Wiktionary user to find the Finnish equivalent for "Eukaryota"? Hekaheka 16:42, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion, "translations" sections are OK for translingual entries if (and only if) there is no corresponding English term available. "Synonyms" section is fine if the synonymous term is also translingual (e.g. alternative taxonomic names) but it obviously doesn't work in the case of language-specific names (because "aitotumalliset" is not a synomym of "Eukaryota" in English). Simply not having links to language-specific articles is not a solution, nor is creating new types of headers.--Jyril 17:32, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

how can i help? --TheRaccoon 18:23, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Below are the links to the policies/guidelines that I think are relevant for the airline discussion (excluding the airline abbreviations, like SAS, TWA, Avianca, Qantas, Sabena, PanAm or Pan Am, Varig, LANChile, for which, arguably the abbreviation rules apply):

• Wiktionary:Criteria_for_inclusion#Names
• Wiktionary:Criteria_for_inclusion#Names_of_specific_entities
• Wiktionary:Criteria_for_inclusion/Brand_names

I almost think I understand this stuff, but the veterans here know it better. I hope I didn't waste my time on Lufthansa. Finnair seems harder, but the some of the same things that favored Lufthansa apply. From the PoV of an English-language author, it evokes IMHO "foreign", "international travel", "Cold War neutrality", "gateway to Russia/Soviet Union". American Airlines also seems harder because it is not an evocative name, not that useful for writers. And they might change brand name rules anyway. DCDuring 12:44, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Terve. Hieno homma, että olet selvittänyt KO:n englanninkieliset vastineet ja vielä noinkin laajasti. :) -- Frous 12:56, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi. That quote you removed was one I entered earlier today, having removed the original SoP. I am surprised you think it also SoP.

1. • I thought it was a bad joke. But I was wrong. What happened in Sarajevo was far worse than anyone could have predicted.
     Why? (If you don't mind me asking). - Algrif 19:04, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Of course I don't mind. It appears that the person telling the story had heard earlier about the mass murder in Sarajevo, but he did not believe it first. Instead, he believed it was a bad joke in its literal (SoP) sense. A bad joke defined in the gloss is "a situation that is badly planned, or illogical". I don't think anyone can believe that a mass murder is merely a badly planned situation. Hekaheka 19:16, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. I didn't check the source carefully enough. Cheers. - Algrif 12:19, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

For redirects, just speedy {{delete}} if it can't be turned into a real entry. RFD is for discussion, there's nothing to discuss about redirects. Mainspace redirects get shot on sight, unless they go to a multi-word idiom, the only exception I know of. Cynewulf 15:44, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Terve, viitsisitkö Tbotin käännöksiä tarkistaessasi korvata {{infl}}-templaatit {{fi-noun}} jne. templateilla niin artikkelit menevät oikeisiin luokkiin. Jälkikäteen onpi vaikea etsiä sanoja, joista taivutusmuoto puuttuu.--Jyril 18:17, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Joo, ilman muuta, kun kerran pyydetään. Luulin, että tämä infl-ym -muoto olisi jotenkin suositeltava. Teenpä nyt sillä tavalla, että korjaan "my contributions" -listan avulla tähän mennessä tekemäni tarkistukset. Lähes kaikkien pitäisi löytyä tällä tavalla, koska kirjoitan yleensä kommenttiriville "checked tbot entry". Hekaheka 18:22, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Minun ymmärtääkseni {{infl}} on tarkoitettu nimenomaan niitä kieliä varten, joilla ei ole omia header-templaatteja. Täytyy tunnustaa, että itseäni hieman vihlaisee käyttää epästandardimaisia templaatteja, mutta ovatpahan ainakin informatiivisempia.--Jyril 18:30, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for catching the error. I was so bent on spiking the probably spurious senses that I didn't notice that my cite had the word as a noun. At least it has sometimes been used as a verb in the embargo sense. DCDuring 17:50, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

It wasn't an error in the sense that the word seems to have also the verb sense "to lay an embargo" or "to embargo", but I didn't find an appropriate quote yet. Hekaheka 21:07, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Hei, pistä lang-parametrille arvo "Finnish" niin toimii. Ihan niin kuin {{plural of}}-templaatin kanssa (ks. esim. koirat). Adjektiivin tapauksessa käytä {{fi-form of}} -templaattia (suuret). Koska vertailumuodot taipuvat, käytä {{fi-adj}}-templaattia. Komparatiivia ja superlatiivia varten {{fi-adj}}-templaatissa on comparison=true -optio, jolloinka artikkeli ei listaudu Category:Finnish adjectives-luokkaan (kylmempi). Superlatiivilla sama juttu, tosin kannattaa muistaa, että se on identtinen monikon instruktiivin kanssa (sievin). Multiplikatiivi (-sti) on oma sanansa ja sen voi listata ====Derived terms==== -otsikon alle. Muista että silläkin on omat vertailumuotonsa, ks. {{fi-adv}} miten ne lisätään. {{comparative of}}-templaatilla on POS-parametri, jonka arvoksi voi laittaa adverb (kauniimmin; tai noun, vrt. rannempi!). Nominatiivia on ihan turha mainita missään, nominatiivin yksikkö on sana perusmuodossa ja monikko pelkkä plural (tämä koskee/pitäisi koskea kaikkia kieliä). Possessiivi- ja liitepartikkelimuodot voidaan lisätä {{fi-form of}}-templaattiin suffix=] -parametrilla. Näiden sanojen lisääminen sen sortin homma, että niitä ei kannata lisäillä kuin tapauksissa, joissa jokin toinen sana muistuttaa sitä (koskemme) tai se on hyvin yleinen (enkö).--Jyril 12:05, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Niin, ja vertailumuotojen taivutukset onnistuu {{fi-form of}}:lla, kunhan type=adjective-parametrin tilalle pistää adjective comparative/superlative.--Jyril 12:09, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Happy New Year! When you have a moment, could you please add Finnish and Swedish translations to the entry for hinder (both verb and adjective)? Do watch out for edit conflicts, though, since I'm asking several folks for help with this (including Jyril). --EncycloPetey 20:14, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Done. The textbook translation of to hinder is estää, which can always used without causing major misunderstanding. I added a couple of synonyms which deal with the different aspects of hindering. Hekaheka 21:12, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi! You checked Tbot's entry on setäpuoli, confirming that the word may have the meaning of "husband of someone’s paternal aunt", i.e. "isän siskon mies". Do you have sources for this? For me, "setäpuoli" could plausibly mean just "father's half-brother", and that's what most Google hits seem to refer to, too. Or did you just not check the entry carefully enough? Malhonen 23:13, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that there's nowhere to check. NSK (Nykysuomen sanakirja) does not know the word, and different people use it differently. My first thought was the same as yours, but when I checked at work around the coffee table, this definition (which is originally somebody else's; it has come here through the English entry uncle) got some support. The logic was that only a blood relative can be setä, and therefore "isän siskon mies" is a setäpuoli. Perhaps the right solution would be to add "setä" as synonym to the first sense, and write a user note saying that the actual usage of the term is ambiguous. Hekaheka 07:18, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I see. Can you cite a real-world example of somebody actually using the word in the sense of the aunt's husband? I mean that if you ask people of what the word might mean, they might start philosophizing and give you a definition they would never use in real life, even if it would make sense according to somone's logic. In my experience, what people really use, is either tädin mies, or in some people's speech setä (as in referring to a married couple as Maija-täti ja Kalle-setä). Malhonen 10:00, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I have not been able to find any source where the word "setäpuoli" had been explicitely defined, which means that neither interpretation can be proven right or wrong. Besides, if we accept the translation "paternal half-uncle", we accept a whole lot of even more distant relatives under the term "setäpuoli". Hekaheka 21:54, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, if you take a look at the Finnish Wikipedia article on Henry VI of England, you can see that "Henrik Beaufort" is supposed to be "Henrik V:n setäpuoli". After some research on the English Wikipedia I found out that Henry Beaufort's parents are John of Gaunt and Katherine Swynford, while Henry IV was born to John of Gaunt and Blanche of Lancaster. Henry V is the son of Henry IV and Mary de Bohun. That makes Henry Beaufort Henry V's father's half-brother. If Wikipedia could be used as a source here, this would make a good case on the meaning of "setäpuoli" as "father's half-brother". While the word hasn't been explicitly defined, you can easily deduce what its exact meaning is supposed to be. Any such examples in permanently recorded media? Malhonen 06:32, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Yep, that's right and this usage is covered by the "half-uncle" sense. The original problem was "husband of someone’s paternal aunt". So far we have not been able to determine whether he should be called setä, setäpuoli, tädin mies or isän siskon mies. My point is that there's no such definition to be found, and all are used by actual speakers. Hekaheka 08:07, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I understand and hadn't forgotten about the original question. My point in the previous comment was just that this Wikipedia example proves the definition of setäpuoli as one sort of a "paternal half-uncle" correct (a maternal half-uncle would presumably be "enopuoli"). But, I repeat, I have still never seen or heard any such example of somebody actually using the word in the sense of "paternal aunt's husband". There is a certain rationale behind the Wiktionary policy on including just words which can be attested. If it can't be attested, it's presumably too rare for Wiktionary anyways. (BTW, "tädin mies" gives several hundreds of Google hits, so that one is attested for "paternal aunt's husband" for the least.) Malhonen 05:25, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Käytä mieluummin esimerkkisanoja, jotka on listattu täällä. Siis samalla tavoin kuin nominaalien kanssa. Kaikkia esimerkkisanoja ei tosin ole vielä lisätty, mutta niitä on helppo löytää KOTUSin sanalistasta. --Jyril 17:05, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

hello HekaHeka do you know where i get finnish trans and put them here? --72.73.90.185 05:51, 8 February 2008 (UTC)--72.73.90.185 05:51, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't quite get you. What do you want to do? If you do not know Finnish, it's better you do not work with it, but concentrate in your own language instead. Would like to explain a little bit more in detail? Hekaheka 07:08, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi. Could you check the IP edits to this entry, please? They look suspect to me. -- Algrif 18:52, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

We keep "piped links" (with ]) around the names of languages that aren't generally well known. Galician, Asturian, Macedonian, Aromanian. Things like that. :) — opiaterein — 00:55, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi,

Thanks for your suggestion for "reindeer", and for not messing up the table :)

