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I see Ringe reconstructs this, but is there any other source? (or what is Ringe's source?) Because 1) the Sanskrit present verb 'vartti' turned out to be an augmentless mediopassive aorist 'varti', and 2) for the Germanic and Latin verbs I only find thematic reconstructions. Exarchus (talk) 19:05, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
German werden is most obvioulsy based on was, war, konjunktiv wäre, konjunktiv II würde. Basing anything on that is daunting: "Lastly, the past forms starting with w- such as was and were are from Proto-Indo-European*h₂wes-(“to reside”)." (was).
Apparently the term 'mediopassive aorist' is used in current literature for what Whitney calls the 'passive aorist' (3sg. on -i). (It's debatable whether what we give as 'mediopassive' shouldn't simply be called 'middle'.) Exarchus (talk) 07:02, 4 October 2024 (UTC)
If that's all there is to it, then I'd propose to move Latin and Germanic to the thematic present and have *wértti removed. Exarchus (talk) 09:09, 5 October 2024 (UTC)
Italian cocchio looks very much like all the other European words from kocsi and meaning "coach" . . . except . . . why on earth isn't it **coccio? What happened to the consonant? Currently the Hungarian entry gives the Italian as a descendant, but the Italian entry has no etymology.
Your etymology is correct. I'm fairly sure the consonant shift happened due to mediation of Venetan (or less likely some other northern Italian language) where intervocalic /t͡ʃ/ regularly corresponds to Italian /kkj/. Another occurrence of this phenomenon I encountered is inchiò, regional Italian term used in Venice (which I found only one attestation of and hence can't make an entry) derived from Venetian inciò. I've updated the etymology. Catonif (talk) 20:44, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
Very plausible and if correct another great example of two closely related languages artificially reproducing sound shifts by borrowing a word not in the closest phonetic form (Italian could have said *coccio), but according to the usual sound correspondences. This happens a lot, but some people seem to find it hard to understand. I had the discussion recently somewhere up there. 2.201.0.11005:05, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
I thought about that, but I don't like what the term could be interpreted as. It makes it sound like Venetan is "incorrect" Italian, whereas this is a mere sound correspondence. In cases of borrowings through bilingualism between closely related languages, many if not most borrowings work by sound correspondence rather than phonetic similarity. Were this to happen the other way around (Italian /kkj/ > Venetan /t͡ʃ/) I don't think anyone would try to claim "hypercorrection", rather "adaptation". Catonif (talk) 14:21, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
It's perhaps remotely related to hypercorrection, but clearly not the same thing. In German dialectology it is called "Einlautung" (literally "in-sounding"). 2.201.0.11020:16, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
According to Koebler it is correct, the PGmc term *laubjan means "allow, praise (V.), believe", as evidenced by its North Germanic descendant Old Norse leyfa which means both to "allow" and "praise". Leasnam (talk) 14:23, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
Common sense holds, I believe, that there is no formal method for the reconstruction of meaning. This is important with respect to Urlaub, leave, Laub, leafs, and fall, or Herbst and 𐀏𐀡 (q.v.). Actually I'm pulling this out of my pocket but the question stands. Alisheva (talk) 19:10, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
Recently a change was made to the etymology of niggatry stating that it is a blend of nigga + wizardry, and as previously stated in the etymology was coined by Uncle Ruckus in the Boondocks (which was originally added by myself). However, the meaning of the word implies otherwise, as there is no "magical" connotation to how it's used. Looking further into the term coined by the fictional Uncle Ruckus, the word he actually uses is clearly niggardry(blend of nigga + wizardry; different to our entry at niggardry), despite the title of the video reading as "Powerful Niggatry at work". There was obviously a mistake made on the part of the title writer, mishearing niggardry as "niggatry". I suggest based on the use of the word that it is still a blend of nigga and bigotry, and that the reference to Uncle Ruckus should be removed as erroneous.
Thoughts ? Leasnam (talk) 14:17, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
The old man, not Uncle Ruckus, is widely cited saying nyuka or so, once palatalized, so I'd see fortis t in lieu of d coming from the same place as k for g, with intervocalic lenition on g or progressive assimilation into kt. I do not and cannot hear "niggardry" in your snippet because of Auslautverhärtung. Alisheva (talk) 20:25, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
Okay, thank you all ! I will restore it to what it was previously as a blend possibly involving bigotry or faggotry and remove the Ruckus reference. Leasnam (talk) 21:01, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
If there is a term niggardry meaning "nigga wizardry" in actual use, I guess it could still warrant an entry, though. Possibly with a "jocular" classifier, or something. Wakuran (talk) 18:01, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
We have nothing remotely like the claimed Hungarian forms for the "hound" part, with the Cyrillic one looking suspiciously like a Bulgarian descendant of the Proto-Slavic ancestor, *xъrtъ. That said, the person who added it is usually pretty reliable, so it may just be a language-code mixup. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:47, 5 October 2024 (UTC)
Proto-Slavic *velьrybъ
This seems to be a compound word, *velьjь meaning large, and *rybъ meaning fish.
In addition, according to this video, *velьrybъ is a calque of Germanic, with *velь reanalyzed to mean big, instead of the IE root *(s)kʷálos. Tobiascide (talk) 06:37, 5 October 2024 (UTC)
Second part seems to be -ain. First part doubtfully from a derivative of mons or more likely from some other colonial language (spanish morro / french morne, moraine with a nasality I can't explain which gave rise to epenthetic /d/ as in craindre, pondre...). The word is of use from the 1710's in New World and sea travel literature, which is fitting if originating from marine vocabulary. Here are the earliest dictionary entries I could find for it :Tim Utikal (talk) 09:44, 5 October 2024 (UTC)
It's probably really both: the English word was borrowed in the plural, but at the same time it was reinterpreted as containing the diminutive suffix -is. It's sort of like when Arabic كِتَاب(kitāb) was borrowed into Swahili kitabu and then the first syllable was reinterpreted as the singular noun prefix ki-. —Mahāgaja · talk20:13, 5 October 2024 (UTC)
The singular form baby was borrowed more than 60 years, earlier, and would also have been widely known from English language pop songs and such, though. So at least it doesn't seem to be an obvious case of the plural form borrowed and reinterpreted as singular, as some other Swedish loanwords. Personally, I'm okay with the -is as a sidenote mention, anyway. Wakuran (talk) 20:53, 5 October 2024 (UTC)
The correct translation of the word perina from Serbo-Croatian to English is not pillow, as it appears on the page, but 1. mattress. 2. eiderdown. It can be checked in all dictionaries. PeterDorian (talk) 03:48, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
The etymology currently given has been contested. Kroonen says that if it comes from *ǵʰutós, it's from the root *ǵʰew-(“to pour”) and not from *ǵʰewH-(“to call, to invoke”). He proposes a connection with Old Church Slavonic говѣти(gověti, “to revere”) from a root *gʷʰew. And Beekes says it's non-Indo-European... Exarchus (talk) 11:50, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
is there a source for -mans being "ognate with English-ment, French-ment and Italian-mente"? it seems plausible enough, but the OED doesn't make this link at all ("Origin uncertain. Perhaps < man n.1 + ‑s (‑s suffix2 or plural ending ‑s); or perhaps simply a playful distortion of ‑ness suffix"). it feels like we should at least include the OED's suggestions and make clear that the etymology is ultimately uncertain; the present claim should also be sourced if possible.
It's the Pannonian Rusyn word meaning "rice". Any kind of rice. The рис-(ris-) component makes sense (although рис(ris) is listed in the dictionary with only non-rice-related senses), but -каша(-kaša)? Does it literally mean "rice porridge"? And if so, how did it come to mean just rice in general? I'm stumped with this one. And for all I could find, there's no terms in the dictionary where you could build some sort of diminutive or derivative to form the word рискаша(riskaša). Insaneguy1083 (talk) 19:15, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
I see! I had suspected it to be a Hungarian borrowing, but I suppose I just looked up the wrong term. I was trying to look for something along the lines of *riszkasa.