The term "herd" is correct, and is already there for "deer". Since a reindeer is a type of deer, I've added cross-references from "reindeer" (and from "roe deer") to "deer" to prevent unnecessarily duplication. If, in the future, anyone finds specific terms to replace these cross-references, they can of course add them. — Paul G 21:28, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I can't transcribe most Cyrillic. Could you finish the transciption in the etymology if you can? There actually does seem to be adjectival use of abeam, same meaning according to dictionary (MW3) and in line with cites. Because we are kind of rigid about PoS, we show both PoS's even thought there is little to be gained from doing so. I'm not in love with this appraoch, but it seems to be consistent with what Wt's been doing lately. DCDuring TALK 15:30, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Why not just put them in citation space? They are uses of the collocation. A couple are certainly illustrative of the etymology. DCDuring TALK 18:25, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Did as you suggested. Hekaheka 19:50, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

There's a BP discussion on Hebrew that may be of interest to you as a Finnish-entry author. See Wiktionary:Beer parlour#Treatment_of_other_types_of_compound_terms if you're interested.—msh210℠ 17:32, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Hello, I reverted your edit, the word is quite verifiable, see the etymology or look it up in the Oxford English Dictionary. WritersCramp 11:24, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Just to keep both of you up to date, I have merged the first five senses as they all meant the same thing. Conrad.Irwin 11:57, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Good, that's what I thought should be done. Hekaheka 18:41, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Could you express your thoughts on the adequacy or inadequacy of what we have done with offend? We haven't attested the senses, but have tagged them along the lines of your original tag comment. I'd like to see if it could be cleared, but not without good reason. DCDuring TALK 18:17, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Could you put some kind of statement at WT:RFV#offend ? DCDuring TALK 09:35, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Moro. Taisit korjata noiden termien suhteet. Mutta...ainakin minun tietääkseni Suomen laissa olisi toisen ihmisen kuoleman epäluonnoliselle aiheuttamiselle neljä eri rikosnimikettä, eli nuo kuolemantuottamus, surma, tappo, murha...vai onko rikoslain viimeisimmässä uudistuksessa, joka on toteutettu tietääkseni ihan viime vuosina, tapon tilalle tullut termi surma ja taposta luovuttu lakitekstissä? Kiitos, jos tiedät minua paremmin. :) -- Frous 05:08, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Selvä. Mutta miksi otit tapon murhan ja surman välistä, sillä surmahan on tappo lieventävien asianhaarojen vallitessa ja murha tappo jos se tehdään "vakaasti harkiten -- raa'alla tai julmalla tavalla" jenejene, eli tappo olisi törkeydeltään niiden välissä? Eri rikosnimikkeistähän on kuitenkin kyse (jos tappo tehdään -- tekijä on tuomittava murhasta, jolloin murha on rikosnimike), joten laitoin ne "törkeysjärjestykseen". -- Frous 09:23, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Ja vielä: minä käyttäisin (law)-kohdassa mielelläni käännöksissä myös tätä lähdettä (oikeuministeriön käännös — epävirallinen koska englantihan ei ole virallinen kieli Suomessa), korjasinkin tapon, surman ja kuolemantuottamuksen käännökset sen mukaisiksi. -- Frous 09:46, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Just as a quick note, in English the abbreviations "WWI" and "WWII", nor their expansions "World War I" and "World War II" do not take "the". In contrast "First World War" and "Second World War" do take "the". For example "in WWI" and "in World War I" but "in the First World War". Thryduulf 21:21, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Moikka. Mä vähä mietin tota sivua, sillä juomattomuushan on johtuu -uus-liitteellä negatiivisesta agenttipartisiipista juomaton...?? Ja täällähän on jo sivut -ma, -ton ja -uus. :P Turha sivu?? -- Frous 12:25, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Njaa. Sivu häilyy kyl mun mielest ihan sillä rajalla, mut ton suffiksirakenteen selvittämisen perusteel sivun vois kyl toistaiseks säilyttää. :) Jotenka jotenka...olisiko tähän tarkoitukseen hyvä luoda oma luokka tyyliin Finnish suffix clusters -mattomuuden kaltaisille takaliiterykelmille, jolloin -mattomuus kuuluisi vain tohon "erikoisluokkaan", joka olisi Finnish suffixes -luokan alaluokka? -- Frous 13:52, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Moikka taas, mä lueskelin näitä ja mun mielestä esille-sivulla olevat verbi–adverbi-parit ei sinällään täytä noita ns. idiomaattisuuskriteerejä (kts. kohta Idiomaticity) eli niille ei tulisi luoda omia sivuja, koska adverbin parina olevat verbit ilmaisevat liikettä ja adverbi jo sinällään on liikeadverbi jolla on konkreettinen ja kuvaannollinen merkitys (ja toi selitys on jo selitysrivillä). Mitä mieltä ite oot? Lisäks – tää on kyl vaan makuasia:) – mutta ite pitäisin esille-sivun viimesimmän version sanaparien esitystapaa esteettisempänä, mustaaminen tekee tekstist mun mielest vähä liian räikeen. En muista ootko sä tai kenties Jyril mustannu noita rivejä mut aattelin vaan selittää muokkauspolitiikkani, kun oon niitä ite muokannu mielestäni hienommiks. :) -- Frous 15:47, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Vastattakoon tähän: jos verbiin liittyvä adverbi tms. ei ole itsestäänselvää muotoa tai ne muodostavat idiomin, sanapari kuuluu lisätä erikseen. Niin kuin sanoit, taitaa olla vähän makuasia milloin ko. kriteerit täyttyvät. Esille-sanaa ei taida esiintyä muualla, joten kyllä verbi + esille -muotojen pitäisi läpäistä inkluusiokriteeri... Vältetään lihavointia, se rumentaa tekstiä, ja erityisesti kursivoitua lihavointia. Poikkeuksena sanat esimerkkilauseissa. --Jyril 18:48, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Please do not add links to example sentences given after definitions. --EncycloPetey 00:52, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

OK, thanks for advice.--Hekaheka 08:50, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Have you noticed the few new cleanup items listed at Wiktionary:Categorizing#Finnish? I can handle French, Latin, and even Turkish at times, but not Finnish, so your help would be appreciated. --EncycloPetey 06:43, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Most of them seemed to have at least a POS category (<fi-noun> etc.). I fixed the ones that didn't. Do you mean that there should be a category in addition to that? --Hekaheka 07:37, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Could you use the {{term}} template in etymology sections? Makes the text prettier... --Jyril 08:44, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe I ever edited those pages. Hyacinth 04:22, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

The pages have been deleted in October 2007, so it does not really matter. --Hekaheka 06:52, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Terve :) I wonder if you could help me translate a little Finnish. They're some old journal entries of my friend Leena who died. It's less than 1000 words. I just wondered, 'cause you're obviously interested in both languages. Equinox 23:56, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I've posted the text on my talk page. Thanks a lot for your help, and of course there's no urgency; just whenever you find some time. Equinox 13:52, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Your translation is fine. I appreciate it! Equinox 21:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

By the way, lankapuhelin ("wire phone") would be landline. Equinox 21:03, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, I'll add that to the Wiktionary. --Hekaheka 21:06, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm deleting the noun sense of evil laugh, as it's failed RFD. Note that käkätys is listed as a translation. I'm informing you, so that this info doesn't get lost completely.—msh210℠ 23:53, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

You've combined definitions pertaining to Ancient Greek culture with one pertaining to modern Greek culture. --EncycloPetey 06:25, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

OK now? --Hekaheka 10:01, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I just removed this definition, as I couldn't imagine how the noun dandy could be defined as the adjective foppish (and fop is listed among synonyms), but in the process I also removed the translation table for the definition, which contained two "red" Finnish words, so I wanted to let you know in case you wanted to treat them in some other way. --Duncan 23:11, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for info. Keikari means fop or dandy. Added an entry for it. --Hekaheka 07:23, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

In your edit you wrote: "removed a rare German translation beaten in Google by 150:1 by the one left". But to be correct, you removed the translation of video game console and left the translation of just game console. Spielkonsole => Videospielkonsole is exactly like game console => video game console. Mutante 08:04, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but according to the entry game console (and to my limited experience) "video game console" and "game console" are the same thing. If that's not correct, there is more fixing to do than just the German translation. Btw, also in English "game console" seems more widely used than "video game console", probably because the word "video" is redundant. --Hekaheka 08:13, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Hi, POS categories go to Category:{Language name} {POS} category (e.g. Category:Meänkieli nouns), topical categories to Category:{language code}:{Topic} (Category:fit:Birds). Use {{infl}} for POS categories so you don't have to type it by yourself. If the language code template (in this case {{fit}}) is missing the template breaks but you can fix it by creating a new code template by copying and modifying an existing one. --Jyril 19:01, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! --Hekaheka 20:23, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

This has already been discussed in the Tea Room. the conclusion was that the noun senses are overwhlemingly capitalized, even if the particular quote chosen for illustration is not. --EncycloPetey 07:28, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I see. I did not know that. I checked other dictionaries and they seemed to prefer the non-capitalized form. I'll reverse that part soon. Please don't just undo everything I did, there were other changes which I believe are valid. --Hekaheka 07:33, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Damn it, you did it already. The adjective sense and Finnish translations are gone. --Hekaheka 07:36, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Your capitalization and translation additions should still be there. You had removed the adjective translations yourself. The adjective should be un-capitalized. --EncycloPetey 07:36, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I've put the adj translations on the philistine page. The interwiki links were wrong too (from when the page was moved), so I corrected those as well. --EncycloPetey 07:48, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually, we use the language name Azeri, not Azerbaijani. See {{az}}. --EncycloPetey 01:03, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Hm, but there's also a language code for Azerbaijani, azb. --Hekaheka 01:10, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

We prefer the 2-letter code when there is one. The code "azb" is only for the southern dialect of the langauge. --EncycloPetey 01:11, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Ok, good to know. According to Robert Ullman's list there are 83 Azerbaijani translations in the English entries. I suppose it's better to change them to Azeri, if I ever see them? --Hekaheka 01:16, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, although Robert is equipping AF to make these changes for us. I looked at the edit history for {{azb}}; an anon had changed it, so I have restored the form we use, and have protected the template to avoid this problem in future. --EncycloPetey 01:19, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

This is just a "thank you" message for all the translations you add to the Word of the Day each day. Few other contributors have so consistently helped to improve these entries, and I wanted you to know that all your work is appreciated. --EncycloPetey 06:06, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for encouragement, it's always nice to get some. --Hekaheka 09:20, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi. There are two cities in Russia. Rostov-na-Donu is a centre of a region and Rostov is a smaller town. I checked Wikipedia, the Finnish version says Rostov-na-Donu as well. Kiitos. --Anatoli 13:07, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment, but very few people actually say or write Rostov-na-Donu in Finland. On the maps and news (seldom, I need to admit) it seems to be almost always Rostov. The criteria of Wiktionary and Wikipedia are slightly different. Wikipedia tries to be absolutely correct and unambiguous, whereas Wiktionary tries to catch the language that people actually use, with all its ambiguities. For your other point, it's not so uncommon that several localities share one name. As an example, there are two Helsinkis in Finland, and I believe there are about 23 Barcelonas in the world. --Hekaheka 13:47, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

What you are saying is common for any language, Rostov-na-Donu is also called colloquially Rostov in Russia, especially in Rostov-na-Donu itself and it is the centre of Rostov oblast but it's necessary to make this distinction between Rostov in Yaroslavl oblast and Rostov-na-Donu. --Anatoli 22:10, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Please do not use {{top}}, {{mid}} and {{bottom}} for translation sections. These templates are deprecated because they conflict with ISO language codes. Instead, use {{trans-top}}, {{trans-mid}} and {{trans-bottom}}. -- Prince Kassad 13:51, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

OK --Hekaheka 14:07, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm just drunk and curious. Does this name have a meaning in Finnish? P.S. Your English is excellent. I would not previously have imagined any non-native speaker saying "___ look like clear keepers to me". Equinox ◑ 23:00, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

It's just my nickname doubled, like Jack > Jackjack. Well, and thanks for the compliment. --Hekaheka 23:12, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi, I have made some changes to the inflection templates as you have probably already noticed. The inflection type is now seen on the table header if it is included is set in the template (see karhu for example). I have also started moving the relevant Wiktionary:Finnish inflection types/nouns pages to Appendix:Finnish declension types (cf. Appendix:Finnish declension types/valo). One page/template should be enough. I also created a pseudo inflection table for entries that don't need own inflection tables ({{fi-decl-see}}, cf. hallinto-oikeus). --Jyril 13:08, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, and fi-decl-see is a great innovation. --Hekaheka 15:22, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

No offence but I don't like the ides of {{fi-decl-see}}. Even if we have a Finnish word "x" with declension and another word which is simply "y+x" I still think that "y+x" should be treated equally. 50 Xylophone Players talk 12:16, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Interesting. Why do you think so? BTW, "if" in your comment is unnecessary. As far as I know the template is only used with compound terms, i.e. words that are of the form w = y+x. --Hekaheka 17:06, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I guess for ease of finding things for everybody that uses this site; something slightly like the reason that it has been agreed that romaji entries are a must for Japanese. Although, romaji is really included because it isn't just transliteration of Japanese. If somebody comes along who knows nothing about Finnish (or perhaps any language using cases for that matter) who for some reason decides to type in the word tilinylitysten they won't know that it's the genitive plural of tilinylitys (heck, they might not even know what genitive means). 50 Xylophone Players talk 18:02, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

P.S. I might be leaning towards agreeing to its use in entries like Jyril's example.

We will never be able to serve well someone who knows nothing about Finnish. The inclusion of all forms of all Finnish words, including compound terms, is a huge task. I have estimated that there are about 20 million different forms, if one does not count the variation caused by suffixes, of which the most important ones are possessive suffixes and the interrogative suffix -ko. Taking only these into account one by one would increase the number of noun and adjective forms alone to more than 40 million. Other suffixes and the combinations thereof would easily bring the total to more than 100 million. The verb forms would probably double this figure. --Hekaheka 23:31, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm, I think didn't think enough before saying what I did. Anyway, perhaps a more relevant point is the fact that considering that according to the website ethnologue there are 6,912 languages, by "signing up" to being an omnilingual dictionary we have already agreed to include billions of entries. So, form ofs like these and toponyms (which I am going to strongly fight for the inclusion of) are just another drop in the bucket as someone said here in a similar argument. 50 Xylophone Players talk 07:43, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

But many of these 6912 languages are scarcely attested, exempli gratia there are only three extant words from Vandal. There are numerous other examples as well. So we can't count for an average 10^6 words from each language, especially considering the fact that many of them are nor written. The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 07:48, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Even so 295 languages (obviously not the real total but that which is given on our main page) is a lot (even excepting the few we may have which exist today as mere virtually forgotten shards of what they once were), since hypothesising that we have entries for 295 languages which are alive and well, going from your average figure it amounts to 295x10^6 entries. 50 Xylophone Players talk 12:39, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

I think this discussion is growing to a policy question, and deserves to be discussed on a wider forum. I will bring it to the Beer Parlour in near future, probably next weekend. --Hekaheka 05:16, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

As somebody (probably Jyril) has changed the Finnish declension templates so that they do not create 30 red links every time they are applied this discussion is not required anymore. Using {{fi-decl-see}} does not provide any benefits over the declension type-specific templates. --Hekaheka 16:24, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Ugh, just a plea: when you're not adding declension/conjugation tables, could you please use the {{fi-noun}} etc. templates? They will add the hidden Category:Finnish nouns that lack declension type categories, otherwise it is really hard to find the incomplete entries. When the tables exist, we should use the standard {{infl}} templates... Or, even better, we could create new maintenance templates which add those categories. --Jyril 17:11, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism is not a ticket for insulting users. Just let them do their work, they'll be blocked shortly anyway. No need to bother with them. -- Prince Kassad 08:43, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Hello Hekaheka -- Many thanks for this contribution. It is gratifying and reassuring to see that the distinct senses of morality which I entered in English translate into distinct senses and terms in Finnish. Thanks again. -- WikiPedant 16:17, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, and thanks for the great job in writing the English definitions. It is not always easy to understand the difference between alternative definitions, but in this case they were clear. The citations were very useful. --Hekaheka 21:06, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Could I convince you to take a look at Category:English proverbs? We don't seem to have any particular criteria by which items enter this category or are excluded from it. Judging from the discussion at WT:BP#Place names it seems increasingly clear that almost anything that might be of interest for translation is a candidate for inclusion. To keep us from being overrun we would like to have some easy-to-apply criteria that keep out junk, preferably allowing patrolers to speedy delete things with a clear rationale and not require extended discussion at either RfD or RfV. I don't know whether we would want to include the patriotism quote or not. If you'd like we could use the RfD process to get some opinion on this, from which we might infer what the sense of the community was. I have been working through the English L3/PoS headers Proverb, Phrase, Idiom, and Interjection to try to make some sense of what is there. DCDuring TALK 11:02, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

So it's you who has been promptly completing the Finnish translation requests! Well done! One question though - why did you put "n.a." under TESL? Tooironic 14:17, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I did it because there's no Finnish acronym that would mean Teaching English as a Second Language, nor was I able to find a Finnish text where the acronym TESL would have been used. Therefore I concluded that the translation does not exist. If anyone needed that term in Finnish, he or she would say englannin opetus toisena kielenä, but would certainly not abbreviate it as EOTK. --User:Hekaheka July 31 2009

Interesting. I'm very much in the dark about European language translations, but with Chinese at least, there are no equivalent acronyms (well, abbreviations really, considering its an ideographic language), so I just put down a literal translation of what it means ("Teaching English as a Second Language"). At least this way a Chinese reader would understand the meaning of the word TESL. I wonder if that approach work in Finnish as well? Tooironic 01:04, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

That's one possibility, but I don't know what's our policy in this respect. Also, I don't know how useful a word-by-word translation would be. An interested user can easily do it himself by combining teaching + English + as a + second + language. But feel free to copy my translation from above, if you think it would be useful.

Another aspect is that the term TESL is not fully understood by its parts even in English. According to Wikipedia article TESL refers to the methods and programs for "teaching English to students whose first language is not English and who live in a region where English is the dominant language and natural English language immersion situations are apt to be plentiful". Another acronym - TEFL - is used of the method for teaching English as a foreign language in a non-English speaking environment. This explains why the concept does not seem to exist in Finnish, not at least in the Finnish spoken in Finland (perhaps the Finnish American community has a word for it, but if they do, is it to be classified as Finnish or Finglish?). Anyway, I will add a gloss and Pedia link to the article on TESL. --Hekaheka 07:06, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Could you please tidy this page someone just created? It's using en-noun instead of the appropriate Finnish template, and the plural is wrong. Equinox ◑ 18:22, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Done --Hekaheka 18:36, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

By the way, I don't suppose you know any good resource (preferably something professionally made, with audio) for learning Finnish from English, do you? I was hoping to get the Finnish Rosetta Stone, but they don't have one, annoyingly. Equinox ◑ 21:58, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

The University of Helsinki runs courses in "Finnish for foreigners". They have produced this material for self-study: . Let me know what you think about it. You can find more by googling "Finnish for foreigners online". Good luck and patience! According to the US Foreign Office, Finnish is one of the toughest languages for an American to learn. --Hekaheka 22:24, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I've finally got started with that Web site. At least the pronunciation makes sense. Equinox ◑ 14:47, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

to continue getting off the subject, an excellent website for grammar is here: Heyzeuss 15:54, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Alas, I don't seem to have got far with this. OTOH, I now own a "teach yourself Finnish" book (which I've so far avoided, because it starts with everyday phrases and I would prefer to dive into the grammar) and an en/fi dictionary. I was trying to translate a news article, one word at a time, as a beginner exercise, but it was very hard. Erm I can do the pronunciation too. Baby steps. Equinox ◑ 00:32, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

thanks for adding the new article. when i began learning finnish, this was the first word (of many) that i couldn't find in my dictionary. the structure of the language is such that a dictionary is quite useless without some knowlege of the morphology. Heyzeuss 13:33, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind notice. It's good to see that somebody is interested in what one is doing. --Hekaheka 05:24, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Also, thank you for adding kermanekka. Heyzeuss 15:37, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

You wrote (on Finnish requested entries): "nam = yum, yummy? Nam is an interjection, thus yum is better." But what is the problem with interjections? They count as words, right? Equinox ◑ 22:10, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

No problem with interjections, of course. I meant that the interjection 'yum' is a better translation for the interjection 'nam' than the adjective 'yummy'. Hekaheka, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Please do not use this except when two words are exact synonyms. The words "brownnose" and "flatter" are NOT exact synonyms. --EncycloPetey 05:05, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi Hekaheka,

Could you take another look at this edit? I don't understand why you removed sense #2, and your change to the logic expression makes it a much less meaningful example IMHO. (TBH, I'm kind of tempted to just roll back the change …)

—Ruakh_TALK 13:54, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

OK, I'll take a look, but right now I got to go somewhere else. Whatever you do, don't revert the formula in usage notes. It was simply wrong. --Hekaheka 14:03, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

No, it was quite correct. (Maybe you're confusing → (“implies”) with ↔ (“if and only if”)?) —Ruakh_TALK 14:20, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