I then wonder though - how did the Hungarian term gain the sense of "rice" from "rice pudding"? Doesn't quite add up from a semantic standpoint. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 20:37, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
And also in this case, would rizskása count as a Wanderwort? I suspect not, purely because it's heavily dialectal or even obsolete in most of the mentioned languages bar Romanian and Pannonian Rusyn. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 21:57, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
I suppose this is not some kind of root noun and hence must be *spōką. However, it seems that it should be moved to West Germanic instead. 2.201.0.11011:15, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
"Kepf" seems to be a very rare or dialectal word in German, all I could find was where it means "Raubvogel" ("Bird of Prey"). The semantics aren't icredibly convincing. Wakuran (talk) 22:00, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
etemologiebank.nl said something different (i dont remember exactly what it was, not that i speak dutch) but it stated a possible connection. 90.241.180.5822:06, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
There are eight senses listed at etymologiebank.nl, but I couldn't find Kepf listed at either of them; Can you come back when you know where you found the info, so we can see the citations? Wakuran (talk) 22:42, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
I believe what the OP is referring to is Dutch keep(a type of finch, brambling (Fringilla montifringilla)). You will see it if you do a search for keep, it's the one labelled "keep (vogelsoort (Fringilla montifringilla))" Leasnam (talk) 23:41, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
Sure they do- hawks tend to have high-pitched calls, and not all of them are drawn out. Anything that cuts off quickly with a short drop in pitch at the end can sound like it has an unreleased final /p/. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:21, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
It wouldn't be the first time a stray letter was added to the end of a bird sound. Tiny Ramsey Island, off the coast of Pembrokeshire in Wales, has an insanely high percentage of all of Britain's (red-billed) choughs (I think it's something like a third or a quarter) and although they're allegedly named after their birdcall, they actually sound as if they're saying either 'chee-ur', 'chee-oh' or 'chee-ow' with a stress on the first syllable. The Old English and Middle English forms of the word listed at our entry seem like better representations of the actual sound of the bird to me. --Overlordnat1 (talk) 06:51, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
As I interpret the hypothesis, the word seems to be derived from an old Germanic/ Proto-Indo-European root, so although it might still be onomatopoetic, it might not be directly connected to the birds' calls. Wakuran (talk) 16:01, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
Onomatopoeia doesn't always have Proto-forms, although you can compare with German quäken, English quack, Swedish kväka. (The latter might be borrowed from Continental West Germanic, though.) Wakuran (talk) 14:10, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
The surname Araújo or Araúxo derives from a castle in Galicia, near the Portuguese border, but no-one says what it means. My best guess is from arar(“to plough”), thus ploughland. Any better ideas? 24.108.0.4401:48, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
Does the Norwegian term for muggles have anything to do with the Danaru word for arm? Perhaps the vikings got themselves stuck on the islands of Papua New Guinea and saw tribesmen using it and decided to use it as a insult to non magic people? 90.241.180.5820:49, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
Most unlikely. I read on a message board that it was an Old Norwegian word for nisse (gnome), but the user didn't provide a source. Otherwise, Norwegian has gom/ gomme (palate, gum), gump (bird's tail) and gamp (horse), so thee might have been some kind of conflation there. Wakuran (talk) 21:19, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
In Swedish and Nynorsk, I think "gump" can also mean the buttocks of a person. I believe it's a fairly colloquial word, similar to British/ Canadian bum or American fanny, but an allusion would still make sense for an insult. Wakuran (talk) 18:59, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
Where did the Dutch word for muggles come from? Im sure it's dreuze+el but apart from a surname I found dreuze isn't a real word 90.241.180.5815:04, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
Dutch apparently has the words treuzel (slowpoke) and dreutel (small child), it seems. (Although treuzelen seems more common as a verb than as a noun.) There might be a connection. Wakuran (talk) 15:45, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
It may be a completely made-up word, not based on any existing roots but only on connotations of similar words. Dutch dreutel (small child) has a synonym dreumel but can, moreover, also be used to refer to a clumsy person. Rhyming Dutch words with negative connotations are gebeuzel and geneuzel, both meaning “twaddle”, especially used for speech that demands one’s attention but is about irrelevant or insignificant things. BTW, we give an etymology for Muggle as being formed as mug + -le, but AFAICT this stems from an editor’s imagination. --Lambiam18:38, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
Albanian etymologies by Yazccaner
Contribslook like nationalist nonsense; I noticed them due to their edit to dhampir, a persistent target of 'everything-is-native' folk-etymologists, but it'd be good if someone with access to reliable etymological resources could take a look at the others... - -sche(discuss)22:05, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