All right, I reverted the definitions, although I don't see how they were better. My understanding was that "exclusive disjunction" and "exclusive or" are slightly different things, the latter being an operator or connective that produces the former, but as a non-native I don't want to argue about it. The idea of my editing was that the definitions of exclusive or and inclusive or should be construed in the same way. But I still claim that the formula was incomplete as it was. Exclusive or does not specify which of the two elements is correct. The formula only covered the "x and not y" -case, but omitted the "y and not x" -part. --Hekaheka 21:40, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I've been adding these to some entries I've been working on if they seem interesting and good enough to be provide a stable base for translations in my opinion. Have they been adequate in your opinion? DCDuring TALK 13:05, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the advice. However, it appears that I was wrong in the first place. The undesired functioning of assisted translation with a trreq-template does not depend on leaving or not leaving the space. It seems that the only way to make it work with multiple translations is to add the first translation, then update the page and continue only after that with additional translations. --Hekaheka 13:56, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

The culprit may actually be the colon that you tend to add after trreq-templates. I just did two trreqs which didn't have the colon and did not encounter any problems. --Hekaheka 21:34, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Hi there. Did you mean to make the derived terms listed of samperi the same as the title of the entry? Cheers, Razorflame 04:23, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Nope. Thanks for noticing. --Hekaheka 08:19, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

No problem. Cheers, Razorflame 20:11, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeah just watch CSI or another police series, they use 'slug' all the time. Mglovesfun (talk) 17:27, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

They might, but in many countries foreign TV series are dubbed. I think one should not assume too many things when working with a dictionary. --Hekaheka 17:30, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Hi, nice to see you've stayed active. :) A few suggestions:

1. Could you use etymology templates such as {{term}}, {{compound}}, {{prefix}}, {{suffix}}, and {{confix}}? They also include the relevant categories (see bioyhteensopivuus, bioyhteensopiva, kahvipapu). Please don't add links in {{infl}} template unless there's spaces/hyphens (in which case please do that.) I started that habit, sorry for that. Much better to use the compound template in etymology section. Genitive forms can be retained by using alt1= parameter (kahvinpapu: {{compound|kahvi|alt1=kahvin|papu|lang=fi}}). In the cases where there is no clear root we can use alt1= parameter and empty section (agressiivinen: {{suffix||alt1=aggressiivi-|inen|lang=fi}}). I think the {{prefix}} template should be limited to words that are clearly suffixes and have no basic forms (ylä-, etu-, epä-, nano-, ...). --Jyril 11:21, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
2. The {{etycomp}} is complicated and redundant, I'm going to remove it. Any help of converting it into the above-mentioned templates is appreciated.

   There are no Finnish entries left using this template, but there are almost 150 in other languages, mainly Irish. It seems to have some virtue after all. --Hekaheka (talk) 14:23, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

3. When you use inflection templates, could you include whole gradation in the gradation section (e.g., {{fi-decl-valo|ka|tt|t|o}} instead of {{fi-decl-valo|kat|t||o}}). I think it is a "righter" way to do, different ways could be problematic if for example a bot is used to determine the gradation type. Also, note that I changed {{fi-conj-tulla}} so that the internal 'e' is no longer located in the gradation section ({{fi-decl-tulla|teeske|nn|nt|e|l|ä|y|ö}} etc.).
4. I think ===Alternative spellings=== section should be reserved for words which only differ from spelling (shakki, šakki, sakki). Words that are otherwise identical should go under ===Alternative forms=== (and that means many different similarities such as kahvipapu, kahvinpapu; omenoiden, omenoitten; steriloida, sterilisoida). Thanks. --Jyril 11:21, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi there Hekaheka. Which part of speech is the declension for the word rakentava? Thanks, Razorflame 14:29, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Same declension is valid for both the participle and the adjective. That's why I put it before both. User:Hekaheka 14:55, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

So if one were to create a form of entry from this declension table, what would they write? Would they write both Adjective and Verb headings with the same information? Razorflame 15:02, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, a good question. Participles behave in a sentence as if they were adjectives, i.e. they follow the number and case of the word which they qualify, and are often comparable. Some, as for example rakentava, have come to mean something that is not directly inferable of their quality of being participles, and consequently they are regarded as adjectives or, in some cases, nouns (ex. kuollut) in their own right. The line between them is anything but clear. I think the form of -entries could be written for the participle alone, but some other approach might be as justified. Maybe we should ask User:Jyril, if he has an opinion on this. --Hekaheka 18:13, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Eh, I barely followed what you were saying because I'm not a big educated person. I'm a student still learning. Anyways, yes, I think we should ask Jyril about it because he might know something. Cheers, Razorflame 18:18, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, it is a matter of taste where we put the inflection template(s). The example is ok for me except that I would put it behind the adjective as L3 header. --Jyril 05:41, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi there Hekaheka. Can you add the declension template to the page that I just created? Thanks, Razorflame 06:13, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

For rakentavin, I decided to just say that it was the instructive plural of the adjective, which is true, but because of the problem above, I was not sure about whether or not to include the participle declension on the same page. By the way, can you add the declension table to that page, too? Razorflame 06:22, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

So I just made this entry, and I am having trouble figuring out which declension it would use. I know that words that end in -i use -rist, right? What does a word like pakettidata use? Thanks, Razorflame 06:37, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry to bother you again, but did I select the correct declension table for this word? Thanks, Razorflame 06:45, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I'll check this and the previous one later, because I've got to go now. Awaiting this, another aspect: I don't think one should add too many entries in a language that one knows little of. It would be better to add trreq-templates in the translations sections of the English entries, as is used e.g. in the entry inoffensive. I check Finnish trreq's regularly. --Hekaheka 06:48, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Don't worry. I only wanted to see if I could select the correct declension template for an entry, which I believe I did. Anyways, I'll stop adding Finnish words now :). Cheers, Razorflame 06:50, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

The declension is right but I'm not sure about the translation. I would normally translate "imperishable" as pilaantumaton. To continue the discussion above, the declension rules may be quite tricky. Compare e.g. muki and tuki or vastaus vs. kalleus. --Hekaheka 22:26, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I used a single translation service for the translation, so the translation might be incorrect, but I used the same translation for pakettidata, which evidently was the right translation, so maybe it could be correct. Anyways, thanks for the massive amount of help so far :). Cheers, Razorflame 18:53, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

By the way, I wrote the entry for pilaantumaton :). Razorflame 22:10, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

How did I do on pilaantumaton? Cheers, Razorflame 06:09, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

A grammatical question that you might be able to help with: Wiktionary:Feedback#paljon. —Stephen 06:02, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Done --Hekaheka 08:10, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi there. On Jyril's talk page, I asked this question: I looked at the pieni declension index and it said that it was used on the nominals that ended in -ri, however, Jyril said that grammari would be a paperi declension type instead of pieni declension type. Can you please explain to me why paperi is used instead of pieni? Thanks, Razorflame 20:31, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

There's really no explanation of the kind which one could formulate as a rule. As I tried to show with the muki vs. tuki -example above, two words that look almost the same may be inflected differently. I, as a native speaker, know which is which but I honestly cannot give any rational reason why there should be this difference. That's why I want to give this advice again: don't mess with languages that you don't know. I understand that some other people have given to you this advice before! --Hekaheka 20:38, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm trying to learn Finnish, though, so I really want to learn things, and I feel like this is a good way to learn things about the language. Razorflame 20:39, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, maybe I was too harsh. You said you were looking at the examples, and did not understand why there was this difference, and this provoked the question, which is all right of course. Let's try to look it this way: the explanation means that some words ending with -ri may be inflected that way, but it does not mean all words ending -ri should be inflected that way. --Hekaheka 20:43, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Ok. I looked on the appendix sections for both risti and paperi and found that risti is used with -i ending words that have two syllables, whereas paperi is used with -i ending words that have three syllables. Am I right? Razorflame 20:48, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid it's not as simple as that. Nuori has two syllables but is inflected like pieni, whereas vuori is inflected like pieni in one sense and like risti in the other, and muori is always of risti -type. --Hekaheka 21:10, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I see. Finnish is complicated :o. I think I'll just leave Finnish alone for now :) Razorflame 21:14, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

"High school graduate" is a broad definition. American high schools include university-bound students as well as vocation oriented students. Some American students just take harder classes and get better grades. A high-school diploma is not as prestigious as a lukio diploma. Having said that, I don't recommend changing the gloss.

What are the Finnish words for a graduate of ammattikoulu, a graduate of ammattikorkeakoulu, a lukio diploma, an ammattikoulu diploma, and an ammattikorkeakoulu diploma?

Heyzeuss 21:49, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

That's a bit complicated. Officially ammattikoulu does not exist anymore (see usage note in ammattikoulu). There's no one word for its graduates, but the term depends on the field of study. Some typical degrees are: lastenohjaaja, merkonomi, datanomi, automekaanikko, asentaja, metsuri, hammasteknikko, lähihoitaja and kokki .

The graduates of ammattikorkeakoulu are also named by professional field to e.g. tradenomi, insinööri, agrologi, sairaanhoitaja, kätilö, rakennusmestari. Officially, the titles include the abbreviation AMK in brackets, e.g. "restonomi (AMK)".

By finishing a lukio one earns a lukion päättötodistus as a diploma, which is completed by ylioppilastutkintotodistus or more simply ylioppilastodistus when one passes the national matriculation examination (ylioppilastutkinto). An ammattikoulu diploma is also called päättötodistus, and from ammattikorkeakoulu one gets an ammattikorkeakoulun tutkintotodistus or more simply tutkintotodistus.

Gosh, what a number of redlinks! --Hekaheka 06:52, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Not that I really know how to find them, but I've found some articles that just use :see foo instead of this template. Do replace them if you can find them. Cheers. Mglovesfun (talk) 11:16, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

OK. --Hekaheka 13:17, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi there. Can you add the definition for heliometri (in Finnish). It means heliometer. Thanks, Razorflame 20:40, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Done. --Hekaheka 20:57, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks :) Razorflame 21:15, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi there. Can you please make this entry here? Thanks, Razorflame 18:08, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for making this entry :) Razorflame 22:34, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi there Hekaheka. Can you please make harjoitusliike for me please? I need to know what this word means so that I can know what the English equivalent of the word is so that I can add it on another Wiktionary. Thanks, Razorflame 22:34, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the English equivalent. Maybe you'll know when I explain. The word is a compound of harjoitus (“exercise”) + liike (“movement”), and it means a body movement which is performed mainly for the purpose of training, such as movements performed by an athlete when he/she develops his/her body for the sport, or a movement that is particularly suitable to develop a certain muscle. A man interested in the looks of his body may perform long series of harjoitusliike to develop his abs. --Hekaheka 06:41, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

That sounds an awful lot like what we call a "repetition". A repetition is a set movement that is made during an exercise. For example, one makes 10 repetitions of lifting a ten pound dumbbell over his shoulder. Does that sound like what that word might mean? Razorflame 08:26, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure. Repetition is toisto in Finnish, but for example "lifting a ten pound dumbbell over one's shoulder" is a harjoitusliike, which can be performed only once or repeated several times. An example bit of conversation might go like this:

• Mitä harjoitusliikkeitä olet tehnyt tänään? - Nostelin viiden kilon painoja ja tein punnerruksia. --Kuinka monta toistoa teit? --- Kaksi kahdenkymmenen sarjaa kumpaakin.
  • Which X have you done today? - I lifted ten pound dumbbells and did push-ups. -- How many repetitions did you do? --- Two sets of twenty of each. --Hekaheka 09:28, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Could "X" simply be called exercise motion? If it can, is "repetition" a synonym to it? --Hekaheka 09:37, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, X could be called exercise motion. I'm not sure if repetition is a synonym to it, though. Cheers, Razorflame 09:47, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I think the difference is that "repetition" is an act of performing an "exercise motion". The Finnish translations would thus be toisto and harjoitusliike. --Hekaheka 09:50, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Razorflame 10:13, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi there Hekaheka. There isn't a need to add the {{infl| before the fi-noun template because fi-noun template by default automatically puts out the same thing as the inflection template. Just thought that I would let you know, Razorflame 10:35, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

The effect is not exactly the same. There's a watchdog which creates a list of Finnish nouns lacking declension tables. It recognizes the pages which carry the plain <fi-noun> -template as not having a declension table. On the other hand I think it's a good idea that you continue using <fi-noun>, <fi-adj> etc. because I'd like to check that you have chosen the correct declension template for each entry. As I demonstrated earlier, the choice of declension template can be a tricky business. There are even words which have two declensions depending on the meaning, like e.g. kuusi and vuori --Hekaheka 10:47, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I know. I'm talking about changing them on entries that already have declension tables. For example: this, this, and this. I wouldn't bother with the ones lacking them. Cheers, Razorflame 10:50, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Ok, but the template <fi-noun> puts them to the list anyway, and I want to keep the list empty! --Hekaheka 11:13, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, by adding the inflection line, you still are adding them to the category. I am sure that Conrad.Irwin could easily whip you up a list of all Finnish nouns that are lacking declension if you ask him nicely. We really need to get the fi-nouns and the templates used on those pages standardized. Razorflame 11:14, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Conrad.Irwin said he would be able to generate a list of Finnish nouns that lack a declension table. Would that be of assisstance for you? Razorflame 11:59, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Conrad.Irwin has generated the list at User:Conrad.Irwin/Finnish_nouns. This lists all instances of the inflection line template without a declension table on it. This should help you out quite a lot :) Razorflame 17:23, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

It really does. Thanks a lot. --Hekaheka 19:30, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

No problems :). Now can we talk about the stanardizing of the rest of the Finnish nouns? EP brought up a good point in the BP post I made in that not every noun should be switched over, and I proposed that we make a list of some Finnish noun entries that don't work with the {{fi-noun}} template. Razorflame 19:32, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I would want to involve User:Jyril into any discussion about standardizing Finnish entries. He's really the Finnish guru here who has written the inflection templates etc. Besides, he's an admin and I'm not. Regards, --Hekaheka 19:38, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Of course Jyril will be involved in the discussion :). I wouldn't want him not to be :). By the way, have you ever thought about running for adminship? I've been watching you over these past few months, and I think that you make a pretty good candidate. I would be willing to nominate you if you so desired. Razorflame 19:40, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Hey there. What is my username translated into Finnish? I'm talking about the word razor like a knife and a flame (noun) like a big fire or a flame on a candle. Thanks, Razorflame 11:45, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Razor is partaveitsi and flame is liekki. --Hekaheka 12:08, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the translation :) Razorflame 12:10, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi, example sentences are formatted without a bullet:

#: ''Example sentence''

rather than

#:* ''Example sentence''

See also WT:ELE#Example_sentences. --Dan Polansky 12:56, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Got that, thanks for advice. --Hekaheka 11:10, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Hello there Hekaheka. I would like to nominate you for adminship here on the English Wiktionary. I believe that you will do good in the role of administrator here. Please let me know on my talk page if you would like me to nominate you or if you don't want me to.

No, I'm not interested in becoming an admin. I've been asked that before, but my current status allows me to do everything that I want to do. --Hekaheka 11:09, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Very well. Thank you for the consideration, nonetheless :) Razorflame 20:13, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

How about now?  :-) ​—msh210℠ (talk) 16:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Also, when you make a new page, could you please make sure that you say, for example, instead An airplane. for the Finnish word for airplane if you could make it just airplane without an a/an or a period at the end? Translation entries are usually not formatted in sentences, so there isn't any reason to format them as such. Cheers, Razorflame 14:01, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Do you still not want to be an admin? You are really more deserving than any other non-admin, just so you know. --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 05:43, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi there Hekaheka. This word exists on the Ido Wiktionary, and I am at a loss as to what it means? What exactly does it mean? Based on the Ido word that it is attached to, okulofundo, I am guessing that it means something around eyelid, but I am not too sure. Okulo means eye in Ido, while fundo means bottom, and the closest thing that I could think of that means eye bottom would be eyelid. Am I correct in my assumptions? Thanks, Razorflame 20:42, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for writing this entry! It helped me fill in the English translation over on the Ido Wiktionary! I've got another word that isn't defined here that would be helpful to have defined here because it might allow me to add the English translation over on the Ido Wiktionary: avunpyyntö. Thanks, Razorflame 01:08, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi there Hekaheka. I noticed that the entry iljanne lists kaljama as a synonym, but kaljama does not list iljanne as a synonym. Could you add a synonym section to kaljama please? Thanks, Razorflame 01:47, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks again for the help! Cheers, Razorflame 01:07, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi there Hekaheka. If I were to start writing sentences in Finnish, would you be willing to look over them every once in a while and make corrections to them as necessary? It would help me out a lot to know what exactly I would be doing wrong so that I can fix it. Thanks again, Razorflame 13:58, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

In principle, yes. In practice, it depends on the quantity of work required. The best way to do this might be that you write in English what you want to say, then give your best effort to do the same in Finnish, and then I check it. Let's try how it goes. --Hekaheka 14:18, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

That is how I have done it with Italian: User:Razorflame/Italian sentences and that was the way that I was going to do so anyways. I'll let you know when I have written some Finnish sentences that might need corrections when I write them. Cheers, Razorflame 14:37, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I am going to put this on hold for now because I am going to focus on Italian for now. I will come back around to work with Finnish at a later point in time, though. Cheers, Razorflame 02:33, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Hello Hakaheka I notice that you are almost every day an earlier bird than me! I try to « bring my stone » (as we say in french) by translating the « Word of the day » in latin tongues (fr,es,it) whenever I can, since I am interested in tongues, am said to have a somewhat extended vocabulary, & get a lot of dictionnaries.

Semperblotto (and in a less curtly way Mgloves) has given me some brief advices, but I am often at a loss...

Since they seem so very busy, could you give me some tips? I should like to understand

• why do very usual words, which exist in little dictionnaries, appear in red ? (like the french « exécration » for the english « imprecation ») ?

It's simply that nobody has so far written an entry for exécration. This is a completely volunteer project, and there is no program or plan that would dictate the order in which entries are written. There are more than 50.000 Finnish entries and I still encounter very common words that are missing. --Hekaheka 08:41, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

• why have my translations often disappeared some days later , even when blue ?

Probably because somebody thinks they are wrong. By studying the history of an entry you can find out who removed your translation and ask from him, why he did it. Sometimes when I use "preview" I forget to save the result. This may also explain at least some of the disappearances. --Hekaheka 08:41, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

• « Semper » wrote to me that I « could add several words at the same time » , but when I do so, a text appears ordering me to add a coma by clicking here - or the words are red.

I don't understand your question. Are you referring to assisted translation? If one adds several translations into a single sense, one has to add the translations one at a time by clicking "Preview translation" between each word. If the translation consists of several words, then write the whole translation and click "Preview translation". At least most of the times the program accepts it without complaints. --Hekaheka 08:41, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Pardon me for the inconvenience, thanks in advance Arapaima 07:47, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Ok Hk, so it's much clearer . Thanks a lot! Arapaima 11:03, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi there Hekaheka. Does aatomipomm sound like the right translation in Eesti for atomic bomb? I found it on the Eesti Wiktionary, and I wanted to make sure that it was correct before it got added. Thanks, Razorflame 02:32, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

An entry should not be made on the basis that "it sounds right". Why do you want to add an entry in a language you don't know in the first place? --Hekaheka 07:52, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree. An entry should be made only if it is the correct translation. Since you have on your userpage that you are an et-1 user, I decided to ask you about it because I thought that you knew more about it than I did. Razorflame 18:10, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi there. May I have your permission to make form-of entries for the Finnish entries that you add (the forms in the declension table)? Thank you, Razorflame 08:43, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't know. I believe this should be a policy question. Finnish word forms are so numerous (10 million at the very least, not counting the possibilities that various suffixes give) that adding them systematically probably would not make sense. I have tried to limit form-of entries to a) most common words b) forms that may cause confusion and c) forms that have acquired a meaning that is not necessarily easy to deduce from the main entry (as an example, many participles of verbs have become adjectives in their own right). I suggest you talk with Jyril on this one, or open a discussion in BP. --Hekaheka 08:54, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I was only thinking of making the nominative plural at the moment, and any adjective form-ofs. Razorflame 09:00, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I guess the plurals are all right. --Hekaheka 19:10, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I think that since the declension types are so important that we include all the forms of all the words that are the declension types. What do you think? Razorflame 19:40, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I already said that I don't know. I'm aware of the credo, but I don't think it occurred to the person who formulated it that there might be languages with tens of millions of word forms. I still think that this should be taken to a wider forum for discussion. I have enough to think about with the base forms. So far we cover only about ten percent of the Finnish words even in their base form. --Hekaheka 21:30, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I'll bring this up at the Beer Parlour, then :) Cheers, Razorflame 21:38, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Brought up here. Your input would be very much valued :) Razorflame 21:49, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for helping out with this entry (a user request from WT:FB). With my ever-so limited knowledge in Finnish, I pretty much had both of my hands tied on this one! Jamesjiao → ^{T ◊ C} 11:13, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