As I said in my block message, they've been removing sourced information put there by Albanian editors such as @FierakuiVërtet and @Catonif and claiming it was put there by "Serbian bot accounts". The first part might be justifiable, depending on the facts, but the second part shows either blatant dishonesty or serious delusion, neither of which are conducive to good edits. I'm sure the Albanians don't have any more idiots or nutcases than any other nationality, but they seem to have a higher proportion of such people who end up at Wiktionary, for whatever reason. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:15, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
Does the German surname have any connection with Alemannic German large water pipe? It would be nice to have more info, what with Thomas Tuchel becoming England's men's team soccer manager. Let's say that if he wins England the World Cup, we'll add Tuchel as an English surname on en.wikt. If that's not incentive enough..... P. Sovjunk (talk) 07:55, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
Tuchel is also the German name of Tuchola, a town formerly in Germany and now in Poland. Surnames from place names are very common, of course, but to settle the matter someone would have to do some pretty heavy research to determine whether the surname originated in West Prussia or in Uri (or somewhere else altogether). —Mahāgaja · talk08:06, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
I would have guessed the German name might have been Tuch (cloth) with diminutive -el-ending. I'm not sure on where the Alemannic German might have come from, possibly some early borrowing of French tube, if I am to hazard a guess. Wakuran (talk) 13:00, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
@Janwo: Evidently the IP before the IP adding the rfv-etym just copied it from the page for mistletoe *mistilaz, though there only, and in its there referenced source, the suffix was told to be identical and the IP transferred its knowledge on the eventual morphemes, which is not dumb as far as I can see, Irene Balles 1999 also accepted the same “to prick, to sting, root” with this suffix, though not evidently the middle morpheme “to sit”; the etymology wasn’t known in Kluge 1995. Fay Freak (talk) 20:23, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
(Edit conflict) Reviewing the entry, a compound with zero-grade from *sed- (beside mistle note also parasit) is not convincing unless there is a cognate with the same root. S-mobile should be doubtful (see the statistical argument about cutting roots and related semantics by Viktor Lewizkij in Nowele 60 (2011)). Since **sd does not surface in syllable onset (Siebs' law, cp. parasit, sedere), it is not simply *teyg- plus s-prefix (pace Kluge).
Regarding the semantics compare thicket reconstructing a different vowel in *þekuz.
In other words, the mechanical reconstruction of PIE *(s)teyg- is indistinguishable from coincidence, thus PG *þistilaz is less than reliable. Attested only in Old Norse and West-Germanic, not Gothic, borrowing is possible from PWG where the vowels of *þistil and *þikkwī eventually agree (for the High German long vowel cf. diesig). Nevertheless, EWAhd agrees with Kluge.Thick on the other hand appears to be chiefly Celtic—Germanic, cf. "Weitere sichere Anschlußmöglichkeiten fehlen." (EWAhd) "eerder zou ik denken aan overname uit een substraattaal." (de Vries), "Gezien de geringe verspreiding gaat het wrsch. om een substraatwoord." (EWNl). That opens the door to speculation.
As for the color that we show in vivid pictures, the Finnic "thistle; bramble" and Proto-Finic "burdock", from Baltic (supra; Proto-Baltic*dagijas s.v. Proto-Finnic *takijas), should be of interest. 𐍅𐌹𐌲𐌰𐌳𐌴𐌹𐌽𐍉𐌼(wigadeinōm, “thistle”) agrees very well with the Balto-Slavic evidence of *dyew-(“day; bright, shiny”), PB *deinas/*dinas, while *dagijas (above) reminds of the false cognate *dagaz—NB: ALEW: dãgas, "Außerbsl. wird häufig das germ. Wort für ‘Tag, helle Zeit des Tages’, got. dags, an. dagr, ae. dæg, ahd. tag sm. hier angeschlossen," q.v. also dagilis..
Oops, I deleted above: Finnic has loans in both cases, Finnish takiainen "thistle" derived from a Baltic word (Category:Proto-Baltic is etymology only short-hand) and tykky derived from Old Norse "thick". A presumably earlier loan appears in Proto-Samic, but Wikipedia is awfully quiet on its date. Alisheva (talk) 21:31, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
You're quite ... creative ... with consonant voicing. I'll leave it at that. As for burdock: anyone who has every encountered the plant in person is painfully aware that "bur" is the same as English bur, and in that time period purple was an astronomically expensive imported dye used in royal robes- not something people in the wilds of Northern Europe would use to name a common weed. In addition, bramble is from a name for shrubs, sharing its origin with broom. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:50, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
I just figured it could be the same suffixes and general thinking behind it, but it was just a general hunch, anyway. Wakuran (talk) 11:35, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
Kildin Sami «ыгь»
I wanted to make the article for Kildin Sami ыгь(yg’) since I saw there was an article for ыгь кэ̄сск(yg’ kēssk), but couldn't find anything related to the etymology of the word. I found on a Sami to Russian dictionary that the word comes from ыгкь(ygk’), but wasn't fully sure if it was true. Anyone know if it's true or not? Aoscf77 (talk) 12:51, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
The name has nothing to do with onions, it first turns up in an Italian Arthurian story, w:La Damigella di Scalot. She is elsewhere referred to as living in a tower, so the name is probably derived from Welsh ysgol(“ladder”) (etymology 2), alternate form ystol. -ot represents a diminutive, thus flight of steps. Some might think the name is purely Italian, but then it would be scaletta.