My pleasure. It's always encouraging to see that somewhere out there there's someone who has at least some interest in this exotic language. --Hekaheka 19:50, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Could you help me understand which declension to use here? I am thinking that it could be just plain old risti, but I wanted to double-check with you first. Thanks for the help, Razorflame 21:42, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Yep, it's risti. --Hekaheka 21:47, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Ok, thanks :) Since there is an a, it would be the first type listed on the Appendix. Also, is maalaji risti as well? Thanks for the help! I really appreciate it! I'm still learning the declensions (been reading print books about Finnish declension and grammar for about a week and a half now, so I enjoy your help, as it helps me learn even more! Thanks, Razorflame 21:50, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

The declension of a compound is always the same as the declension of last component of the compound term, in this case laji. You can simply copy the declension line from the entry for laji, add maa in front of laj and presto - you've got the declension. But make sure that you don't guess when doing declensions! It is easy to err in apophony and vowel harmony as the rules are not too straightforward. I think no declension is definitely better than wrong declension. --Hekaheka 22:01, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you on this! I would only add a declension if I were extremely sure that I was right. Most of the time, I just write the skeleton of a Finnish entry (meaning no etymology, pronunciation, or declension), but lately, I've been finding more and more words that I know the declension to, such as words like numeraali, pedaali (both risti), and others. Thanks again for the sage words of advice, Razorflame 22:28, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for adding the declension for aaltolevy. I made this entry because I felt fairly confident that I could make the word and add the correct translation for that word. What I figured was that it was a compound word, aalto (wave) + levy (which is a lot of different words, but after looking through all of them and trying out different combinations of possible words, and after using lots of different web searches and online Finnish dictionaries, I figured that wave plate made the most sense). Thanks again for the help, Razorflame 23:31, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

You did exactly what one should not do, GUESSED the meaning of a word and ADDED it to Wiktionary. This is supposed to be a dictionary and not a collection of educated guesses. Your guess was partly correct, true, but at least 99,999% of Finnish speakers think of "corrugated plate" instead of "wave plate" as the first alternative when they hear or read the word aaltolevy. Although it is more exciting to skate on thin ice, I strongly recommend that you stay on more familiar and safe grounds from now on. --Hekaheka 06:33, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I agree on that. Therefore, I'll only add declensions that I am 100% sure of (mainly risti, vanhempi, and sisin declensions). By the way, can you write an entry for lajite? Thanks, Razorflame 03:29, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Sure, but it will take a few days. The word is not in ordinary Finnish-English dictionaries and it will require some research. Based on maalajite, separate is a candidate, but the current entry does not support the assumption. --Hekaheka 04:44, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

When I removed the e from the word, it became a word for species, but that is because lajit is the plural and accusative plural of laji, which is why species is the term used there. I would have to agree that it either means separate, but it could also mean texture, because the Finnish Wikipedia has the entry listed as soil texture and not soil separate. What do you think of that assumption? Razorflame 05:01, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Not exactly so. Texture is rakenne in Finnish. --Hekaheka 05:04, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Hmm...tough call. By the way, that red link above with the discussion about that exercise motion...after thinking about that long and hard, I think exercise motion would be an appropriate definition for that word :) Razorflame 05:05, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi there Hekaheka...after using a reputable Finnish --> English dictionary, I've come up with the translation unstructured for this word. Before I made it, I wanted to double-check with you to make sure it is right before adding it. Thanks, Razorflame 05:11, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

What's the source? I understand it almost antonymously. One sees this word most often as the main element in a compound term, e.g. kevytrakenteinen means "having a light structure" (I don't know the exact English equivalent right away, probably lightweight). It might also be a rarely used shorter form of rakenteellinen (“structural”). My first translations for "unstructured" would be jäsentymätön or jäsentämätön. --Hekaheka 05:23, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

When you say "having a light structure", we aren't talking about structures as in buildings, right? We are talking about structures like molecular structures or how things are structured, right? For example, lightweight book. Is that what we are going for with this word? Razorflame 08:51, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Quite the contrary, we are talking mainly of buildings and other mechanical structures. For example a bridge may be kevytrakenteinen, if it is built for light traffic or it is a temporary structure. --Hekaheka 09:46, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Ok, so a "lightweight" building as in a building made of lightweight materials, then? Razorflame 10:07, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

This is why I wanted to ask you first, to make sure that the source I was using was correct. I've now learnt that it isn't, so I'll have to find a new one. Razorflame 05:38, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

If I have a term that I want to add in Finnish, how about I just ask you to add it for me. Would that be good with you? Razorflame 23:03, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it'll be ok. --Hekaheka 23:20, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Ok. While looking at the page firmware, I noticed that it had a Finnish translation. After checking it and verifying it, I found that it does indeed exist, so I proceeded to add a skeleton of a Finnish entry. I did not add anything that I was unsure about. I only added the language header, noun header, and the translation. I am pretty sure that that is the only sense for that word, so that is why I decided to add it myself. In almost every other case, though, I would have asked you. That alright with you? Razorflame 23:30, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Please do not place Wikipedia link boxes outside of language sectios. Each such link is specific to one language, and should only appear within a language section, not at the top of a page. --EncycloPetey 21:16, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

OK. I had previously understood that English would be an exception as this is an Englih dictionary. I read somewhere that the entry for parrot could be regarded as a 'model for what we are trying to achieve'. In that entry the Wikipedia link is outside the language section. --Hekaheka

Only because someone made that change (incorrectly), and I've been offline much of the past month. Thanks for pointing out the error in the parrot entry; I've now made the correction. --EncycloPetey 01:18, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Mglovesfun (talk) 16:08, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

fixed --Hekaheka 20:12, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Can you double-check the translations that I found for both of these words? I looked for a long time for each, and I finally decided on the translations for both. It would be much appreciated. Thanks, Razorflame 10:08, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Sorry about the switchup on fasetti in terms of the declension...I do know that special declension, I just could not remember order they went in. Thanks for showing me which order they go in so that I can remember that for next time :} Razorflame 12:59, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

I've agreed to stop making them from scratch, but I will still make form-of entries, all right? Razorflame 17:39, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I believe form-of's are OK. --Hekaheka 17:41, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Very good :) I enjoy making them (as you might have noticed), and it gives me something to do to stay out of trouble :) Thanks again, Razorflame 17:44, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Another note: I'll make a page just like the one that I use to verify Kannada transliterations, and whenever you have the time, you can check them out and make sure that they are right before being made, alright? Does that sound like a plan to you? Razorflame 17:51, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Page made at User:Razorflame/Finnish/FV. I'll add any entries that I might want to make there first so that they can be verified before being added to the project.

On a completely separate and unrelated note: As promised, I told you that I would not add the declension tables to any words that I did not know the declensions to, as was agreed upon earlier. Razorflame 00:57, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi there. Do you know why the Finnish declension tables no longer hide themselves like they used to? By the way, can you make an entry for projekti? I believed this to be project, but I wanted to let you add it because you know all of the other senses that it could be. Thanks, Razorflame 19:30, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

No idea. Must be something with your system. On my screen they still hide all right. --Hekaheka 23:57, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I had to clear my cache to solve the problem. Thanks anyways :) Razorflame 23:59, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Never mind about the request for the article...already made ;) Razorflame 19:36, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for adding to the phrasebook, especially missä on vessa, which is disappointingly not in my paper phrasebook. ~ heyzeuss 05:33, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

A note re: . In botanical taxonomy (and possibly for zoology), names above the rank of genus are not italicized. --EncycloPetey 14:14, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Zoological names > genus are definitely not italicized. --Jyril 19:48, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

All right, I'll remember that, but the logic is not obvious. Can you explain? --Hekaheka 01:26, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Only generic and species/subspecies names (of any organism) are italicized.

Example:

* Primates (order)

* Hominidae (family)

* Homininae (subfamily)

* Hominini (tribe)

* Homo (genus)

* Homo sapiens (species)

* Homo sapiens sapiens (subspecies)

--Jyril 17:30, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Fine, but I still do not see the logic behind the rule. I had understood that "scientific" names are italicized because they are regarded as more or less Latin or at least non-English words. "Primates" is clearly an English word, but "Hominidae, Homininae" and "Hominini" are not. Or is this just a convention without any deeper logic behind it? --Hekaheka 17:37, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Can you clarify the second definition here? ~ heyzeuss 11:12, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Better now? --Hekaheka 17:27, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, thanks. ~ heyzeuss 13:22, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Hei, ainakin KOTUSin mukaan viekoitella jne. muodot (i:n kanssa) ovat ainoita oikeita. Varmasti ei ole vanhentunut muoto. Myös Googlen perusteella i:lliset muodot ovat yleisempiä. --Jyril 19:47, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

No pahus, niin näkyy olevan, eli kielikorva teki jo toisen tepposen kuukauden sisällä. Korjasin "viekoitella" -muodon päämuodoksi. Googlessa "viekotella" saa 1/4 kannatuksen, joten pidin sen alt formina. --Hekaheka 01:24, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

This template example is broken. Is "pieäyyö" supposed to be "pierrä?" ~ heyzeuss 13:22, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it was, and the second last was supposed to be purra. --Hekaheka 13:59, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Hi. Could you please take a look at the declension table of the article saippuasarja? It says saippusarja for nominative singular, I think it must be saippuasarja and the plural..? Thanks in advance! Sinek 20:38, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Fixed. --Hekaheka 21:07, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

I thought I would be nice and make a reference template for you, but it turns out that Jyril has done it already. {{R:Hakkinen 2005}} ~ heyzeuss 09:45, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, thank you anyway for the thought! --Hekaheka 10:24, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

{{R:Hakkinen 2004}} is now available for use. ~ heyzeuss 07:16, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Do you know of a thorough Finnish-Finnish online dictionary? ~ heyzeuss 07:16, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

As far as I know there's none. Finnish Wiktionary is one, but it suffers of lack of enthusiasm. The Finnish Research Centre for Domestic Languages (Kotimaisten kielten tutkimuskeskus, KOTUS, www.kotus.fi) maintains a wordlist but I don't believe it's a true dictionary. I do not really know, because the wordlist is not available online and my Mac does not understand the zipped downloadable version. They also have a Finnish-Finnish dictionary available on CD, which one can purchase through their web pages. You might also want to ask from User:Jyril; he tends to be rather knowledgeable about KOTUS. --Hekaheka 19:48, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Some intransitive verb definitions start with "to be." I'm trying to think of examples to help understand them better. Part of my confusion is that for the transitive form, in the English definition, the verb is no longer transitive. e.g. harmittaa:

1. (transitive) To irritate.

   Minua harmittaa.

   I am irritated.

2. (intransitive) To be irritated.

   Minä harmitan.