Anyone know the origin of this placename? There's a landform called a letch which has sometimes been spelled and pronounced latch, so hypothetically it could be named for one of those... but while looking for the earliest uses of the name, there was interference from the fact that various things in Essex have iron latches which books found notable enough to mention, so it could just be that, or some other explanation. - -sche(discuss)01:19, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
A bit of googling reveals that Kii is a Japanese surname (in addition to the place name we have listed). I found an article on E. coli coauthored by a Tsutomu Kii and an article about coral DNA coauthored by a Shin-Ichi Kii. So maybe the Kiitricha is named after a protistologist of the same name? Or maybe even the place name already mentioned in our entry?? —Mahāgaja · talk16:28, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
The -trich- morpheme is contained in hypernyms of Kiitricha upto the rank of infraphylum. The protist apparently coexists with corals. The Kii peninsula has reefs. I'd bet on Kii referring to the place. DCDuring (talk) 17:05, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
I found many hits on Google Books where men, women, cats and dogs are called ‘Pookie’, so that’s certainly possible. There’s also this interesting hit which refers to someone called Pookie, back in the 70s, apparently because of his drug use (thus tying it in to pookie perhaps? Maybe a corruption of PCP?). The word seems to be used more by African Americans. The author Sherman L. Fowler was apparently given the nickname 'Pookie' from birth in 1943. There's also two hits using 'pookie' to refer to a vagina( and ) and one hit claiming it's short for 'pussy cat'. It's apparently also a term for a bushbaby originating in (what was) Rhodesia, a tank was named after it (see and the various links at w:Pooky. --Overlordnat1 (talk) 07:49, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
You mean that it might be an attempt to imitate the sound of a cute pet, or baby perhaps? Possibly so but that’s a different hypothesis to saying that it came from blending the words poochie, cookie and puppy together (none of which are themselves of imitative origin). Overlordnat1 (talk) 19:28, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
The English etymology and various derived etymologies claim that this is a Germanic calque. I can't find such a claim in any of the standard etymological sources that I have access to. It seems that the univerbation "manuscriptum" is attested since circa 1000, so the Germanic words could actually be calques of the Latin. But the semantics are so obvious that there doesn't even have to be any close relation. Is there any source for this claim? 2.202.159.4323:01, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
Pannonian Rusyn word for "stair", i.e. stairs is ґарадичи(garadiči). First instinct is to connect it with парадича(paradiča, “tomato”), but I have no idea how these two could connect. And I couldn't find any Hungarian*garadicsom either. Maybe somehow related to Latingradus? Insaneguy1083 (talk) 07:54, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
Any idea what the source of Dose, Döse(“moor”) is, or Dobbe? (Old books variously mention Dobbe as a synonym or suggest that one or both words instead mean "bog pond" and/or a particular peat layer.) Several old books suggest the name relates to the moors' light-coloured peat, but if there is a link (does dösig locally mean light-coloured?) it is currently escaping me. - -sche(discuss)03:11, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
I have heard "Dose" once in a compound, cf. "preußische Sanddose", "märkische Sanddose", "Märkische Streusandbüchse", refering to the arid soil. Dose can mean box, hence I remember it inevitably as Sandkasten. I doubt that this is correct, because you would not be asking if δόσις(dósis) derives such a sense. Although it would make sense if Dose "can" derived from dosis "a measured portion" while drug at the same time is related to dry, pill refered in a similar way to mortar, which shows a wide range of semantic drift. On second thought, it may be related to *dūnā, sand dune, see below about diesig. Alisheva (talk) 07:19, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
OK, I found that Fritz Overbeck's 1975 Botanisch-geologische Moorkunde unter besonderer Berücksichtigung der Moore Nordwestdeutschlands als Quellen zur Vegetations-, Klima- und Siedlungsgeschichte, page 49, says "7. Dose, nach MENSING (Schleswig-Holsteinisches Wörterbuch) und C. A. WEBER (1900) die alte niedersächsische Bezeichnung für das Hochmoor (z. B. „Esterweger Dose“, ). Lebendiger erhalten soll das Wort in der Ableitung „dösig“ sein, dem Adjektiv für einen wenig ergiebigen, schwerfälligen Menschen; auch die Bezeichnung „Torfkopf“ ist für einen solchen Menschen gebräuchlich." (However, I can't say I am convinced of the connection to dösig, since it has such a solid, and non-moor-related, etymology already.)