   I am irritated.        ~ heyzeuss 07:57, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Actually harmittaa is always transitive, because the person who is irritated or is being irritated is always the object of a Finnish sentence. Most Finnish verbs that express feelings behave that way. Grammatically speaking, these verbs are called monopersonal. Thus you can say either:

• minua harmittaa , or
• X harmittaa minua

The expression "minä harmitan" would mean that I am irritating someone else, but this usage is rare; ärsyttää would be a more likely choice for verb in such case. I fixed the entry for harmittaa according to these lines. Did I manage to clarify the issue or did I just make you more confused? --Hekaheka 09:11, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, that helps a lot. It is difficult because to be irritated looks like a literal gloss and not an idiomatic translation. I think it needs {{idiomatic}} to show that it does not translate straight across, but it is clear for me now. ~ heyzeuss 13:22, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

I am trying to learn Finnish from a book and CD. I am having a lot of trouble with the vowel u. My Finnish friend thinks I am saying y. I try to make the sound like French vu for y (which seems to be correct) and the sound like English boot for u (which is different, but my friend can't tell). This is really aggravating and it makes me want to give it up as a bad job, if I can't even pronounce a fucking basic vowel. Do you have any hints on pronouncing u for an English speaker? Equinox ◑ 20:29, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

If you knew Spanish, half of your job would be done. The vowels a, e, i, o and u are pronounced exactly the same way in both languages. If this does not help, you have a good enough "u" in the word "rudimentary" and "uu" in "boot" or "too". I'd say the vowel in "vue" comes close to "yy". A good example of "y" does not occur to me right now, but just try to keep the vowel of "vue" short. If your friend does not hear the difference between the vowels in "vue" and "boot", he should not try to teach pronunciation to other people. Another tip: don't worry too much about getting it right in the beginning. After 40 years of studying and speaking English the vowels in "hot dog" are still a mystery to me. --Hekaheka 21:32, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Now I found it. The "u" in French "superior" sounds pretty much the same as "y" in Finnish. --Hekaheka 21:34, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

boot and rudimentary have the same vowel in my accent. My sister has told me that vous and vu sound different in French, but I've never really picked it up. Oh well, thanks for trying! Equinox ◑ 21:36, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Same vowel but different duration, right? --Hekaheka 21:43, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

(No – vous is /vu/, vue is /vy/. Ƿidsiþ 17:15, 3 June 2010 (UTC))

Of course. I was referring to boot and rudimentary. Vue and vous have a different vowel, but same duration. --Hekaheka 05:19, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, possibly. I don't think the duration difference really exists in English. Are you saying that Finnish u and y are the same vowel with different durations? I was trying to make my mouth into different shapes, basically! I've seen the u as the "English oo" (boot, root) and the y as a different sound, more precisely shaped, that occurs in French and German but not English. (Bear in mind that English is never spoken but always mumbled.) Equinox ◑ 21:52, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Duration of vowels is very important in Finnish. It's the only thing that separates e.g. tuleen (to the fire), tuulen (of the wind), tulen (I come or of the fire) and tuuleen (to the wind) from each other. Likewise with the consonants: valita and vallita are not the same thing, nor do they sound the same. I was trying to point out the difference between "u" and "uu" because I know from earlier experience that English-speakers often have difficulties with duration. Some people have found it helpful to think that the long and short variant of the same vowel are two different vowels. The difference in producing "u" and "y" is the position of the tongue. Pay attention to where your tongue is when pronouncing "u" or "uu" (this you can, because it's the vowel in "boot"). Then move your tongue forward so that the tip touches your lower teeth. Keep everything else unchanged. If you try to keep making the "u" sound while moving the tongue, you will notice you can't. The new sound should be "y". The pitch of your voice will increase a bit in the process, because extending the tongue will affect the position of the vocal chords. Let your sister judge the result as she is able to hear the difference between vous and vue. Hope this helps. At least your sister is going to have fun with your first experiments! --Hekaheka 08:44, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

I have trouble saying u as well; it always comes out more like y. Finnish people stick their lips way out when they say u, which is a quite funny to watch, especially on the evening news. This is my main failure point and I'm lazy and forget to do it. It requires an extra concious effort for a native English speaker such as myself. ~ heyzeuss 14:55, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

I wrote a complete entry for the comitative suffix -ne. Can you take a look before I add it as the Finnish section in -ne? Right now it's in the user name space: User:Heyzeuss/-ne. ~ heyzeuss 08:47, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

An effort made. Like it? User:Hekaheka

Yep. That one really needed a Finnish ear. I moved it over. ~ heyzeuss 12:17, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi there Hekaheka. Can you add a Finnish translation to this entry please? Thanks, Razorflame 17:18, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't think the definition is clear enough. Does it mean just anything to drink or something containing alcohol? These two cases translate differently into Finnish. I'm also a bit hesitant, because I really think we should have better guidelines for the Phrasebook before we let it mushroom too big to manage. See the RFD discussions for e.g. I have a big penis, I don't speak Belarusian, I'm allergic to milk, two beers please, I need a diaper , I'm eighteen years old etc. --Hekaheka 17:33, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I found a couple of your recent edits where you accidentally put "Translation" instead of "Declension" (eg kambri). I've fixed them, but just wanted to let you know in case it was a systematic error that needed fixing. Cheers. --Bequw → τ 05:25, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

No systematic error, just not paying enough attention. I guess it happens because I often add a Finnish entry right after adding the Finnish translation into an English entry. I need to be more careful, thanks for noticing. --Hekaheka 05:54, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Do you happen to know what this word means? Thanks, Razorflame 07:54, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Essive singular of kuultu. --Hekaheka 08:45, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but what is the closest English word that means kuultuna? Razorflame 08:46, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

"When heard" or "as heard" cover the cases that I can quickly think of. --Hekaheka 08:49, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. :) Razorflame 09:11, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Hello HKHK, you entered 2 translations in finnish of "any animal of the genus Procyonidae" , but aren't those the names for the "raccoon DOG" ? . I had entered the french name ("chien viverrin") of "raccoon dog", but I reverted it : "raccoon dog" is of the Canidae family, Nyctereutes genus - while "raccoon" is of the procyonidae genus... Are you also invaded by raccoon dogs in Finland ? T.y. Arapaima 09:40, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Hold your horses. I'm curremtly working with entries raccoon, raccoon dog, supi, supikoira and pesukarhu. Their names are a bit of a mess in Finnish, and I'm trying to shed a little light on it. While in the process, the entries may not be synchronized at all times. You can get an idea of the problem by reading the usage notes of the entry pesukarhu. --Hekaheka 09:54, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

And yes, there are raccoon dogs in Finland, perhaps not to the point of invasion, but they definitely live here. --Hekaheka 09:55, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Just curious - would you consider this entry HIV-koe sum of parts? ---> Tooironic 00:16, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I would. Why? --Hekaheka 03:18, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Well you might want to RfD it then. ---> Tooironic 08:31, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Interesting. Why do you want me to RfD it instead of doing it yourself? --Hekaheka 22:55, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Because I can't speak Finnish? ---> Tooironic 05:13, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Can you take a look at these at User:Heyzeuss#Miscellaneous words? ~ heyzeuss 08:43, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Done. Apologies for slow delivery! --Hekaheka (talk) 06:11, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Hi, there seems to be something strange with this edit, can you have a look? --Thrissel 20:47, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Fixed, thanks for noticing. --Hekaheka 21:04, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi,

Please confirm that your translation of Franco- is ranskalais- (linked to ranskalinen). Did you mean ranskalais- (linked to ranskalainen)? --Anatoli 23:15, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

I meant to link it to the page ranskalainen. There are a lot of adjectives in Finnish ending with -inen which in combined terms is replaced with -is-. Example: ]. I don't think these "is-forms" woud need their own entries. --Hekaheka 05:38, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Kiitos. I only checked if there was an error, you know better, which words or word parts need entries :) Thanks for fixing it. One more request, please check if my translations of vodyanoy into Finnish are okey with you - vodjanoi and vetehinen. I'm less certain about the latter. --Anatoli 06:08, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I would regard vodjanoi a transliteration rather than a Finnish word. Vetehinen appears to be the equivalent of водяной in Finnish mythology. The mythologies of various northern Eurasian nations have so many common elements that I would regard vetehinen and водяной as the same "personality". I think we could as well keep both. I'll write the Finnish entries. --Hekaheka 16:08, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks again. --Anatoli 22:11, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Is n.a. here supposed to mean “not applicable” or is it a Finnish abbreviation of propiska? --Vahagn Petrosyan 09:53, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

It was intended to show that there is no Finnish word for this Russian document. I have been earlier citicized for removing trreq's for Finnish words that do not exist. I hoped this would be a better approach, but obviously it creates other questions. --Hekaheka 11:05, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

A descriptive translation, even if it's SoP, is OK like asuinpaikkamerkintä, IMHO. It's understandable that not all concepts in one language/culture/system exist or have been translated into all languages. I used literal propiska in some translations where it was, at least occasionally (Wikipedia and other articles). I see that in Finnish, literal propiska wasn't used that often. Note (when translating) that it doesn't just mean the stamp/marking in the ID - 1) it's the system itself, 2) permission to stay in a region/city and 3) (by extension) - domicile, place where one lives. --Anatoli 05:33, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

I encountered some Finnish texts where propiska was used, but it was always explained first. I picked asuinpaikkamerkintä from an article which discussed some frequently occurring terminological problems in translating Russian texts into Finnish. It was written by a professional translator and appeared well thought-out. Perhaps you should split these three meanings more clearly in the entry for propiska. Sense 1) translation into Finnish might be "asuinpaikkarekisteri", sense 2) oleskelulupa and 3) kotipaikka or asuinpaikka. --Hekaheka 05:44, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

I've split and added glosses. Kindly add translations, please. I may get them in a wrong order. :)--Anatoli 06:06, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

I divided a translation table into three here - could you please check out whether I haven't messsed up the Finnish translations? Thanks, --Thrissel 20:12, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Why did you add an extra sense here? It seems redundant. ---> Tooironic 00:41, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

I added and I didn't - I separated an existing definition line in two. To me the two glosses appear as two separate definitions as they do to many writers of online dictionaries.