The Schleswig-Holsteinisches Wörterbuch Overbeck cites in turn says: "Dose, Dös (s. d.) „hellfarbige Moosschicht auf Torfmooren“, als selbständiges Wort in Schl.H. nicht mehr bekannt (erhalten im Ostfriesischen; vgl. nhd. „Dost“, Origanum vulgare L.), nur noch in Ortsnamen fortlebend: Dosen-bȩk Dorf im Gut Bothkamp; Nebenfluß der Schwale bei Groß-Harrie (Neum.), —moor Moor östl. vom Einfelder See (Bordesh.), " and "Dös ² (dös) f. „Niederung“, „Wiese“, „Moor“; vgl. mnd. dose „hellfarbiger Moostorf“. enige Holtbüten un Torfmoor in'e D—en Dtm. 1850; nur bei Groth 3, 104 u. 2, 46 bezeugt. Vgl. Dose S. 778."
It would still be interesting to know the etymology or cognates of the Middle Low German word.
On a separate note, Distel would be standard but it certainly does not rhyme with distillery for me. Long 'ie' is easily found, not easily quoted. Hence I pointed out diesig.
We link it to dijzig (RfE). DWDS and Etymologiebank agree tentatively about PIE *tem(ǝ)-, though Philippa is missing. This I thought would be enough as far as the parallel to *(s)teyg- respectively *(s)teg-. We on the other hand have it already as cognate to dizzy (West Frisiandize(“fog”)), but from *dʰewh₂-.
Why sure you do. dijzig is labeled RfE, we disagree with sources and I set up a discussion with topical references. This is to guard my previous comment on the same root, this in response to my previous comments about thistle concerned about vowel length and consonant voicing. Ulterior motives were lost to my browser deciding to reload the page at random, a hazyhazard I should have reckoned with. Words can't express ... Alisheva (talk) 20:20, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
the etymology section cites the notoriously unreliable/generally bad website 語源由来辞典 (Gogen Yurai Jiten), which has so many unsourced hypotheses for that specific word that I'm starting to think everything there is just speculation. I feel like we should just remove the etymology, and I was going to do that, but I decided to ask here first to see if someone had a more reliable source, like a Proto-Japonic reconstruction or a Ryukyuan cognate or a more reliable etymology than just speculation from GYJ. so, if anyone has that, please weigh in, otherwise I'm just going to remove the etymology, I think. Mati, with a t (talk) 23:59, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
okay, I removed the dubious etymology from the entry. if anyone for some reason wants to add another more credible source for the etymology, please do — I wasn't able to find anything other than random sites that I wouldn't personally believe with theories like that. Mati, with a t (talk) 02:37, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
Makuria
Back to Nubia! w:Makuria was a Nubian kingdom which lasted many centuries. I have ransacked my Old Nubian Dictionary for a suggestive word, without luck. But Coptic, which was a prestige language in Nubia, has Copticⲙⲁⲕⲁⲣⲓⲟⲥ(makarios, “blessed”), borrowed from Ancient Greekμακάριος(makários). w:Makuria tells us that the native name was ⲇⲱⲧⲁⲩⲟ(dōtauo), so Makuria was a borrowed "prestige" name. And what more natural than that the kings and priests should call their "blessed" country by a "blessed" language. Thoughts, anyone? 24.108.0.4401:13, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
Regarding the name ⲇⲱⲧⲁⲩⲟ, the Old Nubian Dictionary tells us that ⲇⲱⲩⲧ- translates κοσμήσᾱςordered, arranged, adorned, of which ⲙⲁⲕⲁⲣⲓⲟⲥ, blessed, might be a loose translation. So this might be another support for the interpretation. 24.108.0.4403:51, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
That raises the question of why a deliberate prestigous borrowing would have /u/ instead of /a/.
That there doesn’t exist a Nubian word (at least not in that source) which resembles “Makuria” doesn’t mean the toponym is non-local in origin. The names of most French cities aren’t a good fit for any individual French word either. Nicodene (talk) 12:11, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
The fact that a native name ⲇⲱⲧⲁⲩⲟ exists beside the better-known one implies borrowing, just as the name Australia is in Latin. As to the u, that could be part of converting the adjective into a proper noun. 24.108.0.4420:15, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
That doesn’t follow. Makuria can simply be based on some other Nubian toponym or ethnonym.
/a/ > /u/ resulting from the conversion of an adjective into a noun, proper or otherwise, is not found in Ancient Greek. Nicodene (talk) 07:34, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
Claude Rilly and Alex de Voogt (2012, The Meroitic Language and Writing System) consider it natively inherited: The ancient Nubians identified themselves differently in their own language, perhaps *Mag-ur ~ *Mag-i, if one trusts the names of Makuria (Kingdom of Dongola); (Rilly & de Voogt 2012:104). 185.238.219.315:23, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
You should familiarize yourself with the literature if this is your thing. I can say that it is based on comparisons in three more languages, but I have not read the whole thing and cannot tell what it means in this framework. I will say that it does either intentionally or by oversight not include Mogoreeb, the name of a dialect and a corresponding tribe in the Nara language branch (p. 78). 62.214.191.6718:38, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
I just made the entry for Pannonian Rusyn-арня(-arnja), and I'm coming up to an issue about its productivity. Fact is, there aren't a whole lot of Pannonian Rusyn words for which the -ар(-ar) form doesn't exist, but that the -арня(-arnja) form does. Combing through the whole 2010 Rusyn-Serbian dictionary, the only one I could reasonably find was машинарня(mašinarnja), and even that's iffy because there's also the synonym машинарнїца(mašinarnjica), and -арнїца(-arnjica) isn't really a thing. The -р-(-r-) in the middle might even just be there to fill the gap between машина(mašina) and -ня(-nja).
Yet, the 1997 Serbian-Rusyn dictionary does in fact treat it as a suffix separate to -ар(-ar) and -ня(-nja), perhaps due to the productivity of unrelated Serbo-Croatian-ара / -ara. So my question is, does an -арня(-arnja) word need to not have an -ар(-ar) form in order to considered a separate formation? Are there for example any Polish words which do have an -arz form, but also have a separate -arnia form that which is considered as actually suffixed with -arnia rather than just -arz + -nia? Does it perhaps depend on the exact semantics? Insaneguy1083 (talk) 06:26, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
A cursory search has yielded me Polishowczarz and owczarnia, which are apparently considered separate at least on here. Don't mind me, I'm just thinking out loud with this one, but feel free to chime in with your thoughts. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 06:32, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
hi there, I can't seem to find the exact etymology for the word "důstojník", could anybody please help me out with this one? I can't really tell if it's just a blend of "důstojný + -ník" and even then I'm rather looking for its more exact roots. It would be very much appreciated, thank you! Tabberib (talk) 21:07, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
1) Is it obvious that this Proto-Slavic form cannot be inherited from this Proto-Balto-Slavic form? It seems that this is evident from *aśís > *ȍsь, *déśimtis > *dȅsętь (*weiśinjāˀ > **visьňa, not *višьňa). If the Proto-Indo-European form is correct, then, in my opinion, it would be necessary to inherit the form from *veiśjāˀ > *viša > Pskov dial. ви́ша (víša), Nikolaev 1986: 125. Although it can be noted that Nikolaev reconstructs how *vixja > *viša.
According to Anikin 2013: 283, there is a masculine form виш (viš) in dialects, which, as he writes, can be a reverse derivation (< вишня), but does not exclude a non-prefix formation (*višь < *veiśjas — my comment, since he means the suffix *-ьňa). Zaliznyak 2004: 266 also proposes the reconstruction *višňa, without ь, although he writes that it may be a misprint in the Old Novgorodian, however, the misprint is in a strong position ь.
2) Accentologically, Zaliznyak does not cite a paradigm, for Nikolaev it is paradigm b, although in the first form he has a typo of tone (which would speak of paradigm a), and in subsequent forms the typos are corrected manually with a pencil. It is quite possible to consider the same action as in wordform such as *vòľa > во́ля (vólja), but *ženà > жена́ (žená).