Free Online Dictionary, AudioEnglish, Wordnik (with slight differences):

1. To adorn unnecessarily something already beautiful.
2. To make superfluous additions to what is already complete.

Allwords:

1. To embellish something that does not need it.
2. To add unnecessary bells and whistles.

Some others only have one definition, which is close to our current #1. --Hekaheka 03:12, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

I made entries for those accounting words in the user namespace. Can you take a look?

kirjaus, tulokirjaus, kuntayhtymä, yhtymävaltuusto, toiminnallinen, summautua, lainanlyhennys, lähetysluettelo, tarjouspyyntö, pitkän aikavälin vastuu, pitkäaikainen vastuu, pitkäaikainen vieras pääoma

~ heyzeuss 14:57, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Checked. I'm not an expert in English accounting terminology, but they appear good to me in the sense that they seem to mean the same thing as the Finnish terms. --Hekaheka 10:57, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

thx ~ heyzeuss 13:10, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Sorry to have dumped all these on you, but they showed up in rfc-structure. I try to handle them, but that only works if the problem is mostly structural. Non-English PoS determination is often beyond my pay grade. Thanks. DCDuring TALK 16:12, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

If you just caught the edit summary for the one, the others ending in "sen" are at: Category:Finnish words needing attention. DCDuring TALK 16:15, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Does Finnish have a quality scale similar to the one used in English for rating used automobiles, trading cards, antique furniture, etc? i.e bad, poor, fair, good, excellent, mint ~ heyzeuss 17:34, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Nothing universally accepted AFAIK. One possible scale would be huono/huonokuntoinen, välttävä, tyydyttävä, hyvä/hyväkuntoinen, erinomainen, uuden veroinen/kuin uusi.

This entry came to my attention via the uncategorized pages list (no inflection line template). I took advantage of the opportunity to treat it the way I would the entry for the English gloss:

1. PoS Verb using {{infl}} (formerly: phrase)
2. Category:Finnish predicates

As I know no Finnish, this could be wrong or misleading. Even if it is as "right" as it is in English (where no one has objected, but ....), it is up to you and your fellow Finnish contributors whether you find it worthwhile or even to your taste. Feel free to simply revert (but it still needs a PoS category). I really edited it only to ask you questions about how I should treat Finnish entries that occasionally come up on cleanup lists. Also: Should it have {{idiom|fi}}? DCDuring TALK 12:03, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

I added -htaa. Please tell me if I'm missing something important. ~ heyzeuss 16:30, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Can you verify the conjugation of nakella? The appendix for tulla-type verbs says that it should have k→kk consonant gradation, but the entry doesn't show any consonant gradation. ~ heyzeuss 13:52, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Checked - and thanks for asking. Locating improper conjugations afterwards would be a huge job. --Hekaheka 13:57, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm making consonant gradation categories that are fed automatically by the conjugation templates, so it will be easier to check them sometime. For example, Category:Finnish tulla-type verbs/consonant gradation t-tt. ~ heyzeuss 14:11, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for helping me clarify those suffixes. Wiktionary may be the only place where the information is published in English. -us still has two forms of consonant gradation: kalleus and vastaus. Is it correct? ~ heyzeuss 13:00, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes and no: -us as short form of -uus is always inflected according to type kalleus, but -us as a suffix in its own right is always of the type vastaus. --Hekaheka 18:10, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't agree with your changes to the definition here. It gives the impression that the word only refers to boots used in combat but this is not the case since they are also used in fashion, hiking and other contexts. ---> Tooironic 13:14, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Current definition reads:

1. A type of boot designed to be worn by soldiers during actual combat or combat training.

Before my editing it read:

1. A type of boot made from hardened leather, used in the military, or worn by civilians.

I deleted "hardened leather" because I do not think that the material is essential. A combat boot is a combat boot also, if it is made e.g. of Goretex, Kevlar or some type of composite material. Current formulation does not exclude civilian use, it only states that the boot is designed for military use. Are the "combat boots" used in fashion, hiking etc. exactly the same shoes used by the military or are they just looking similar? If they are the same shoes, I'm happy with a mention that they are also used by civilians, although I would not regard it as necessary. If they are just look-alikes, a second definition might be justified. --Hekaheka 14:07, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Could you move the translations of taffrail log to ? Translations between foreign languages is the purview of the respective foreign language Wiktionaries. Thanks. --Bequw → τ 22:52, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

The entry has the wrong heading, it's English, not Finnish. --Anatoli 23:02, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. --Bequw → τ 03:00, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Special:UncategorizedPages contains ~30 Finnish entries with just L2 header and the headword. Do you want to treat them as Requested entries or delete them. I can't even tell PoS so I can't add value. DCDuring TALK 11:59, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I'll check. --Hekaheka 14:24, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Problem caused by User:Heyzeuss. I left message. I should have checked the history. DCDuring TALK 14:30, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I edited the entry poljeta, which is now correct as far as I can say. I even added an example to show how the "impersonal indicative present connegative" form can be used. It might be sufficient to use the {{inflected form of||lang=fi}} -template as the gloss isn't likely to be of much value to most users. --Hekaheka 16:52, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

It seems like a difference in point of view on that last point is at the core, but I am out of my depth. In English, we don't have glosses for inflected forms, but do have them for other terms created by suffixes (-ly) and prefixes (un-, non-), some of which don't seem worth a full entry to me (the un- and non- forms, usually). DCDuring TALK 17:17, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Sorry about that. I have cleared it up. ~ heyzeuss 20:20, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Hope it is OK all around. For me, I just want to keep the cleanup lists short. DCDuring TALK 20:26, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Words ending in -nne are sometimes formed from a -ntaa-type verb + -e, but sometimes the verb is non-existant, as in the case of liikenne and tilanne. It then seems appropriate that the etymology should indicate an imaginary infinitive ending, as in: liike + -ntaa + -e. I already changed liikenne. Does this seem right, or am I way off base? ~ heyzeuss 20:18, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

I think that would be a hasty conclusion. The usage of the Finnish suffixes is sometimes quite ambiguous. In case of -nne one use is the one that you mention. Examples:

• rakentaa (“to build”) > rakenne (“structure”)
• ohentaa (“to make thinner”) > ohenne (“thinner”)
• kääntää (“to turn”) > käänne (“twist, turn”)

But then on the other hand there are a lot of -ntaa verbs of which one cannot form a noun that way. Examples include:

• pienentää (“to make smaller”)
• kaventaa (“to make narrower”)
• harventaa (“to thin out”)

Then there are nouns that more or less loosely express a situational or diminutive aspect of another word:

• liike (“movement”) > liikenne (“traffic”)
• tila (“space”) > tilanne (“situation”)
• kuja (“alley”) > kujanne (“tiny alley”)
• tasainen (“smooth, level”) > tasanne (“small, level area in otherwise rugged terrain”)

And then there are nouns that seem to belong to some of the groups above, but there is no root word:

• iljanne (“icy spot on a road”)
• asenne (“attitude”) - has nothing to do with asentaa (“to install”) --Hekaheka 21:27, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for getting back to me on that. Those are really good examples. ~ heyzeuss 11:01, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Hi, could you please put the information on the words forming a compound in the etymology section instead of adding links into {{infl}} template? If you use etymology templates such as {{compound}} or {{suffix}} the words also get correctly categorized. See kaislahame for example. --Jyril 09:53, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

As you wish. That's actually what I used to do but then I read somewhere criticism toward that practice. I also noticed that the English compound terms seldom have an etymology section, but use {{en-noun|sg=]]}} instead. --Hekaheka 21:01, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, I got criticism after using that practice. I think the lack of Etymologies is because nobody has bothered to add them. BTW, could you use the lang=fi parameter, now the articles go to English categories? And if you care, could you also use {{prefix}} or {{suffix}} categories so that the categorization goes more neatly. Ant finally, please avoid using the redundant {{etycomp}} monster, I want to kill it as soon as possible. :) --Jyril 15:54, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

You mean lang=fi -parameter should be used with compound-template? Sorry, it did not occur to me. I think I use lang=fi in other occasions where it is necessary, or have you noticed something else? I don't know how and where to use {{prefix}} and {{suffix}} categories. Could you point out an entry in which they are used properly? --Hekaheka 16:02, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Hello, the compound template takes a lang parameter, so it would be nice if you would provide it in future. --Dan Polansky 15:18, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, thanks, sorry, in principle I know, but it appears that sometimes I forget to add it. --Hekaheka 15:21, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, it seems that you get it right most of the time, so it seems I should not have bothered you with it. I am sorry. --Dan Polansky 07:58, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

One click to the Wikipedia page provided would have shown you it's not "bullshit". ---> Tooironic 12:46, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

An article in Wikipedia is not enough to prove anything, alone. Funny that there are no English-language scientific articles about such a popularly interesting phenomenon in BGC. The best I found is anecdotal evidence to a "Japanese psychiatrist based in Paris". Not even this individual's name is mentioned. Yes, there is the summary of an article by Katada Tamami, but the article in itself is in Japanese, and one can quite safely state that "Paris syndrome" has not been attested as a medical term in English. The term seems to exist as it has been used in so many places, but the disease itself might as well be an urban legend. In absence of scientific sources I would add the word "alleged" to the definition. --Hekaheka 04:01, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Does this change look appropriate to you? ~ heyzeuss 13:24, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it is perfect. --Hekaheka 19:38, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

They only seem to go up to 9. Is it supposed to be an appendix? SemperBlotto 16:50, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry, a stupid mistake. I wanted to make it an appendix covering cardinal numbers from 0 to 9. Additional appendices could be written for other sets of numbers. I wrote this as a comment to the ongoing discussion in RFD on the entry three hundred. Someone complained of the community's unwillingness to write appendices and proposed it as a good solution for numbers and similar sets of entries. I wanted folks to check whether this would be an appropriate solution to the problem. As you are an admin, could you change the pagename to Cardinal numbers 0 to 9 ?

OK - another admin has already moved it to the appendix namespace, so it is now Appendix:Cardinal numbers 0 to 9. SemperBlotto 17:00, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

There appears to be dialectical preferences for kala-type superlative adjectives. On the page for laaja, laajampi is shown as the superlative. Can you clarify?

vanhempi vanhampi

laajempi laajampi

parempi parampi

~ heyzeuss 08:45, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

The standard comparative ending for kala-type adjectives is -empi. I corrected the entry for laaja accordingly. I don't understand where the -ampi comes from, probably it's simply a typo. I probably don't know every dialect, but I don't think I have ever heard vanhampi or laajampi, except from children. --Hekaheka 21:30, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Ohi there! First, thanks for cleaning up and thoroughly expanding "ohi". Great work! Second, could you comment at WT:RFV#mumina? Someone has called into question whether "mumina" really means "mumbling" or not. We've found some quotations that seem to show that it does mean "mumbling" — commented-out on the page you can even see where I've tried to translate one — but your input as a native speaker would be most helpful. — Beobach 01:50, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Head word says "common firefly". Mglovesfun (talk) 22:39, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Fixed.