Latvian: RFV and cleanup of almost the whole etymology, though there is one source cited. Like many Latvian and Lithuanian etymologies on the wiki, it is needlessly long and complex, sloppy, and full of improper notation. More importantly, it overlays several mutually exclusive etymologies without organizing them or explaining which if any are most likely, and it is unclear what the reasons to reconstruct any of the PIE or Proto-Baltic forms are—just a confusing, self-contradictory mess that combines old and new ideas. Same issue at Jūrmala § Norwegian Bokmål, which copied the etymologies from jūra and mala but does not source them. — 2600:4808:9C31:4800:5492:574D:9227:576220:50, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
Latin. Etymology is sourced but highly suspect. Neither of the sources are reliable for PIE etymology, both copying from old works like Pokorny without a critical eye, and from a quick glance I can tell this case is no exception. *teh₂-(“to melt, trickle”) seems neither semantically nor phonetically a good match. I doubt there is a better etymology out there, but the entry should reflect that state of things. — 2600:4808:9C31:4800:5492:574D:9227:576222:23, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
Colluvium
Colluvium is used in geology and comes from collis, hill, and luvium, sediments or what washed there. Therefore, colluvium are sediments that came from uphill at the time of deposition. These sediments (usually? form a jumble of sizes contrary to alluvium that is sorted-the smaller pieces a carried further by the river… 2605:A601:AE5A:7F00:D89A:5714:A36D:C7B914:15, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
Pointing out that this isn't commonly reconstructed for Proto-West Germanic. The -sch in German is said to be influenced by Middle Dutch valsch, where the -sch is said to be analogical. Exarchus (talk) 10:33, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
This is absolute nonsense and should be deleted immediately. The word is not attested anywhere before the 12th century. The verb in German "fälschen" is older and may well be PWG, but the adjective clearly isn't. We can even in see how it spread from Dutch and West Central German eastward (namely through Veldeke, cf. Pfeifer). Generally speaking there are lots of dubious PWG entries that should be deleted. 2.207.102.11203:55, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
The origin of the the component राष्ट्र in the name महाराष्ट्र is attributed to a tribe called राष्ट्रिक; which later became राष्ट्रकूट; with an original form of Ratta. Such that:
(Unknown origin) Ratta > Sanskritized to राष्ट्र > MIA raṭṭa, raṭṭha etc.
But the origin of the word Ratta is still not known. I think it's a descendant of Hraštás. I have three reasons to posit this:
The semantic overlap between the concept of "right(side)" and "south" is well known in PIE, particularly in PIA. The Rattas were an extreme southern tribe in terms of all other Aryan tribes. It makes sense that they may identify as "South(erners)" as well. Other names for the same tribes are laṭṭa, laṭhika etc.
The connection in literature with the terms रथ, रथी, महारथी since they're basically titles and not tribe names, the lack of retroflexion also makes them much less likely as the origin.
The word did exist in Proto-Indo-Iranian but has not left a descendant in the Indo-Aryan side. I think this is actually the reason why we've ended up with the sanskritization of Ratta as "Rashtra". People in the early first millenium in India had no idea where it came from and since the word did not leave any known descendants in Sanskrit, everyone jumped to "Rashtra" as the origin of the word.
I also know that the word may possibly be Dravidian; but I did not find any precedence for my hypothesis in the literature and it fits very well.
The third point is confusing. Proto-Indo-Iranian *Hraštás has no Vedic descendant and "Ratta" has no Sanskrit etymology, native speakers naturally etymologized the name with "Rashtra", therefore a reflex of *Hraštás must be assumed. This does not explain Ratta and variants, which would be the actual question. Since Proto-Dravidian Proto-Dravidian *mic- may be rendered in Akkadian Meluḫḫa, and we know h from Sindh as well as Sinitic from /c/ it would seem that महा(mahā) only confirms the assumption of a healthy dose of folkmonomology! Sachthepupil (talk) 22:55, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
@Sachthepupil Thanks for the reply! The third point is more of a supplement from my side to suggest that if *Hraštás had survived, we'd be calling it **महारष्ट or something similar today. Since it did not survive, राष्ट्र became the go-to sanskritized version.
Coming to the second question, a descendant of *Hraštás does explain Ratta and it's variants... to at least a higher extent than राष्ट्र.
*Hraštás > **रष्ट > रट्ठ, रठ (self-explanatory)
**रष्ट > **लष्ट (r ~ l are frequently conflated in IA languages) > लट्ट, लट्ठ, लठिक
Those are all the variants I believe must be explained. Your point about Dravidian *mic is a valid etymon for the "Maha" component, not for "Ratta", which we know were defintely separate components. There is another theory with *mic as the base, as "Marahaṭṭha" is also a later attested MIA name for the region. Normally, it is explained by maharaṭṭha > (metathesis) marahaṭṭha, but it can also explained as *mēluVkku > *malaha-ṭṭha (pleonastic) > marahaṭṭha, but it is too far-fetched for me, and against current concensus that "Ratta" is a name in itself and the "maha" component was added later.
If you're unsure about the validity of ष्ट > ṭṭ, this sound change is seen with इष्टका > iṭṭā, and is apparently more common with Southern IA languages with Old Marathi सेटि (<सेट्टि< श्रेष्ठिन्). Varca mumbaikar (talk) 23:58, 1 November 2024 (UTC)